General => Frauds => Topic started by: educatedindian on July 05, 2007, 05:45:36 pm

Title: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: educatedindian on July 05, 2007, 05:45:36 pm
We began NAFPS in 2001 as a Yahoo club/group and went through a lot together, at least eight unsuccessful attempts to shut us down, empty threats of lawsuits, stalkers, identity thieves, libel campaigns, and even death threats. We have emerged from it all relatively unscathed and more determined than ever to continue our work.

When a spiritual exploiter insults us, attacks us, spreads rumors, issues empty threats of lawsuits, or goes to elaborate and ultimately useless efforts to go after us, we take it as a compliment.

We take it as a sign of success, a mark of how worried they are about the loss of their income, power, or standing because of their fraudulent or disprespectful actvity being exposed and criticized.

The more they squawk, the more they show themselves to be panicked or paranoid.

This thread will be a list of all the frauds, exploiters, and other dubious characters who have gone to the extra effort against us.

Each one should be listed on a separate post, with links back to where else they are listed on the site.
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: educatedindian on July 05, 2007, 05:54:18 pm
In rough chronological order:

Betsy Ashby, owner of the Pagan Resource Center of Newport News, Virginia and a dedicated follower of Brooke Edwards AKA "Medicine Eagle". Most memorably, she once described how Edwards tricked a sheriff's deputy into shooting an unarmed AIM member when AIM protested one of her pay to pray ceremonies. She also sent me numerous emails arguing Natives had never gone through genocide. Other pagans from her area sent us notes of praise and describd her as an unrepentant racist, and that heavy handed tactics scared other local pagans into silence.

Ashby issued dozens of threats of lawsuits, none of which were ever carried out. In fact, her lawyer's tactics were so sleazy and unethical, he faced being disbarred and only avoided any action from his state bar by concealing his address.

More on Ashby
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: RavenCrow on March 11, 2008, 02:20:55 pm
I like what you said. I too say, "If I pissed them off and they attack me, I am happy because I am not here for a popularity contest and when I find out who are the fakes I will become your worst nightmare come true." I have discovered that they do become extremely paranoid and they are so good at twisting and throwing double standards around. If I hear one more time that these fakes are looking for love, peace, harmony and we are all one, I will have to be shackled down. LOL

I have only recently learned a lot of these groups and people and I feel like I am in a crash course.
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: danielle on April 04, 2008, 06:32:45 am
Awesome feeling when you make those enemies. Tragic they have to go that ther and be be among us but i do gotta admit getting a rush out of it.
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 16, 2008, 03:11:10 pm
I've put together a compilation showing the history of some of the people who have tried to discredit what we do here.

NAFPS is made of of many different types of people who have many different reasons for being here. Some people come here to share accurate information and are truely dedicated to protecting both people and Native traditions from exploitation and abuse. Others come here to disagree with something that is said here, and a few seem to come here just to entertain themselves by role playing in cyberspace . Together we create many lively discussions and no matter who people are , I think everyone who participates here brings some good things to share. Even if it is just provokation which forces all of us to to think things through more deeply.

Some of these people go on to try and discredit what is done here.

We are an imperfect bunch and even the people who have honorable intentions occaisionally make mistakes and have blind spots . What really bothers me is when instead of confronting someone with a specific incident where there is a disagreement, some people go on to try and generally discredit everything that is done here - and in the process of discrediting the information provided by NAFPS these people often undermine respect for the protection of ceremonies and the many recognized Elders and Spiritual leaders. who have repeatedly expressed concerns over this 

I don't know what happened between NAFPS and Betsy Asby as I was not a member of NAFPS when this disagreement occured , so i don't know if betsy might have a valid complaint or not. I don't see anything on line anymore that links her to Brooke Medicine ego , but I see she continues to circulate stories which are obviously not likely to be true

I see she posts a lot on the "Issues Affecting Indians in Tennessee " message board, though I'm not sure what her intrest is, as she is non native.

The first post shows that the person posting as "Betsy" is "Betsy Ashby";article=15621;title=Issues%20Affecting
%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee (;article=15621;title=Issues%20Affecting
Little voices told me ;-) — Betsy, Thu Aug 10 12:07PM
(begins.... ) .My name is Betsy Ashby! If anyone else had the same name on the net, they've probably changed it by now

Here is one of the stories she is spreading to discredit NAFPS ;;article=16653;title=Issues
%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee (;article=16653;title=Issues
This one wanted a harem?
Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:03AM

The "EducatedNDN" running NAFPS claimed to be a "Mescalero Apache" and "a graduate student in American Indian history at Purdue University"

I found this OLD message, posted from his email address, in which he admits he is a mudblood, among other things LOL He wasn't happy and had this message deleted from its original site, but it is still available on the wayback machine.

San Antonio for now, DC and Conn in a while WEB URL: <> Carl & Sheryl E-MAIL:
-- 03/29/99 -- 15:34:13
Hello, We are a couple seeking to practice traditional American Indian polygamy, meaning a woman centered household. We both have a mix of Catholic and native beliefs. I am mixed blood, also Irish/Mexican, 33, 6'1", 190, quiet, gentle, well educated, grad student becoming a professor, thoughtful, loving, devoted to family and friends. My wife is 20, 5', 90, Asian, straight, silly and fun, very bright,speaks 4 languages, becoming a computer programmer. we seek a single lady who is loving, opne, nonjealous, good hearted, any racial or ethnic background. We are very accepting of all peoples and beliefs. Please consider joining our loving family.

The first thing to note is that this supposed personal was placed by someone named “Carl???- which is not the same as the name “Al “ or “Alton???.  Assuming this message exists, it seems peculilar that people would assume it was placed by someone named Al. But thats assuming it exists .  Betsy doesn't actually provide the URL ... Which makes me think maybe it doesn't.

Someone on Indianz got mad at Al after hearing this story, and Al explained where the story originated .
Edited to add
I see where in this thread at indianz Al also repeats some things he heard about Betsy , and as he gives no sources himself maybe Betsy has a reason to complain - about that specifically - but from what I see these allegations can be found on other websites and are not posted in NAFPS. 
As there is a few strange stories that got mentioned it's a bit unclear if this was started by Betsy Ashby or Tallsoldier77;
Al Carroll
Most of the lies you posted came from Ashby. That one particular one you just mentioned actually came from Tall "soldier".
Tallsoldier is one of the internet names of John Martin , who is a supporter of David Yeagley. Martin spreads lies about anyone who threatens to discredit Yeagley . His past behavior is shown in detail in the post below .

But Betsy apparently doesn't care about the source – ( or perhaps she is the source and that is why she neglects to include the URL to the archived webpage ) Instead she continues to spread this story and justifies this by claiming she has documentation;article=27961;title=Issues%20Affecting
%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee (;article=27961;title=Issues%20Affecting
Re: Who's got intel like that on you, anyway?
Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:16AM
As far as NAFPS goes, Al Carroll is as much of a Faux Indian as the rest of them. He DOES NOT research the people he profiles, he has publicly accused one person of what someone else with a similar name did, etc. etc. I've watched that man flat out lie and make stuff up about a person ...and yes, I can prove it. He's getting his own page too when the Mescalero Apache's reply to my snail mail. You know the "Spy vs Spy" cartoon? Well, I have half worked up a "Faux Indian vs. Faux Indian" site for Carroll....but unlike him, I am waiting for my documentation :-0
I do have the perv part of his page ready though ...wonder if he ever found that second female sexual partner he was advertising for on the net way back when he wasn't ashamed of being Mexican??

I'm not sure what are these people talking about? As Al has always said he is unenrolled I have to wonder what she expects to get back from the Mescalero Apaches. Confirmation that Al has always told the truth about this ?

Almost everything posted in NAFPS is sourced, and it is usually information found in webpages people put up about themselves . And Betsy is spreading this story about someone with a different name, to raise doubts about thes credibility of Al and the information posted in NAFPS, with no documentation at all , while at the same time claiming her research is better than what is found in NAFPS - because she supposedly waits to have documentation before spreading stories .

And Betsy expects people to believe she is more credible than NAFPS?

And then there is the racist and derogatory remarks calling Al a mud blood and suggesting being of indigenous descent from south of the border is something to be ashamed of . 

And where is their sources as Betsy makes these allegations? I see nothing at all.

Even if some people sometimes post stuff on this message board and they make a mistake or it is flat out not true, at least the moderators here make an effort to counter this. People posting untrue allegations is a problem on many message boards. It seems especially hypocritical to be making an issue of this problem like NAFPS has some horrible failing because of this , as this particular message board Betsy likes to post on has allowed people like  Robin, Joyce and John Martin to write many untrue allegations about NAFPS and Al. Most or all these allegations can easily be proven to be untrue and maliciously motivated ( see the information I've posted below )  but none of the moderators there stoped these people from posting these stories...

It seems Betsy thinks if someone posts something that isn't true on the NAFPS website , for some unexplained reason the moderators of NAFPS are responsible for that, but  the moderators of the website she posts in aren't responsible for the lies other people post ? That seems to be a peculiar double standard.

Betsy's criticism of NAFPS allowing posters to say things that may not be fair seems especially odd, as she apparently thinks allowing non native people to say they don't agree with something is just fine ..
 My Three Choices For Who's Who   Jan 17th. at 2:47:23 am EST

My second nominee would be Betsy Ashby. Not for the work she does keeping the Gathering of the Tribes in Virginia going, but for another reason that some people might find "negative". Betsy Ashby is the owner and founder of the Witch Wars yahoo group which is an unmoderated and uncensored mailing list of everything from high ideals and speculation to venomous attacks and airing of grievances for the larger pagan community. This underutilized forum could be the clearinghouse of issues and communities in seemingly unresolvable conflict. This service can be used as a place for people to air grievances, concerns or even bring both sides of conflict together for possible resolution, or merely for both sides to air their sides.

Seems like she thinks non native people should be able to say whatever they like, but native people should only be able to say whatever she likes...

So whatever it is about NAFPS that offends Betsy it doesn't seem to be what she says it is, as she finds the same thing and worse , perfectly acceptable if she is doing it or it's happening on another message board. Which makes it seem like it's actually something else that she doesn't like about NAFPS but for some reason she doesn't want to say what that is. When people act like that i always suspect it's because people know if they said their real reasons nobody would find these reasons honorable. So they make stuff up.

Betsy seems to have some affiliation with groups which are often associated with White Supremacists . Reportedly, one of the honored guests featured at an event Betsy helps organize is one of the leaders of a Northern European heritage group which has connections to some White supremacist groups.

These affiliations recently came up and got discussed in the thread below;;all

 Re: Yngona Desmond
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2008, 11:37:07 am »

Take your phony whites-only religion and shove off to Stormfront, where it appears people have heard of you
(this comment is explained in detail in Barnaby's following posts )

 Re: Yngona Desmond
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2008, 06:59:31 am » 
She's also scheduled to be the honored guest at a pagan "Gathering of Tribes" run by Betsy Ashby
Gathering+of+the+tribes%22+%22Yngona+Desmond+%22&hl=en&gl=ca&ie=UTF-8&strip=1 (
The 2008 Spring Gathering of the Tribes...
We are pleased to have as our SPECIAL GUESTS at the   
2008 Spring Gathering of the Tribes!
Yngona Desmond

On the other hand Betsy sounds like she is doing some good things - at least on the surface it looks that way... She has put together her own version of an anti fraud website and Betsy says her aim is to discredit people making false claims to be Indian who are wrongly looking to take over Native identies and rights.

We contact Tribal Officials directly when checking out someone's public teaching credentials.  It's not difficult.  We fax the Tribe a copy of whatever the person is claiming and ask "Is this true?" Then we post the Tribal contact number so other reporters can do their own verifications. We're not talking rocket surgery here folks  ec

If anyone has a problem with the information we receive from a Tribe, they need to TAKE IT UP WITH THAT TRIBAL OFFICE!!
(continues ...)

If the person is in fact, an enrolled member of a Federally Recognized Tribe, we will say bold print.... and take down anything else about that individual.  What a member of a Treaty Tribe wants to do with their own culture is between them and their Tribe.  If someone doesn't like what a Federally Recognized Tribal member is doing...please go take it up with their Nation, not a bunch of white folk

I basicly agree with a lot of what she says on this subject, except there is a few problems.

First,  faux indians aren't really the problem - it is how these people behave that is the problem. While it might be practical to expose people you know in real life who are falsely claiming to be Indian - to try and do this on line is probably nothing more than an inflamatory make work project.

Anybody who reads message boards like will see that on line disputes about who is Indian and who is pretending can go on and on and on and on and on and on .....seemingly with nothing gained except a lot of bad feelings and resentment.

On line, it seems to make better sense to focus on peoples behavior rather than their identity .
While it sounds respectful to insist that it needs to be the tribes and only people from the tribe the exploiter is claiming - who decide who is an exploiter and who isn't, the idea that this needs to be done on a case by case basis ignores the fact that many tribes have already clearly made official statements defining what they consider exploitive behavior and that anyone engaging in that behavior is an exploiter and should be avoided. Ignoring these official statements that already exist, and expecting to rehash this in each individual situation , on a case by case basis is not respectful . Expecting this to be defined on a case by case basis would completely bog down the relatively straight forward process of identifying people engaged in these behaviorr as people to avoid.

The next problem is that Betsy , who is non native , is trying to set herself up as some kind of official middleman between the public and the tribes - but as has already been pointed out,  she has a nasty habit of saying stuff that isn't true if she personally doesn't like someone. So unfortunantly, there is no reason to trust anything she says, and such a person supposedly acting as a middleman is likely to confuse the issues and undermine respect for what tribes do in fact say, about what constitutes abuse , fraud and exploitation.

If people were to go about discrediting frauds in the way she is recommending as "ethical" it would men either taking her less than relaiable word for this, or it would mean nobody except the tribe could say a specific person was behaving in an unacceptable way, and EVERYBODY who wanted to know if someone was who they said they are and if what this person was doing was OK, would personally have to contact the tribe . Which would completely overwhelm the tribe with repeated inquireis about the same person.

I don't think this approach is practical, and advoctaing a solution to cultural protection that won't work , while spreading lies about the people using another approach that has a better chance of success, does undermine the ability of Native people to protect their culture.

If Betsy really cares about the issues she claims to, I have to wonder why she would behave in the way she does.

One reason Betsy may be lending her support is so she can have a hand in redefining the definitions of exploitation and abuse. Unfortunantely, I see this quite often and it is an old trick - ofering support to an indigenous nation which is being overwhelmed - but expecting concessions which compromise the integrity of the nation recieving this support, concession which often turn out to be the first step in the colonization process.;article=27987;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee

Re: He'll pop in here soon...
Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:03PM

[edit] However, both NAFPS and the ShameOns regularly attack people for spouting some admittedly bizarre SPIRITUAL ideals.... which are matters of religious freedom and perception, not misrepresentation. No money or goods are changing hands, no 501 (c) (3) begging for funds, the person is not making any provably false claims of enrollment, or presenting any other bogus credentials, Indian or otherwise. They are honest about who they are and what they are doing... they just have some rather unique ideas regarding spirits, worship and creation.
[edit]If someone says they are channeling a space alien from the Pleides named Rodney who told them to worship the Great Turnip and dance naked around their barbecue grill chanting "Shis ka bob" ... we will defend to the death their right to do so long as they have a tall privacy fence. Who am I to say who is hearing whose little voice in their head?? :-/

Actually NAFPS doesn't try to discredit unusual beliefs. What NAFPS tries to discredit is people claiming their personal unusual beliefs are some sort of tribal traditional belief when they just made it up or imagined it.  NAFPS would only discredit the "religion" decribed above if the people were claiming it was Cherokee or Hopi or Lakota in it's origins. Betsy must know this but apparently she has some reason for wanting to make it sound like NAFPS just likes picking on people with unusual beliefs. It sounds like what Betsy is saying is that , if people don't claim to be enrolled and they aren't charging for the stuff they make up , she doesn't think anyone should be able to say what they are doing is not some tribal traditon as they are claiming and they just made it up. Even if that is the truth.

NAFPS and ShameOns also attack people who play mix and match the ceremonies from a variety of Traditions. For good or ill, this ALWAYS happens when different cultures intersect. [ edit ]it is NOT my job, or my right, to dictate someone else's Spiritual path matter how ridiculous and/or insulting I may perceive it to be. Whatever .. no victim, no crime.... Oh, and then there is that pesky little clause in the Bill of Rights ;-)

And so while she is willing discredit people wrongly claiming an Indian identity, she apparently will defend the right of non natives to help themself to Native traditions and ceremonies and does not see this as a crime, and she doesn't consider denying Native people the right to select their own leaders, and maintain and protect their own culture and traditions as they see fit , a creating victims of a crime.

I can see why some people feel this woman is a racist ...

(edited to add the additional information I mentioned i planed to add yesterday... )
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 16, 2008, 03:30:48 pm
A lot of this information on John Martin is rearranged / borrowed from something Al posted over at (

 John Martin,  uses the nameTallsoldier77 , Lakota_Siouxperman , and registered in NAFPS as Steve_w.

John Martin is a supporter of David Yeagley, and Yeagley is a supporter of many groups which are opposed to the recognition of Native sovereignty.

Below are some examples of Yeagley's ideas ( 2/26/2002

By David Yeagley
"Superior beauty is in the white race, with its scintillating varieties of color: red, brown, amber, golden hair... green, blue, light brown, gray eyes. In the darker races, everything is always the same, dark brown and black a beastly bore."

"These days the white woman is expected to humble herself before the darkie

"But Hitler was wrong in Mein Kamf (1925), when he accuses the Jewish male of a racial plot. When "the black-haired Jewish youth" finds himself sexually attracted to the fair Aryan maiden, there is no "clear aim of ruining the hated white race" through intermarriage. The Jew himself would breed out, for he is a small minority.

But the masses of darker races don't fear extinction, because they are the vast majority. The white race is the world's minority.

Its Judeo-Christian religion allowed the European Caucasian race to advance above all other people; but the darker races now encroach through integration and intermarriage, in the name of equality and diversity.

Pat Buchanan says that there's something wrong with a race that doesn't care whether it exists or not. In his new book, The Death of The West, he refers to my article, "What's Up With White Women," in which I write about a white girl who has no pride in her race or its accomplishments.

There are dark people who look forward to the end of "whitey." (
"Mixed raced people can't help what they are. Their's is no fault. But there is no need to repeat the same, or to advocate more, or to idolize such a condition by perpetuating it. When you realize you're on a wrong path, even if you didn't put yourself on it, the only dignified thing to do is to get back on the right path."

Yeagley also has a reputation supporting groups who oppose Indian sovereignty. (

"I was invited to speak to leaders of Citizens Equal Rights Alliance, United Property Owners, Upstate Citizens for Equality,and One Nation. These organizations represent over a quarter of a million Americans citizens who have personally lost money,property, business, and basic civil rights as the result of aggressions by the Indian casino industry. (Not to mention the income counties and states lose to tax-exempt "Indian" casino business.)"

"It's their people that created America, not Indians. Only a diabolically self-righteous liberal politician would take America out of the hands that created it, and give it to those who either lost it, or never had anything to do with it." (

David Yeagley
"As a Comanche Indian, I'm sensitive to this history. I believe the conqueror has a right to what he has conquered. No one owns the land. Only he who is strong enough to possess it will control it and the people living on it. That's the law of war."

Yeagley helped to make an offensive documentary about ndns .

There is information in NAFPS about this documentary in the link below;

There is more information on this documentary on a website maintained by Brent Micheal Davids

Quoting from the documentary

“When the warrior was finally defeated, he became the reservation Indian??? (leaning forehead toward camera for added emphasis).
“The, the loser. The alcoholic. The depressed, keep-away-from-me, leave-me-alone???

Quoting from the above documentary

“The idea that you can build a community with its own government, with its own economy, its own schools, its own language. That’s the idea that many Indian leaders are hoping for. They cut off themselves from participation, from successful positive participation in the world around them???

John Martin ( TS77 and LSM ) is a vocal supporter of Yeagley.;act=ST;f=53;t=6651;st=30 (;act=ST;f=53;t=6651;st=30)

Posted: Nov. 26 2006

“All I am saying is that the self-proclaimed "Fraud-hunter" posts some of the most slanderous and blatant lies I have ever seen, since I joined this forum.

He calls Dr. Yeagley every name in the book. He says that is a neo-nazi/white supremacist stronghold, I have never seen any post here that supported or re-affirmed the white separatists movement.

I thought this site was primarily concerned with all issues Indian. The personal attacks aimed at Dr. Yeagley were unprovoked and instigated by this person, "Al Carrol", who is not even an Indian, he is Irish/Mexican, I reserve the right to refrain from calling him an Apache, because he has not proven that he is in fact even enrolled with a specific tribe.

I finally decided it was time to call this "Al Carrol" person on his accusations of stating that this site is run by white-supremacists. When I did, Carrol, a so-called "Phd", could only respond with more lies and slander and hate directed at me.

I for one, think the guy is a coward, he has done absolutely nothing but spread a hate filled racist ideology on other forums, particularly his own "NAFPS" web-site. Indians don't care about frauds/rip-offs, most of the Indians I know are too busy trying to survive and hold on to the traditions and customs and ceremonies that were passed down to them from their valiant ancestors.

If this "Al Carrol" person were really concerned about the welfare of the Indian community, he would be using his "Phd." to teach, to help others attain knowledge and through a positive academic enlightenment attain self-esteem and self-reliance. This is what is all about.???

Al started a thread called "A Way to Spread the Truth About Yeagley" on the Indianz,com message board. Here is some of TS77 response to this;

Posted - 11/19/2006

speaking to Al carroll in reference to David Yeagley

“Instead of posting useless, slanderous accusations about a man who could intellectually demolish you in a milli-second,???........

“I have the researched the misinformation you call fact, libel and lies, from a lying liar. ...???

Posted - 11/19/2006

“The links you provide are all out-dated, biased, and circumstantial, provide a real political periodical, that can show how Dr. Yeagley has been a detriment to the "plight" of the American Indian???

Posted - 02/15/2008

???I have visited and have not seen anything problematic or threatening to American Indians. Dr Yeagley is harmless. He has a right to voice his opinion just like that Irish hooligan Al Carroll. It's called the 1st Amendment.........???

“Then there is his obsession/stalking of this Dr Yeagley person. Dr Yeagley is a relatively benign proponent of Indian affairs, compared to Al, he is a saint. I read one of his articles and found nothing anti-Indian about it:???

Posted - 02/15/2008

“Why do you call Dr Yeagley's input on the History Channel garbage? Are you a Comanche historian?
“I think Dr Yeagley is harmless because instead of worrying about what he says in is blogs, you should be more concerned about real issues facing many tribes on the brink of cultural extinction. Dr Yeagley is a professional blogger. If you people stopped giving credence to what he writes then he would fade away into oblivion.

Now, the reason I don't like this Irish punk Carroll is because he began calling me a white supremacist. Unbelievable.???

In the link below is a screen shot where John Martin explains that he is out to discredit Al Carroll because he doesn't like what Al says about Yeagley

Apparently Yeagley was actively encouraging Martin

David Yeagley
June 4 , 2007
Tallsoldier I respect what you are doing. I trust you. Take a look at the sites, the "enemy" sites. See what they are doing. Carroll has already claimed Naiche as a friend, and welcomed him into the anti-Yeagley fold.

John Martin's strategies to undermine the information presented by Al Carroll and NAFPS mostly rely on outright lies, threats and sustained harassment.

John Martin harasses everyone who has blogs discrediting Yeagley.

Michel Shiningelk criticized Yeagley on her blog

And TS77 falsely accused her of being a [serious untrue allegation removed]. She has published screen shots of these accusations in her blog;

Friday, March 9, 2007

“What's more, the TS77 wants to cry and whine around like a little baby when he feels those he has attacked, attack him via his family -- talk about crying wolf and a tried and true bi-polar narcissistic hypocrite. When he posted photos of some children (see below) who he claims are on "his" soccer team and under that photo (see below) he calls me a [serious untrue allegation removed } (?), sick and twisted (?) and then threatens me to stay away from his children??? He is crazy! Deeeee deeeee deeeeee! The volume on the circus music playing in his head must be so loud it is clouding his ability to act rationally, or like a normal person. Uh, TS77, thanks for demonstrating that you are the pedophile here. And my, wouldn't the soccer moms of these children be interested in learning that you are using their children in your own sick, twisted and perverted manner - posting photos of unsuspecting and innocent people TS77, I mean really. You really are a dim wit. ....???

Posted by Michelle R. Shining Elk “

Brent Micheal Davids has a blog criticizing Yeagley

And Martin falsely accuses him like he did to Michelle

Posted - 02/18/2008
“Isn't Brent Michael Davids the winkte/chubby gay guy who posted pics of little children on his website? Figures he and crazy Al are internet "bed-fellows". BMD as I am told he goes by is some morbidly obese pervert who [serious and untrue allegation removed]

Posted - 02/18/2008

“The massive coronary waiting to happen Brent Michael Davids.

Miss Davids the winkte has been known to post pictures of little children on his website. So if you have any pics of kids on here, delete then ASAP! The guy is a fat [serious and untrue allegation removed].???
There is two sides to every story

 Posted - 03/20/2008
Actually, Martin posted the photos himself in some flicker-type internet site, and another blogger forwarded the links to badeagle.ORG (the truth-telling site, not the Yeagley blog), where NO photos appeared at any time, only TEXT links to photos briefly appeared.

Since the original uploads were by Martin himself, and posted on a public site, had no legal or moral compulsion to remove the text links, but I personally removed the text links out of sympathy for Martin's request. Nothing more.

Contrarily, Martin left many death threats on my answering machine, his response to my kindness. Those wishing to hear the threats can simply go and listen to them, they are a matter of public record now:

More information on these death threats can be found in the link below;

BMD further explained why his blog linked to photos of Martin's family, below ;

Posted - 03/29/2008

..........??? Martin posted the photos of his wife and children on a publicly-accessible site, and posted links to those photos for a few days, until Martin called to request the links be removed. I removed them, out of respect and quite frankly kindness.

Again, the links were only posted as proof that Martin "is married with children" in response to his alleged extra-curricular MySpace activities. was sent complaints and screen shots of Martin's alleged activities with other females on MySpace. So posted proof of his marital and family status — proof provided directly by Martin himself, and proof discovered by an "advanced" Indianz member I might add, who I have kept confidential even today.

That's all there was to the matter, and like I said, I acted out of kindness in removing them, as I was not bound morally nor legally to do anything; the actual photos were posted by Martin himself on a public site and I did not post the photos. I only provided a text link to find them, and only did so briefly.??? 

Seeing how Martin was talking to Michelle, using a different user name, so she did not know it was the same person as tallsoldier77, who had previously been abusive towards her , this explanation sounds believable.

Here is one example below. (
Posted - 11/04/2007
I saw M. Shiningelk's pic. Her eyes are like devastating emerald stones, she is very pretty.. Michelle Shiningelk must have had a modeling career herself. What do you think Ajibik?

Al Carrol has a blog criticizing Yeagley

Al Carrol also gets repeatedly falsely accused same as BMD and Michelle (
LAKOTA_SIOUXPERMAN Posted - 03/06/2008 : 7:18:37 PM

“What's the matter Carroll, no shamans to stalk or is your Russian porn site down? I have been hearing rumors that you were mixed up in some [serious untrue allegation removed] scandal involving two female Asian students while you defrauded the Dept of Education by claiming Indian status to receive grants. So you are a cheat and a liar. Let's see you worm your way out of this.  I received this e-mail from a very reliable source at ASU. They told me to let everyone here know the truth:???

AL CARROLL IS A PERVERTED [untrue allegation removed !!"
Posted - 02/19/2008

“Al, you are the biggest coward/idiot on this forum. You know that your flabby friend posted pics of innocent little children on his stupid website. He is almost as big of a [untrue allegation removed]as you and your [untrue allegation removed]. You called me a white supremacist. Now prove it. You are so full of shyt. What kind of Apache are you supposed to be? Tell fatboy to stick to what he does best: BLOWING THINGS!???

Posted - 03/16/2008

“Irony is a strange thing. Funny a person who comitted [ untrue serious allegation removed] while a grad student at ASU would even stoop so low to say such a thing. "Doctor" you should be ashamed of yourself. Al Carroll is the biggest Irish joker out there, Happy St. Paddy's day "doctor".

Martin also made threatening phone calls to Al Carroll's parents. More information can be read in the link below.

Another way Martin tries to discrediting the information provided by NAFPS is by saying this website is just a scam to make money.

A Way to Spread the Truth About Yeagley

Posted - 11/19/2006

“I have the researched the misinformation you call fact, libel and lies, from a lying liar. "Carrol", be a man and step up to the plate, your "site" is woefully trying to solicit funds to "keep" your little "organization" alive. BAD EAGLE.COM does not have a pathetic, telethon like, "tote board" begging for cash like a lost derelict.???

Posted - 11/19/2006

“I do not trust this "Carrol" person because I have conducted my own research on this "cyber-journalist" and all I see is a man desperately trying to solicit money from people, Indian and non-Indian alike, I question his motives.

He is using Dr. Yeagley here to get people to "contribute" funds to keep his web-site, up and running, so to speak.???

Contrary to the misinformation John Martin likes to spread around, NAFPS only asks for donations once a year to cover the small yearly costs of having this website hosted

Below is some discussion of the fund raising that takes place on this website;

John Martin also likes to put an article in different message boards that was published in John Lekay's Heyoka magazine which asks


He posted it here (
and here (

and here

and here

and here

He accuses Al of not being of Apache descent , and of being of Mexican Irish descent . I don't think Martin likes Mexicans because he calls Al lots of rude things to do with his Mexican heritage like “Taco head??? and “beaner???. A few examples are below

Posted - 01/11/2008

Have fun playing with yourself this weekend Chief Taco Bell.

Posted - 11/22/2006

Carrol is a little Mexcian taco-head who pops pills to make his little wee wee enlarge.

Martin repeatedly tries to make it seem like it's just Al's personal idea that people who sell ceremonies or misrepresent themselves as elders or medicine people are doing something wrong. This isn't true at all.

Martin likes to spread stories to make Native people feel angry about the movie Spirits for Sale. The stories Martin spreads not only make Al look bad but he tries to make elders look bad too.

Martin first mentions this movie on Yeagley's message board

June 15 2007
Screen shot of TS77 on Yeagley's message board complaining about the film,

Some of the lies John Martin creates are designed to offend the general public and some more specifically are targeted to offend Native people.

Like the article published by John Martin quoted from below ;

This web link no longer works, but screen shots of this article can be seen at the bottom of it ;

Posted: Aug Fri 03, 2007   Beware of racist film "Spirits for Sale".


I think she just wants to make a big impression on her Euro-trash buddies and others who have been exploiting Lakota Spirituality for decades.

Yeah right, like the average Lakota can afford to just jump on an airplane and fly to Sweden to see her stupid film "Spirits for Sale".


Lakota Grass Roots American Indian Movement leaders have received words that Arvol Looking Horse and paula Horne Mullen are going to have a showing of the Sacred Bundle at 2:00 PM at the Looking Horse complex in the Community of Green Grass on the Cheyenne River Sioux Indian reservation in North central South Dakota.

Urgency in this message is that they can't remember where exactly Arvol buried the Bundle,
( in his hectic schedule and world trips) Since Grass Has grown over the spot where Arvol buried it.

Warrior Societies, Tokala Societies and Akicita Societies are to bring their shovels and report there ASAP Monday morning to begin digging up the property to help locate it.

I have to give Martin some credit in this case as he did include the response from Annika who refuted these strange stories and accusations.

But then he said more stuff to make everyone who made the film loose credibility and try and make this film into a big controversy .

Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posted: Aug Mon 06, 2007  RE: Selling Sprirts

Annika and some fake Apache named Al Carroll apparently swindled some Sioux elders to be in their film. Al Carroll is notorious for running an anti-Indian hate site that was just recently shut down. The guy is a bigger fraud than Ward Churchill.

I don't believe anything that Annika Banfield or Al Carroll has to say, since both are obviously trying to rip-off American Indian ceremony, especially from the Sioux.

Screen shot of TS77 once again trying to discredit both this film and the many traditional elders who made it.

Screen shot of TS77trying to discredit Al Carroll and the film Spirits for Sale.

Posted - 03/18/2008

“Why can’t Al Carroll exploit his own??? tribe???? What is an admitted non-Indian doing commenting on Native Spirituality in the first place? How come Al won’t reveal his Apache “ancestry? This Swedish lady, Annika Banfield is exploiting an old Lakota man, Looking Horse. She and Al don’t give a damn about real Lakota issues, i.e. addiction, domestic violence, unemployment, teen suicide, hopelessness etc; That’s why she sent your CD back Mr. Luke.

Mrs. Banfield is just another euro new age Indian groupie. Her and “doctor??? Carroll are making a mockery of and desecrating Lakota Spirituality. Mrs. Banfield is now publicly lamenting because she was not able to recoup her financial losses because her film flopped.???

NAFPS does provide information about both Native and non native people if they are selling ceremonies , if their tribal leaders say this isn't OK and Martin frequently tries to get people upset about this by saying NAFPS is a bunch of non native people telling Native people what to do and that is “attacking “ Native people.

But, many or all the individuals Martin has defended have been non native exploiters. For example he posted the complaints of a nonnative exploiter over on Indianz.



The Standing Bear has recently been attacked by a group whose acronym is "NAFPS", for New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans. Their site address is

To learn more about what happened when I challenged their authority to sit in judgment on me, please scroll down this page to "Commentary Regarding the NAFPS Attack on the Center......."

Below is one of the things this non native woman was doing that NAFPS was objecting to

“August 18 - 27, 2006

Native American Teachings and Private Consultations with Cherokee Medicine Chief Weylin Lighteagle

Saturday & Sunday, August 19 & 20 Men's Teaching Circle and Sweat Lodge Ceremony

Cost: $250???

This is what John Martin had to say about this

Posted 11/22/2006

OK, let's expose the "real" Al Carrol, for who he really is. A self-proclaimed Mexican/Irishman of Mescalero Apache decent. Big Al, as he is known, is one of the founding Fathers of the "New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans Organization or "NAFPS".
I visited the "NAFPS" website, what a joke, they call themselves "the" Native watch-dog group, who ask for your help (MONEY) so that they can continue their vigilant work on "outing" Native Frauds.

Martin also supported John Lekay, an Englishman with an on line magazine that promoted many people falsely claiming to be entitled to a position of authority within NDN society, when these positions were only recognized by non native people. 

John Martin supported John Lekay, in pressuring the company that hosted NAFPS into shutting down .

The link below goes to publication called Native Cultural Activists Silenced Again which has a long list of comments . Those disagreeing with the activism of NAFPS are John Lekay, his supporters and TS77 AKA (John Martin ) saying many things to discredit Al Carroll, NAFPs and even the elders who are trying to defend their cultural practices from corruption.

In a couple comments Martin says the main reason the NAFPS got shut was because of Al Carroll's web blog on David Yeagley

See ya in Lawton
by Bullet proof vest
Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007

“.........Carroll is now under investigation by the LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT for, among other things "identitiy theft". He has revealed the personal info, i.e. addresses, phone numbers, places of employemnt of his victims. Al Carroll is a cultural menace, an extremely mentally disturbed individual. He has done more damage to the Native American Community than any other racist in history.

Go to and get a taste of what Carroll is dishing out. This is the primary reason why he was kicked off the internet, he will of course blame and name others, however, when the dust settles, it is Carroll who stands alone, a beacon to those who enjoy bashing American Indians.

John Martin (Enrolled Oglala, Lakota

“Carroll and his bed fellow Brent Micheal Davids have been at this game for an entire decade . What have they done for the plight of the American Indian ? What contributions have they made to assit Indian people in finding employment, overcoming addiction , domestic violence, racism ect?

Al Carroll is a snake who will attack anyone with his outlandish thories ( see David Yeagley .org )???;act=ST;f=19;t=7951 (;act=ST;f=19;t=7951)

“I told you guys that nut Al Carroll was breaking the law. I can see him now, crying over his laptop, lamenting like a woman.



John Martin is not an Elder or Spiritual leader.

Here is what the true Elders and recognized Spiritual leaders have to say about this ,

Instead Martin chooses to support non native exploiters like John Lekay , and Scarlet Kinney.

(edited to try and fix overlong links but I can't figure it out, and 1 wrong link )
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 16, 2008, 03:40:17 pm
John Lekay joined NAFPS under the user name Marlon . He is an Englishman who has an online magazine.

John Lekay's online magazine Heyoka had a thread to discuss it in research needed

Lekay /Marlon first posted here;all

About this guy

Thomas Lighteningbolt

“I was made a part of are "Ancients", they have been walking this continent for thousands and in some cases millions of years. Those people at NAFPS don't have the first clue about true mysticism. There are documented cases of mystics being able to "Bi-Locate" (to be in two places at the same time)! My point being is that if some one such as my teacher reveals himself to be Fools Crow it CAN be real! Several people I know have told me that Fools Crow has come to different people in different TIMES throughout history. Does that make him phony???

His" teacher " is apparently in some other dimension but Thomas is sure it is Fools Crow.

( what is below is quoted from the original web page – the word bizarre is now removed. )

Thomas Lighteningbolt

“Thank you for sending me a copy of that "Green Grass Proclamation" by Arvol Looking Horse. You are right, that is BIZZAR! How can he say those things? No non card carrying Indian should be allowed to carry eagle feathers? What about the Indians who have been railroaded out of their birth rights by the Government AND other Indians ie: Indians who have and are kicking out their own tribal members so they can selfishly hoard the Casino money for themselves (1,000,000,000$ goes further between 200 Indians than 2000 Indians)!

Further more, A Sun Dance leader once said "how can we not let people of other races into that arbor when all four colors of all four races hang in that Sun Dance arbor" White, Yellow, Black, Red. I am shocked that Arvol would say other races "keep out (basically)" Racism knows no bounds.

An elder said that proclamation is "evil" and "crazy", He said these people are "crazy". And who the heck is Arvol to say anything about people selling the "sacred" when he himself was (or still is) selling copies of the sacred "Star Book" ON LINE! “

Why would anybody think it matters if someone says an unnamed elder who may not even exist, said the real Lakota Spiritual leaders are evil and crazy?

Thomas Lighteningbolt

???That proclamation is ALL politics and my teacher said that politics is not Native American, it is a "white thing". Remember in our first interview I mentioned that people try to dictate who can and can't carry medicine, or be a medicine person? Politics! This whole situation is proving my point to a tee! These people are putting themselves in the place of the Great Creator! “

John Lekay

“What I do see is a pattern that Al Carroll/educated Indian attacks anyone who seems to not to fit into his compartment of what he believes an authentic medicine man should be. It looks like he took it upon himself to be the new age Tomás de Torquemada. "The hammer of heretics". A part of It appears its based on this Green Grass proclamation Why would anyone want the Bush Cheney administration telling people how to pray. That's bizarre.???
(again I am quoting the original webpage which has removed the allegation that this is 'bizarre'. a screen shot of the original statements are in the link below)

If he thinks the concern that these traditional ways be protected and maintained by Native people living in Native communities is bizarre,  Lekay must not know any real elders. it's actually a very normal concern.

Another person Lekay was promoting is Suzanne Dupree

Dupree disagrees with the way many Lakota Elders want to protect and maintain their culture and ceremonies and Dupree claims that she is the rightful authority on Lakota Spiritual matters, even though she did not grow up in the Lakota community and few if any Lakota people support her claims . ( Not one who does has yet been named and in order for these claims to be recognized to would take quite a few.)

Her reasoning is very long , detailed and is a mixture of facts, speculation presented as facts , speculation dismissing facts she doesn't like, and outright misinformation. Her whole long explanation seems designed to overwhelm peoples critical thinking abilities.

Dupree has done a lot to try to discredit Arvol Lookinghorse, and his position of authority , insisting she should be the one doing his job.

The article below, was written by one of Lekay's affiliates , and it tries to spread rumors to discredit a film about the protection of ceremonies which features many Native people and Spiritual leaders explaining why this is a problem. One of the people in the film is Arvol Lookinghorse.

Some of Dupree's (Looking Back Woman AKA LBW )'s comments can be read in the article above , and more can be seen in what Dupree ( LBW) posted in the online Rapid City Journal. This can no longer be found online but a saved upload of the web page showing her attempts to discredit Arvol Looking horse can still be seen here

One good thing Marlon/Lekay did was he posted some correspondence between Dupree and the Smithsonion Inst.. The response to Dupree shows she was questioning the accuracy of the information recorded there which supported Arvol Lookinghorse's position of Spiritual leadership.

Dupree apparently persuaded a historian to revise the history recorded in the Smithsonian Inst. - and to allow her to tell him how it should be revised


Re: Dupree Pt 2
Reply #6 on: June 01, 2007

Quoting a letter from Ray DeMallie of the Smithsonian Institute, speaking to Dupree;

“Later this spring, after our semester ends, I plan to make a trip to Washington during which I will have the opportunity to visit the National Anthropological Archives. In the meantime, I will write to Rob Leopold and send him a revised and streamlined catalog entry, with the request that he substitute it for the old one. Before I do so, I am attaching it below for your comments, to see if you think it is appropriate.

I will ask that this be deleted from the catalog entry. “

Just before Lekay posted this correspondence thinking it was proof of Dupree's claims, Dupree posting under the user name LBW and mentioned that people should check out the archived information

Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2007

for more archival information that was collected between 1964-1967, that I had no way of manipulating...go read it for yourself, and you will see with your own eyes where the deception started, and by what family

What was removed from the archives was all references to the Lookinghorse family as it was recorded in relationship to the duties that were passed to Arvol Looking horse.

You can see a saved copy of the Smithsonian web page before Dupree appears to have persuaded the Smithsonian to change it, in the link below

And below is the page after all references to the Lookinghorse family have been deleted!92671!0

Lekay also had interviewed Kevin Annette and was quite outraged when NAFPS members pointed out that many Native people felt Annette had misused their personal information and their trust . A thread explaining these concerns is in the link below ;

Lekay was also promoting a guy who advertises himself as a psychotherapist.;all

This psychotherapist got mad at Al for questioning his professional training and some of his personal beliefs that were expressed in his writing , so he wrote an article to make Al look like he had a big psychological problem. Part of it is quoted below.

To John Le Kay, Editor Heyoka Magazine - July 03, 2007 - 2:00 pm CST – Jaye A. La Vallee

“I see how Alton Carroll focuses on sexual deviance and sexual perpetration issues… this along with talks of violence and threat cause me deep concern because it appears that he has a deeper sexual issues, possibly unresolved disturbances from being victimized or perpetrated as young person - homeless, surviving and living the street life. He displays through his accusations that sexual issues are deep and strong on his agenda and that he relies on this deviance as a way of shaming others, likely to deflect his own history. “
???Like so many homeless children of ethnic dark-skinned minorities, struggling for their identity, especially ones who were separated from their roots, these tend to suffer shame even more deeply. From disconnected abusive parents. They, we are at higher risk for sexual deviance… because of family dysfunction and sexual and violence issues and the loss of nurturing and sustaining affection.???
???His emphasis and referral to other people’s sexual deviance issues of others leads me to feel he is suffering with and from this issue. As well, he offers – no solution and has taken one him self.
“I feel that Alton Carroll has unresolved deep-seeded sexual deviance issues and got then as most often have, through a troubled, violent, alcoholic childhood… in the family of origin and that he probably went on to cope and survive abuse, by doing what was necessary and required when he was living – the homeless life in the streets… I believe this is where he was forced to sell his own plasma and take part in other dangerous street life high-risk situations.???

I thought psychologists are supposed to avoid personal relationships and emotional entanglements with people they are applying their knowledge to . Otherwise there is always a danger of projection of self onto others.

When NAFPS members continued to insist that only Native communities have the right to decide who is authoritative and who is entitled to positions of Spiritual leadership and we would not agree with Lekay's selections, Lekay began making complaints to the company hosting NAFPS that this website was libeling him and the people he was promoting as American Indian Spiritual leaders.

John Martin / Tallsoldier77 registered here as Steve_w , and began supporting Lekay .

Lekay even did an article in his Heyoka magazine titled “John Martin on NAFPS???

It is not on line anymore but it was copied and is still posted here


???This interaction is with a man named John Martin. A full blooded Lakota who went on the forum under the pseudonym Steve W to question Al Carroll about his hate speech, libeling others and his claims of being a Mescalero apache. Al Carroll was claming Steve W was John LeKay.

Lekay defended John Martin's buddy David Yeagley .

John Lekay

???Or when really pushed, he will fabricate and say that full blooded Lakota John Martin has threatened his parents as another excuse for not giving his mother's maiden name. Then he tops it off with labeling him a white supremacist.

He has also used the same strategy on David Yeagley who is Comanche. Like a mantra, he repeats these words and labels hoping they will stick. In Mr. Yeagley's case, Mr. Carroll has even taken out a website using Yaegley's name. Another of Mr. Carrol's associates, called Brent Michael David, has done the same.

This is how fanatical and extreme he has become that he would even use another person's name in any way he can to attract attention to himself. '

Lekay also recruited a woman named Robin to give him an interview.

Robin AKA Raven AKA Raven-walkingstick AKA Kwa-kwen and her friend Joyce aldridge /Troxell AKA Angela AKA walking-soft AKA weheli were members of NAFPS for about a year until they became involved in what seemed to be a petty dispute over Al allowing someone they didn't like to join NAFPS. Because of this disagreement they both began spreading around a rather distorted version of what had happened . As it turned out it's unlikely either of these women were who they claimed to be , and their purpose in their participation here appears to have been  a lot more about role playing on line,  than a commitment to protect vulnerable people from frauds, or what they claimed as their own people and culture from exploitation.

The full story about this dispute can be found in the link below;

More information on Robin's friend Joyce can be found in this next link

Lekay's complaints to the company that hosted NAFPS scared them and for about a week NAFPS was shut down.

Tallsoldier77 bragged about this on David Yeagley's BadEagle message board, attributing this to John Lekay and David Yeagley.;act=ST;f=19;t=7951


“I told you guys that nut Al Carroll was breaking the law. I can see him now, crying over his laptop, lamenting like a woman.



When NAFPS was shut down, an article called Native Cultural Activists Voices Silenced Again was written and published on an indymedia site, and Lekay and his friends continued to post comments arguing that the people they wanted to promote were not frauds and what real NDNS and elders were saying was wrong.

John Lekay kept insisting he had been libeled by NAFPS members because they pointed out his dominating behavior and assumptions of entitlement were racist ...

After a short time of NAFPS being off line, another service provider was found ....

But many of the stories and lies Lekay told are still online or copied and published in other websites .
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 17, 2008, 09:10:43 pm
As I mentioned yesterday , I edited reply #4 to include more information today. I wanted to keep this in something of a chronological order, and yesterday I didn't have it together to include everything in reply #4 . Sorry to do things a bit backwards ..but maintaining some semblence of a sequence in the order of  these 3 posts above, will hopefully be a bit less mind boggling..
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 02, 2008, 05:05:54 pm
OK , I got it more together now ...

I see Betsy Ashby is posting over on Indianz under the name "Guardian" and she has now provided a link to the aforementioned personal ad which is still in the web archive , and which has Al's old email address.  I won't post the link here but people can find it in the link below , if they gotta see it.

I notice in her post about this , Betsy has altered the original ad , omitting the part where it says the mans name is "Carl" , and she neglects to point out that the way this website is set up , absolutely anyone can post an ad using anybodies email address.  The archived page where people posted from is below.

As I also see her bragging about how much she knows about cyberspace and the holes in security it seems odd she would neglect to point out that anybody who felt like embarrassing Al could place this ad.

It really is easy to install the "ignore poster" feature:

I could do it for them in a few minutes with their permission. Actually, I could do it for them in a few minutes without their permission ...but that would be very rude...not to mention criminal ROFL (this is an intentional funny :-)

page 2
Well ...if I ever decided to take off my White Hat, you KNOW whose platter would get slagged first! ROFL

Admin probably disabled html and the [ img ] tag for security reasons. I do not allow any "get" commands on my forums either. There are MANY reasons not to allow cross site requests. For instance, each time someone loads a topic containing a image hosted on my server, my site stats bot records their IP, browser, etc.

You can redirect users, steal log-in details, etc. with cross site scripting. There are other ways to prevent tag script injection, but just disabling the img tag feature is the easiest.

page 2
White Hats absolutely DO NOT engage in unauthorized hacking, and are the exact polar opposite of Black Hats. White Hats help secure machines AGAINST hacking attempts. There are White Hat clubs where members hack on each others boxes with PERMISSION, both to learn, and to expose vulnerabilities in other club member's networks. Frequently White Hats are hired to attack a system, by that system's owner, because the owner knows the White Hat will not leave a destructive payload.

I have to wonder why Betsy would continue to draw attention to this peculiar ad , when it obviously could have been placed by anyone , and Al has clearly let her know it was not placed by him.  I have never seen anything in Al actions that suggests he secretly wants more than one wife , or that he ever uses traditions out of context.  Al tells me he did not post this , and I see no reason not to believe him.

What seems a lot more likely is someone maliciously placed that ad in order to embarrass and discredit him. Betsy seems like a smart lady . Presumably she is aware of this.
What I find most peculiar is why is Betsy Ashby going out of her way to discredit the work done by NAFPS when she claims to care about exposing frauds ?

Surely Betsy is smart enough to realize when she unfairly discredits people who support the protection of ceremonies , she is indirectly damaging respect for the Elders who are struggling to protect their ceremonies?   

She seems to be justifying her hatred of NAFPS by claiming she is better because she makes sure she has documentation , but in the thread in the first link , Betsy also admits to defending Brooke Edwards , though now she admits to not knowing how to tell if a tribal ID card is a fake . And as already pointed out ,  when she doesn't like someone she appears very willing to ignore obvious information that casts her so called documentation into doubt. 

I agree that people posting in NAFPS all make mistakes occaisionally, and these mistakes should be rectified even if we don't like some stuff about the people involved. But it seems odd Betsy would have such a enduring grudge against Al for allegedly mistaking Brooke E for Brooke S , as she herself also makes mistakes sometimes. Why would she carry such a grudge if she really wholeheartedly supports exposing frauds - which is the basic work done by NAFPS?

Something is not adding up here....

Oh...  and I see some what I quoted from in my previous post on Betsy Ashby has been removed . Perhaps she realized some of what she said did not reflect favorably on her. I did save the evidence this was there ,  if anyone needs it ...
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: frederica on November 02, 2008, 08:27:55 pm
Brook Medicine Eagle has been on fraud list for a long time.  Betsy Ashby goes from list to list trying to get something started.  Most of the time she leaves when no one pays attention to her.  She's non-NDN, claims to be some sort of Pagan and it seems she does the same to them.             You have to scroll about half of the page to find their comments about her.
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 02, 2008, 11:54:43 pm
Hi Frederica

I don't know if any of the accusations or counter accusations on that website are true. I don't know enough about the Pagan community to judge , but some of those names people are using sound very fanciful.

One thing for sure is Betsy seems to enjoy a fight , but so far as I have seen , her idea of justice doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe she just enjoys trouble like you say. I always imagine people have some sort of reasons for what they do. LOL Silly me.
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: frederica on November 03, 2008, 12:45:40 am
Yep, I don't know anything about them either.  Saw them a while back when she was on another list going after somebody. Googled her  name and all that came up.  Look like just allegations to me, and they are old.  But I believe most on are well aware of Brooke Medicine Eagle.  What I remember she has the belief Brooke Medicine Shield is one of the "good girls".  Not a fraud, and that is why she left.  But she using the old LeKay stuff also, like what someone else did when they were displeased.  Just because they dredge it up, doesn't make it more true, just they all know where to go to retrieve it.
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: 180IQ on January 23, 2009, 03:49:07 am
There's a new antagonist to add here but I will leave it to someone else to post as I am not sure what needs to be said. But I will say that you only catch flack when you're over the target!
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: educatedindian on April 25, 2009, 01:20:37 am
I've gotten some emails from people asking about Ashby's latest long long looooong series of attacks over at Indianz.

I haven't worried too much about Ashby's latest failed attempts to "get" me. Like always, I generally ignore it and just keep trying to do right. If someone is so dumb as to believe her, they'd probably believe in Elvis being killed by UFOs.

But to briefly sum up who Ashby is and what she's claiming, for anyone new to this:   

Betsy Ashby of the self styled Pagan Resource Center of Newport News VA first came after NAFPS and after me personally because NAFPS dared to criticize her idol, Brooke Edwards AKA "Medicine Eagle", a fraud who has spent several decades posing as a Crow medicine woman. Ashby's pagan gathering also hosted a phony "Miami shaman" the Miami had never heard of. It was Ashby's bad luck that I was going to Purdue at the time, and the Miami Nation were not far from me.

Ashby's response in her letters and elsewhere was memorable for a number of things:

She claimed there had been no genocide against NDNs.
She claimed there hadn't even been that many NDNs in the Americas anyway.
She even gave a number, less than 20,000, as supposedly all the NDNs killed by Euro invaders, and claimed NDNs killed far more Europeans and Americans, based on what she pulled from an old racist book.
She also told a story where she bragged Brooke Edwards had tricked a sheriff into shooting an unarmed AIM member protesting her exploiter ceremonies.

Finally she pledged to "spend every cent she had" to shut us down" for daring to criticize exploiters like Brooke Edwards.

That started a now-ten-year-old campaign against NAFPS and myself that must've taken up hundreds of hours on her part, spreading rumors and lies one more ridiculous than the other.

Ashby even set up an supposed anti fraud site. The problem is, she attacks mostly the least harmful ones out there, people with likely distant NDN ancestry who don’t know any better. These are mostly heritage groups she’s pillorying. If she were truly sincere, she’d go after the worst abusers, Nuage frauds like her beloved imposter-for-lots-of-cash Brooke Edwards. If she were truly sincere, she’d apologize and admit her mistake in defending this fraud, and she’d apologize also for smearing the ones out to stop frauds like Edwards, namely any NDN with any sense and any human being with a conscience

The latest nonsense: Supposedly I'm a white nationalist or Nazi whose been pretending to be NDN.

That one has just about everybody at Indianz laughing or their jaws dropping in shock from something so crazy.

I'm about as dark as Adam Beach or Jimmy Smitts. My photo has been posted online enough for anyone to see.

As reluctant as I am to go into my personal life...

When I first went to school, Texas was still segregating students by race within the schools. I spent my first year in what was nicknamed "the Mexican kindergarten."

In my teens and early twenties I was part of a street gang, Los Cycos, the San Antonio chapter of the gang Suicidal Cycos, founded by the old punk/metal band Suicidal Tendencies. The gang was multiracial, mostly Mexican, but also whites, Blacks, NDNs, and plenty of mixed heritage people like me.

We spent most of our time beating up skinheads, esp the local neo-Nazis, a chapter of Stormfront (Yeagley's buddies), and sometimes confronted the Confederate Hammerskins in Dallas when they came down or when we went to Dallas. I'm sure they would laugh also that I'm now being smeared as "one of them." And by someone who is much closer to their beliefs, namely Ashby.

My mom is Apache and Mexican. My wife is Cuban, and like most guajiras, she's of mixed blood. My brother in law and my niece are Jewish, and my sister converted to Judaism when they married, though she no longer practices.

I've been fortunate enough in my life to work with, for, or learn from many great NDN scholars. Among them:

Angela Cavendar Wilson (Dakota)
Joyce Kievet (Eastern Band Cherokee)
Pat Etter (Pottawatomi)
James Riding In (Pawnee)

Not to mention my hatewatch site exposing white supremacist David Yeagley,, that’s managed to undo most of the damage he’s tried to do to Natives, leaving him a pitiful marginalized joke with a tiny handful of racist followers. I certainly don’t take all the credit for that. Good people like Barbara Duggan and Beverly Isaacs and Brent Michael Davids have done just as much.

And NAFPS is made up of NDNs from dozens of tribes, whites, Blacks, Americans, Canadians, Australians, Europeans, Latin Americans, Native traditionalists, Christians, Moslems, pagans, atheists, etc.

Plus there are all the many other Native activists we've worked with over the years, and anti racist groups, listed here:

Some "white nationalist"....

She's also attacked me for supposedly being Catholic, as though that were a bad thing. Someone tell the Yaqui. Tell Mexican NDNs and NDNs all over Latin America. Really, I'm as Catholic as Woody Allen is Jewish. I was sent to Catholic school, but I don't practice.

All Ashby does by that line of attack is show she's a religious bigot in addition to her racism.

And ironically, some of the good people at Indianz uncovered the fact that her friend Yngona Desmond (who was kicked out of NAFPS for being a racist) was sponsoring a fraud posing as a Sammi shaman.

She's also claiming rather bizarrely I "wanted a harem." It seems she can't decide what racist insult to settle on by using an Arab bashing stereotype like that, and against an Apache/Mexican she claims is "white nationalist."

Again, Ashby's attacks backfired, since someone at Indianz uncovered that she lives in a polygamy relationship with two other women. Her bizarre defense is that it's supposedly celibate. That's irrelevant, (not to mention strangely prudish and anti sex) and it's still a polygamy relationship.

Yes, Ashby's campaigns have been a spectacular and downright laughable failure. I'd call her another Ken Starr, but at least Starr found himself a semen stained dress for his six or seven years of effort. Ashby's been at it longer, over ten years, and if anything she's helped us grow stronger and driven people to check us out. Liking what they see, they stick around and pass along what we say to others.

In the time since Ashby first went after us, NAFPS has gone from about 200 members to close to 1000 now.

We went from a little noticed yahoo group to a resource used by Native activists, universities, museums, Nuage survivors, and yes, pagan groups aching to know the truth and fed up with racist Nuage nonsense of the type Ashby peddles.

Ashby certainly hasn’t hurt me one bit. I’ve gone from a beginner at grad school to a Fulbright Scholar with my first published book on an academic press, as well as all the many thanks I constantly get for my work at NAFPS.

Thanks, Ms. Ashby. The more you attack us, the stronger we've gotten, and the more support we've gotten.

And if anyone cares to, they can repost this or link to it. Just please repost it in its entirety.
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: susanh on April 26, 2009, 02:57:41 am
Warning to ALL on Brooke Medicine Eagle & Sunny Babba AKA Robert Simonson.

Brooke medicine Eagle Edwards has a new name on her web-site.

"Chalise Brooke Medicine Eagle" She is now operating out of Washington state. See her new web page for updates.

She still asking for donations to the" Earth Heart Foundation" which is not a Non-profit organization. And was never formed.
Whatever money whe made while living on the land she called hers in Montana < which I don't believe was much >  was fraud......


Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 27, 2009, 10:23:30 pm
I've been reading stuff over on As much as the fighting that happens over there often seems pointless, it's interesting because obviously whats being disputed is stuff people feel strongly about, and people have their reasons. So I like to read over there and try and get a better understanding of the different points of veiw .

Betsy posts over there quite a lot under the nic "Guardian". She seems to be quite a character. She is a good researcher ,  smart ,  she's even witty and funny in a shockingly nasty way. She does dig up some good information , and some of it I've found helpful, and some of her complaints have some basis in reality.

But ,on the other hand, she seems to be going out of her way to discredit the information provided here. though she makes some valid points, mixed in with this is a lot of misinformation. I don't like to see the work we do here discredited for bogus reasons , i don't like to see people harrassed for what looks like no good reason, and it's really hard to watch divisions inflammed between people who are already hurting , who need to be able to work together towards the same goals , without saying anything.

I like to try to identify and support peoples legitimate needs, and Betsy claims to have some. She says she is there because she was hurt by a faux Indian and she thinks that is a place she can learn how to distinguish what she calls faux Indians from real Indians. .

Posted - 11/02/2008
As I said when I first posted here, I came for the Faux Indian buffet, and I have NOT been disappointed ! You are here, in ABUNDANCE, and that pleases me greatly. I will eat my fill, and then come back for seconds "Vendetta" is not that far off the mark. What Faux Indians did to me when I had shingles in my cranial nerve and was pumped full of prescription narcotics that I have ZERO tolerance for, is as fresh in my mind today as it was when the event occurred. Unlike you and the majority of people, I was not BLESSED with forgetfulness, ESPECIALLY when it comes to traumatic experiances. What was done to me will NEVER happen to another if I have anything to say about it ....and I do.

Posted - 11/02/2008
..........Faux Indians specialize in cruelty as a means of control. Faux Indians served me the single most painful experience of my adult life. What happened to me will NEVER happen to another if I have anything to say about it ....and I do.

I wonder who these people were? I haven't seen where she has specifically named them or said what they did to her. Is this someone who is listed here? Is this someone NAFPS could list a warning about?

Having been hurt , it seem Betsy wants to learn how to identify what hurt her so she can avoid this problem in the future and so she can pass this information on to the pagan community .

Posted - 11/15/2008 is one of the only Indian controlled forums I have found where (some) real Indians are openly confronting the frauds. It is almost like putting an original work of art and a clever forgery side by side to learn to tell all the differences between the two. Separate the two look similar to an untrained eye, but when viewed together, the differences are glaring.

If you know of a place where I can get more information about Faux Indians than here, I would be VERY grateful to know where?

If Betsy is sincere in this , I am having a really hard time understanding where Betsy is coming from because while she says she is wanting to make sure no one else gets hurt by a fraud, and knows she doesn't know how to identify the problems to avoid,  she assumes she knows enough to know the information provided on NAFPS isn't worth listening to. She even brags about having NAFPS repeatedly shut down.
So ask 'ol Al if my lawyers are so bad, where did his first two websites go? Wanna try three for three? I noticed you did not include a link to the old post ...

This is also mentioned in the link below when she is said to be involved in silencing a couple Native anti fraud groups in 2002 .

Posted - 12/31/2008 :  10:00:19 AM
My only contact with Edwards was AFTER Carroll incorrectly identified her on his website. Yes, I did have his site yanked ...twice...because Carroll STOLE her photograph off her websit and then put someone else's name on it.I did the same thing last month when Diabolos stole my photo and put another woman's name on it. His site is gone too. Freedom of Speech is not Freedom to STEAL!

Yes, I did believe Edwards was enrolled in a Federally Recognized Tribe, whereas I already knew Schavia was not. Edwards posted her "Enrollment card" and a Tribal letter "proving" her enrollment on her website...and they are still there. I fell for it. Recently I sent a letter to the Crow Nation, but have recieved no reply as yet. I MUST have proof she is not another "Garrett" before I profile her on Faux Indians. I DO beleive what the Indians on this forum have told me, but "Someone told me so on the Internet Judge" just does not work when one of these mutts drags me to court.

For someone who had never met Brooke that sounds like a pretty frivolous reason to get an informative website shut down ...

Posted - 03/26/2009 : 10:07:09 PM
I had no CLUE I was not helping nice Indian people until 2005 I fell for their Faux Indian CRAP hook line and sinker. I gave them money, built and hosted their websites, you name it.

Posted - 11/15/2008
But I am curious, and hoping you can help me understand your reasoning, as to why you brought that to which is not a haven for the type of behaviors you are seeking to address via your cyber skills.

Posted - 11/16/2008 : 12:10:28 AM
If all Indians were color coded like other minority races this would be soooooo much easier....but clearly they are not. Some very real Indians are as light skinned as I and in some Tribes (especially along the East Coast) skin tone and physical features are a genetic crapshoot after 300+ years of interbreeding. This really does not help when trying to sort out the frauds at all. Throw in a couple brown skinned fakes from the Middle East pretending to be Lakota and geeeeezzzzzz it is like looking for a needle in a pound of pins.

So while i feel some sympathy to her confusion and wanting to protect others from being misled , I am wondering why she is so against information provided on this message board and why she seems to want to be the only one to convey to others what she says tribes have to say on these issues.

I'm also concerned because while Betsy is focusing on learning to identify the problem , i think she may have prematurely leaped to the conclusion that the problem is something she calls " faux Indians" .I basically agree with how she has identified the problem , in the definition she posted on her  website.

What I like about this definition is that it focuses on confronting faux entitlements and not peoples racial identity .

ww w.out ofthedark .co m/Fa uxIndia ns /in dex.htm l

Quoting Betsy Ashby
What is a "Faux Indian" you ask?
Anyone who is not a member of a Federally Recognized Indian Tribe who is running around claiming to represent, teach about, or collect money for "Native American Indians" in some shape, form or fashion....usually with a 501(c)(3)

We coined the phrase "Faux Indian" so we get to write the definition too. If you don't like it, feel free to hit your back button, create your own phrases and build your own website .

The people profiled on these pages have established themselves as PUBLIC FIGURES and in doing so, they have opened themselves up to public scrutiny and criticism. They are self proclaimed Medicine People, Chiefs, Spiritual Teachers, Clan Mothers, Directors of 501(c)3 's or non recognized "Tribal" Leaders of some kind. This site is not here to harass private individuals, it is here to monitor and report on the questionable activities of people who have taken on a Leadership position in the community. Self proclaimed Gurus only...NO PRIVATE GRIPES...we have another site for that

I think most NAFPS members would agree with this definition. The problem is, I have seen Betsy repeatedly accuse people of being faux Indians when there is no evidence they are engaged in any of the behaviors described above , and instead she tends to lable people as "faux Indian" for no other crime than having some native descent which they claim , without any more entitlements attached.

There may be an understandable reason for this. I think the problems are complicated enough there is a tendancy for all sides to get overwhelmed and start trying to use simple definitions of race to create self protective boundaries. As many people have been legitimately hurt by having these boundaries violated, this gets even further complicated by peoples feelings of resentment and anger.

This is a bit awkward because I want to reference what I am saying, but i don't want to drag disputes from other boards over here, especially as what I'm wanting to point out is interwoven with a lot of other personal disputes and i don't want to misrepresent anyone by presenting things out of context.

Below is links to just a few of the discussions where the subject of peoples identity as “ faux Indians “ has come up .

earth, ajibic, diabolos, keely, moot... PMs

long cut n paste for Betsy Boopsy


Kangi aka Raven aka Delano Eagle aka Eva, etc.

Is this you Danny Moon?

Danny Moon Leave Earth7 the hell alone!

What I see here is people who are of some Native descent who aren't enrolled being repeatedly confronted for being 'faux Indians “even though there is no reason to believe they have ever “ claimed to represent, teach about, or collect money for "Native American Indians" in some shape, form or fashion....usually with a 501(c)(3)” and even though people who are enrolled Indians have repeatedly defended these people and pointed this out.

I am concerned because i see what looks to be innocent mixed blood people being confronted in the most inflamatory, derogatory and humiliating way possible.

Betsy frequently uses language like “taco turd”, “ lying mexicali poser”, “skank”, when speaking to these mixed blood people. Even after it's been shown her accusations are groundless she continues to harass and degrade these people.  ( see page 6- 9 of the “is this you Danny Moon?" thread  for one example )

When Native people who post over on Indianz have tried to explain that unerolled descendents , who really are of native descent but don't claim to be anything they aren't, and who aren't claiming any faux entitlements should not be accused of being faux Indians, these enrolled Native people have also been subject to harrassment, or told they are also a faux Indian . In the threads below after Betsy was repeatedly told to stop , and she refused to listen, some comments were made about not liking clueless White people who don't listen who feel they have a right to tell Indians what to do . These comments were made after months of trying to explain this to Betsy , but they were then taken out of context and Earth was accused of being a racist .

So here I am

What can i say

A Little Note to Visiting Germans

This situation seems to be complicated by the fact Betsy is lending support to some important issues which affect the native community, and there is some native people who have come to appreciate this support .

Unfortunantly for mixed blood people, many exploiters use claims of mixed racial identity to weasle their way into a faux claim to entitlements. As can be seen in the heated discussions that happen here , these gray areas are loaded with many complex issues, many different opinions and many people who just aren't interested in considering the needs of anyone but themselves. Understandably a lot of Native people get feeling completely fed up with mixed blood people and their faux entitlements , and as the problem is most easily identified as mixed blood people, someone like Betsy who advocates their extermination offers a tempting alternative to trying to resist their never ending demanding and often manipulative behaviors.

While I understand why enrollment is the simplest way to define who is and isn't entitled to Native identity / resources / culture, it isn't so clear why this is important to Betsy Ashby. It seems Betsy is a bit weak on understanding the complex multi layered internal definitions of right and wrong, and in her desire to define who is a faux Indian she is trying to create a simplified red and white definition of right and wrong which is defined purely on the basis of someones racial idenity .

I dont got a single identity.

Obviously. Do you not know that is what makes you a Faux Indian?

Does that mean a mixed blood Indian can't identify as mixed?

No, that means that a person either has a single identity ...or none at all

The comment below also shows Betsy has a bit of an attitude about mixed blood people .... In this comment Betsy is reffering to when she asked Al about the ad she found advertising for a second wife. It's interesting because it sounds like the fact that he was mixed blood and Mexican / Apache descent was more of the issue in her mind than the search for a second wife.

Posted - 11/01/2008
Being my usual subtle self, I confronted Carroll with this post containing his claim to be of mixed race just like the people he was accusing, and he went off the deep end ....

I've never seen Al accuse anyone of being mixed race ...Culturally clueless yes, but I've never seen Al focus on a persons BQ. Why would Betsy even say she “confronted” him with being mixed race as if in Betsy's mind being mixed blood is some kind of is wrongdoing .... ? As far back as i can find postings on line, Al has mentioned being mixed blood . It's seems like “confronting” someone for having toes or ears...

What I am seeing is Betsy frequently confronts people calling them a faux Indian using this simplified racial definition , and not the behavioral definition as is described on her website.

I really don't agree with this. People can change behavior that creates problems but they can't change their race . Humiliating people will not gain their respect or their coperation.

Even more bizarrely, Betsy says she wants to annihilate all faux Indians.

Hijack p 3

Posted - 11/13/2008 : 08:01:42 AM
I was completely truthful when I came to this forum ...and to Donna's board and every other similar list I have joined. My purpose is the COMPLETE and TOTAL Annihilation of EVERY Faux Indian I find.....ANYWHERE! I do not care where they hide, or who they hide behind,...every scam they are running, every lie they are living, I WILL EXPOSE and DESTROY! All the resources and abilities I have at my disposal are dedicated to this end until I can find no more!

I can't support anyone who wants to annihilate mixed blood people, as besides being racist it's impractical as the only way to accomplish this wouild be genocide .

Even Betsy seems to realize this is impractical , and I'm not really sure betsy has the genocidal ambitions logicaly connected thought processes would lead me to believe, because she just recently announced she thinks mixed blood people are going to be the only race of the future and she thinks this is really really kewl ...

Posted - 04/22/2009
Mixed bloods ie: us mutts, are in the process of becoming a distinctly new race of humanity... one which I think will eventually span the entire planet in another 800-1000 years or so. One race made from ALL the other races. At our present rate of interbreeding, I calculate North and Central America should be populated primarily by this new race of mixed race people in 300 years or less. I know the thought of this happening upsets many Indians AND Anglos, but to me fighting the process is kinda like arguing about the weather.
While some mutts (and full bloods) bemoan this condition, I think it is VERY VERY KEWL!!
I'm not sure if she means she thinks it's kewl that people who think like her will soon be able to hunt down and annihilate everyone , or if she saying she thinks it's kewl that in 300 years everybody will be what she calls faux Indians? ( I guess that would be assuming people like her don't annihilate their forebearers first ????? )

To be honest I have the impression Betsy is a bit confused.

For example, coming back to her strong dislike of NAFPS , I am still having a really hard time understanding why Betsy seems so determined to undermine the work we do here, and why she seems to have such an enduring grudge against Al.

Part of the problem seems to be that although Betsy claims to want to learn how to identify frauds and exploiters, she seems to be stubronly refusing to cooperate with definitions that don't fit in with her own established beliefs.

From what I have seen thus far (and I had to learn this the HARD way) American Indians do not charge for anything of a Spiritual nature and generally only expect payment for physical labor or material services rendered. This is almost unique to Cultures which had no monetary system prior to Colonization.

[edit] In various other Cultures there is no separation between Spiritual and Material issues at all...the two are

one and the same. Not paying for assistance with a Spiritual matter is no different than having someone chop a cord of wood for you and not paying them. In many of these Traditions, the payment is completely determined by the same extremely intricate binary system of Divination that is used to assist the Petitioner.


Likewise for Traditions all over the planet that have intermixed with other Cultures and used money(coin) for thousands of years. Cards, bones, stones, shells, astrology, fire, water, music, etc.,.. are all used by different Cultures to determine who is taught and/or given what, when and for how much, if anything.

So, within Betsy's own belief system charging for ceremonies is OK , and she seems to refuse to accept that in most Native traditions, and also in many European traditions , someone commercializing ceremonies and Prayer is seen as a serious violation of the Sacred. Because Betsy won't  accept this,  she sets herself up to miss the most obvious clues someone isn't really a Spitiual leader or strongly connected with an indigenous community and she can't see that what someone like Brooke Medicine Eagle is DOING is sufficent to know they aren't practicing the traditional ways they claim. I don't see where it matters if brooke medicine Eagle is enrolled or not, unless she was only selling ceremonies to people enrolled in her own tribe. Then that would be an entirely internal issue for the tribe to deal with. But Betsy continues to try to define the problem purely as a persons enrollment.

I am trying to untangle an old puzzle without dragging an enrolled? Indian through the mud AGAIN just because her name is similar to a fraud's :-(I DO understand that some Enrolled Indians are teaching Anglos things other enrolled Indians think they should not be sharing, but to be blunt.. that is not my business. My focus is on the Faux Indians, not the real ones who are offending other real ones. I am not even going to try to open that can of worms

I am NOT trying to start a flame fest ! I know many Indians do not approve of what this woman is is your absolute right. All I want to know is one thing PLEASE ?

Is this woman an enrolled member of the Crow Nation as she publicly claims?

Nice she agrees native people have a right to say this is wrong , but I have to wonder why she doesn't feel members of  NAFPS have the right to support the Native people who say this is wrong. Betsy has to know many many traditionalists and Elders have said the same thing. This is not a definition members of NAFPS invented all on their own.

part 2 will be added in a few minuts ...
(just edited for typos and garbled wording )
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 27, 2009, 10:41:36 pm
Part 2
It seems to me , her idea that the only people who have a role in discouraging exploitation are people enrolled in the same tribe as the exploiters is really impractical. If it is “anglos” who are providing rewards and encouraging Native people to ignore their Elders , these same “anglos” have responsibility for who and what they are empowering.

I think we all agree if an enrolled Native person is providing support only to other enrolled Native people , any problems that comes up are soley within the jurisdicition of the Native community. But as soon as an enrolled person begins serving a non native community , if there is a problem, the reality is that problem  has it's roots and solutions in both communities. The definitions of what is and isn't appropriate use of cultural ways needs to come from Elders living in culturally strong Native communities , but the solution to stopping exploitation , needs to come through a respectful and cooperative relationship between both communities.

Posted - 11/03/2008
You said "No self respecting actual Native person would do what she does. " and this is EXACTLY the problem. Non Indians DO NOT know what is and is not acceptable in the Indian community (con...)

I am trying to educate my community about your community.

Betsy knows , she just doesn't want to listen. I wonder why ?

Posted - 02/06/2009 : 03:27:19 AM

quote:Originally posted by Fire_Brand
P.S Guardian.
As I have already said in one of these threads, I don't think there is anything wrong with you going after exploiters and predators. I think you doing that is a good thing since it is a huge problem.

I just think you should stop at that cause the rest such as who is Native and who is not etc is none of your business.

Now this post makes absolutely NO sense to me at all??
If I do not learn who is "native" and who is not, as defined by Indians, then how will I know who is an exploiter?

Posted - 02/07/2009 : 09:56:43 AM

quote:Originally posted by Fire_Brand
I don't necessarily hate Guardian or anything. I just think she should stick to busting predators and exploiters and that is that.

Have no fear, I will.

However, it will not be YOUR perception of "predators and exploiters" that I will be using as my definition.

I'm glad she understands the importance of being selective about who she give the authority to define this, but I think she still has a long long long way to go when it comes to fine tuning her ability to make sensible choices in who she listens to. .

For example just recently over on I see LAKOTA_SIOUXPERMAN AKA John Martin is back to his old tricks ... He had a disagreement with a female poster over there and dealt with it by getting  verbally aggressive and lewd .

LAKOTA_SIOUXPERMAN Posted - 03/10/2009
You want some drama white lady? See if you can wrap your big mouth around my huge Lakota cock you stinky skank.

FU very much


In one of the links above, titled “is this you Danny Moon “ Betsy decided she was interested in confronting someone selling ceremonies as this person had the same name as Danny Moon who is a poster over on who criticized her . John Martin had previously said he supported Betsy 110% . it seems he likes the fact she isn't wanting to interfer with native people who start a business selling ceremonies and she is only going after people who aren't enrolled. Danny is of Mexican descent. For some reason ,  John Martin  has been bugging Danny for years, accusing him of being Al Carroll.

In the past, John Martin has defended people like Scarlet Kinny as having a right to charge for ceremonies, but he got very angry and threatening with the poster Danny Moon when Betsy found an ad showing someone also called Danny Moon selling Lakota ceremonies... Once he found out it wasn't the same person, and it was 2 people with the same name, Martin said he didn't think there was really a problem – and then instead of apologizing, and seemingly for no reason at all, both him and Betsy bizarrely continued to accuse the Danny of saying and doing other things he clearly could be proven to have not done.

But putting all the personal disputes that happen over there aside, what I thought was interesting was Betsy was willing to imagine even an individual as obviously whacky as John Martin has the right to decide when it's Ok the collectively owned Spiritual practices of the Lakota people are being exploited – and even when Betsy must know many Lakota Elders have clearly said this exploitation is not OK.

IF LS is satisfied with the data regarding the person who is exploiting HIS Spiritual beliefs, kewl.

Why would Betsy choose to ignore these many Elders and instead listen to one nutty individual. ..?

Thats kind of like assuming any American can say it's OK for China to start logging the National Parks.

And interestingly, although John martin has always used the fact some NAFPS members are European as a way to discredit what we do here, he likes and supports Betsy Ashby.

More to the point he probably really likes the power she is willing to give him.

Which probably leads into the strange accusations in the link below that NAFPS is secretly connected to White Nationalists. The bottom line seems to be this is a discussion about power, who has it, and who is serving whom.

Oakland "rave" to make mockery of Native cultures

The information provided by NAFPS does discourage non native people from displacing the authority of the true leaders of indigenous peoples and empowering themselves through using native identiies , culture and resources, but it also discourages non native people from empowering people like John Martin as Spiritual leaders. Not that Martin has ever claimed this. It seems some people like him feel really resentful of a motley group of people like NAFPS getting in the way of them doing whatever they like with their own culture. While I understand this point of view, I can't support it, and Betsy seems to be inflamming and exploiting these feelings for her own reasons .

I don't think something like who is supporting ' White nationalists” AKA “White dominence” AKA non natives or natives serving nonnative needs at the expence of their own people can, be defined along purely racial defintions anymore than “faux Indains “ is something that can be defined purely along either or racial catagories. It's all about who has the power, and who empowers who , in hopes of getting what,  for the benifit of who.

With this in mind, i'd be really curious if Betsy could explian how educating non native people about their responsibilities to respect the right of Native communities, when it comes to choosing and empowering their own leaders, and the right of these leaders to manage, protect and maintain their own resources and culture, is in any way serving the intrests of  White Nationalists?

In keeping with the question of “ who has the power”, and who is being served,  the key issue seems to be ensuring that non native or people of primarily non native descent respect the values and boundaries as they are defined by the indigenous leaders who are serving the needs of their own indigenous people.

So the other line of attack against NAFPS is to try and make the case that people posting here are creating their own definitions or have no business supporting the Elders who have defined these things, and it should only be enrolled Natives that give this support.

Both these arguments don't make sense as clearly many Elders have spoken on the issues and to insist their positions should not be supported by activists outside their own tribes would greatly damage tribes ability to achieve respectful and cooperative reltionships with people outside their own community . When Betsy tries to use this arguement to discredit NAFPS ,  it makes even less sense , as this type of outside support is what she herself claims to be doing.

As completely off the wall as some of Betsy's accusations are, some of what she says has some truth in it.

We probably all sometimes confuse our own assuptions or perceptions with the facts and I agree with Betsy this is something everyone involved in exposing misinformation needs to work to avoid. That is one of the strengths in working as a part of a large mostly open group. We all have blind spots but luckily we all usually have different blind spots.

If someone in NAFPS posts something thats wrong, it's almost certain someone will quickly come along and point out the error. One of the strengths of NAFPS is that there is lots of people with different points of view who participate here and who ask questions and challenge what they see as incorrect or incomplete information.

Of course on any public internet group it's going to happen that people say stuff that isn't true and damages someone elses reputation . This happens over on at least once a day, in yet I don't see Betsy bragging about having that on line group shut down , and in fact she thinks it's a great place to learn stuff. If she is really concerned about message boards where people get unfairly accused of stuff this double standard doesn't make any sense at all.

Considering all the above it seems what Betsy really objects to is the fact that NAFPS supports the protection of ceremonies which gets in the way of the nonnative people accessing what they imagine to be authentic traditional  teachings / seminars / workshops and ceremonies , or utilizing parts of these to create something new.

Betsy's real concerns may have more to do with making sure White people have access to what she imagines is authentic cultural products This is evidenced by her comments below ...

Posted - 11/03/2008
The people who have the MONEY and/or political clout these frauds want are more often than not concerned with the legitimacy of the people they give their time, money, and efforts to.

This is evidenced over and over again by how quickly Anglo benefactors drop a fraud once he or she is exposed as one. This is ESPECIALLY true for those non Indians who donate to what they think are Indian causes simply because they think Indians got a really raw deal. The "guilt givers" A huge portion of the fundage the frauds receive is coming from Grants and donations made by people who have no contact with Indian cultures at all, nor do they really want any. They just want to help a group of people who got royally screwed so they donate to what they think is an Indian School, Shelter, Heating Assistance Program, etc. whatever sad sounding scam the fraud is running.

Likewise, when an Anglo pays a hefty chunk of change for ANY seminar, class, etc. they ARE NOT happy when they hear the Teacher pulled her credentials out of her butt. There are some people who believe they are here on this Earth to learn, and they get REALLY ticked off when they find out they have been taught a pack of lies.

Even those who follow the Faux Indians out of ego alone do not wish to be associated with someone who has been widely exposed as a fraud ....bad for the image you know <BEG>

I KNOW I will not be able to stop all of them, but I intend to make on hell of a dent in their bank accounts.

Almost all of Betsy's complaints about NAFPS are directed specifically at Al.. Some of what she complains about has some grounds in reality. Al is human and sometimes makes mistakes and like all of us doesn't always notice or want to deal with it.

For example, in his post above he says Betsy IS in a polygamous relationship . Which isn't true. What I read was she WAS in a long term realtionship with a woman who she reffers to as her significant other and she says this womans child called her Mom and so did another womans child who she lived with. Also Al says Betsy was a follower of Brooke , and Betsy denies having any connection to Brooke or being her follower – If this is true maybe the fact Betsy went so far as to get NAFPS silenced because she says Al thought Brooke Medicine Eagle and Brooke Schiavi were both the same person, is where Al got this impression. It does seem Betsy has put a lot more effort into criticizing NAFPS than the frauds she claims to want to expose.

Usually Al's mistakes can be explained as he's busy and has lots on his mind and sometimes the details get confused. Other times i think maybe he just gets feeling over whelmed with people trying to find a way to shove elephant sized guilt into every mouse sized crack in his character and he just dosn't want to give people another opprotunity .

Considering the intensity of dealing with some of the stuff he does , he seems to do a pretty good job of keep things in perspective. I think most of us look to him for leadership, not because he makes him self important in any way, but because he usually provides a strong stable sensitive and intellegent response. He is quite reliable about providing this and because of this he does act like the back bone of the group . One of the things i really appreciate about Al is his unusual combination of having a thick skin and enough sensitivity to respond to some really complex and painful issues. Very few people would have the unique skill set required to do what he does here. I see how much time and energy he gives to this project, with little or no compensation ,  putting up with constant harrassment and even if he does make mistakes sometimes i still really respect him for all he does here.

One of the ways people attempt to undermine the information provided here is through attacks on Al's character, as if the credibility of what thousands of Elders has said depends on Al being able to get everything in his life perfect beyond reproach.

One of the biggest complaints people make about Al is that he sometimes claims to be Mescalero Apache without saying he is Irish / Mexican / unenrolled Mescalero Apache every time.  I can understand some people would find this annoying and anybody who does this without being enrolled is setting themselves up to get criticized.

 I don't think claiming a tribe as your primary identity if the tribe doesn't claim you is a good idea . I know some people get confused about this, because there is or was many traditional leaders who acknowledge unenrolled descendents as their People and many people who have been acknowledged in this way feel it's Ok to self identify in the same way.

With all the people trying to worm their way into faux entitlements exploiting the generousity of this type of acknowledgement , it has become increasingly obvious that when unenrolled people call themselves Indians it can be the first step to faux entitlements, and it is those faux entitlements that creates problems, so generally speaking ,  i don't think it's a good idea for people who aren't claimed by their tribe to claim the tribe , as their strongest or first identity .  I don't know the details of Al's life , but considering all he does to discourage people with faux entitlements , I'm not sure how much that matters.  I don't see where he is supporting anyone making claims to faux entitlements , or making any himself,. I've never seen Al  "teach" anything about Apache traditions or culture which isn't the most basic facts which could be found in a text book, and as already pointed out, the idea that advocates for respecting Native rights must be enrolled in the tribe they are advocating for is silly. So I don't think this is a major problem , though I do understand it is a sensitive issue and it could be irritating to some people who for good reason object to  unenrolled descendents identifying themselves as being of a tribe that doesn't formally claim them.

Betsy with her super sleuth data mining abilities seems to have ignored the fact that Al never hid that he is a mix of Mexican and American Indian with strong ties to the Mexican community. Mixed blood people frequently feel more of a connection with a particualr aspect of their heritage at different times in different communities, the information he was mixed blood has always been publicly posted and there for all the world to see.

Is it true that people in Mexico do not like Hispanic Americans?

I never felt any hateful prejudice against me, but sometimes an amused belief that I wasn't "really" Mexican because I'm much taller than your average Mexican, I dress "American" (though in America I'm seen as dressing "cholo"), my Spanish has a lot of slang, and so on. (con...)Many of us recognized that, to a white racist, "somos illegales," we're all seen as wetbacks, and we have to overcome that together.

POSTED 9/7/1999

A.C.C., W Lafayette, IN, United States, <> , Mexican and American Indian, Grad student, Over 4 Years of College, Mesg ID 93199922018

And posted the same day ..

Why do some whites attempt to use aspects of Native American tribal religions, often through paying money for something? And when they do, why do they insist it's an attempt to 'honor' or 'join' us, when for the most part they don't live in or work for the benefit of our communities?

It's just sad that many, like Carlos Castaneda and Heheyosts Storm, have exploited this for their own greed and ego. To any whites who want to learn about us, why don't you try talking to us and not these snake oil salesmen? Come to a powwow or read God Is Red, one of the best books out there on native spirituality.

POSTED 9/7/1999

A.C.C., W Lafayette, IN, United States, <> , Mexican and American Indian, Grad student, Over 4 Years of College, Mesg ID 93199923723

From the film Spirits for Sale
10:09:08:19 – 10:09:42:21
Al Carroll: My name is Al Carroll, my background, my ancestry, my heritage, is Mescalero Apache. I'm also Mexican and Irish. I teach American history. San Antonio has about one million people. When I grew up, it was a very racist town to grow up in. I was getting in fights almost every week I was in school. Usually over some racist comment, over being called I'm a redskin or a red back or a prairie nigger. Or being told I look like a nigger, or some other racist remark

So, it looks to me Al has always been open about the fact he is mixed in his identity. And with no claims of faux entitlements, I don't agree that that someones mixed racial identity makes them a 'faux indian” who deserves to be annihilated.

I began my comments on Betsy's efforts to discredit the information provided here , with the example of the ad which Betsy posted with no URL in 2006. I see where she has now pointed out 3 other similar entries made through Al's old yahoo account which refer to his interest in polygamy or his search for a second wife.

I talked to someone who has known Al for about 10 -11 years who was involved in the original Our Red Earth group. I think Al was also involved with this in the same time frame, and that is how this woman got to know Al. This person says around the same time those ads were placed, she had her yahoo account hacked and some inappropriate stuff put in her profile to do with her work , making it sound like she had inappropriate relationships with some of the people she worked with . At the time Al was involved in doing academic research on indigenous polygamy. So maybe that is the explanation as to how those entries came to be made using Al's yahoo account.

At this point I'm not sure what to think. I guess it's entirely possible Al did something foolish when he was younger and with so many people looking to find fault with him he doesn't want to admit this ... But it seems odd he would deny this if he was the one to make those posts. These posts do say he is looking for a second wife, not someone to secretly have sex with. Wives are not usually easy to keep secret, and if Al was comfortable enough to be advertising for a second wife, it doesn't make a lot of sense that he would suddenly be shy about people finding out he did this.

So my first guess is that Al also had his yahoo account hacked. If Betsy actually thinks Al's possible potential polygamous tendencies might be a danger to the public. I suppose it's fair for Betsy to bring the stuff she found to the publics attention, though I'm not sure it's at all relevant to what he does here and I don't see any good reason to try and humiliate Al with this. I've never seen any clues he is a womanizer , still looking, or that he is less than happily married to his one wife.  NAFPS isn't a dating service and I can't imagine Al has much face to face contact with other NAFPS members .

Part 3 in a minute

(just edited for typos and garbled wording )
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 27, 2009, 10:48:50 pm
Part 3
Again Betsy shows some odd double standards when she discounts the information Al provides on the grounds he is a pervert but she doesn't feel John Martins lewd comments should affect his credibility .

One of the criticisms Betsy often makes of NAFPS, is that what is posted here isn't always backed up by documentation. 

This is true, but even if something is backed up by documentation that still doesn't mean it proves what someone is trying to say it does. Many of the “faux” tribes people object to have selcted out of context documentation to legitimaize their claims. I also notice that though Besty does provide some evidence to back up her conclusions, she seems to have a bad habit of inserting her own interpretation of the evidence as if it is a documented “fact” . The facts are used to make her conclusions seem “ proven” but often there is no real connection and her statements just aren't true. I think we all sometimes confuse our perceptions with objective reality and, being human we don't notice when we do . Betsy does this a lot..

Posted - 11/12/2008
Originally posted by Guardian
Greetings Ms. Ross,
Do you know that you have erroneously been placed on the "Don't pay to pray" lists located here?
"Ross, Gayle (aka Tawohdih) "

Your listing is one of the MANY reasons we do not include these sites on our list of Faux Indian resources
From a thread discussing when NAFPS was shut down for a couple days in January

Posted - 02/05/2009 :  11:01:03 AM

  quote:Originally posted by Chizhii L. Bows

    I would miss 'em. They do excellent work collecting information and exposing fakes and flakes.

I REALLY wish this was would have saved me a lot of grief years ago, but I learned early on that Carroll and Co. routinely post grossly inaccurate information. They will not admit it, or retract their false statements, even after their mistakes are well proven. Opinions and differences in perception are one thing, but the NAFPS folks have actually misidentify people with similar names, listed a well known Enrolled Cherokee Storyteller as a fraud, etc.

Tawohdih was wrongly listed as a "Fraud" on the missing forum. Gayle Ross is an Enrolled Tribal member and a recognized storyteller in her Tribe. Putting someone like her on a Fraud list renders the entire document useless. Not only do they damage an innocent Tribal member, they completely waste the efforts of those volunteers who took the time to check their facts and expose the real frauds who do make up the majority of the list.

There are still four sites up that reposted the same false information....perhaps unknowingly?

These webmasters would do well to remove Ms. Ross from their Fraud Lists immediately, and an public apology to her at the same URL would be very appropriate.
It would not be a bad idea to remove the DEAD people from the list too.

Note to Heather: I know who you are, and I understand and agree with what you are trying to do. Unfortunately you CANNOT trust any information acquired through NAFPS. From what I have personally experianced, Al Carroll cares more about what people think of him than he does about accuracy.

Posted - 02/05/2009
I don't know who Heather is but I am have been a member of the site for a long time. Dead people need to stay on the list because we have followers who use their names. Al is just one of the moderators not the owner of the site. DUH! some people.
Everyone post information that we recieve in email or on sites posted then other people send in their information. of course we get attracked when people tend to think that they are getting attacked. All it is posting information. As you know Guardian you have been on list. The other people had personal disagreement with Al who does not own the site. David yeagley who is native has been a joking back and forth on the site as well as many other so people get upset. another DUH!
I am going to miss the site, I know there has been a problem with a group in Europe who has been having problems with who they are. So that is what I see is the problem. It is another one of those personal issues between a member and another individual.
the sites had what nine moderators.

Posted - 02/05/2009 :  12:56:34 PM 

    quote:Originally posted by earthw7

I don't know who Heather is

Sorry.....Heather is the person circulating the "Do not Pay to Pray" Fraud list that Gayle Ross is on.

So Gayle Ross wasn't listed as a fraud by NAFPS at all, and in fact Gayle Ross is one of the people in the movie protesting cultural appropriation called "Spirits for Sale" which was organized by NAFPS members.

Although Betsy may not see it,  her accusations are not always well researched before she makes them .

And if Besty honestly wants to be guided by Native people, why does she ignore what many Native people are telling her,  and instead continue to try and find fault with the information provided in NAFPS?

Below is another example of the misinformation Betsy is circulating to try and discredit the information provided here

From the Oakland Rave thread page 2

I do not lie, but I do not expect people to just believe whatever I write either ...after all, this is the Internet. This is why I post the PROOF of everything I write, so people can view the data and decide for themselves what is going on.

Despite her claims , Betsy doesn't always present all her documentation so people can examine it for themselves and figure out what going on . For example, that ad Betsy posted about Al looking for a second wife which she seems to enjoy using as a reason to call him a pervert was posted for over 2 years with no URL included . In the thread where Betsy posted additional links to these entries, she then called me a "lying rodent" for doubting her claims and not just taking her word for it ... I guess Porcupines are members of the rodent family but i don't lie, and if i don't always get all the fact straight it sure isn't ever intentional.

Here is another example of one of the many things Betsy claims that conflates information and on closer examination can be seen to be not true.......( She is trying to convince people NAFPS is really a front for White nationalists that hate Indians )

Oakland Rave p2
Posted - 04/15/2009
There is a reason most of NAFPS's victims are either enrolled Indians trying to help their own people, or non-Christian Anglos trying to reclaim their OWN pre-Christian practices

Where exactly did Betsy see someone who was enrolled who is serving their own community listed in research needed or frauds? I guess there may be a couple people who serve their own community but who are also involved with a lot of non native people who get discussed here – like Lenord Crow Dog , but to suggest “most” of the people discussed in NAFPS come anywhere near to matching this description is an outright lie. Almost all of the people listed in NAFPS as questionable or as making untrue claims about themselves are catering to a mainly non native audience or unenrolled PODIAs. So this statement just isn't true, but it does provoke an emotion of “Who the heck do they think they are?” which provides a cover for the statement that follows.

Betsy then goes on to make the astounding assumption people of non native background are reclaiming their OWN prechristian beliefs when they practice out of context native ceremonies. Please note her emphasis on the words OWN, as this is probably a clue as to the real reason she objects to NAFPS. We are getting in the way of her faux entitlements to the cultural practices she feels she has a right to OWN. She seems to be dealing with this by imagining the solution is  finding the real live authentic enrolled Indians who are willing to share them. If she wasn't looking to get something from Indians for herself and her pagan friends, why would she need to be able to distinguish real Indians from fake ones?  Why would she need to learn this , if she wasn't planning on going shopping for authentic goods?

In a thread titled Guardian Wannabe Mole over at Indianz a while back I also saw that Betsy called me a lying rodent and threatened to find out exactly who i am . I can't see any reason she would need to do this. I've never made any potentially misleading claims about myself except that i'm familiar with the territory on both sides of the fence. I see people getting hurt on both sides, and I hope what I have contributed here might in some small way help to reduce that problem. If Betsy wants to disagree with me on some of the issues discussed here, thats fine, buit she isn't welcome to try and find out where I might be vulnerable to harrassment, and that  is the only reason I can see Betsy would want to find out who i am. It is generally accepted in the courts that engaging in free speech on cotroversial issues can result in harrassment and people have a right to protect themselves from being intimidated into shutting up, through remaining anonymous  .Obviously what is discussed here is controversial , and it can be easily proven people participating here have been both harrsssed and threatened.

I always do my best to tell the truth and to defend what is good . It's for me to decide what's safe for me to expose about myself, not Betsy Ashby , and i really don't appreciate being threatened by someone who *claims* to be working towards the same goals I am.

I am not the only person here who has been harrassed and threatened, and i know there is others who have been intimidated by this.

Thats not OK and it needs to stop.

I should also add is talking about dumping it's archives and i'm not sure how long these links will continue to work .

Sorry this is so long but I feel there is some important issues involved here.
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: educatedindian on April 28, 2009, 02:21:18 am
Part 2
Also Al says Betsy was a follower of Brooke , and Betsy denies having any connection to Brooke or being her follower – If this is true maybe the fact Betsy went so far as to get NAFPS silenced because she says Al thought Brooke Medicine Eagle and Brooke Schiavi were both the same person, is where Al got this impression. It does seem Betsy has put a lot more effort into criticizing NAFPS than the frauds she claims to want to expose.

Usually Al's mistakes can be explained as he's busy and has lots on his mind and sometimes the details get confused. Other times i think maybe he just gets feeling over whelmed with people trying to find a way to shove elephant sized guilt into every mouse sized crack in his character and he just dosn't want to give people another opprotunity .

Considering the intensity of dealing with some of the stuff he does , he seems to do a pretty good job of keep things in perspective. I think most of us look to him for leadership, not because he makes him self important in any way, but because he usually provides a strong stable sensitive and intellegent response.

It's not an impression, it's a fact that Ashby doesn't want to admit to now. In her letters to me, Ashby repeatedly stated her admiration for Brooke Edwards and bragged about having attended Edwards' pay to pray ceremonies. That she doesn't think there's anything wrong with selling ceremony is something you point to yourself.

It's also quite telling Ashby has never gotten angry at Brooke Schiavi for stealing Edwards' twinkie name of Medicine Eagle. And she's such a rabid follower of Edwards she thought it quite funny Edwards supposedly got an AIM protester shot. (I doubt that story myself.) Finally, recall also that the Crow have been saying Edwards is a fraud for decades, and that even Edwards now no longer calls herself Crow, claiming instead to be Metis.

If anyone thinks either myself, or NAFPS as a sites, doesn't admit to mistakes, why do I say the exact opposite in our Who We Are page? Someone could also point to threads in Archives marked No Longer a Matter of Concern, as well as the threads moved from one section to another, sometimes more than once.

And I've always tried to stress I'm one just mod out of five, one member out of nearly a thousand now. I think I get the most attention because I don't hide who I am in real life, which also happens to be a historian.
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: earthw7 on April 28, 2009, 03:03:59 am
I can always count on both of you to be honest and stand up for what is right
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: RESPECT_09 on May 31, 2009, 06:04:48 pm
One of the biggest complaints people make about Al is that he sometimes claims to be Mescalero Apache without saying he is Irish / Mexican / unenrolled Mescalero Apache every time

If this guy Al says he's part Apache then whoopi-dee-doo. Hell, i'm part German. Big deal. ;D
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: AlaskaGrl on August 15, 2010, 10:10:07 pm
What a great list !  Do you think "they" read it?  Not where I am they don't... 
Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: fredvoss on August 29, 2010, 08:31:46 pm
Dear Forum,

under the culture of gypsies there are never exist shamans.

By meaning of European language-sciencer, gypsies come from India.

In India there exist two tribes who speak a language like gypsies.

At my knowledge gypsies never teach their religious practions to non-gypsies.


Title: Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
Post by: Lodro on September 02, 2010, 09:22:17 pm
For those who want references to Roma or Sinti spirituality, "Bury Me Standing" by Isabel Fonseca is an excellent resource and very thoroughly researched:
Title: Kiesha's trollish fans
Post by: Saga on December 29, 2010, 01:57:54 pm
Facebook page for the "Prophets Conference":

Robin Johnson's public profile on Facebook:

Some great comments yes, and then one that claims that nafps doesn't have real natives as members and most of us are white females and everything here is "fraud" too. Under Yells At Pretendians's link about Kiesha.

NAFPS "exposes frauds" the same way a kettle calls a pot "black."
NAFPS has very few ACTIVE members, most of whom are white females living in Europe, according to impartial internet stat monitors. Those very few NAFPS members who claim to be... "of Native descent" do not feel compelled to adhere to the same standards they demand of those they attack, i.e. few if any reveal their "real" names, enrollment status, their family's names, while they root around the net like truffle-hogs hunting for any similar (true or fabricated) dots to connect to their pre-judgments. They claim the must hold private their own personal information to "protect" their members from "death threats and harrassment" while ignoring the very same firestorm of havoc and potential violence they create in the lives of others, including the innocent. NAFPS moderators, of course, think themselves to be the perfect "judges" of who is and isn't a fraud - and in more than one case, it is a matter of the moderators "protesting fraudulant behaviour a little too much." Having aggrandized themselves, and collected a small cult of followers who blindly believe their inept research, they pompously expect their victims to show up on their forum to "answer to them!" as though their targets would ever be given a fair and impartial platform - tried by the ignorant, the arrogant, and the irreverant there. What good they may do is tainted by the shameful self-serving acts of their egoistic "crusades." Like those they condemn, NAFPS has lost its way and fallen into the realm of the misled and the misleading. Pity.

[removed personal information]
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: 2012hoax on January 25, 2012, 09:30:25 pm
Just wanted to bring your attention to this message I received.  Apparently whoever this person is, thinks that I am "Dr. Al Carroll":

The link is to a blog that hasn't been updated since 2008, and to an entry that gloats about how this site was 'taken down' (and yet, it still seems to be here 3 years later). 

Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Smart Mule on January 25, 2012, 09:37:29 pm
Hi Hoax, I'm assuming you were contacted by Mary Novak.  Please read the thread about her in Research Needed.  The link was one of the many she sent me last night. (
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: 2012hoax on January 25, 2012, 10:25:43 pm
hm... could be.  

She seems to have a 'thing' for educatedindian and this site... quite a grudge.   Why she thinks I am him is beyond me.   Even if she found his article on our site through a search engine, she obvously didn't bother to read it, as it clearly states that it is his "guest view".  

Regardless, I reported the account she created on wikidot for abuse.  
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Smart Mule on January 25, 2012, 10:31:56 pm
She thought (using her super psychic powers) that I was a young male (I'm not any kind of male) and that the OP in the Mary Novak thread was a Celtic woman.  And of course she thinks Al is a demon.  Her perception skills are lacking.

I'm glad you reported her, as is evident here she would not have stopped her behavior and would have ended up spamming your site.
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: earthw7 on January 26, 2012, 06:18:14 pm
I just got an email from dreamtime on Al :o :o
i guess we will all get emails ::)
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Smart Mule on January 26, 2012, 07:32:32 pm
Sorry earth.  Thank you for letting us know.
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Ogichidaa on August 12, 2012, 06:55:42 pm

AIM Indiana (the newest sanctioned chapter of AIM) wants to honor you and thank you for all your efforts and for being willing to withstand the negative attacks by the Sham Ons. We are interested in seeing a book written that chronicles all these fakes. In our region McCulloug, Dark Rain Thom, Momfeather Erickson, The Overhll Cherokee, the "Western United Lenape", and many others have hurt so many people and it is time to stop. We need to gather all of this in one package that can be distributed internationally. McCullough now has deputized pipe carriers and sundancers in Belgium, England and all over Europe. I realize we are just speaking from our little corner ofthe universe and there are so many more in California, Arizona, Texas, Georgia, and all over. But we need them to become embarrassed to pretend to be medicine people.

Migwetch for all you do!
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Laurel on August 13, 2012, 07:10:58 pm
I write, and would be glad to assist with such a project. I don't think I could handle doing all the research myself unless I were given a lot of time, but nothing would make me happier than helping The Big Book of Plastic Shamans get written, even if I were just copy editing.
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Cheesy Little Life on August 14, 2012, 11:02:59 am
I would be pleased to offer some of the following: writing, research and fact-checking, editing, copyediting, and book production skills.

I am well placed in Britain to do research on the issue.

Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: educatedindian on August 14, 2012, 01:48:48 pm
For anyone wishing to spread the word about these frauds, you can always write articles yourself. But these tactics do the most good IME:

Write clearly, state your opinion strongly but calmly. Avoid ambiguity "In my opinion he's not doing right" is far less effective than "Native traditionalists say this is wrong."

Anonymous articles will be discounted by just about everyone. You must use your real name and be prepared for the personal attacks. Those the public is most likely to listen to include not just Natives but also former Nuagers, those who have family or friends harmed by frauds, and those with some kind of credentials.

Mainstream media won't listen. Your best bet is to get the ear of altmedia reporters. Failing that, self publish and repost the link repeatedly.
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on February 17, 2014, 07:14:06 pm
Very relevant to the intense stalking a small, aggressive handful of butthurt frauds and their defenders have been engaging in:

Internet Trolls Really Are Horrible People

Narcissistic, Machiavellian, psychopathic, and sadistic.
The Internet is sadists' playground.

By Chris Mooney

In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology has made some strides. Last year, for instance, we learned that by hurling insults and inciting discord in online comment sections, so-called Internet trolls (who are frequently anonymous) have a polarizing effect on audiences, leading to politicization, rather than deeper understanding of scientific topics.

That’s bad, but it’s nothing compared with what a new psychology paper has to say about the personalities of trolls themselves. The research, conducted by Erin Buckels of the University of Manitoba and two colleagues, sought to directly investigate whether people who engage in trolling are characterized by personality traits that fall in the so-called Dark Tetrad: Machiavellianism (willingness to manipulate and deceive others), narcissism (egotism and self-obsession), psychopathy (the lack of remorse and empathy), and sadism (pleasure in the suffering of others).

It is hard to underplay the results: The study found correlations, sometimes quite significant, between these traits and trolling behavior. What’s more, it also found a relationship between all Dark Tetrad traits (except for narcissism) and the overall time that an individual spent, per day, commenting on the Internet.

In the study, trolls were identified in a variety of ways. One was by simply asking survey participants what they “enjoyed doing most” when on online comment sites, offering five options: “debating issues that are important to you,” “chatting with others,” “making new friends,” “trolling others,” and “other.” Here’s how different responses about these Internet commenting preferences matched up with responses to questions designed to identify Dark Tetrad traits:
E.E. Buckels et al, "Trolls just want to have fun," Personality and Individual Differences, 2014.

E.E. Buckels et al, "Trolls just want to have fun," Personality and Individual Differences, 2014.

To be sure, only 5.6 percent of survey respondents actually specified that they enjoyed “trolling.” By contrast, 41.3 percent of Internet users were “non-commenters,” meaning they didn’t like engaging online at all. So trolls are, as has often been suspected, a minority of online commenters, and an even smaller minority of overall Internet users.

The researchers conducted multiple studies, using samples from Amazon’s Mechanical Turk but also of college students, to try to understand why the act of trolling seems to attract this type of personality. They even constructed their own survey instrument, which they dubbed the Global Assessment of Internet Trolling, or GAIT, containing the following items:

I have sent people to shock websites for the lulz.

I like to troll people in forums or the comments section of websites.

I enjoy griefing other players in multiplayer games.

The more beautiful and pure a thing is, the more satisfying it is to corrupt.

Yes, some people actually say they agree with such statements. And again, doing so was correlated with sadism in its various forms, with psychopathy, and with Machiavellianism. Overall, the authors found that the relationship between sadism and trolling was the strongest, and that indeed, sadists appear to troll because they find it pleasurable. “Both trolls and sadists feel sadistic glee at the distress of others,” they wrote. “Sadists just want to have fun ... and the Internet is their playground!”

The study comes as websites, particularly at major media outlets, are increasingly weighing steps to rein in trollish behavior. Last year Popular Science did away with its comments sections completely, citing research on the deleterious effects of trolling, and YouTube also took measures to rein in trolling.

But study author Buckels actually isn’t sure that fix is a realistic one. “Because the behaviors are intrinsically motivating for sadists, comment moderators will likely have a difficult time curbing trolling with punishments (e.g., banning users),” she said by email. “Ultimately, the allure of trolling may be too strong for sadists, who presumably have limited opportunities to express their sadistic interests in a socially-desirable manner.”

The research, conducted by Erin Buckels of the University of Manitoba and two colleagues, sought to directly investigate whether people who engage in trolling are characterized by personality traits that fall in the so-called Dark Tetrad: Machiavellianism (willingness to manipulate and deceive others), narcissism (egotism and self-obsession), psychopathy (the lack of remorse and empathy), and sadism (pleasure in the suffering of others).

It is hard to underplay the results: The study found correlations, sometimes quite significant, between these traits and trolling behavior. What’s more, it also found a relationship between all Dark Tetrad traits (except for narcissism) and the overall time that an individual spent, per day, commenting on the Internet.


Additional links on original page:
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Diana on February 17, 2014, 10:42:19 pm
Thanks for the posting katheryn. I have always wondered what motivated these types of people. Especially the ones who post in the comments sections in news articles about Indians. You would not believe the out right racism and hatred and it always seems to be the same people or type of person. 

And what's even more disturbing is the people who still post their racist rants through news outlets that require you to do so through Facebook. They're not anonymous anymore and they still don't care who see's their evil dialogue.  >:( 

I was reading an article about a state park that was making a name change on some peak or rock outcropping??.....sorry can't remember exactly which, but they were changing the name from Squaw peak to something more appropriate. It had been petitioned by the local Tribe to make the change and the state park after years of dragging their heels finally complied. It was a small article just 3 paragraphs. The comment section had 186 comments! Almost all were from outraged white people spewing the most god awful racist vitriol. It was sickening and a little scarey. I clicked on some of the worst offender's Facebook profiles to see who they were and found one person who was particularly vile was employed by the local library!!!!

The moral of the story is you never really know who your racist neighbor is until they post in a comment section of a small town newspaper.


Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: RedRightHand on December 16, 2014, 09:24:56 pm
A Wiccan troll who goes by the name John O'Brien came to NAFPS and pretended to be Native ( He was used to playing NDN among the Wiccans, where he posts excruciating attempts at poetry and unbalanced screeds about the demons he believes are attacking him. I guess he didn't realize he'd encounter real Natives here who would try to talk some sense into him. He used the the name Atehequa, claimed to be "Shawano" ( and launched right in on attacking elders and their traditions (

As happens when trolls like that invade the forum, he earned himself the ban hammer. Both for his insulting actions and lies as well as for attempting to sockpuppet in his own defense.

So now he's online lying about us. He's posting things he got off Neo-Nazi attack pages - one that is connected to some of the recent white supremacist mass shootings in the US. O'Brien is literally posting stuff from a Nazi hit list. He's posting outrageous, racist lies that even the Neo-Nazis finally agreed were libellous and took down. He is also copying and pasting things from Smoking Crack woman - aka Suzanne DuPree, aka Looking Back Woman ( - a divisive outsider to the Lakota communities she claims to be an authority on, who no traditional people claim, yet due to her speaking out against AIM she has gained a bit of a following among non-Natives and non-Lakota who don't care (or who don't know) that she's not who she claims to be. People have tried to help DuPree with her alcohol issues and homelessness, but she has turned on everyone who tried to help her.

John O'Brien is also posting the usual lies the frauds resort to, claiming the NDNs here aren't NDN and, even weirder, claiming the white people here aren't white. Which is kind of funny, if it weren't so indicative of how unhinged he is.  I guess, like the Nazi sites he's enamored with, he considers us all "Commie Jews," and thinks Jews are non-white. Or maybe he hates Black people more so he thinks we're Black? Hard to say. I think he needs some more help with those demons. 

John O'Brien seems like one of those vicious, racist white people who wants all the NDNs to be dead so he can get away with being a pretendian. He doesn't even realize how every word out of his mouth gave him away as a pretendian, so he is apparently consumed by rage. What he doesn't realize is that we've also heard from people in his area who know he's a racist liar, mentally unwell and possibly dangerous.

Cate Crow, she who promotes fake cancer cures that will make people sicker, seems to have teamed up with him, and both are sockpuppetting in various troll dumps in the dark corners of the intarwebs. Must suck to be them.
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: RedRightHand on February 07, 2015, 11:11:12 pm
White supremacist, lying troll and pretendian John O'Brien appears to also be using the screen name Missikech Kechqua, under which he is stalking women and posting more of the same white supremacist attacks on NDNs. He is continuing the same pattern of trolling as he's exhibited under the Atehequa sockpuppet identity, where he poses as a Native on Newage and Wiccan forums to give out fake "Indian Wisdom."

It looks like in some places he has at first posted a few things that sound reasonable, like John Trudell videos or even things taken from NAFPS about appropriators. But once people start to engage with him, the paranoid attacks begin again.

It looks to me like when he was here, he was accusing respected forum members, whom many of us know well in person, of being completely other people... random strangers whom none of us have ever heard of, that he'd had disagreements with in backwaters of the newage interwebs.

In between hanging out with white supremacists he is playing NDN on a number of crazy sites for things like "starseeds" and witchcraft, such as this one:
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: earthw7 on March 02, 2015, 04:32:46 pm
i just wanted you to know that american tribes deleted the post about NAFPS and deleted the people who were posting about the site because their behavior, so they have been banned from the site.

Hi earth

I think Dietmar should consider locking down and getting rid of that annoying and insulting nafps section. It is getting ridiculous and hateful.
What do you think?
Read more:

so the post was deleted.

Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: ian bear on April 04, 2015, 05:21:48 pm

Cate Crow, she who promotes fake cancer cures that will make people sicker, seems to have teamed up with him, and both are sockpuppetting in various troll dumps in the dark corners of the intarwebs. Must suck to be them.

that a lie. very sad what you do to her. respected teacher and friend of native people. I gave her Ojibwe formula and she try to help people with it and she did help people with it. Cate is good person with big heart. she apologize for not giving source here. do honorable thing and lift ban.

Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: earthw7 on April 05, 2015, 12:50:51 pm
what ban?
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on April 05, 2015, 08:04:51 pm
Ian, if you would please go to the introductions thread and introduce yourself, we would appreciate knowing who we're talking to. After you spammed the forum you said you were leaving. If you plan on staying, we'd appreciate an introduction. Are you Native? If so, from what Nation? I think Sky and others thoroughly debunked your friend Cate's claims, and clarified that Black Root medicine is not Essiac (which was made up by a white woman) in the essiac thread:  And in the Cherry Valley thread:

Cate was banned from the forum for lying to us and about us, for posting plagiarized materials, and for stalking and libeling people. It is clear she was not here to help with the purpose of the forum, but rather to promote frauds and fraud, and to cause harm to our members.

I'd also like to request that non-Natives who join the forum not use names that could lead people to mistakenly believe they are Native. It will save everyone stress and minimize misunderstandings and conflict.
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Autumn on April 06, 2015, 12:07:53 am

Cate Crow, she who promotes fake cancer cures that will make people sicker, seems to have teamed up with him, and both are sockpuppetting in various troll dumps in the dark corners of the intarwebs. Must suck to be them.

that a lie. very sad what you do to her. respected teacher and friend of native people. I gave her Ojibwe formula and she try to help people with it and she did help people with it. Cate is good person with big heart. she apologize for not giving source here. do honorable thing and lift ban.
(bolding mine)

ian, there is no need to lift the ban.  Cate says it all on this website under the screen names Cate Crow and Reality Check4u (another alias for Cate).
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: AClockworkWhite on April 06, 2015, 03:57:55 am
"Complaintsboard dot com"... OMG how ludicrous. Using a consumer complaint page as a sounding board because no one legitimate will take them serious is absolutely pathetic. Why not just write it on a bathroom wall at that point?
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: earthw7 on April 06, 2015, 02:34:09 pm
why would you be ban :o
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: AClockworkWhite on April 06, 2015, 05:51:01 pm
Solidarity! *fist in the air*  LOL
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Smart Mule on April 06, 2015, 06:06:43 pm

Cate Crow, she who promotes fake cancer cures that will make people sicker, seems to have teamed up with him, and both are sockpuppetting in various troll dumps in the dark corners of the intarwebs. Must suck to be them.

that a lie. very sad what you do to her. respected teacher and friend of native people. I gave her Ojibwe formula and she try to help people with it and she did help people with it. Cate is good person with big heart. she apologize for not giving source here. do honorable thing and lift ban.

good for Cate for defending herself from your lies and hypocrisy  >:(  please ban me from this site too

Hi Ian. I can appreciate that you feel that Cate is a good person and that she is your friend. Please try and understand that here conduct here was less than honorable. She has the right to criticize us and to quote unethical individuals to, in her mind, foster a defense for lack of a better term. We also have the right to offer criticism. Her deletion of posts and threads was juvenile. I understand that she was upset but that's no excuse to retaliate against people who take their time to do a public service. Again, she has every right to disagree however her juvenile reaction was inexcusable.

We don't ban people per their request. You can remove yourself from the forum if you choose though. If you need me to walk you through the process via messages let me know.

Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Autumn on April 07, 2015, 08:26:43 pm
"Complaintsboard dot com"... OMG how ludicrous. Using a consumer complaint page as a sounding board because no one legitimate will take them serious is absolutely pathetic. Why not just write it on a bathroom wall at that point?

Yes, it is pathetic but anyone can join and they can post anything they want.  The thread was started by Nancy Red Star who has a thread on NAFPS here:

There was a comment made in the thread in 2010 and then it went dormant until 2014 when it was revised by Cate Crow posing as Reality Check4u. 

They are keeping an eye on us here and are re-posting what we put on the forum.  I was trying to figure out who rain or rain0033 was and had posed the question that perhaps it was Cate Crow since there were parallels between the Ojibway Nation and the fact that both Cate Crow and rain had deleted all their posts.  Doug A. reposted my comment and stated:

This time sky figured out it was not Cate. Leave the poor woman alone already
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: AClockworkWhite on April 07, 2015, 08:36:43 pm
This one is definitely getting interesting. "leave the poor woman alone..." LOL I am *so* glad to be here.  ;D
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Larry Cope on May 22, 2015, 02:51:18 am
Being new to this forum, I had to go back and trace the threads and references found in other threads and posts.
Having done so and admitting that I am in way a scholar of any native tradition, I will note that what little exposure I've had through Vine Deloria's books, Black Elk Speaks, the very wonderful film Wisdom Keepers and other limited references would lead me to conclude that anyone claiming to be a native teacher of any sort who would align themselves with the Starseed project or write of Star Ancestors and being "written about in numerous magazines including: Nexus, UFO Magazine, FATE, New York Magazine, ELLE, Shamans Drum, Majical Blend …etc." will most likely be impostors duping a willingly blind audience.
From what I've researched in my limited way, true native teachers do not go around bragging about themselves. They do not "sell" their services nor their knowledge. Please, if I am in error, feel free to correct me in this.
Just my 2 cents worth
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: earthw7 on May 24, 2015, 04:17:10 pm
so true our people never advertise, make web pages, Facebook, ask for money or donations, never charge for ceremonies,
there are unwritten rules, you must be compassionate, you must be faithful, must be humble, modest, you must know the language,
and the songs in which order they come, you must complete 4 years of inipi, four years hanbleca, four year wiwicipi, and then given the
right to run a inipi,  no women can run, inipi, hanbelca, wiwicipi for men, these are men's ceremonies,   

When we have ceremony we must tell who taught us, what and how we got the right to sit at the door,
who our are families and who are our witnesses, you must provide the names of people who know you completed what
rights you are claiming,  anyone can challenge you if you do not tell the truth.

Finally because family adopts a non native person does not give them the right to run our ceremonies, or speak for us or make himself chief
Hetcu yelo
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: ian bear on November 28, 2015, 05:31:01 pm
 You can remove yourself from the forum if you choose though. If you need me to walk you through the process via messages let me know.


sky walk me through process.
I do not want to stay here
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: ian bear on November 28, 2015, 06:11:08 pm
i found delete account button. good bye sky.

you must be compassionate, you must be faithful, must be humble, modest 
good words to remeber from earth
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: milehighsalute on March 14, 2016, 05:34:40 pm
lol atehequa was banned from too

finally visited complaintsboard and left message

so thats where all the twinkies go lick their wounds?
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: RedRightHand on March 14, 2016, 09:39:13 pm
lol atehequa was banned from too

finally visited complaintsboard and left message

so thats where all the twinkies go lick their wounds?

John O'Brien, aka "Atehequa"... the nerve of a Wiccan white guy to come here and try to pretend he's a traditional Native. I guess he fooled the white people on the pagan boards, and actually thought it would fly here, too. He's also implicated in stalking a certain fantasy author. If he's who I think he is, he was thrown out of a SciFi convention by security, after allegedly sending threats to someone who was going to be appearing there. I'm not certain he's the same guy, but the people who were there think so.
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: milehighsalute on March 15, 2016, 02:21:00 pm
after insulting natives here and on he is mirroring all of us in the ron paul forums haha
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: AClockworkWhite on May 14, 2016, 11:39:18 pm
^Now THAT is comedy.
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: theredhairedcrow on June 23, 2016, 12:25:03 pm
Likely, this article has been seen before by someone, but the fraudster William Jervis, under the new alias of "Eye Tuwe Slo Waya", recently attempted to post it at the Stop Misuse of Native Spirituality, etc. community on Facebook.
It is by Paul Runton, it is titled: "The Hate and Lies of NAFPS website". (
Title: Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on April 28, 2022, 05:22:54 pm
Posts about new topics/individuals moved to Research Needed