NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: Marlon on May 30, 2007, 02:44:31 am

Title: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Marlon on May 30, 2007, 02:44:31 am

Here is an interview I just conducted. All feed back on this interview would be appreciated.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.MUSIC.TommyLightningBolt.htm

(The Bio below came from his CD)

Thomas Lightning Bolt age 34 is a Native American. Descendant of the Mohawk and the Abenaki and adopted by a Lakota woman. During his early twenties he was selected seemingly out of the blue for an apprenticeship under a Coyote Medicine Man of a northern California tribe of Native Americans. During this Apprenticeship Lightning Bolt was initiated in to the highest levels of Native American mysticism, underwent a Shaman's death (literally), was kissed by the Thunder Beings (more than once), and instructed to use the power that he was born with (the lightning) to help and heal the people of all Nations of the Earth that they may live.


Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: coffee_drinker on May 30, 2007, 03:49:01 am
Without getting into much detail, anyone that advertises their medicine is bull.
If he's Mohawk and Abenaki descent he should learn their ways, not that of another tribe.
I think  maybe he's been touched ( if you get my drift) and not kissed.
Sounds like he knows enough to make him dangerous to himself and others.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Marlon on May 30, 2007, 04:00:35 am

What do you mean by advertising his medicine?  Do you mean the info on his CD? His bio.

Read the interview if you get a chance.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: coffee_drinker on May 30, 2007, 11:27:17 am
If you are referring to the link you provided, yes I did read it. In it he speaks about being kissed by the thunder beings, that is a Lakota belief of spiritual medicine. Anyone that speaks about spiritual medicines or medicines of the earth and it is used to promote themselves, whether it be with music, books or seminars, I myself do not take seriously. Spiritual medicines are not spoken about in a public way such as a interview. All the undertones of the interview, speak I am a medicine man, buy my cd. No disrespect but I could cut and paste half the interview and point out what is wrong with what he says.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Marlon on May 30, 2007, 04:15:35 pm

With all due respect, does that mean Black Elk, Fools Crow, John Fire Rain Deer are not authentic medicine men.  They all gave interviews for books. Giving an interview and answering questions is not necessarily self promotion. Its a way of sharing knowledge, raising awareness and providing information.  I asked him about his music, and musical instruments since he sent me the CD.  He answered my questions.

On the subject of native spirituality. What are your thoughts on this. Especially the last two paragraphs.

Respect - The Key To Life by Dave Chief,
Grandson of Red Dog, Crazy Horse's Band

Respect means no interruption.
Respect means no confrontation.
Respect means no accusation.
Respect means no "mocking,"
Especially, no mocking of elders.

Respect means no lies between us.
Respect means no betrayal of confidence.
Respect means no "ripping off."
Respect means no hoarding.

Respect means no "Lording it over" someone.
Respect means no ordering around.
Respect means no yelling in anger.
Respect means no bad language.
Respect means no name calling.
Respect means controlling yourself.

Respect is not a commodity.
Respect is a way of being.
Respect is in our chest and not in our hand.
Respect is for all life.

Respect is for every species in the world,
including all four races.
Respect is for all our relations.
Respect is focusing on and dealing in "issues"
and not "personalisms."
Respect is focusing on "what " is right
rather than "who" is right.

Respect means owning our own negativity
and not being a "Blame Shifter."
A "Blame Shifter" is one who projects or shifts
his own negativity onto someone else.
This is the process of bigotry, war, and genocide.

Respect is keeping all lines of communication open
with those who have a different opinion, and making
a sincere attempt to let them be heard and understood.
Respect means listening until everyone has been heard and understood,
only then is there a possibility for "Balance and Harmony,"
The goal of Indian spirituality.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: coffee_drinker on May 30, 2007, 06:11:09 pm
I believe this is comparing apples to oranges when it comes to the difference between Fool's Crow and Thomas Lighting Bolt. I am only going to use one example of those you mentioned. First off Fool's Crow was Lakota and he practiced his own people's beliefs, he did not follow traditions nor beliefs of another tribe.  Fool's Crow was not a self appointed spiritual leader, he was recognized by his people as one.
I prefer not to go into any details of the beliefs, nor my thoughts on native spirituality, for I do not believe it would serve a purpose on the internet. By revealing what I know would make me as guilty as those that exploit the culture.
 
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Marlon on May 30, 2007, 07:15:23 pm
Thank you for your feed back. Very much appreciated and totally understand your point.  That's very interesting since you are on a forum called Plastic medicine men and new age shamans but do not want to discuss Native Spiritually online. I thought that's what this forum is about? 

Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: weheli on May 30, 2007, 07:49:45 pm
Marlon,
No this site is about exposing frauds who exploit our culture and use ceremonies as a for profit buisness. I would be interested in knowing who this coyote medicine man from a California tribe is, why does he not mention his name?

It has and is always the way that a TRUE MEDICINE MAN NEVER speaks that he is a medicine man. It may have been spread by word of mouth but HE will never speak of this.

Also are you stating that looking back woman has the REAL Sacred Chanupa that Fools Crow was given down to him to keep? or are you stating that she was given a chanupa that he used in a ceremony? Yes you are correct all Chanupas are Sacred and those who carry one and call themselves a Pipe carrier had better be VERY aware of that fact.
                                                                      Weheli
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Marlon on May 31, 2007, 01:02:41 am


This is a message from Thomas Lightning Bolt


Mr.coffee_drinker sounds like you've been drinking too much coffee!!! I feel sorry for people who have too much time on their hands that all they have to do is criticize. I did not
ask for this burden and as far as i'm concerned the people Who make these judgments are not worthy of what i have to offer.

So you people who try to tear me down remember that when you need to be healed and no one else can help you. If people have a problem with me being Mohawk/Abenaki and passed Lakota Take it up with Fools Crow and the Great Spirit! As Albert Einstein said "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds!!!"

Every true medicine person I know has suffered criticism from the jealous and the ignorant. Fools Crow said "A man who has something and does not share it has nothing". I do music because I WAS ASKED TO! any money I get from it GOES TO THE MUSIC. And why would I tell any of you Coyote's  name, so you can slander him also? I don't think so!!!! This web site is a New Age gossip forum and gossip is one of the most EVIL medicines on the planet!

                   Lightning Bolt
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: coffee_drinker on May 31, 2007, 03:42:25 am
First I would like to address LBW. I myself have never wrote or spoke about you or your family. It is not my place to speak on who has what pipe.
I believe this thread was started by Marlon who asked for feedback, what I said was my opinion, nothing more, which I stand by.  I will repeat a sentence I wrote and that is "comparing apples to oranges." Those that Marlon spoke of, the agenda was not to bring attention of self interest, in fact all three lived extrememly humbled lives. And all carried messages for the people. What I read in the interview, I see none of these contents of what they all tried to convey to the people.
In your post when you say" So you people who try to tear me down remember that when you need to be healed and no one else can help you." Are you implying that only you can do that? Where is your humbleness as a "medicine man"?  I was taught healings do not come from man. And throwing in a Einstein quote that, let's just say has left me speechless. So with that I will exit
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Marlon on May 31, 2007, 05:24:36 am

Hi Coffee Drinker.

I want to add that the reason I posted this interview was not because I questioned Thomas Lightning Bolts authenticity. 

First of all who am I to judge him. I have no evidence of any wrong doing. Not one person has come forward to say he has exploited his culture or his medicine. That he is charging for ceremony and so on.

I was interested in listening to objective feedback and dialogue on the interview, about what he had to offer and share. His music, his gifts, his musical talent, his knowledge and experience of practicing Native medicine. How this happened and came about.

I thought the story was really interesting and so have many people who have commented positively on it from all over the US. Other artists, poets and musicains etc.

My intention was to share his story and message. I obviously have made a mistake and posted it in the wrong forum. I sincerely apologize to him for doing this.

I do appreciate your feed back and comments.  I do how ever think some of your first comments were unsubstantiated and language inconsiderate of another persons feelings.

What I also question again is this criteria and beliefs as to who. how and why someone becomes a medicine man. Where these beliefs originated. Who created these rules and regulations in the first place. Where one rule seems to apply to one medicine man but not to another. This obvious contradiction.

For example, why can Fools Crow sell a book, but Thomas Lightning Bolt can not sell a CD. 

Websites were not around a hundred years ago either. Does that mean medicine men can not have websites. Or that they cant teach or give seminars.  That their time, knowledge, wisdom, experience is not valuable or is worth anything.
 
Also this negative conotation and label "plastic shaman". New age, old age. These distinctions. What this really means and what this is really about.

What I see is labels. A way of slotting someone, invalidating someone. Has nothing to do with truth or authenticty.

Black Elk used to be in a traveling circus. What does that mean?  Does that mean he was a fake. He was also catholic.  How do you explain that?  What does that make him?  New age hippy as well.

Fool Crow was also of the Baha'i Faith.  What does that make him?  A muslim. Medicine men are also people and people are not so simple or black and white. 

John Fire Lame Deer also belonged to the American church and took peyote. I do not remember reading anything about peyote in Lakota culture. Does that mean he was a a new age hippy like Carlos Castaneda , Timothy Leary or Ram Dass?  Where does it say a heyoka can take peyote?

 

Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: coffee_drinker on May 31, 2007, 12:35:21 pm
I did not label him with my words. He himself has done that with his own words. Go back and read the interview again as though you have never seen it.
Again I am expressing my opinion,
It is one thing to promote music if you are a musician, it is another to promote yourself as a "medicine carrier" and these are not my words but that of Mr Ligtning Bolt.
Let me ask you, how can you even compare  Black Elk, Fool's Crow and or Lame Deer with TLB? I ask that because in your words that is what you are doing.
What you have done is just take my words and manipulate them into meaning something more than what I have said.

I am not here to argue with your agenda. All I have said is this is bull, and no I don't think the fella is right in the head, he reads like a cheap novel.  I am speaking straightfoward with you, if you want to take that as labeling, as being mean, that is of your choosing and not mine.  Perhaps you should go ask some elder up on the rez to read your interview with him and find out what their take is on it.
 
Look I'm just a white guy that married into a Indian family. For 30 years all I've been around is grass roots traditional people, when I go to her family gatherings they look at me like I'm the devil, Ok, get my drift here. I never seen any of them promote their teachings on a music CD.
It's one thing to talk about your music and instruments you play, but this interview, lots of detail on obtaining personal medicine, in fact the interview itself is more of how he got his name, what he was taught and what he practices. Maybe if you would have kept it more on the subject of his music.

 
And as far as the three elders you have mentioned and what they did or dind't do, what they practiced or didn't practice I am not in the position to say. The only thing I can say is that I did meet Fool's Crow once many many years ago, when I went with my wife to S.D. to help her family out. What I saw in that short time was a man that lived in a extreme humble dwelling and had more faith is his little finger than most people will have in a life time. And that is all I will say on that matter.
If you want to know what I believe or think send me a personal message.  As I said I don't discuss my beliefs on the open internet
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 31, 2007, 02:04:06 pm
Hi Marlon

It's nice that you have come here to talk with us , and you sound like an intellegent and principaled person.

Like Weheli and Coffee_drinker , I also felt uncomfortable with *some* of the content of your magazine , and the interview with this Thomas Lightening Bolt character, is a good example of some of the content that made me uncomfortable .

I'm not saying I have a copy of the Indian rule book that I am reading from - just my own feeling and understanding . How i understand it is , stories of Sacred traditions or personal experinces of the Sacred , pictures of Ceremonial items , should not be shared on line .

For one thing , there is important content ( the most important part of the content) that won't be a part of the on line presentation , so what is shared is likely to be out of context and as useful as nice new tires without the actual car . Some people won't even realize there is supposed to be a car attached to the tires . The internet is the wrong way for people to learn about traditions .

I think another problem with sharing a personal Spiritual experince on line is that these experinces only happen because they have a job to do and they have an influence in a persons life . So removing a Sacred experince from the job it has to do , would usually be misusing a Sacred experince for the trivial function of obtaining attention and impressing people , or maybe making money . When we misuse things they usually get damaged or destroyed. I think there is also a belief that a personal experince of the Sacred , would need to have a job to do influencing the lives of everyone this was shared with , if this sharing was really being done for a good reason . So when people share a lot of personal Spiritual experinces or traditional information , with people they don't even know, this behavior seems to suggest that there is no real respect for the true source or function of these experinces . It also seems to suggest there is no sense of personal responsibility to retain the integrity  of a Sacred experince by guarding this experince from people who might misunderstand or misuse it .

As for the Elders who have had books wrtten about them , I think these books were usually written by people who were not Elders , and these Elders were simply asked if they would assist by allowing this .

These Elders werew not always happy with how the information they shared was used .

Thomas Mails , who wrote the book on Fools Crow for instance was not an Elder and has a reputation for being really insenstive in his use of information . I don't think Fools Crow was promoting himself . See the thread below on Thomas Mails .

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=165.msg608#msg608 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=165.msg608#msg608)

The book about Black Elk was also written by someone else who wanted to promote what I hear was mostly their own idea of "Indian wisdom"  .

So there is a big difference between someone claiming to be a medicine person using the Sacred to gain public attention , and having someone else use a medicine person and what they hold Sacred to gain public attention or make money .

What you say about there being many contradictions is true . Partly that is because people are individuals with different strengths and weaknesses . Partly that is because there are many different Native cultures and traditions vary , and partly that is because traditional ways are now having to be practiced in non traditional contexts , so there is often different opinions on the right way to do things in a modern world .

But every respectful traditional person I know of , carefully guards what is Sacred , and would not publish some of the information I see people publishing in your magazine . 

         
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: educatedindian on May 31, 2007, 04:13:31 pm
Marlon, the fact that you are willing to come here and listen to criticism says good things about you. But your judgement when it comes to Native issues really needs work. I honestly don't think you intended to, but you wound up promoting some of the worser and morer obvious exploiters and frauds posing as spiritual leaders. Seemingly anyone claiming online to be an NDN medicine man selling ceremony gets promoted in yoiur magazine.

(On the other hand the arts and political sections of your magazine are quite good.)

TLB, for example, is clearly no spiritual leader. No true elder would throw a childish fit and fall apart at the slightest criticism the way he just did.

Ms. Dupree is not only as phony as they come, she has smeared a great many good people and ACTUASL elders. Even the quickest check would show virtually no Lakota traditionalists buy her extremely dubious claims. Use the search function at the top and take a look at the thread on her.

Mala Pope also...well...take a look at the thread in here. Apparently he pressures or demands women sleep with him in order to get spiritual teachings. He has also managed to drain away most of the money for Native activism coming from Europe so he can build a Nuage center for naive whites.

Again, the fact that you are willing to ask questions and listen to criticism says a lot of good things. I only hope that you are willing to admit your mistakes and say so in future editions of your magazine.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Marlon on May 31, 2007, 06:48:42 pm

Hi Coffee drinker,

I was not comparing TLB with Fools Crow or Black Elk. Just asking the question why is it ok for these people to sell books but not for Thomas Lighting Bolt to sell a CD.  His music is really good by the way in my opinion.


Hi Moma_porcupine ,

Thank you for sharing that with me. Yes that is very interesting post on Thomas Mails. What about  Richard Erdoes who wrote the book with Lame Deer. Is there anything on him.



Hi Educated Indian

Thank you for your feedback.

You said. "Ms. Dupree is not only as phony as they come, she has smeared a great many good people and ACTUASL elders. Even the quickest check would show virtually no Lakota traditionalists buy her extremely dubious claims. Use the search function at the top and take a look at the thread on her"

This is what I found. Is this what you mean or is there more?

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=search2





Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Ingeborg on May 31, 2007, 11:32:06 pm
Quote
Fool Crow was also of the Baha'i Faith.  What does that make him?  A muslim.

In fact it does not in the least. It makes him a Baha'i.
But certainly you can speak with more authority on ndn religious beliefs than you can about Muslims or Baha'is.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: educatedindian on June 02, 2007, 02:15:25 am
Marlon, I really wish you could stay on topic. This thread has wandered off topic so many times already. I've split the Dupree topic off yesterday, and more off on her today.

I was tempted to split off all the general "what makes someone a fraud" questions, but didn't. What I'd like to ask is that you take a look through some of the older topics. Most of what you're asking has been addressed under the Etc section many, many times.

For that matter some of if what addressed in the welcome message and Who We Are section before you even get to the forum. Some is also addressed in the stickies at the topic of each section.

For now let's try and keep this thread strictly on TLB.

And in the future, please have him or anyone else wanting to respond actually come here (unless they don't have net access) instead of passing along messages on their behalf. The "I'm too spiritual to respond to this" stance of TLB is a pretty common tactic of many exploiters, except that he undercut himself by throwing a fit while doing it.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 01:40:34 pm

Hi Al,

Ok good point. Maybe wise to also open up another topic or two. I will give this more thought.

Im still very busy on other matters, so can not spend too much time on this but may address what you guys do on my site. will look into your book at some point.








Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Skully on July 05, 2007, 06:46:00 am

Hi Al,

Ok good point. Maybe wise to also open up another topic or two. I will give this more thought.

Im still very busy on other matters, so can not spend too much time on this but may address what you guys do on my site. will look into your book at some point.

Screw all the niceties. L-Bolt is a friggin' fraud, plain and simple.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Johnnie on July 13, 2007, 03:37:54 pm
Folks,

Just a note to inject into this debate.  The books mentioned (John Fire, Archie Fire's, Black Elk and Wallace) are "as told to" books.  By their very nature they undergo a double edit before they even reach the point of being words on a page.  The first and most important edit is the exchange between the teller and listener.  There are not just questions, but the "right questions" which are being asked by the interviewer.  As the subject responds, he is editing the information to be given to the outsider. 

While I did not know the old Black Elk, I did know John and Archie, and Wallace, very well.   I know that there is a big difference between what is written and what is experienced first hand.  Many times I rode in the car with Archie going somewhere where we talked and talked, and the conversations with him were a constant series of jokes, puns, and leg-pulling.

I also recall years ago being at a dinner dance (small powwow) where John Fire walked in.  In his back pockets were two half pints (he didnt drink) and on his arms were two young blond wasichu women (he was prolly too old to do much).  The point of that little demonstration was to rile up folks with over the top behaviour.

Our ways were communicated through oral tradition.  Which means "face to face."   Hold onto that thought.

The second edit mentioned is the one where the listener puts down on the page what the subject says.  A good "as told to" writer willl tell you the motive he or she has in editing the conversation from heard to written.  Neihardt did not do that.  The others did not do that either.   To move from the intracacies of conversation to the written page is to try to describe to someone blind from birth the vision of a night sky on the prairie.

That said, to conclude anything from a book about or "as told to" from one of these folks is to attempt the impossible.

Thanks for listening.

Johnnie
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: sapa on July 13, 2007, 06:49:43 pm
Hi All,
I have thought about this for awhile now and hope I have made the right decision. This is intended to help Marlon understand. My father-in-law is a old lakota man. He was born in a tipi along the Grand River, perhaps one of the last to be so. He has danced in Green Grass with cousin Stanley. He has spent his life helping the oyate in whatever they needed.He has been a pipe carrier for more than forty years. I have seen him do some very incredible things with my own eyes. He walks in the old way. He is a quite, soft spoken man, rarely gets riled, is compassinate and wise enough to let you make your own mistakes ie walk your own path. He lives in tribal housing and survives on $388.00 per month from VA. My husabnd is the eldest son and so made the decision many years ago to work outside the rez to help support the family. We are nearing retirement age and will probably return soon to live out our days. The people of our community recognise Ate as a medicine person. He has never said or even intimated such a thing. He never wrote a book, or recorded any music especially sacred songs because he feels those are gifts that can only be shared in the old way. My mother-in-law (now gone but a gifted woman in her own right) used to say if you hear a song once and dont "get it" then its not for you. We do not speak of the sacred casually. We do not share or brag about our spiritual helpers. There are ramifications for such things. We absolutely do not charge for anything spiritual in nature although we have been known to sell our quilts or bead work. We are unsheka (poor) in material things. However if someone is in need then you help and do without yourself if need be. This is the way of the old ones. We pray with the cannupa or canli, we hope that Tunkashila remembers us and that when our days are done we can return to the stars with all our relatives. Do we make mistakes, you bet. We are humans trying to be human beings. These are the things that suggest you are dealing with a true spiritual person, not a bunch of self promotion. We lakota tend to look the other way when one of our own is doing something that might not be right because we know without a doubt that the spirits will provide a correction for the problem. Sometimes that price is very high. There are occassions however when our outrage takes over and we step in. Even then a talking too is usually the action unless things continue to such a point that disbandment is warranted. In our compassion we try to warn others for their own protection hence this board and others like it. There is a modern saying that if you play with the spirits you might get burned. We hope to prevent that. If people really want to learn these old ways there is no quick way. It takes a lifetime and then some.I see that I have gone to rambling so I will end now...that is all I have to say.....sapa
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Moma_porcupine on July 13, 2007, 07:24:43 pm
Jonnie and Sapa , it is so good to hear your voices here . There is so much confusion . I think people like you , sharing some of your cultural understanding really helps . It is really appreciated . Thanks   :)
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Johnnie on July 13, 2007, 10:04:29 pm
Marlon.

I read the interview and materials on this Lightning Bolt character and actually do not have a problem with his music, it is his story that is full of holes.  I am suspicious of anyone who suddenly takes an "Indian name" that is in Engiish, ie "Lightning Bolt."  My Indian names are in nishnabe podwewadmi mowen, not English.  Translating them into English loses their power.  By using such an English name he is pandering to non-Indians and their stereotypes about who we are.

The second thing are the timelines.  The interview is confusing as to when exactly he was with Fool's Crow.  He would have had to have been a teenager, or went there when he was older and Fools Crow was near death.  So, Fools' Crow takes on a stranger with no or barely credible tribal ties when he was so elderly as to need constant assistance? 

If he had a mentor who was northern California, what tribe?  Again, why apprentice someone whose tribal affiliation is questionable at best and not one of your own tribe at worst?  And, why talk about the guy at all?  This Lightning Bolt character is simply too young to have experienced all the things he says he has done.  And, as others point out, he is talking about things that should not be talked about at all, and certainly not with people from magazines or on the internet.

He has the right to play music, adapt musical themes from Native American music, and play guitar with his feet if he wants.  What he does not need to do is make up a whole bunch of stuff about these folks in order to sell records. 

My guess is he is not who he says he is and is surfing the net in order to further weave a story that only non-Indians will believe.  As you can already tell, real Indian people are rolling their eyes the moment he sticks out his hand and calls himself Lightning Bolt.  He is losing credibility for his potential audience, not gaining.

Tell him to think about the BS and either stop, or tell the truth.  I suspect the truth is he is a non-Indian whose vision was in the movie theatre watching Pocahantas.  If he has real talent, he will sell CD's.  And he will sell more among Indian people if he tells the truth.

Johnnie
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: educatedindian on July 14, 2007, 12:53:09 pm
"Marlon" is none other than John Lekay of Heyoka "magazine". Just to let you know Johnnie, anyone who criticizes him gets demonized by Lekay. In fact, even people who've never done anything to him, just because he confuses them with someone else, he tries to get their names dragged through the mud.

Or at least that's what he tries to do. So far his smear campaigns have all fallen flat, even backfired and helped out those of us he tried to "take down."

Just want to let you and Sapa know what to expect.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Johnnie on July 14, 2007, 08:11:48 pm
Ed Ind,

Wow, I went over to Heyoka and read that interview with Robin.  You guys "assaulted" her?  And it is a wonder you can even wear a hat with them horns sticking up so far.

Here is my take on this whole thing.  It is not a matter of "if" Native Religions get loose in the New Age, it is how much.  Seventy percent of the world's crops are Native origin.  Like Italian food?  Tomatoes from the New World are a main ingredient.  And so on.

There are two issues to resolve in this New Religion loosely called Nuage Native religion.  The liturgy and the priesthood.  Since I have visited many of these new age "priests" I think my observations have some value.  The liturgy they use is mostly Lakota; Sundance and Sweats are both dependent on the liturgy (songs and prayers and sequence).  And thus the Lakota are the ones who should be asked or credited at the very least.  As a Potawatomi, I don't really have a dog in that fight.

As for the priesthood, that is where I do have something to say.  It is impossible to be a Lakota "medicine man" and not be Lakota.  And moreover, with all the problems and needs of the Lakota people, why are they (if they are in fact Lakota) traveling the world with ceremonies for other people?  The greatest need for Lakota ceremonies is among the Lakota themselves.

Personally, I feel that the genie is out of the bottle and there is no way to put the ceremonies back.  To quote a great poem by Acoma poet/writer Leslie Silko, "it is already loose, It is coming, is can't be called back." 

It may in fact have a tempering influence on the world in general and if Native people can forsake their native ways for Christianity, then why cannot the Christians forsake their heritage for Native ways?  In fact, many of the ones among Indians most upset about Nuage/Native religious practitioners are those who have been Christianized.  Oh, they may in fact "powwow" but even that started as a response to the outlawing of religious ceremonies by Christian activists and government officials in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries; specifically and ironically by Buffalo Bill and Pawnee Bill's Wild West shows.  In fact, for some Indians who are urbanized the only ceremony they do is the powwow.  And the exclusion they practice there is transferred to other aspects of religion where they themselves do not tread.

That said, my concern is that many of the ceremonies being leaked out to the Nuagers are not only physically dangerous, but dangerous in the spiritual realm as well.  As my mom used to say, "these chemoks (white people) have no business doing something that will kill them."  How many times have we seen Nuagers advertise vision quests "all meals provided"?  In short, if they are going to steal the ceremony, why not do it right?  An analogy would be the thief who not only takes my gun, but uses it to shoot someone.  I may not care if he took it to feed his family as I used it, but stealing to kill or die is a double crime.

As for Marlon/Lekay?  He will need to get in line to diss me.  And if I read his magazine right, he and I are not too far apart, at least in this life.  But likely he was raised a Christian and so he will go to hell while I will be in Chibiabosnek.

Just some thoughts.

Johnnie
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: sapa on July 15, 2007, 02:20:44 am

Thank you for the warning educated indian but I doubt theres much fun in going after me. I did not attack anyone just offered a few words of insight and I am to old/tired to get dragged into a dog fight over the words I shared. I have no marketability, no wealth, no status or standing, in fact, if it werent for the lifes I have touched along the way no one would even no I had been here.
sapa

Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: steve_w on July 16, 2007, 01:12:12 am
Sapa

i just joined nafps recentlty and noticed alot of personal attacks myself. this isn't how this site is run is it? if so then maybe i am in the wrong place. i understand we must get rid of frauds but this must be done with some sense of respect for the person who is under attack. thank you
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Johnnie on July 16, 2007, 01:45:29 am
Steve W.

You were addressing Sapa and as far as I can see, he is quite capable of answering your question.  I can only speak for myself and what I have experienced.  For years I lived in Oklahoma and Arizona, even California.  This was not an issue until recently for me.  Moving to Indiana I found that people who claim Indian blood but were not, were the principle people deciding Indian issues.

As an example, they cared not about health care, or child care, or employment for Indians.  They don't care about substance abuse programs.  What they do care about are feathers and rituals designed to put them in touch with the spirits.  All well and good, but when you can't feed your kids and a job or social services will help, spirits are kind of far down the list.

They tend not to care about eductation and if they do, it is cosmic education.  All well  and good, but we Indian Education programs that will provide tutoring in math and English, not teaching kids how to make paper headdresses and share turkey and trimmings once a year.

Personal attacks?  These folks have to be named openly, otherwise, how would anyone know who is or is not?

I knew a guy in Arizona who charged 75 dollars per sweat, and four hundred for a weekend vision quest.  So, like Typhoid Mary this guy was sowing seeds from his idiocy throughout the Southwest and even into the East.

So, X person goes through the vision quest and goes back to New York and when the local Indians start agitating about tax issues and reservation sovereignty, Person X stands up and says "what is really important is getting in touch with your spirit."  And the whole audience applauds and tax issues and sovereignty takes a back seat to cosmic beams from outer space.

Get the picture? 

What else would you have us do?  Wring our hands and hope this crap will go away?

Or out these men and women?

Real Indian writers can't get a break because if they write about the true experience of being Indian, it ain't really true unless they have been in touch with UFO's, Sisterhoods of the Shield, or Don Juan and a pocketful of Peyote.

Get the Picture?

Like I said, living in Oklahoma I didn't care diddly squat about this cause if someone came along and started being all cosmic, he or she was laughed out of the Indian world.  Here, east of Mississippi and among places where Indians are totally marginalized, it does matter.   I know Indian kids who need shoes and tutoring and cause their names are not Jimmy Lightning Bolt, or Mary Summer Rain, they ain't really Indians. 

Think about it Stevie.  You come up with a better way of getting liars to stop lying, and I am for it. 

Johnnie
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: educatedindian on July 16, 2007, 01:37:03 pm
Steve, if you'll notice, it is the frauds and exploiters who made all the personal attacks. Marlon/John Lekay, for example, an Englishman who appointed himself an expert on NDNs, who compares any NDN who disagrees with spiritual exploitation to mass murderers.

All that we say, for example, are facts such as:

This is person is claiming to be a medicine man when he is not.
This person is not acting as traditions say an elder should act.
This person charges for ceremonies when that is wrong according to tradition.
This person is claiming a ceremony or belief is Native when it isn't.

I don't see how any of those could be considered "personal attacks."

In fact, one of the most common complaints by exploiters and their supporters such as John Lekay has been that we do NOT allow them to engage in personal attacks as much as they want to.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: steve_w on July 17, 2007, 06:25:12 pm
Educatedindian

i acutally met thomas once at a pow-wow, he seemed like an ok indian to me, i could never understand why indians attack each other. sometimes it make me ashamed. Educatedindian i think what you and others here are doing is fine and dandy however it gets really ugly at times, could you tone down the hate a bit. thank you.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: wasna papa on July 17, 2007, 08:50:33 pm
kola,

if lightenning bolts is playing with medicen spirits will take care of hin. nood need to concern yourselves. cretor take care of this mater. if he is not playing with medcen no need to concern yourself cretor take care of this mater.this is how it oporates.

wasna papa

Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: educatedindian on July 17, 2007, 08:59:40 pm
Steve, could you tell us how you met the guy? What powwow was it?

Was he claiming to be a medicine man that everyone should bow down before and no one should dare criticize for being a legend in his own mind, the way he does now?

Did he already have a lot of unlikely claims about Fools Crow and elders he wouldn't name, as Johnnie pointed out?
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: sapa on July 17, 2007, 10:38:54 pm

Steve W.

If you will refer to the previous post from educated indian you will see that he was warning me that someone named "Marlon" was the same fellow named LeKay and that this man is know to be agressive if you disagree with him. Thats were my reply about personal attacks came in. I dont think what you see here is "hate" as much as it is frustration.
Sapa
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: wasna papa on July 17, 2007, 11:53:24 pm
kola,

what is your frusteration with brother.


wasna papa
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Johnnie on July 18, 2007, 12:16:46 am
SteveW.

I admit it makes me uncomfortable with the "hate" accusation you level.  My tribal chairman does the same thing when we point out the corruption in the tribe.  If we say that the tribe is tens of millions of dollars in debt due to casino development, he says we are being "hateful." 

And I have yet to see where anyone has been "hateful" on  here.  Discussions regarding who is or is not what they say they are is, IMHO, not hateful. 

Once was accused of 'snooping' when I asked a guy his tribe.  Turns out he was a poser and was outed for trying to raise money on his fictional tribal connection. 

ndaw nishnabe podwewadmi ewi chigwe dodem, Oklahoma o shishipani dojbya.  My tribe clan and band of Potawatomi.  I am not a medicine man or spiritual leader, but I teach Native American Indian religions in the Indiana university system.  I tell my students nothing about how ceremonies are done, but do try to teach them respect for the traditions.  It is not respectful to Indian traditions to have these bozos (is that hateful) out there raising money and doing ceremonies that can harm people. 

If I push someone hard out of the way of a speeding car, is that hateful behavior?  If I try to stop someone from jumping into a rock-filled pond, is that hateful?

Johnnie
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: steve_w on July 18, 2007, 01:21:03 am
Educatedindian

i met thomas at the gathering of nations in new mexico back in 2003. as i recall he was playing in a really cool indian rock band. he was a likeable kind of guy, but back then i didn't know he was a fraud. it's difficult to judge people till you meet them in person. there was so much going on there so many beautiful indian women. have you ever went to gathering of nations? thank you.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: One Moon on September 02, 2007, 08:57:44 am
I actually met this Lightning Bolt person in Washington State after some time he spent with a Native family. For being a "Phony" He sure was able to efectively heal an elder of cancer, several days later the lab work was done and nothing was visible on the test results...The Elder said "the doctors were baffled"... The only thing he asked for was tobacco. However people are certainly entitled to their beliefs.:)
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: frederica on September 02, 2007, 06:30:54 pm
No medicine person would ever brag about something like that. I am suprised anyone would lput this up on the internet.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Ingeborg on September 02, 2007, 08:01:14 pm
No medicine person would ever brag about something like that.

That's very true - but a lackey would.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: frederica on September 02, 2007, 09:35:22 pm
Awwwwww, and I thought I was going to be able to obtain some Oncology facts. The AMA likes to investigate random non-scientific cures for Cancer.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: One Moon on September 03, 2007, 08:12:14 am
When I met him, he didn't say anything about why he was up there in Washington State. He didn't brag about anything, infact he didn't say anything about medicine. I think you are jumping to conclusions when using the word "Brag".

[Al's note: "One Moon" is actually John Lekay, yet again doing a very poor imitation of an NDN. He's been banned yet again as a troll, for spamming.]
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: frederica on September 03, 2007, 03:47:52 pm
All you have to do is read his web page bio.  There is enough there to draw attention and concern, which has been previously posted in this thread.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: Moma_porcupine on September 03, 2007, 04:28:31 pm
One Moon does seem to have similar intrests to John Lekay ... I was wondering if they were the same person or affiliated .
 
I notice there is no names or tribe mentioned when One Moon mentions the Native family in Washington State who thought so highly of Thomas . Which seems strange if this was true . Without saying who these people are, the information is meaningless. If this family experinced such a miraculous cure I am sure they would be willing to leave this information with someone in their tribal council so we could confirm it .

But if it is just Thomas telling this story , about himself - to One Moon , So What ? We all already read him promoting himself as a healer in Lekay's articles ... More self promotion doesn't make him more credible .

And ya know , sometimes peoples faith or Prayers or luck does heal them , but that doesn't mean everyone involved in supporting this , is generally trustworthy in other ways, or even that they generally have the ability to assist in healing . People should have a lot more to recomend them than a couple situations that worked out well. I think anybody could rightly claim to be a "healer", if a all it takes is a few lucky interactions which resulted in a healing .  And then I always wonder when people take credit for a healing , if they are as quick to take the blame
for when people get sicker . You never hear that side of it . People bragging that they helped kill 10 people.  So I always wonder why they are comfortable to take the credit, and say they helped heal 10 . 
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: debbieredbear on September 03, 2007, 04:46:54 pm
I have met people who probably could cure cancer with ceremony and herbs. But they would never say so. They might say they only no a tiny bit of things but someone else they know, now that person has the real power. But the people who have gone to them will tell you that they were healed by them. For someone to brag about healing cancer or whatever? Sends big red flags to me.
Title: Re: THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW
Post by: frederica on September 03, 2007, 06:08:08 pm
I think it is not as rare as people think, just not an every day occurance.  I saw a bit of a program on what they called "spontaneous remissions" this past summer. It was geared more to Christian Faith and Prayer and Medicine, but the study was completed by medical personnel. But even they weren't taking credit for any cures.  I think that is where the line is drawn.