NAFPS Forum
General => Frauds => Topic started by: Barnaby_McEwan on February 17, 2005, 10:18:59 pm
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White guy selling hallucinogenic-plant experiences in Peru under the rubric of 'core-shamanism':
http://www.biopark.org/peru/team.html
Recently featured on the UK's Channel 4 'reality TV' show 'Extreme Celebrity Detox'. I'm not making this up:
http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/C/celebritydetox/
I can't wait for the follow-up programme: 'Extreme Celebrity Drug-Induced Psychotic Breakdown'. Okay, I made that one up.
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Lawler's credentials look impressive. At one time he used to do some good work as an environmentalist.
The credentials seem a lot less impressive when you notice one thing: the only degree he ever had was a BA more than 35 years ago. I wouldn't trust his knowledge about plants based on that.
Lawler does make a show of concern for safety for the tourists. After page after page of the hard sell and all kinds of mystical come-ons, he slips in a disclaimer, a warning against people precisely like him. A lot like Manataka, he's warning against frauds so as not to appear a fraud.
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The warning from one of Lawler's people:
http://www.biopark.org/peru/shamanrisks.html
Beware Charlatans, Deception, and Scam
The realm of shamanism in the Peruvian Amazon is frought with risks and dangers for the newly arrived traveler.
True shamans traditionally-trained in pure spiritual and plant healing are hard to find and rarely advertise their services to tourists. This is because one of the hallmarks of the classic shaman or curandero is their practice of healing and spiritual work within their own communities. On the other hand, most are open and receptive to anyone who comes to them with respect. It should also be understood that shamans and curanderos are professionals, make their living by performing healing and mystical services. They are therefore entitled to fair compensation for their services. The best guideline to follow is "value given for value received according to your means".
Authentic practitioners generally cannot be contacted through common tourist channels such as commercial lodges, motokar drivers, or street hustlers operating in tourist zones. Those contacted in this manner often cannot be trusted. More than a few western travelers have found their wallets emptied by "spirit hands" in the darkness of an Ayahuasca ceremony. Female participants, especially 'gringas', are sometimes sexually molested or seduced under the guise of "treatment" by inscrupulous "shamans". Sexual misconduct is the most common deviation of shamanic principles, most often perpetrated by younger men purporting to be shamans but lacking the integrity borne of sacrifice, maturity, and wisdom.
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Pt 2 of the warning:
Beware of commercial lodges offering "ayahuasca ceremonies". Most do so as a novel entertainment, with no attention to proper preparation or follow up in this delicate and serious process. This is both irresponsible and dangerous. To make matters worse, few lodge operators have ever drank Ayahuasca themselves! One should never be guided into Ayahuasca ceremonies by one unwilling to drink it with you. This is a simple and logical test of integrity.
Commercial lodges rarely employ credible shamans who know how to make and administer good Ayahuasca. In such cases, the traveler is exposed to risk of ineffective or even dangerous Ayahuasca. Without witnessing the making and some knowledge of the maker, one never knows for sure what is in the brew. Fatalities and prolonged psychological disturbance have occurred as a result of such casual encounter.
Ayahuasca is costly and time consuming (8-12 hours) to prepare correctly using the old traditional wood fire. Everyone knows the components but very few know the more subtle techniques to make high quality Ayahuasca. Furthermore, there is a broad range of quality among ayahuasca vine and chacruna leaf . These plants are now in high demand and demand is growing. The fact is, much old dry ayahuasca and weak or placebo 'chacruna' is purveyed. Only a few shamans and ethnobotanists can distinguish among types of chacruna by the leaves alone.
Careful selection of the plant constituents and detailed knowledge of the preparation process are essential to the production of high quality Ayahuasca. Most commercial enterprises offering 'ayahuasca ceremonies' as part of a entertainment tourist agenda lack the knowledge and commitment to these issues.
Brujeria - Black and Red Witchcraft
Yet another significant risk exists for the newcomer. This is the possibility of exposure to evil witchcraft, locally known as 'brujeria' or 'rojo'. This risk is very serious because brujos (evil shamans) are capable of causing great mental, physical or spiritual harm to the individual as a means of seduction, theft, scam, or even murder. They may do this for their own personal gain or for hire.
Brujos use spells and potions to gain control of their victims. This commonly produces radical, irrational, often self-destructive behavior by the victim which they perceive to be normal.
Brujos often use love magic (puzangeria) to produce the illusion of love to gain control of a victim for sex, money, or material gain. This is usually accomplished by secretly putting a 'love potion' (puzanga, a blend of rainforest plants) in the food or drink of the victim to aid hypnosis to gain control the emotions and thoughts of the victim.
Such matter-of-fact reference to witchcraft and spells may be met with some skeptism by the western mind. It is nevertheless a day-to-day reality in Amazonian culture and cannot be dismissed lightly. In the Peruvian Amazon, modern western cultural realities are largely absent. Here, much older realities prevail, and belief in the reality of both 'blancura' spiritual healing and 'rojo' black witchcraft are very strong indeed.
Trust and Confidence
Positive and constructive work with Ayahuasca requires a high level of trust among those involved. Quick attainment of trust and respect for the shamans and facilitators is essential to successful work. It is therefore vitally important to work with shamans who are positive, knowledgeable, skilled, ethical, and above moral reproach. The seeker must first ascertain if the shaman is indeed genuine, and if so, if he or she is a curandero or a brujo. One is not a "shaman" simply because they serve ayahuasca and sing a song or two in the dark. Knowledge of the character and reputation of the shaman is necessary in order to avoid misguidance, deceit, and disappointment.
A certain amount of fear and apprehension naturally accompanies an Ayahuasca initiation. These are amplified if the shamans are not fully trusted. Competent, experienced, and trusted facilitation is the safest and surest way to make the connection and move quickly into the constructive processes.
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I know about the problems associated with exploiting the traditional medicine and culture and especially those substances that can alter conciousness substantially.
But this is something we lost in the West when "the witches" were burned in the Middle ages...
I cannot embrace western rationality with open arms, but I shall open a subject to start a debate about that in more detail elsewere.
I just want to ask a question regarding this man's organisation - it looks fraudelnt and honest at the same time. I actually contacted them expressing great doubt and interest at the same time and his reply email was very warm and explanatory...
So I just want to ask - did anyone do any research on them? Gathered first-hand experiences from some participants - or did an interview with them?
Judging people and organisations just upon their web based material - especially when it cannot be interpreted as fraud only - can be misleading and unfair also.
Can you provide any more information about this organisation and prove they are not worthy?
thank you
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6kfPnNMGKA ;-)
Leonard.
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Oh my another drug addict
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yes - a lot 'out here' or claiming to seek 'Him' - just look in your local 'news-papers' at the local pharmacy robbery - I am sure that 'God' and 'truth' will show up somewhere in the 'police report' (probably 'oxycontin') - not the 'absolute truth' just an observation.
Leonard.
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'Extreme Celebrity Drug-Induced Psychotic Breakdown'.
Heeee!
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Wov!
Please - try to read more precisely and with open mind.
best to all
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB7pQpNx-F4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Xd-Iq2tN0
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From the first post;
White guy selling hallucinogenic-plant experiences in Peru under the rubric of 'core-shamanism':
AH, I posted this in another thread but it should answer your question
http://www.amazonteam.org/umiyac-declaration.html (http://www.amazonteam.org/umiyac-declaration.html)
AH
Please - try to read more precisely and with open mind.
A.H.
As Earth and I have told you , most Native traditions do not accept the use of drugs or alcohol and in fact these have cause a huge amount of damage to Native communities. Native people do not need to have an open mind towards something that is foriegn to their own traditions and has done so much damage.
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You helped me rethink some ideas but I am still searching. I belive in the openess of communication and exchanging the information and ideas. That can be cleansing an really healing. Fighting on separate sides just causes more damage.
I gained some direct information from the accused man that's why I'll post the final part of my correspondence with this man. Maybe he will answer himself if he thinks there is a need to do so.
Judging too fast is also dangerous and unfair. Your hurt should not make you hurt other people too easyly. Also "white-men" are not some amorphous homogen mass - so called western civilization is comprised of many cultures - we have suffered our wars, cultural appropriation and injustices as well... (I come from one of the smaller nations in Europe - we are 2 million only - not one of the big colonialist ones - but this is not so important)
Peace & understanding to all (new age, huh?)
:::::::::: contacting and checking Mr.Howard Lawler in person // from email correspondence :::::::::::::
Dear Howard,
thank you for your very kind and extensive reply. I am much in doubts about many things concerning spiritual path and use of entheogens. It seems very powerful and reasonable to use them, but there are just too many false and fake activities going on around that.
I can believe you have the best intentions however I did some more internet research and came across this site ( http://www.newagefraud.org/ ) and obviously indigenous people are somewhat offended by such enterprises. Especially when I read this: http://www.amazonteam.org/umiyac-declaration.html
That site also noticed you personally - I actually replyed with question to that post - partly enquireing, partly defending upon what I read from you: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=145.0
They are quite remote from my mindset (and I from theirs) and obviously they fight different battles - but they have very little approval of entheogen use - esp. under the term "shamanism"... They made some good points to think about. They are mostly North American indigenous people and I can understand their rage after all the injustice that has been done to them... and most of their people don't have a tradition of using entheogen plants so they somehow adopted the common N.American anti-drug agenda...
Maybe if you feel offended and it seems useful to answer them and clear your intentions you can, but be prepared for fierce antagonists. So you should provide them some valid facts and genuine proof about fairness of your operations. I just notify you they think you're fraud. I still don't, but since the indigenous are so defensive I will focus my intentions on something else. I'll seek answers in some other way.
Also - your programme looks sincere and worthy, but is a little too expensive - I understand its exclusiveness and good preparations, lodging, food, and fair payment for all that invest their time, but somehow I expected the figure for 7 days (the ones without traveling around) not to exceed 1000$.
I hope I haven't offended you - it was not my intention.
best regards,
Andrej
P.S. I will post your answer and my answer there - anyhow - I belive in openess of communication and if something is good it should be recognized as such and if it is really bad it should be judged as such. And if it comes out that we just have different goals and ideas that are both valid for us - we go separate ways.
Otorongo Blanco wrote:
> Dear Andrej,
>
> Thanks very much for your very nice introduction and interest in our Ayahuasca SpiritQuest Listening to the Plants shamanic healing retreats and Huachuma mesa journeys. I'm sorry to say I did not receive your first e-mail to which you refer. I am always prompt in response and appreciate that you tried again. First, let me tell you a bit more about us, our philosophy, and our work ...
>
> Ayahuasca SpiritQuest Listening to the Plants is our keystone program in the Peruvian Amazon. It is a genuine shamanic healing retreat intended to facilitate quick and deep immersion in the ancient shamanic spiritualism of the western Amazon. We conduct our works in a relaxed yet focused manner which requires serious preparation by everyone attending, with clear intent and positive goals in mind.
>
> Our work is dedicated exclusively to holistic healing and spiritual realization through a series of seriously focused and guided ceremonial experiences in true core Peruvian sacred plant shamanism. The ceremonies are surrounded by multidimensional activities designed to help you integrate these deep experiences into your daily life. It is an intense, accelerated, highly charged course in the principles and practice of ancient core shamanism in the Amazon, the Andes, and the northern coast of Perú.
>
> We are discriminating in whom we accept for participation in our work. We don't do "tours" nor is our purpose to entertain. Our work is not for casual tourists looking for a novel vacation, nor is it "ayahuasca tourism" for the seeker of experience for it's own sake. Instead we specialize in facilitating real core traditional shamanic healing and spiritual growth work which is fundamentally results-oriented rather than solely experience-centered. The positive and enduring benefits of these deep experiences in your life are what matter most. We therefore wish to invest our time and energy with those individuals who have such important motives in mind. Appropriate advance preparation is essential to realize the best results and we will assist you in this regard.
>
> Because of the delicate nature of our activities, we have an application screening procedure to help assure your safety and compatibility with our focus and activities. I will forward our application questionnaire in a separate e-mail when you confirm your desire to join in our work.
>
> A separate application is required for each person attending. Return your fully-completed questionnaire to me by e-mail a soon as possible. I'll confirm your acceptance and send our Acceptance of Terms Agreement. This document must be printed, signed and notarized. Please read and understand it carefully with special attention to the "Terms of Participation" section. Spaces are available on a first-come open-enrollment basis pending acceptance of your application.
>
> You'll find our full 2008 Calendar of Events at http://www.biopark.org/peru/schedule.html.
>
> Our Ayahuasca SpiritQuest retreats and Ancient Shamanic Knowledge Huachuma mesa works in the Amazon are limited to a maximum of twenty-four participants to assure comfort and attention to personal needs. Our usual group size averages 10-14 but we conduct our scheduled works no matter how few may be in attendance.
>
> Our venue is the spiritually-inspired SpiritQuest Shamanic Sanctuary, an extraordinary rainforest ceremonial retreat center exclusively dedicated to holistic healing and higher consciousness. It is located on a private 250-acre old-growth Amazonian rainforest reserve teeming with medicinal and other useful plants, diverse wildlife, and the legendary spirits of the Amazon. The SSS is the perfect place to encounter deep healing and spiritual realization through communion with the sacred plants and impeccable company in intimate contact with nature and cosmos. Incorporating the ancient sacred geometry of the circle and the pyramid, the ceremonial maloca is itself a vehicle of higher consciousness. Here, spiritual love, compassion, and natural beauty combining to produce the perfect ambience for deep personal shamanic healing and spiritual realization.
>
> Our message speaks from the heart and from ancient wisdom which we readily share with those who can come honest and sincere with themselves and others. We are for real and expect you to be also. Our work stands apart from all the others in the depth of our experience and knowledge in the practice of core shamanism, our impeccable integrity, disciplined training, and sincere intention to help others realize the highest potential of this work. There is much more to this than what's in the cup, and we'll help you realize it in ways few can. Our work always emphasizes quality over quantity and is designed and intended for the sophisticated seeker of shamanic healing transformation. Your cup will runneth over here.
>
> Don Rober Acho Jarama is the incredible maestro ayahuasquero with whom we conduct our Ayahuasca work. Don Rober is a marvelously gifted native healer of integrity possessing rich knowledge of ancient jungle medicine stemming from over over 50 years of experience in traditional shamanic plant spirit healing.
>
> Don Rober is a genuine banco ayahuasquero, accomplished at the highest level of the art. He is a consummate shamanic ceremonialist who will leave you in awe after each ceremony. You will find him to be a wonderful, humble, and truly gifted human being wholly dedicated to healing in the pure Amazon shamanic tradition. Don Rober is truly a classic maestro ayahuasquero of the oldest and highest order.
> You'll find more about him at http://www.biopark.org/peru/maestros.html .
>
> I have practiced traditional core shamanism for over 40 years, and over that time have initiated many hundreds of people in traditional ceremonial sacred plant shamanism. My shamanic practice is rooted in the ancient art of the Chavín huachuma mesa. The Chavín huachuma mesa is the most sophisticated and advanced sacred plant ceremonial practice known in the Andes and coastal Perú, predating the Inca by over 2,500 years. The extraordinary Chavín culture, founded over 3,500 years ago, is recognized as the cradle of Andean civilization. And the genesis of Andean civilization was the Chavin huachuma mesa ceremonies at Chavin de Huantar.
>
> The Chavin mesa is among the most profound spiritual practices known to mankind. Huachuma is a sacred teacher healer plant of the Peruvian Andes and coast. It has been used as a central sacrament and healing medicine in ancient Peruvian cultures for three millennia. It is equal to Ayahuasca in it's healing and teaching power and it's benevolent and wise masculine energy is a perfect catalyst for the powerful feminine energy of Ayahuasca. These may be done independently, or they may be done synergistically in succession, preferably starting first with Ayahuasca. Both are always properly done in a traditional ritual ceremony guided by a maestro with many years experience with sacred plants and sacred energy.
>
> You'll find out more about us at http://www.biopark.org/peru/team.html and http://www.biopark.org/peru/maestros.html . Don Rober and I represent over 80 years of combined experience in the practice of the shamanic healing arts. Unlike many others, we are not newcomers to this work. We will guide you through the joys and challenges of the spirit plant shamanic path, and the rewarding integration of which follows, amplifying your relationship with nature, cosmos, and all humanity through your deep connection with the profound spiritual essence of ancient Perú.
>
> You'll realize deep cleansing, holistic healing, positive and enduring transformation, and personal empowerment if you are willing to do your part. You'll need to bring a bit of faith, some strength of will, a dash of courage, all your integrity, and most of all, sincere love, compassion and good intentions for yourself and others. These are the foundations of our work, and the Whole is always greater than the sum of it's parts.
>
> Group size for the Ayahuasca SpiritQuest, Ayahuasca Odyssey and Huachuma Serpent Mesa works in the Amazon is limited to twenty-four people, though our groups are usually smaller. Group size for the Huachuma Journey Through Time to Chavín de Huántar is limited to fourteen
>
> I will be happy to assist in your travel planning and retreat preparations in every way possible, including airline reservations for flights within Perú.
>
> You'll find more information about our work, and how to prepare and participate by following the provided links on our website.
>
> NOTE: If the links in this e-mail don't work just cut and paste them into your browser address bar.
>
> Ayahuasca SpiritQuest: Listening to the Plants
> ~ program introduction with abundant onsite links ~
> http://www.biopark.org/peru/ayahuasca-spiritquest.html
>
> registration cost for 7 days/nights with three Ayahuasca ceremonies is US$1,599
> Registration cost for 8 days/nights with four Ayahuasca ceremonies is US$1,749 (March, April, May, and November only)
> Registration includes lodging and meals at the SpiritQuest Sanctuary shamanic retreat and healing center, airport pickup, local ground and water transportation, materials and medicines, three/four Ayahuasca ceremonies, personal shamanic counseling and consultation, and group integrative activities.
>
> NOT INCLUDED: airfare, airport taxes, restaurant meals away from the retreat, tips, travel insurance and personal items
>
> Please read our statement of purpose on the mother page and follow all the links for specific retreat information.
>
> Introduction - http://www.biopark.org/peru/spiritquest-introduction.html
> Disclaimer - http://www.biopark.org/peru/spiritquest-disclaimer.html
> Agenda and Accommodations - http://www.biopark.org/peru/agenda.html
> Retreat Facilities: http://www.biopark.org/peru/retreat-facilities.html
> Facilitators - http://www.biopark.org/peru/team.html
> Maestros and Curanderos - http://www.biopark.org/peru/maestros.html
> 2007 Workshop dates - http://www.biopark.org/peru/schedule.html
> Cost and Terms - http://www.biopark.org/peru/sqcost-terms.html
> Gear, Health, and Travel recommendations - http://ww.biopark.org/peru/tobring.html
> Alumni Comments and Testimonials - http://www.biopark.org/peru/sq-testimonials.html
> Health and Medication Precautions - http://www.biopark.org/peru/ayamed-precautions.html
> Diet Guidelines and Ceremonial Protocol - http://www.biopark.org/peru/sqcleansing-01.html
> More on Food and Drug Precautions - http://www.biopark.org/peru/sqcleansing-02.html
>
> An additional shamanic retreat of 7 days/7 nights
> at SpiritQuest Shamanic Sanctuary ceremonial retreat center ...
> Ancient Shamanic Knowledge
> Extraordinary Huachuma Serpent Mesa Initiations in the Powers of theThree Elements in the Amazon ~ The Roots of Chavín
> Birthing in the Verdant Womb of Mother Earth
> Realizing the Union of Earth and Cosmos
> registration cost for 7 days/nights is US$1,399* following most Ayahuasca SpiritQuest retreats in the Amazon
> * special discounted registration for those also attending Ayahuasca SpiritQuest is just US$1,249 *
>
> The central focus of ASK is three extraordinarily enlightening Huachuma (aka San Pedro) Serpent Mesa works in the ancient Chavín style conducted by the maestro huachumero Don Choque Chinchay amidst the earthly natural power and verdant splendor of the Peruvian Amazon rainforest. The three Mesas of the Serpent will engage the healing power and profoundly organic teachings of the great elemental mother spirits of the Amazon ... the Yacumama, mother of the rivers; the Sachamama, mother of the forest; and the Huayramama, mother of the air.
>
> The SpiritQuest Shamanic Sanctuary is a spiritually-inspired shamanic ceremonial retreat center dedicated to holistic healing and higher consciousness. It's metaphysical design, powerful spiritual energy, warm and sincere fellowship, and intimate proximity to old-growth rainforest and serpentine rivers makes it the perfect place to heal thyself, transform your life, and commune with the spirits of nature and cosmos. This is the best venue for deep and productive personal huachuma mesa work to be found anywhere.
>
> Combined with Ayahuasca SpiritQuest, ASK provides a full two weeks (14 days/14 nights) of dynamic multi-dimensional exploration of Life, Spirit, Consciousness, Healing and Transformation in the heart of the Peruvian Amazon with traditional shamanic healer-teacher-allies of South America. The synergy between these ancient holistic shamanic medicines is powerful and transformative. It has been called "The Holy Grail of Chavin". And indeed it is. The Whole is truly greater than the sum of the parts. There is no better opportunity available anywhere for this kind of work.
>
> Introduction - http://www.biopark.org/peru/sq-extension.html
> ASK agenda - http://www.biopark.org/peru/sq-extension-agenda.html
>
> Spiritness, Clarity, Truth, Healing, and Inner Peace can be realized through the profound healing and instruction of the Huachuma Mesa. You need only bring noble intention, an open heart, a willingness to set aside judgement of yourself and others, and a sincere desire to experience the Divine.
>
> We will safely escort you into the spiritual world of traditional Peruvian magico-religious sacred plant shamanism. You will realize remarkable benefits and experiences if you come holistically prepared, as well-informed as possible, and willing to set aside conventional western paradygms for a week or two and engage new ways of perceiving the worlds within and around you.
>
> Here are links on our website to more about the nature of El Gran Maestro Huachuma and the ancient Peruvian mesa tradition ...
>
> Huachuma ~ San Pedro Introduction - http://www.biopark.org/peru/huachuma.html
> More about Huachuma - http://www.biopark.org/peru/huachuma-02.html
> San Pedro, Peyote and Mescaline: A Visionary Catalyst for Healing - http://www.biopark.org/peru/mescaline-healing.html
> An Expanding Bibliography of Huachuma, San Pedro, and Mesa Shamanism - http://www.biopark.org/peru/huachuma-reading.html with hard-to-find articles on Andean cosmology and traditional mesa practice, from the Chavin Huachuma Temple of the Jaguar to contemporary syncretic San Pedro Mesa ...
>
> MESA INITIATION JOURNEYS AND RETREATS IN PERU with Maestro Chavín Huachumero don Choque Chinchay ...
>
> Andean Huachuma Pilgrimage to Machu Picchu - http://www.biopark.org/peru/machu/machu-huachuma.html
> Huachuma Mesa Journey Through Time to Chavin de Huantar - http://www.biopark.org/peru/machu/huachuma-huancabamba.html
>
> 2008
> Special Events
>
> ~ Solstice Ayahuasca Odyssey ~
> Old-Fashioned Shamanic Revival Celebrations
> of Life, Spirit, Healing, Transformation, and New Beginnings
> with five extraordinary Ayahuasca ceremonies conducted in the Lamista tradition by don Rober Acho and allies
> ~ June 15 - 25, 2008 ~ June Solstice Ayahuasca Odyssey ~
> ~ August 10-20, 2008 ~ Ayahuasca Odyssey Platinum ~
> Ayahuasca Odyssey 10 day/night registration cost is US$2,099
> not including roundtrip airfare Lima-Iquitos-Lima (currently $210)
> ~ Extraordinary 10-day shamanic celebrations of life, nature, healing and rebirth ...
> ... with enriched activity agenda and five powerfully healing Ayahuasca ceremonies...
> Solstice Ayahuasca Odyssey Introduction - http://www.biopark.org/peru/millennium-spiritquest.html
> Solstice Ayahuasca Odyssey Agenda - http://www.biopark.org/peru/millennium-agenda.html
> Solstice Ayahuasca Odyssey Cost and Terms - http://www.biopark.org/peru/millennium-cost-terms.html
> Attendance limited to twenty persons in luxury double-occupancy accommodations
>
> The Huachuma Mesa Pilgrimage Through Time
> to the sacred Huachuma Temple of Divine Love at Chavín de Huantar
> A supremely mystical spiritual journey through Time and Space
> exploring the land, world view, and shamanic cosmology
> of the pre-Incan Sicán-Lambayeque, Moche and Chavín cultures...
> with incredibly ascending and transformative Huachuma Mesa works in the Chavín tradition
> at some of the most powerful sacred places in South America.
> The Huachuma Pilgrimage Through Time really is the supreme shamanic experience in Peru!
> ~ http://www.biopark.org/peru/machu/huachuma-huancabamba.html ~
>
> Huachuma Mesa Pilgrimages in 2008
> *Registration does not include one-way airfare Lima-Chiclayo of $115
>
> January Solstice 2008
>
> *14 days with five stunning Huachuma mesa ceremonies at the most powerful huacas in Perú
> ~ **January 12-26, 2008 ~
> (14 days/5 mesas)
> **This special New Year's Huachuma Journey Through Time includes 5 profoundly illuminating,
> deeply healing, and positively transformative Huachuma mesa works
> 14 days/5 mesas ~ registration cost US$1,999
>
> April-May Equinox 2008
>
> *12 days with five stunning Huachuma mesa ceremonies at the most powerful huacas in Perú
>
> ~ April 29-May 13, 2008 ~
>
> (Special Event ~ 14 days/nights with five mesa ceremonies - $1,999)
>
>
>
> July Solstice 2008
>
> *10 days with four incredible Huachuma mesa ceremonies at the most powerful huacas in Perú
>
> ~ July 8-18, 2008 ~
>
> (Special Event ~ 10 days/nights with four mesa ceremonies - $1,649)
>
>
>
> September Equinox 2008
>
> *16 days including six stellar Huachuma mesa ceremonies
>
> at the most powerful huacas in Perú
>
> ~ September 22-October 7 2008 ~
>
> (Special Event ~ 16 days/nights with six mesa ceremonies - $2,149)
>
>
>
> January Solstice 2009
>
> Huachuma Mesa Journey Through Time to Chavín de Huántar
>
> The supreme shamanic experience in Perú
>
> with five incredible Huachuma mesa ceremonies at the most powerful huacas in Perú
>
> ~ January 12-28, 2009 ~
>
> (Special Event ~ 14 days/nights with five Huachuma mesa ceremonies - $1,999
>
>
>
> with stunning Huachuma Mesa works at the ancient Lambayeque and Moche pyramids of Túcume and El Brujo on the northern coast,
> the supreme Chavin Mesa of Transformation at the "mother" of all Mesas - the incredible 3,200 year old Huachuma temple at Chavín de Huántar,
> and the climactic Mesa of Heaven's Gate at celestial Laguna Chinalcocha in the Cordillera Blanca.
>
> Participation is limited to twelve pilgrims of warm and stout heart, adventurous spirit, relaxed traveling style, and sharing tolerant nature.
> You must be willing and able to work compatibly within a coordinated group framework as well as individually.
> Alcohol consumption is abstained during the course of this work to optimize the opening of consciousness.
>
> The Huachuma Mesa Journey Through Time is at times challenging on many levels and is not for everyone.
> We will engage magical dimensions in time and space which may be disturbing for those unprepared to See Truth.
> It is highly recommended for those sincerely seeking powerful core shamanic experience of the highest magnitude.
>
> Application screening is required. References available on request.
>
> Group size is limited to fourteen. Minimum group size is 6.
>
> ~ Inkan Huachuma Pilgrimage ~
> ~ with the Q'ero shamans and curanderas in the Sacred Valley and on to Machu Picchu ~
> Communing with the Spirits of Nature and Cosmos in the southern Andes at the Navel of Pachamama
> featuring stunning Puma and Condor Huachuma mesa works
> and a heartwarming despacho ceremony of burnt offering to Pachamama guided by the Q'ero shamans
> from the sacred apus of the southern Andes
> - http://www.biopark.org/peru/machu/machu-huachuma.html -
> ~ June 30-July 8, 2008 ~
> The registration cost is US$1,699 for 7 days/7 nights
> NOT INCLUDED: Roundtrip airfare from Lima to Cuzco (US$230), airport taxes, meals, tips, travel insurance and personal items.
> - A shamanic journey to ancient sacred sites of the Inca in the Andes from Cuzco through the Sacred Valley to legendary Machu Picchu -
>
> We'll begin our pilgrimage with a heartwarming despacho ceremony of burnt offering to Pachamama (Mother Earth)
> led by the legendary Q'ero shamans, the living descendants of the Inca. Our Q'ero 'waikis' are dear personal friends of many years.
> They are incredibly warm and loving people of the Earth who live in the high Apus, the sacred peaks of the Inca.
>
> We will share the sacred communion of the Huachuma Misa
> at two of the southern Andes' great centers of spiritual power, the Puma Mesa at Chinchero
> and the Condor Mesa at legendary Machu Picchu.
>
> Group size is limited to fourteen.
> Full registration payment by bank cashiers' check, money order, or bank wire transfer is due 45 days before the starting date to assure ample time for preparation and travel arrangements. Since space is limited for each event, it is a good idea to register well in advance to assure your spaces for the dates you desire. Late registration may be accepted if there are no health or medication/drug issues which might affect your safety in working with Ayahuasca. Enrollment is accepted on a first-come basis pending application clearance. Acceptance is not guaranteed until your application have been reviewed.
>
> Our work is honest, profound, intimate, intense, highly transcultural, and deeply personal. It is rooted in genuine cofraternity and human rapport. So don't hesitate to contact us with questions or to get acquainted.
>
> The Ayahuasca SpiritQuest, Ancient Shamanic Knowledge, and Ayahuasca Odyssey in the Amazon, and the Andean Huachuma journeys are very special opportunities to immerse oneself in the land, mind, and timeless shamanic cosmology of ancient Perú. Our core shamanic work is deep, powerful, masterful and sincere ... from the heart. We've refined it over many years and you'll find none better anywhere.
>
> We have created a stellar opportunity for those seeking the highest quality initiation in pure core Peruvian shamanism in a safe environment accompanied by people of experience, knowledge and integrity. We'd be pleased to have you with us and I look forward to hearing from you soon.
>
> Blessings and best wishes,
>
> Howard
>
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From the UMIYAC Statement in the link that is posted above;
Many of them profane our culture and our territories by commercializing yagé and other plants; dressing like Indians and acting like charlatans. We see with concern that a new type of tourism is being promoted which deceives the foreigners with so-called "services of Taitas or shamans" in a number of villages of the foothills. Indeed, even some of our own indigenous brothers do not respect the value or our medicine and go around misleading people, selling our symbols in towns and cities.
What I noticed is this response didn't once mention the Yurayaco Declaration of the Union de Medicos Indigenas Yageceros de la Amazonia Colombiana (UMIYAC), or their concerns, or how Don Rober Acho Jarama was connected this Union. Instead his response sounded like a long winded sales pitch.
Is this information somewhere and I missed it?
It is a genuine shamanic healing retreat intended to facilitate quick and deep immersion in the ancient shamanic spiritualism of the western Amazon.
It sounds like the recognized Taitas feel this medicine might have a legitimate role in the healing of people outside their culture, but this "quick immersion" idea also put me off.
From the UMIYAC statement;
# The Taitas agree to initiate a process of certification of practicing healers and establish our own code of indigenous medical ethics. In this way it will be able to distinguish between real Taitas and charlatans.
# We are also willing to travel in order to bring the benefits of our medicine to indigenous communities in Colombia and other parts of America upon request. Conscious of the fact that non-Indians also need our services as doctors, we propose the construction of Indigenous Medicine Clinics so they may have easier access and in conditions better suited to the way in which we work, always closely linked to nature.
# The Taitas present at the Gathering have decided to formally create the Union of Traditional Yagé Healers of the Colombian Amazon (UMIYAC) and name our own representatives to carry out the various tasks to which we are committed and to represent us before the world, governments and other institutions.
If people from outside the culture can be helped by the use of Yage' I doubt reducing their culture to what a tourist could be quickly immersed in, or claiming this quick immersion is "deep", is the way the traditional Taitas would want to provide this assistance.
But I don't know anything about this culture so I can only judge by what was said in the UMIYAC declaration and what is considered respectful in the cultures I am more familiar with.
Maybe the thing to do would be to try and see if there is a way to contact UMIYAC and ask them if it might be appropriate for someone with your needs to use this medicine and their cultural knowledge. If it maybe, you could ask them who you could contact for further assistence.
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You said "Fighting on separate sides just causes more damage."
This is simply not so. Sometimes one of the sides is just plain wrong. This was true of Hitler, true of those who did not think women should be allowed to vote, and true of those who resisted giving civil rights to African-Americans. It is just as true now of people who want to dupe you out of your money by talking a lot of mumbo jumbo about Native Americans and spirituality.
I am whiter than a dead fish's belly, but I have learned enough about religious exploitation to (often) know it when I see it--and I see it here. The reply you post is so full of buzzwords I am at a complete loss as to what any of it is supposed to mean. I really am--and I have a master's degree in English.
I personally don't care what substance you choose to put in your body. It's the context--by which I mean the purchased, fake, cultural context--that pisses me off.
Assuming that there is a "spiritual world of traditional Peruvian magico-religious sacred plant shamanism" (whatever that means), you ain't gonna get there "safely." Ever. Period. Anything worth doing involves risk and sacrifice. To my mind, the mark of the fraud is that he or she denies risk and instead offers you a shortcut that requires your only sacrifice to be that of parting with your dollars. This is true of frauds and cults of any stripe--Christian, Hindu, Pagan, what have you.
I wish you well on your search.
Laurel
PS--What did the questionnaire ask? Very curious about that. I also wonder what on earth is meant by "tradtitional core shamanism" since AFAIK the term "core shamanism" was invented by Michael Harner rather less than 40 years ago.
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Andrej, what Howard Lawler sent you was virtually nothing except one long sales pitch. "Don't worry, trust us, buy now, act quickly, space is limited." He did everything but tell you "buy one get one free."
I wonder how anyone could trust someone whose main intention is clearly to make money, and lots of it, while still somehow bizarrely maintaining his intent is spiritual.
I also don't see a single sign that anyone Native, outside of one person who is described as a "shaman", is benefitting. Lawler shows every sign of holding onto every dollar and euro, and giving nothing back.
Regardless of whether or not the people who go there get harmed, or are receiving anything remotely close to actual Native traditions in South America, that "retreat" does not do anything except make white Europeans and Americans feel good for a weekend or a few weeks.
I always wonder this: why do so many white Europeans feel that somehow they just have to become a "shaman"? Why can't you simply learn what Native spiritual beliefs are, and Native ethics?
I've read works by great Jewish authors like Elie Wiesel. But no way would I think that I somehow have to go out and become a rabbi or perform circumcisions. And that's not even mentioning the dangers if someone were to teach me the wrong way to do a circumcision....
A bit part of what we object to is not only when frauds "play Indian" but also when white outsiders feel they have to "play shaman." Is it some misguided messiah complex? Can't you be happy learning to be a good person?
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Thank you all. I read a lot on this forum and also outside it about you and now understand the circumstances that started it a little better.
I entered this forum quite clumsy and also stumbled on this Mr.Leonard that was very quick with insulting and dismissing and also took conversation too much on the "drugs" side - it is not that simple and I wanted to address other things.
I came here because I am wary of new-age frauds but am interested in some of the practices bordering on it...
Regarding that Lawler offer - I decided not to take part of that. I am also not that wealthy - but even if I was...
My thinking was - that despite all this salesmanship that I noticed and also bothered me - they still work together with indigenous people and somehow behind that I sensed sincere aims... Irrationally.
But quite high price seem dubious... If someone offers you lodging, food, attention - it is understandable they charge something - but maybe they demand too much.
I don't want to be too quick with accusations but am very wary. I offered them a chance to answer themselves. You have more rights to judge than I, I guess.
There is a fine line between noble quest and exploatation. I know.
Playing "Indians" or "shaman" was never my goal. I read a lot about ayahuasca and because of my "psychological" needs I saw it as a valuable chance of healing. Not to become a shaman, but to experience competent indigenous healing that I belive has value. I don't regard this as a quick fix... It sure is quick in timing - but quick as eating an Aspirin and having doctor treat you and afterwards you are healty for some time... I don't want to simplify ayahuasca rituals with saying that, but they are used also exactly for that - for psyhological renewal and cleansing. Surely better than "prozac" or something like that. I hope this is not trivial and not taking it out of context.
After reading some more I realized that your situation is more complex and vulnerable - ofcourse you have the right to fight cultural colonisation. And my inqueries clashed with that a little or a lot.
There are models of interchanging "goods" fairly I guess but internet is really a tricky and manipulative mean of communication...
I will just give one in my opinion good example of cross-cultural exchange.
You probably know about all that indian classical music (real India) hype that started in the 60', but it is also totally valid to appreciate it - because it is one of the great world traditions. But there were many rock-star clumsy efforts that trivialized it somehow.
Now years later - totally disconnected from that era I know of a valid indian master tabla teacher that teaches indian rhythmic systems that are one of the most advanced on Earth. This knowledge is valuable to all serious musicians - wether they play piano or drum-set or violin or flute, etc.
What he does and how the western students understand his teachings in a proper and respectful way is that he does not teach you indian instruments if you won't delve into that for years and become master of indian classical music but teaches you logic of composing, dividing, practicing rhythms - gives you a system and knowledge that you can incorporate in your own music or tradition.
And the students don't claim to be indian classical masters or anything but just learn very valuable rhythmic knowledge.
That is sharing specific culture's knowledge with the rest and if someone in the process discovers that he really can and want to delve deeper - the opportunity is there.
Indigenous people have among many other things rich knowledge about plants and some also about specific psychological treatments that can be shared with the nervous civilization. But reciprocal. And not in a form of fake mimicking, but communicating the systems of knowledge and techniques that can be applyed also outside that culture. Probably not as claiming it is real "shamanism" and such - but use similar plants and similar techniques of applying them. That is also why I am wary when I hear such offers - but this is for most of us the only contact we can make with something like that.
We all use some inventions that were invented in some other cultures, read philosphy and literature from other countries but we don't claim to BE that culture.
best regards
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A bit part of what we object to is not only when frauds "play Indian" but also when white outsiders feel they have to "play shaman." Is it some misguided messiah complex? Can't you be happy learning to be a good person?
A very good point and one that I thought over many times when I was younger and knew even less what are all those questions bothering me. I don't know much how your culture deals with such thoughts if they occur at all because you have different & probably more balanced social values system? I am now learning how to be a good person for 33 years. And I live a normal life of musician and audio engineer.
But the questions about "what this ALL around me really IS and means" keep coming back and cause physically felt depression. Western system has no real answers. Psychological treatment is still quite primitive and can mostly deal in a very crude way with serious deformations of mind. I've had contact with it in my teenage years when those questions became more disturbing for me. They didnt' know what to do. I was left alone and through reading much western and eastern philosophy found some comfort.
Now, I realize tha I am writing too much about me and this forum is not about "meet the wierdos" - but I guess that such conditions lie beneath many of those new-age enterprises or at least the victims and followers of them. Some are even not harmful, just funny, studpid or meaningless.
When the damage is done to your culture because of that - it is right to fight against it.
I don't know how you operate nowadays - actually you stirred the interest for your culture and current social and political situation. I will research some more.
I know you are surrounded by one of the most powerful and agressive countries in the world. I don't know what actions and possibilities you have to gain back more land and rights.
I don't know how far the integration went. I see you use internet, etc. I don't know what are the wishes and goals of your communities - return to more traditional life or be more fairly incorporated in the western world?
How do those two worlds co-exist in everyday practise? How is the history tought in USA? Do they acknowledge the injustice done to the indigenous or are the colonial explorers still regarded as heroes only? Or do they simply remain silent about that?
Are there any actions to regain at least more substantial part of the land - I guess USA won't go away, current owners won't easyly succumb. I understand that history has been made and that noone would ever want to return let's say: Manhattan...
But what is the situation? Do they still try to impose Christianity while setting up some dubious charity? Do they provide education but mix it with accepting their cultural values?
Do you have to deal mostly with racism or patronizing approach?
I don't know all that. I will check what I can.
There are practically no media reports about N.American indigenous nowadays apart from those fake ones (at least not around here where I live). Like you are extinct already.
Some years ago I wanted to hear some authentic N.A. indigenous music (my interest is in different musical traditions of the world apart from being into experimental jazz and have interest in western classical music).
You know how hard it is to find anything authentic and not washed over with cheesy new-age sounds and flutes, etc. ? I finally found some recordings from Smithsonian institute to be able to hear how your old songs & drums actually sound.
So - all this writing is aimed at one thing - fight new-age fraud, but don't disregard something more there might be collectively important to the whole mankind. Now that I know just a little more about your situation I see that your priorities must be on the first front of fighting - especially being surrounded by a culture that is synonymous for greed, kitch, materialism and cultural hegemony... And its president having mouth full of "new-agey" catholic christianity... and not practising its most important moral value: don't kill! And ofcourse not the slightest trace of "christian" forgiveness...
Just for the end: the cure they would give to a seeker without answers here is some anti-depressant drug that makes you sick and dumb. As I read ayahuasca operates on totally different level and without those side-effects. On contrary - it supposedly makes your mind clearer not dumber as those western medicines. If this is so - this is a gift to the world that should be used with proper care but it would be very good if it could be available to everyone who might need it. And actually it is available "underground" in its "technical" form - ingredients and a recipe - but it is illegal.
And also I don't regard the curanderos' treatment as a sort of invaluable exotic mumbo-jumbo while medicine makes its own way anyway. I belive they know how to use it properly and that is the only reason I seek contact with them. Otherwise I would just get the ingredients and experiment myself - with all the possible risk.
Seeing broader picture with an aid of entheogens doesn't make you a messiah or shaman - I hope it makes you a better and more balanced human being...
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I know Howard.
I did a two week retreat in the Amazon in 2003. Ayahuasca and huachuma. You all bring up a lot of valid points. But it appears that none of you have ever met him. He is a white man and will continue to be so for the forseeable future. So the question is whether a white man, or woman for that matter, can be involved in peruvian shamanism in a meaningful way. I think about it a lot. I live in Peru about 3 months a year. I see a lot of the questionable type of "vision quest/psychotropic journey tourism happening not just in the Amazon but in Cusco as well. I have to say that compared to most of what I have seen since my 2003 experience, Howard Lawler represents a beacon of respectability and integrity in a vast ocean of charlatans both peruvian and other.
I have a background in traditional Tibetan Buddhism since 1982. That was the perspective I brought with me in 2003.
For what it's worth.
Howard's personal connection to his own practice appears to be genuine. His connection to his teachers and Shamans appears to be genuine. He is extremely knowledgeable and shares that knowledge in an unassuming way.
He is most valuable as an intermediary between cultures, that of the Shaman and that of the Euro/ American.
When we Euro/americans embark on this kind of journey we have to get rid of a whole lot of preconceived notions while at the same time becoming as informed as possible about the context we are entering into, if we want to have a hope of having some kind of meaningful experience. Howard Does a lot to prepare people ahead of time long before they ever leave home. I could go on and on about what he does for his clients but suffice it to say that he does not lack in accountability toward them.
In the Amazon location he works with the Yahua and Bora tribes. In the past he has successfully fundraised and procured community boats and a medical outpost for more immediate care of malaria and the like. Many tribes members participate in the ceremonies at no cost to them. I feel that my experience with Howard and his shamans gave me a basic grounding in the language, culture and pespective of modern day Ayahuasca shamanism, a point of departure for further exploration.
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I know Howard.
I did a two week retreat in the Amazon in 2003. Ayahuasca and huachuma. You all bring up a lot of valid points.
1. But it appears that none of you have ever met him.
2. He is a white man and will continue to be so for the forseeable future. So the question is whether a white man, or woman for that matter, can be involved in peruvian shamanism in a meaningful way.
3. I think about it a lot. I live in Peru about 3 months a year. I see a lot of the questionable type of "vision quest/psychotropic journey tourism happening not just in the Amazon but in Cusco as well. I have to say that compared to most of what I have seen since my 2003 experience, Howard Lawler represents a beacon of respectability and integrity in a vast ocean of charlatans both peruvian and other.
4. Howard's personal connection to his own practice appears to be genuine. His connection to his teachers and Shamans appears to be genuine. He is extremely knowledgeable and shares that knowledge in an unassuming way.
5. He is most valuable as an intermediary between cultures, that of the Shaman and that of the Euro/ American.
6. In the Amazon location he works with the Yahua and Bora tribes. In the past he has successfully fundraised and procured community boats and a medical outpost for more immediate care of malaria and the like.
7. Many tribes members participate in the ceremonies at no cost to them.
8. I feel that my experience with Howard and his shamans gave me a basic grounding in the language, culture and pespective of modern day Ayahuasca shamanism, a point of departure for further exploration.
Hope you don't mind, but I added numbers to your words so it would be clear what points you said that I was answering.
1. This is a common excuse or defense used by exploiters, frauds, or those who have commercialized spiritual traditions, which you are repeating. They make the bizarre claim that you have to have met someone to be able to say if they are not what they claim to be.
By that same standard, no one could criticize any con man or anyone who commercialized any spiritual tradition. A Christian couldn't criticize a department store owner who had commercialized Christmas if they had not met them, for example.
2. It tends to be white outsiders who, so used to race being the standard for everything, want to make race the issue, when the real issue is that they are from outside the culture. Their (and your) attempts to appropriate the cultural traditions alter, damage, or even destroy precisely what you claim to find so valuable.
Hasn't it occurred to you that by bringing huge sums of cash into the picture, offering dozens of kinds of allegedly authentic retreats, and advertising not just on the internet but even peddling his services to "reality" television....
...that practice you claim to value has been greatly altered, crassly, and obviously for huge sums of money?
After all, Lawler's response to criticism was nothing more than a big long winded sales pitch? Shouldn't that tell you, money is his biggest concern? Not spiritual traditions.
3. That others are even worse isn't much of an excuse.
4. He may appear so to you. But then how much did you actually know?
Were you raised in the culture of tribes who perform ayahuasca ceremonies? Obviously not, or you would not have paid big money for Lawler.
Actual healers in the Amazon have denounced the commercialism and exploitation of Lawler and others like him.
5. "Shaman" is not a culture. It's an outsider's term.
6. This is something I am truly interested in seeing evidence of. Do you have any proof of that, besides your own word, or his?
I also would like to know just what percentage of his huge moneymaking business goes back into the tribes.
7. Oh come on. Do you seriously expect us to believe that tribal members go to an outsider for ceremony?
More likely, they were people who were brought in to convince you of the alleged authenticity of the ceremony. It's quite common for tourists like yourselves to be unable to tell the difference between mestizos and Natives. Many of the alleged "shamans" or curanderos who peddle "spiritual tourism" in Latin America are mestizos passing as Indian.
So they might not have even been tribal members, or at least knowledgable or ethical ones. Unless you know the language and knew people within the community beforehand, how would you even know?
8. In two weeks? That's incredibly naive, not to mention incredibly dangerous.
Would you trust an alleged doctor who said they had taken a two week medical course? Would you trust any kind of medical professional who naively thought two weeks was enough for "grounding"? I wouldn't let someone like that treat my dog or even a pet goldfish.
And again, why do you feel the need to set yourself up as a white guy becoming an Indian shaman? Why can't outsiders to Native cultures just be satisfied with learning to be a good person?
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Dear educated indian,
Beginning with your last comment, I do not see how I am setting myself up as a shaman at all.
I am offering myself up as someone who has actually been to one of Howard's retreats.
You also assume I am a white male. That's very interesting to me.
Do you really think that everyone interested in experiencing psychotropic plants, necesarrily considers themselves a shaman?
Is there not a single one among them who is merely trying to be a good person?
How could you know?
The same way you think you know I am a "white guy" trying to pass myself off as a shaman?
This is the first time I have ever been on any forum about anything.
I thought that since there is a whole section devoted to the name"Howard Lawler" the discussion just would'nt be complete without the experience of someone who has actually met the man.
But apparently it is only useful as target practice to keep those whom you perceive to be uppity "white guys, passing themselves off as shamans", in their place.
You have no idea who I am. You don't know my age my sex my race, my nationality, my background, my education or my integrity.
PS your user name suggests that you are an educated person from the country of India.
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PS your user name suggests that you are an educated person from the country of India.
(emphasis mine)
... only if you haven't spent much time around Native Americans and other Indigenous folks.
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It's a good rule of thumb that all advertising should be analyzed with all of one's critical thinking faculties.
The ADVERTISER, not the skeptic, bears the burden of proof to show that his claims are legitimate.
I've just posted new links about Ayahuasca tourism on my site. There is a very good video put out by Jeronime M. Munoz - someone who came over from the exploiter side and speaks very honestly about his former errors in thinking. It's very interesting to look at his evolution in thinking.
However, he does drop a lot of F-bombs when he tells his story. Naturally, people who don't want to hear what he has to saw are constructing red herrings about his tendency to do this. (Being a card carrying member of the ACLU I support an artists decision to drop F-bombs if he feels they are necessary to get his point across)
I think he makes all the points that the indigenous elders would make in a fairly accessible format (without the F-bombs of course)
The link is here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1471567783918794440&q=Jer%C3%B3nimo+M.M&ei=eSFlSI7-OoyErgPh0oCfAw&hl=en
<embed id="VideoPlayback" style="width:400px;height:326px" allowFullScreen="true" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=1471567783918794440&hl=en&fs=true" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> </embed>
He links to this forum too!
Have a great weekend everybody. Remember to get off the computer and speak with the 3 D ppl and learn a little bit of your language today!
Heather
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bfl, once again, you assumed that this is all about "race". None of us did, including me.
I went out of my way to say this is all about people who are
>>>outsiders<<<
to Native cultures, usually but not necessarily white, as, again, I went out of my way to make clear.
And once again, you proved you are an outsider to Native cultures by your obsessive focus on race, repeatedly reading into others' comments, seeing race everywhere and in every word when it just isn't there.
I haven't seen someone so focused and obsessed with race since, well, the last time an outsider to Native cultures went into an extended bit of obsessiveness on the topic to try and sidetrack the topic from exploitation, abuse, and commercialization done by outsiders such as Lawler.
But I guess deliberately misreading and trying to sidetrack on one point out of eight is a good way to do anything you can to avoid having to answer the other seven points I asked about.
It's a shame. You came on here as someone trying to offer a firsthand perspective on Lawler's commercialization of what he claims to be ayahuasca ceremonies, but when questioned do all you can to avoid actually answering questions or concerns.
Lawler's hucksterism doesn't concern you? His pandering and his obesession with money and sales pitches? His peddling his wares on one of the lowest genres of television, "reality" series?
And the fact that you somehow imagined you had learned in a couple weeks (or it was somehow possible for anyone to learn) a great deal about healing traditions that take decades to learn, that doesn't concern you? That's even assuming Lawler presented anything close to actual ayahusca ceremony, which is very dubious.
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Educated Indian,
You made a valid point. I only answered 1 out of your 7 statements sofar.
So let me try and do a better job this time.
So working back from your most recent communication, you say:
"bfl, once again, you assumed that this is all about "race". None of us did, including me.
I went out of my way to say this is all about people who are
>>>outsiders<<<
to Native cultures, usually but not necessarily white, as, again, I went out of my way to make clear."
But in your first response to me you say:
"2. It tends to be white outsiders who, so used to race being the standard for everything, want to make race the issue, when the real issue is that they are from outside the culture. Their (and your) attempts to appropriate the cultural traditions alter, damage, or even destroy precisely what you claim to find so valuable."
And again, at the end of that same communication you say:
"And again, why do you feel the need to set yourself up as a white guy becoming an Indian shaman? "
Sooooo.... I didn't just pick it out of thin air. I think you are actually making a bigger deal out of "White guy" than I am. The reason I brought it up was that you so blatantly seemed to jump to a conclusion about me that I thought it was well worth reflecting it back.
So the point is that of being an outsider.
Yes I am an outsider to the culture that traditionally takes ayahuasca and so, it appears, are you.
I come from a tiny little island in a warm sea and since I do not live there I am an outsider all the time, everywhere in whatever I do. Guilty as charged!
As to the allegations of Howard's " peddling his wares on one of the lowest genres of television, "reality" series": I have followed the links to the site several times but cannot find any footage. I do not feel capable of giving an opinion untill I personally see it.
It does not feel like Howard is aware that someone cut and pasted his response in this blog and untill I actually see the footage of the program you speak of, I think it possible that he is not even aware of that either. It does not sound like the guy I knew in 2003. But hey, I could be wrong and if I am I would like to come to that conclusion by myself instead of having it rammed down my throat by you.
It's very patronizing.
As to the content of his response which AH pasted into this blog. I think he is being sincere on the one hand and on the other I think he is cutting and pasting himself, on the other, in order to get all his mail answered. I don't think he has any idea that someone has pasted it into this blog.
As to your allegations about his concern with money. When I was there in 2003 he certainly did not live ostentatiously, in fact it might be considered below US/EU standards for people per square foot. He is the only white person in his very extended mestizo family. Yes he charges a lot of money but I do not see it filling up his pockets perse.
As to your concern as to how much I actually knew when I stated that Howard's connection to his practice etc appear to be genuine. It is a moot point because I never set myself up as an expert. It was my observation based on my human experience on this earth. And ofcourse it is subjective.
Shaman is an outsider term to communicate a notion to outsiders. Curandero, brujeria etc are also outsider terms coming from the spanish language to communicate certain notions to Spaniards.
The fact of the matter is that the curanderismo practiced in the Iquitos area is a syncretism of indigeonous and Spanish/Catholic beliefs and is practiced mainly by mestizo curanderos and curanderas. It is said that Mestizos learned the use of ayahuasca from the indigenous people some generations ago.
The tribes that now reside in that area, Shipibo, Bora, Yahua have been forced by the Peruvian government, to live in reservations even though their roaming turf comprises parts of Colombia and Brazil. Some tribes have been split apart as in the case of the Yahua, some live in Peru and some in Colombia.
This stationary lifestyle that has been forced on them has been devastating to their culture and many of them have lost their "actual healers". I think the "actual Healers you refer to between point 4 and 5 are the Taitas who currently reside in Colombia. Please refer me to the place where they single out and denounce the commercialism and exploitation of Lawler, the person. The following statement you make is misleading in that regard:
"Actual healers in the Amazon have denounced the commercialism and exploitation of Lawler and others like him."
People can construe that to mean that Lawler himself has been identified by this group as a major offender.
So the point I am trying to make here is that the "Curanderos" that Howard works with are indeed Mestizos. And Yes members of especially the Yahua tribe did attend.
To me the difference between a Mestizo and an Indigena are as obvious as the differences between a mulatto and a full blooded native from Africa. And if you know your geography and colonial history, that should start to give you a hint of where I am actually from.
As to your concern over how I could have possibly gotten anything out of this in two weeks.
First of all, I did not go in hoping to come out a shaman. To this day I do not aspire to be a Shaman whatever that means. I was hoping to experience taking ayahuasca in a context acceptable to me for my own reasons. I did not do it with the Taitas of Colombia. I did it with two curanderos from Iquitos who have their own syncretistic tradition.
Let me just say once again that I wrote in because AH at one point was hoping to get feedback from someone who had actually been to Howards retreat. I had good faith that this would be a place where an actual discussion could take place. I don't feel that anymore. Tomorrow to be sure you will be parting out what I said here, phrase by phrase, numbering them and using them to attack my validity. Go ahead. AH is long gone and you are just singing to the choir now.
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I am appalled to see false statements associated with the name of a man who I honor and love as my true friend and brother.
I know Howard Lawler personally through attending his Huachuma Mesa works in the Amazon, the Andes and coastal Peru. This deeply healing and transformational work changed my life.
I know Howard as most honorable human being and attest to his uncompromising integrity. He performs his service with complete dedication, courage, and humility. I do, and always will, hold Howard in highest esteem as one of the finest people I know, always true to himself and to the higher purpose of his life. I am honored to know him.
What Howard offers to those who seek it, is genuine work with sacred plant medicine, performed in the spirit of respect for the unfathomable forces of the Universe and willingness to see the truth - both within and all around you. This work requires honesty, courage, and pure intent from everyone involved. Every impurity is exposed.
This is not a fraud, and I stand behind this statement.
Discernment comes from your heart. Please be open.
Warm regards,
Tanya
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Tanya, "he makes me feel good, so how can he be a fraud?" is a very poor defense. Basically you haven't said or proven anything, not even pointed out what you claim to be "false statements".
bfl,
2. Don't get mad at me because you keep deliberately overlooking words like "usually" or phrases like "tends to be".
Nice of you to admit you are an outsider, but very ignorant of you to assume that an NDN is an outsider to other NDNs.
Nice of you also to admit Lawler makes lots of money. If you think he lives poorly by "US standards" obviously you've never been to a rez or the inner city, where the poverty is about the same as the poorest parts of Latin America.
You admit you are not an expert, but that hasn't stopped you from acting as one. After all, if you'd bothered to check out the stats on poverty on the rezzes and inner cities, you'd have known better to make your statement.
And there's one more interesting contradiction. Supposedly Lawler is seen by you as the Great White Savior by NDNs, but then you say he is part of "mestizo family."
Both you and Tanya seem to be here to sneer at the choir, rather than discuss, and certainly not to listen to what NDNs actually have to say.
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There is a lot of information in this thread and some people have gone off topic in their posts. I would like to bring it back to the subject... Howard Lawler.
I have personally been to his retreat twice in the past year. My first trip was for four Ayahuasca ceremonies and the second trip was for three Ayahuasca ceremonies and six Huachuma mesas.
For the person who thinks Howard brings in indigenous people for show in the ceremony you are wrong. For both of the Ayahuasca ceremonies there were people from the Bora, Yahua and Witoto Indian tribes present (not all on the same day). How do I know they are from these tribes? Because we visit these tribes during the stay there and I see these same people (and they were truly sick). These tribes do not have their own ayahuasquero so Howard offers them free treatment.
Why does he do this? It's because these tribes live off the land and do not have money to go into Iquitos to see a "regular" doctor.
Don Rober is truly gifted. When I first went to see Howard I had constant back pain. Don Rober performed a healing on my back during the Ayahuasca ceremonies and I can honestly say that my back pain has disappeared.
Prior to going to see Howard I had x-rays, a CAT scan and two MRI's done on my back and the doctors could not find anything wrong. In one week Don Rober healed me...
As for the spiritual and psychological treatment I received I can tell you it has been very beneficial. My friends have noticed a change in me (for the better). I fought a lot of inner demons during my work and Howard was very supportive and helpful in me getting resolution to my issues.
As for Howard himself I can tell you this... He is the most open, honest, no bullshit, trusting person I have ever met. He speaks from the heart and only has good intentions for everyone.
My experiences with him have been nothing short of spectacular. He runs a first class operation, is very knowledgeable and he personally works with every participant after each ceremony.
I have seen major changes in people after one week. I am not going to list names on here but I will tell you one of their stories.
This guy was raped by another man when he was a child. He was in intensive psychotherapy most of his life and even contemplated suicide at one point. After a week working with Howard, Don Rober and Ayahuasca he was a different person. He accomplished in one week what years of psychotherapy could not... he was able to forgive the person who raped him and not let that demon rule his life. The change in him was profound. I still communicate with him on a regular basis and his life has turned around 100%. He is a completely different person from the one I first met.
As for Howard's email response being a "long sales pitch", well, Howard likes to give you all the information you need to decide if you want to work with him. Besides, the email he received did not ask any specific question that I could see. It just said that this website is claiming he is a fraud.
Has anyone other than the person who posted actually sent Howard an email asking specific questions? If so please post them here with his response.
Without actually going to see Howard and spend time at his retreat I cannot see how anyone on here can claim he is a fraud. You are making assumptions based on your view of reality and projecting it into this forum. The people who have gone to see Howard and posted on here have all stated he is not a fraud. I have not seen one post by a person who has gone to see Howard and came back saying he is a fraud.
So get off your ass and go see Howard. If after spending time with him you still think he is a fraud (which I doubt) then at least you will have personal experience to back up your claims.
He is all about healing (physical, mental and spiritual) and that is the central message of his organization.
Scott
P.S. If after my first experience I had even the slightest hint that Howard was a fraud you can bet you ass I would not have gone back to see him a second time.
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1.... He is the most open, honest, no bullshit, trusting person I have ever met. He speaks from the heart and only has good intentions for everyone.
2....he personally works with every participant after each ceremony.
3....As for Howard's email response being a "long sales pitch", well, Howard likes to give you all the information you need to decide if you want to work with him. Besides, the email he received did not ask any specific question that I could see. It just said that this website is claiming he is a fraud.
4. Without actually going to see Howard and spend time at his retreat I cannot see how anyone on here can claim he is a fraud. You are making assumptions based on your view of reality and projecting it into this forum. The people who have gone to see Howard and posted on here have all stated he is not a fraud. I have not seen one post by a person who has gone to see Howard and came back saying he is a fraud.
So getoff your ass and go see Howard. If after spending time with him you still think he is a fraud (which I doubt) then at least you will have personal experience to back up your claims....
Scott
5. P.S. If after my first experience I had even the slightest hint that Howard was a fraud you can bet you ass I would not have gone back to see him a second time.
Scott, I added numbers so it'd be clearer what I was responding to.
1. You bet, open honest people always respond to requests for proof they don't abuse people or lie by ignoring the question and giving long sales pitches instead.
Open honest people always go to the sleaziest of tv genres, "reality television," to try and hawk their businesses and make more money. Didn't Albert Schweitzer go to the tabloids to promote himself and make bucks?
2. Amazing. You went there for a few trips but claim to have seen each and every person he ever worked with.
3. Like Lawler, you deliberately avoid seeing what you don't want to see. Lawler was asked specific questions, but his brain tuned them out and automatically went into the sales pitch.
4. Try doing some reading before wasting our time. "Have you actually met him in person?" is a very common empty headed defense used by Nuagers and ceremony sellers to avoid critics, and it's been covered before in other threads.
You know, instead of demanding we waste thousands of dollars on empty spiritual tourism and ceremony selling, you could've gotten off your ass and done a little research. But you were too lazy to even hit the search button.
5. Since you know very little about Native traditions, that doesn't exactly prove much. Con men are called con men because they get your confidence.
The clearest example of how you know so little is this. The three tribes you listed all use ayayuasca widely, have for many years.
No, you're certainly no expert on the cultures, or even on how the local tribes regard Lawler. Two of those tribes number in the tens of thousands, so the few dozen people you saw mean little. But as someone whose spent his money on Lawler repeatedly, let me ask you why Lawler keeps sending his clients here to defend him? Is he losing business, or does he fear losing business?
Or perhaps marks might be a better word. After all, if you truly wanted healing, you would have gone to an actual healer, not a white guy promoting himself on tabloid TV. What is it that makes you and the others assume the white guy is a superior healer to the actual Native healers? Besides the websites set up for spiritual tourism, that is.
Because in the end, what shows Lawler to be a huckster is the way you and others find him, on top of his dubious claims to be the Great White Savior of Poor Amazon Indians and the way he sends his spiritual tourists to defend his business. If he truly were a healer, there'd be no flashy promotions, no king sized displays of ego like in his sales pitches.
If you'd been healed, for example, the way I've seen white veterans cured of PTSD by being sent to healers their Native buddies in the military recommended to them, that we can all see as a good thing. If a local man had sent you to someone he recommended who works and does good quietly, without fanfare and a big profit margin, yes. But Donald Trump of the Jungle as a White Indian Healer? No one with sense will buy that.
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Prior to going to see Howard I had x-rays, a CAT scan and two MRI's done on my back and the doctors could not find anything wrong. In one week Don Rober healed me...
... I'm not sure how there being no evidence of you having a back problem in the first place is therefore evidence that you were later healed of a back problem. Just saying...
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Kathryn, You're not getting access to my medical records. You'll just have to trust me on this one.
educatedindian, Bless you...
Howard did not ask me to defend him (where did you get this information? Who specifically told you that Howard asked me to defend him?). You talk about facts but provide none yourself for your wild accusations.
You also made up quotes that I never said (ex: You went there for a few trips but claim to have seen each and every person he ever worked with) Reread my post. You will see I never said this.
That FACT is that I happen to be doing some research on the web and this URL came up on a keyword search. I read the post and felt compelled to respond.
I'm not going to get into any further discussions on this because it would be pointless to try and discuss it with you. I stated my opinion and I'm leaving it at that.
For everyone else, believe what you want.
Scott
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Prior to going to see Howard I had x-rays, a CAT scan and two MRI's done on my back and the doctors could not find anything wrong. In one week Don Rober healed me...
... I'm not sure how there being no evidence of you having a back problem in the first place is therefore evidence that you were later healed of a back problem. Just saying...
That didn't ring quite right with me either. Doctors found no problems, but njbigblue felt pain there and the healer took the pain 'caused by nothing' away. I dunno....
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Scott likes to be known as "Chief Roaring Thunder" on myspace.
http://www.myspace.com/njbigblue
Speaks volumes about his cultural sensitivity, don't you think?
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Scott likes to be known as "Chief Roaring Thunder" on myspace.
http://www.myspace.com/njbigblue
Speaks volumes about his cultural sensitivity, don't you think?
Holy crap.
And the captions on his spiritual tourism pics: http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewPicture&friendID=17297135&albumId=1812863
"Me and the Bora indians." "Witoto Indians doing a dance for us."
Cause, you know, they don't have names or anything.
Oh wait, this guy has a name: "Don Rober waiting to give me my morning flower bath."
Classy.
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I didn't know people have special "outfits" for Ayahuasca.
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Scott (njbigblue) seems like nothin' more than a clubbin' social animal. The captions about his trip speak volumes. He's EXACTLY the type of person Lawler's schtick is meant to entice. It's no wonder he's in whole hog about this.
Saw pictures of a swanky hotel. Doesn't know the names of any of the locals he was involved with. I'm just wondering where he gets the idea he has credibility when it comes to figuring out if someone's authentic or not.
Here's a clue Scott....you asked rhetorically why Lawler offers free treatment to some of the locals...you answered it yourself, but here's the real deal.....it's to fool suckers like you with more money than brains that he's actually accepted and authentic. If you've never been part of a small isolated community you just don't know what that dynamic is all about. Of course they accept the free treatment and don't say anything to him....why wouldn't they. But the treatment he offers isn't truly free...it's a front to keep his business going drawing in people like yourself who actually have money they can be talked out of. Do you think he's gonna make any kind of living selling ceremonies to the people he learned these things from??? Nope....he's gonna make it from you. The fact that he's made a few friends there by stringing them along with something they need in order to pass off the idea that he's authentic doesn't impress me at all.....it disgusts me. I've seen it first hand in my own community. As soon as your money dries up...he'lll forget all about you....believe that.
And "Chief Roaring Thunder"?????? geez....please get embarrassed by that...just to show you have some common sense. Walk into a room of natives and introduce yourself as such.....
Makes me sick.
Superdog