NAFPS Forum

Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: Moma_porcupine on March 30, 2007, 11:07:59 pm

Title: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 30, 2007, 11:07:59 pm
A lot of people don't seem to understand " Whats the harm " . It seems the following questions come up over and over. I know the problems have already been explained in many threads , but I was thinking it might be helpful if there was a single thread that was dedicated to explaining " Whats the harm ? " .

Some of the questions that seem to frequently come up , are more or less as follows ;

Quote
*"But , many people sincerely believe in what they are doing .  Who are you to judge someone elses Spiritual belief system ? If it makes them happy , whats the harm ?"
Quote
*"Why shouldn't people charge for traditional ceremonies and healing ? In a modern world people need money . Whats the harm if someone is charging for traditional ceremonies?"

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*"Things change and traditions of different people have always been blended . Whats the harm in using the parts of Native traditions and ceremonies we find helpful , and blending these with other practices?"

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*"If someone who is an Indian wants to share their traditions outside their tribe whats the harm in that ? Shouldn't a person who is a real Indian have a right to do this?"

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*"Some tribes like the CNO have tribal members with a very low BQ , so whats the harm in people with Native ancestry getting together and reestablishing themselves as a tribe ?"
 

Probably things like graphic personal stories ( if people feel safe to share them ) ,  brief summeries of some of the specific damage done by some of the exploiters/ frauds listed in NAFPS, together with a link to the thread this is discussed in , and general explainations about some of the problems we have seen  , all might help people to understand why we are so concerned about frauds and exploiters here .

I probably would like to contribute to this thread myself , but there is so many problems , begining to explain them all is a bit overwhelming . It seems some people honestly don't understand what the problems are , so maybe we could try and explain this for them , in this thread ?
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: debbieredbear on March 30, 2007, 11:40:46 pm
Thanks for starting this thread. The first thing thats jumped into my mind was the stereotypes being sold and the pan-Indianism.

  I'll deal with what I think of the stereotypes first. The problem in this is that people that are sol;d these lies, then expect real Indians to behave in the fantasy they bel;ieve. When that doesn't happen, they become upset and sometimes angry with real Indians.That is actually how I got into writing letters to nuage papers and decrying the frauds. Some woman, having been sold a bill of goods by heywhatever Storm and Lynn (barf!) Andewes, went to a rez to seek out her  teacher. Well, what she found is that Indians are all to human and she was furious. At us. Not at the frauds who lied but at Indians. I wrote a letter to that paper saying that maybe she should take a good look in the mirror and then go complain to the store that sold her the books.

That leads me to the pan-Indianism thing. The frauds put out stuff that lead to the idea that there is one monolithic "Indian religion." As opposed to the reality that there are as many different beiefs as there are nations. The sad thing for me is the Indian people that also buy into this. A friend was told by a man of Choctaw heritage that he preferred the Lakota ways because they are more macho! How sad is that? And another was in the sweat when a man of Cherokee heritage prayed his thanks for the Lakota people "who brought the religion". They didn't bring MINE! And then there is the guy local here who told a Suquamish friend, regarding ceremony, "This is Suquamish. We can do what we want." Neither he nor his wife is Suquamish and he was clueless as to how offensive this was to the woman he spoke to. He has since brought sundance and peyote to this rez. Neither are part of the culture here. I have friends who say that pan-Indianism is a form of genocide.
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: frederica on March 31, 2007, 01:06:16 am
I think Pan-Indianism is definately a form of genocide. I could go into a rant, but I guess I won't. I have seen some of the clubs, mostly claim they are Cherokee, but have a tipi for demonstration to tourist. Use Aho when they pray, which I believe is Lakota, and use it for Amen. Most of what they know came from the Boy Scouts. A friend told me when they had a Stomp a group from Ohio asked if they could come and observe. They were given permission with the understanding of NO Tape Recorders. Well, guess what they did. The Nation found out and they are barred from ever coming back. Another example, someone here, Nuager defending her stance, made the statement "they were preserving the Ceremony as we were dying out," and they were saving it. They have no one's permission to do this. Aside from the corruption of Ceremony, the entitlement is so bold. I have tried to decide were this comes from and really cannot. I don't know what part of the country where it may be worst. And I doubt if people will give you the real reasons. Some of the things they incorporate into the History of the Tribe as being from Atlantis, Outerspace, Lost Tribes of Israel or decendent from mushrooms is more cult like and that really makes you wonder. I am sure there is an agenda. frederica
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 04, 2007, 04:19:06 pm
Most of what I have seen hasn't been outright selling ceremonies and often the problems I've seen  aren't complete frauds . It just seems when native traditions get taken out of the balance provided by a knowledgable Native community things go wrong and people get hurt .

I think the main common denominator with all these situations is that these people were not authorized to lead ceremonies for the Native community they originated in  , or for the Native communtiy they were supposedly taught by , ( almost always this tracks back to Lakota )

While some of these people may have learned from some good teachers , in all these cases the way these people became empowered with the responsibility of being a Spiritual leader , was through the recognition of a mainly non native or PODIA audience . 

Perople who decide they want to be medicine people , are often attracted by the power , prestige and attention . Some mean well but don't know what they are doing a lot of the time . Others are just con artists and bottom feeders . While some of these people may do some good , they also can do a lot of damage . 

Deleting / altering some details to protect peoples privacy really takes a lot of the punch out of these incidents . What gets posted in NAFPS is only the tip of the ice burg of the abuse that happens ...

Some of the things I have seen ;

I've seen many people who attend ceremonies who have an experince they don't know how to integrate , because they don't have the cultural background or the support of a traditional community . It's not uncommon for these people to go through deep personal struggles . These people often do really silly things , from trying to be Indian when they aren't , by dying their hair and surrounding themselves with dream catchers and pictures of wolves ,  or creating a New Age buisness that includes a few Native props or "teachings" .

I have seen four people who attended some sort of ceremonies, who afterwards went totally off the deep end . One person who was Native who got involved with questionable people they did not know , who were using some kind of traditional Medicine, and afterwards they got so confused they ended up needing to be instituationalized for awhile . In this situation this person did have their families traditional understanding and support , but they had gotten involved with people and traditions they didn't know .

Three of these people who were non native went delusional after attending ceremonies , one imaginging they were descended from a famous Indian went around in nothing but a blanket until they were picked up by police . The other two just annoyed their communities and families for months with longwinded delusions about what powerful medicine/ shamanic powers they were .

I know of two instances where people who had been abused as children were completely devastated to learn the "Elder" they became involved with outside of a native community  was a convicted pedophile , who was not well thought of in their own community .

I know four instances where the "Medicine men" who were leading ceremonies outside the native community were habitually violent . One woman required time in a hospital to recover .

I know two instances where women were sexually fondled after being told it was part of the ceremony  " healing ".

The thing that is really devasting is that when these abuses happen , people who are the followers of these unhealthy people don't want to believe anything bad about their 'medicine man' and in every case i have seen the abuse is denied and the victim is blamed, not the abuser . Many Native and mixed blood people who are disconnected from their families and tribes got disconnected through abuse , so a repeat of abuse together with  denial and rejection of the truth , can be completely devastating .

I saw one instance where a woman with a health problem read a book by a popular well known New Age author who made up "traditional Native teachings". This woman believed this book and she believed her illness was someone attacking her energetic body , so she tried to deal with it 'Spiritualy ' . When
she at last went to a doctor it was too late and she died .

A person I knew went to a medicine woman who charged for healing ,because of anxiety attacks . The fake medicine woman shamanicly journeied and found a alleged "memory" of this persons relative sexually abusing them . When the anxiety didn't go away , this fraud did another shamanic journy found another relative who had abused the person seeking help . This went on and on until this fraud had the person conviced their whole family had sexually abused them . Years later and with more competant psychological help the person came to understand it had only been one relative who abused them , but in the meantime many of the family members who had been acused of horrible things had died having being wrongly accused of abuse they never commited , and the rest of their family hates them for making false accustions , and now this person has to live with that .

I knew a Native person in the city who was disconnected from their family and tribe . They were suffering from depression and grew up in an alchoholic family . They began participating in ceremonies with someone they thought was an Elder . After a couple years the "Elder" left town after stealing a large sum of money from someone . Which left the depressed woman even more depressed and feeling cynical and ambivalent about the traditions and Elders in general.

I knew a mixed blood Grandma who had never known much about her roots and she was wanting to introduce her grandkids to traditions . She breifly got sucked into a non native woman promising to teach traditions and get you a power animal for $$$ Once grandma realized it was scam she gave up trying to get the grandkids in touch with their traditions because there is too many con artists out there .

I know an mixblood person who's family has continuously lived within a native community and participated in tribal traditions Now when this person tries to participate in the Sundance they have to contend with constant hostility from some other dancers and elders , who come from somewhere else and don't know his family , because he doesn't look Native . The bad feelings all these frauds and exploiters create affects people on the margins or who look more non native. They get blamed for the abuse of traditions,  even if they have never done anything like this themselves . 

I know sincere mixed blood people who have difficulty finding out anything about their family , even though their family is known to the tribe ,because so many people are abusing this information to try and "get" something .

I know people in Native communities who have stopped attending community events because it is too hard to participate in a ceremony when known frauds and exploiters have pushed their way into leadership positions .

Much of these bad experinces did not just affect the individual who made the bad descision to trust these dubious characters . The persons family , community and friends all get draged through it .

The true traditional Elders are awesome and inspirational human beings . And it isn't all about ceremonies . It is in the way they carry themselves and live their lives . All the true traditional elders and medicine people i have known have been humble . They avoid the spot light , expect when something needs to be done that requires they step into it .  I have never seen a true traditional person advertise themselves in any way, or engage in self promotion .  Traditional leaders tend to consider the welfare of others before they consider the welfare of themselves . They tend to have a deep understanding of what is going on from the point of view of the person they are communicating with and they get to the point . Traditional leaders are self disciplined and tend to be gentle , kind and polite and respectful , even when people do not deserve this , in yet they usually manage to do this while being entirely honest and truthful . Traditional leaders are suprisingly intellegent and tend to see the big picture . This expanded vision causes their actions to truely be for the good of the People . Traditional Elders give us a sense of direction and a inspire a sense of faith and the aspirition to mature into the goodness we all have as our potential.
 
For anyone who knows the power and goodness of true Elders and traditional leaders , it is doubly painful to see the traditions they carry corupted into a tool to take advantage of people . 

The cause of this coruption gaining the power to do this damage , is that people do not seek out and recognize proper tribal authorities when looking to learn about their heritage , together with the willingness of a non native audience to support exploiters and frauds because  it appeals to some romantic fantasy of "Indian wisdom" .

One of the common patterns of colonization has been the failure of colonists to recognize the authorities who were selected from within the Native community to represent the community interests. Instead , non native people all too often have only recognized those who they think will benifit nonnative  intrests . This lack of respect for the voices of the true Spiritual leaders within native communities , is very much the same racist attitudes that led to genocide in the past and that continue to lead to genocide today .
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Freija on April 04, 2007, 04:35:15 pm
I probably would like to contribute to this thread myself , but there is so many problems , begining to explain them all is a bit overwhelming . It seems some people honestly don't understand what the problems are , so maybe we could try and explain this for them , in this thread ?

And maybe the saddest part of it all: why should you even have to explain? Shouldn´t it just be enough with a "Don´t do it!" from the different cultures that have built their communities round ancient wisdom and spirituality. We non-Natives should just take "no" for an answer and the only questions asked should be to prevent the wrongdoing to happen again. Native people should not have to explain and rectify and defend themselves for wanting to keep what is theirs.

Oh well....just dreaming, Moma_porcupine, :-\   I am dreaming of a perfect world sometimes... ;D
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: debbieredbear on April 04, 2007, 05:21:09 pm
I wish it was just that easy too.;)

And I wish people that I like and care about didn't get so defensive when I tried to tell them why it is wrong. "But there is a lot of love there so what's the harm?" "But I heard him speak and what he said didn't seem so bad so what's the harm in it?" "But a person has to support his/her self so if he charges what's the harm?" The latter I answered with "Well, he could do like husband's cousin did and GET A JOB!" Imagine that. A person doing cereemony and working a regular job too. But that's what the two people tht I know.knew (one has died) did in their lives,. They worked all day, 40 or more hours a week and then did ceremony/healing/whatever. And they rarely kept any of the money they made beause after tay paid their bills and bought groceries, there was always someone who needed what was left more than they did. And being the kind of people they were/are, they gave the money away. So I get kinda pissy when I see some fat assed jerk, claiming to be a "shaman", with his hand out for money.
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on April 04, 2007, 11:01:09 pm
Excellent post, Moma_porcupine.  Thank you for taking the time to write it.
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Laurel on April 09, 2007, 12:49:38 pm
"But there is a lot of love there so what's the harm?"

There is no such thing as love without respect.  Why isn't the following OK?

"You're Catholic?  Wow, I love Catholics, you're all so cool and spiritual!  Hey, who's your patron saint?  I'm 1/32nd Catholic, you know.  I can't prove it, but my mom always told me my great-grandma was an altar boy.  Can I come to your church and run a Mass?  Why not?  Father Supercool High Pooh-Bah Popeman Two Saints made me a priest last Tuesday at a Zen Catholicism workshop!  Look, here's my rosary, it's rilllly sacred!  Anyway, you're just a bigot!  Stop judging me!  Crapping on your heritage and belief system is my spirituality. I had a vision where Jesus told me to do it and it makes me happy!  By the way, can I touch your holy medal?"
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: debbieredbear on April 09, 2007, 04:34:46 pm
Laurel,

ROFLMAO!  ;D ;D ;D

I will try and tremember that the next time I get that response! Haha!
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: weheli on April 09, 2007, 08:36:16 pm
Laurel,
You have spoken so very much and with few words. VERY well spoken.
Thanks. the bottom line is what you have spoken PERIOD!
                                                                                  Wado Weheli
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Laurel on April 10, 2007, 11:20:29 am
Thanks, weheli and debbieredbear.  If only there were no need for me to be so very snide....

debbie, your point about money is very well made.  No community is obligated to provide complete financial support for a spiritual leader.  Seems to me that can only lead to trouble in most cases.

I've been on this planet for 42 years now and I still don't get how we white folks can be so rude.  Like the guy who drove up to an Indian museum near Memphis in a complete lather, saying his wife, "a Cherokee shaman," was waiting in the car and he wanted to know if anyone there could teach her.  Now.  (Never mind that the folks affiliated with the museum were all Choctaw; he hadn't bothered to so much as call ahead to find that out.)  He said he had just driven there from NC, where the Cherokee "weren't very friendly," which I interpreted to mean they didn't want to hand his wife all their "shamanic secrets" in a fast food bag when these two just showed up there out of nowhere too--knowing nothing but that there had to be lots of Indians where there were so many plastic tomahawks, I guess.... >:( 

Really.  He walked right up to the ticket counter and started his tale of woe with "My wife is a Cherokee shaman."  I guess instead of wondering how he could be so rude I should ask how the folks who had to deal with him could be so polite.   
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: debbieredbear on April 10, 2007, 04:13:53 pm
OMG! I don't know how they could be so polite either! But I have seen this type of ignorance. I went to hear Wilma Mankiller speak. She gave a wonderful speech about how the Cherokee Nation had helped build syotm drains, water systems, sewage trtment etc in the surrounding white communities because it was a good thing to do. Both for their neighbors and for them. And after this speech she asked for questions,. I swear, the first question was "My great great grandmother was a Cherokee princess so how do I get enrolled and how much money can I get?" To her credit, Mankiller was very polite and suggested the woman call the tribal office.
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Freija on April 10, 2007, 05:55:54 pm
 :-[   Ewwwh, I experience these kind of things every time I bring over a Native guy on a speaking tour. I remember this really nice Navajo guy who came over to speak about the Elders/elderly people up Big Mountain and their struggle for survival. He spoke for one hour about this, it was very emotional and very sad. Then it was quiet for a couple of minutes and suddenly I heard this woman saying: "Can I tell you about my Indian spirit guide now?" 

It´s like punching someone right in the face, it is like saying: "I don´t care a **** if your people live or die over there, let´s talk about me instead." It is surprising that they don´t even hear how rude they are!
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Laurel on April 10, 2007, 05:58:20 pm
debbieredbear--How mortifying.  Some people really know how to keep it together.  Maybe it's something she got used to though.  In my experience, no matter what race or who the speaker is, there's always a yutz in the audience.  I'm just happy when it isn't me.  

Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: frederica on April 10, 2007, 06:36:43 pm
That's part of the problem with the Nuage it is all about them. frederica
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: weheli on April 10, 2007, 09:40:37 pm
You see that is where things get all twisted. Many think they can "become" without the TRUE Knowing".
There IS NO CHEROKEE SHAMAN!!! of course the Eastern Cherokee of NC would treat someone who walks up and says, as though they had every right to, "my wife is a Cherokee Shaman", LOL, would be treated as they were, and than having said "My wife is a Cherokee Shaman" which implies to those who don't know the Cherokee Teachings, That she must "have the knowledge" to than ask for her to be taught, for those who do know, is a laughable matter!!!

Again I say, these teachings are learned from birth, passed down. GO spend time and do volunteer work! You will be watched very carefully for a long period of time, LONG period of TIme. You don't go in search of an Elder, they WIll find you.
                                                                              Weheli
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Laurel on April 11, 2007, 11:07:23 am
It was beyond laughable--it made me wonder about their sanity.

Think about it:  They got in their car somewhere and drove to a place where they knew nobody to beg for spiritual training by saying they already had it because the white woman in the car is not really white and claims to be an impossible thing--like a unicorn.  Then they drove all the way to Memphis to stop, and this had to be completely at random, at a museum where some Choctaw currently live.  The guy ran in all out of breath and asked for someone to teach his "Cherokee shaman" wife as if it were a matter of national security. All I can imagine is that whenever they stopped for directions anywhere, the husband would grab the nearest service station emplyee by the neck and yell, "Where are the Indians?  I have an Indian in my car and she needs Indians to teach her how to be an Indian right now!"  ("TAKE ME TO YOUR UNICORNS!")  His wife was hiding in the car throughout the incident BTW; she couldn't take a "rejection" like they got in NC. 

That's just nutty, nutty to a level I thought I'd only ever encounter on the internet.   :)
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on April 11, 2007, 04:56:48 pm
Oh, they're real, and they're out there. I wonder about this guy's sanity: he's Dennis Avner aka Catman who represents himself at tattoo conventions as 'part Huron', and that his 'totem animal' is the tiger. People walk away from gawping at him knowing less about Indians than they did before. They don't learn about the Wyandotte people's long history or its struggles and controversies today. They learn that 'Hurons' have 'totem animals'.

(http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2005/08/15/2002441201.jpg) (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/photogalleries/localnews694/6.html)
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: weheli on April 11, 2007, 05:01:39 pm
 ;D ;D ;D Barnaby,
I have seen this guy on TV and "HIS STORY". LOL
Laurel I am laughing so hard and shaking my head,chocking on my coffee as I read your post. Thanks for a good Belly Laugh..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
                                                                           Weheli
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on April 11, 2007, 05:08:56 pm
It's funny but it's so wrong on so many levels. I really do wonder about his sanity.
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: frederica on April 11, 2007, 05:33:50 pm
LOL, I can't say what I'm really thinking, but that borders on the absurd. I agree this guy has a big problem. If he had a brain he take it out and play with it. frederica
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Laurel on April 12, 2007, 09:29:51 am
weheli, always glad to amuse, but put the coffee down!  I'm not buying you a new monitor if you spit-take.   :)   

I had no idea that tiger dude claimed Native heritage.  Ye gods.  Don't you wish you had the money he put into those "whisker" implants alone?  What about that guy who's trying to turn himself into a lizard or something, what's he? A Bushman, an Aborigine, a Sami?  The only nation these folks can claim real membership in is the Wakjabi Tribe.   
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: wolfhawaii on April 15, 2007, 01:06:46 am
I have hesitated for many months before deciding to post on the topic of money and ceremony. It is very clear when there is obvious abuse going on regarding ceremonies when people  are connected to their own traditions.  What I have not seen in any of the discussions I have been reading on this site, is that there are native traditions in which it was/is expected that the person seeking healing pay for it. I recently read a book about California native healers who charged for their services long before the New Age got interested in Indian ceremonies. (Yeah, I read a book, big deal  ;) ) I mention that only to illustrate that there are traditions in which that was the norm. For the Cherokees out there, a careful reading of Mooney will also illustrate this practice, which continues to this day. Mooney was not always correct on all his information but there was a lot of accurate historical and current info there at the time he was writing. I personally know of current Cherokee medicine people who accept "gifts" for their services. They don't "charge" fees, but it is culturally understood that a suitable gift (money in particular) is a vital part of the medicine, and if the gift is weak, the medicine may be also as the spiritual correspondence is linked. The time and sacrifices made to continue these ancient healing practices is significant, and the person seeking healing should be invested in the result for it to have the best effect.
I don't want to go too much more in depth in discussing this but I would like to hear responses if anyone cares to comment. regards, Steve
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on April 15, 2007, 07:06:23 am
"But there is a lot of love there so what's the harm?"

There is no such thing as love without respect.  Why isn't the following OK?

"You're Catholic?  Wow, I love Catholics, you're all so cool and spiritual!  Hey, who's your patron saint?  I'm 1/32nd Catholic, you know.  I can't prove it, but my mom always told me my great-grandma was an altar boy.  Can I come to your church and run a Mass?  Why not?  Father Supercool High Pooh-Bah Popeman Two Saints made me a priest last Tuesday at a Zen Catholicism workshop!  Look, here's my rosary, it's rilllly sacred!  Anyway, you're just a bigot!  Stop judging me!  Crapping on your heritage and belief system is my spirituality. I had a vision where Jesus told me to do it and it makes me happy!  By the way, can I touch your holy medal?"

"And do you want me to baptize your children?  I speak a little Catholic.  I can give them power names like 'Saint' and 'Martyr' and 'StationOfTheCross' or 'Kabbalah'.  OK, I know that last one isn't strictly Catholic, but my father is 1/32nd Judeo-something!  I think his great great grandmother was a Kabbalah Princess, and her spiritual name was Goyim."

 ;)
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on April 15, 2007, 07:17:28 am
They don't learn about the Wyandotte people's long history or its struggles and controversies today. They learn that 'Hurons' have 'totem animals'.

And he knows about all those tigers living in secret in Oklahoma and Kansas!  He must really have some sooper-seekrit-shameonic wisdom!  I'm sure right now the "Cherokee Shaman"s husband is pounding on his door.
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: educatedindian on April 15, 2007, 01:10:08 pm
Steve,
Thought about putting your question and the replies in a separate thread until I looked again at Moma P's initial questions.

I think the difference is between accepting payment as a sign of esteem, respect, and gratitude compared to *demanding up front* a huge and fixed payment obviously designed to squeeze as much profit as possible out of the mark/victim.

I've heard this objection before too. I know the Karuk and Navajo might *seem* to accept payment in cash. For Navajo medicine people, that payment actually is mostly to cover the expense of ceremony, materials, and esp the cost of a feast for all involved including relatives of the one being healed.

But to compare that to some Nuager going online to set up an elaborate website and rental of a business suite (Scarlet McKinney said she spends 40 grand a year on these), demanding a set price usually in the thousands, Visa and Mastercard and Paypal accepted...the two practices are very different.

The set price practice of Nuagers also is very crass and disrespectful. Native medicine people never say, This is the cost. More often they'd accept what the person being healed is able to give, even if it's just a good meal or a homemade blanket. And if cash is given, any left over after paying for the materials tends to be given away quickly to others in need. All the traditions I know of say a healer is supposed to be generous by nature or people stop respecting them and spirits quit talking to them.
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 15, 2007, 03:10:51 pm
Hi Steve
I don't know much beyond the basics , but I have always got the feeling Spiritual guidence is a bit different than healing .

Probably it is different in different places , but the way I have seen it ,appreciation for assistance in personal healing is usually shown with a gift after the healing . This seems to be done in a similar way to buying groceries and giving something as a gift when you stay at someones house . I have never seen a set fee or advertising , and I have heard many comments from traditional people and Elders that this is not rightly done . I once saw someone who saved a childs life helped out decades later , by the extended family of the child that was saved . When people are helped in communities where
 they have life long relationships, people remember that help , and show their gratitude. But I haven't seen a set fee before hand . My intuition is that is partly because it would be arrogant to presuppose the outcome of a healing done mainly by Spiritual agents that are not owned by the healer .

Advertising also seems to be offensive . I am guessing one of the reasons might be because healing that involves more than basic plant medicines, can be dangerous if things aren't right , and traditional healers might not be comfortable assuming they can help everyone with any sort of problem . I know people who felt they needed one type of healing who went to a medicine person , and they were offered something very different than what they expected , so advertising for a specific type of a healing ceremony , might be seen as prematurely nailing things down .       

In a traditional community people usually know to make sure Elders and Spiritual leaders have what they need , and if something takes a lot of time , or energy , people usually know enough to make sure that no one suffers a loss for having given of their time and energy . But it is only the New Age or non native community that tends to see "Spiritual teachings" as something for "self improvement", which might be "gotten " in exchange for money .  Within a traditional community the morals and values taught by Spiritual leaders benifit the whole community  , and the idea that anyone would charge someone to learn to be a better member of the community , or that someone might have a right to charge admissioin to a relationship with powers greater than ourselves, seems really disrespectful and arrogant .

As Freija says , just the fact that in most traditions Native Elders feel charging for ceremonies , Spiritual teachings and ceremonial items is wrong, should be enough . Elders usually know what they are talking about , and there is good reasons things are done as they are .

All over the world  , most religions find the idea of charging people an admission fee to have a relationship with a higher  power offensive , and most Spiritual traditons manage to run on some system of collectiong donations . There is probably a good reason for that .

Moral teachings and values seem to be the backbone of all the worlds Spiritual traditons , but when people start charging this backbone gets downplayed or even removed . Charging money for Spiritual support and guidence reduces the function of Spirituality in our lives,  to a personal feel good experience . Charging for Spirituality shifts the focus away from our responsibilities , and learning what we as individuals have to give , to what people stand to get . For themselves .  Which right away is not what Spiritual teachings were originally intended to be doing .

While it might make sense to charge people for something they are going to get , it doesn't make sense to charge people for learning what they have a responsibility to give back to the community .  Reducing the moral values of a culture to a feel good experience that involves mainly the more colorful dramatic parts of the culture , and a consumeristic desire to "get more of the good stuff" , degrades and trivializes the true purpose and function of a cultures Spirituality .
     
Money attracts the wrong people with the wrong motivations , and can create a subtle pressure to pass on knowledge to those who can pay , rather than to those with the characters best suited to serve the community with this traditional knowledge. Within a traditional community it seems just the help of someone who had the ability to contribute more , as a result of having been taught , would be more than adaquet compensation .

Money can also motivate people who don't know what they are doing to become "healers" or "Spiritual leaders' , and healers and Spiritual leaders that don't know what they are doing can be dangerous .

I only know very basic information , and I have pieced this together from various comments and things I have seen. If any of this is incorrect or if anyone  has a better or different understanding , I hope they will share it.

Every tribe probably has slightly different traditions , but Richard Allen who is a spokesperson for the CNO wrote an article explaining the Cherokee traditions around advertising , charging , and payment , which is helpful . It can be accessed through the link below .   

http://web.archive.org/web/20051207172424/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/art00001.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20051207172424/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/art00001.htm)
Richard Allan
Quote
Cherokee medicine people and spiritual leaders are known to the Cherokee people and do not practice medicine for a fee nor sell "shamanic" lessons to anyone. They do not advertise their services through any form of media and certainly not over the internet. Traditional Cherokee healers and spiritual leaders provide their services to the Cherokee people. A Cherokee medicine person or spiritual leader is fluent in the Cherokee language and would conduct any medical or spiritual practices by using the Cherokee language. Therefore, our medicine people are those who were born of a Cherokee mother and a Cherokee father and would have been reared within a Cherokee community speaking the Cherokee language. Our traditional Cherokee healers and spiritual leaders are humble people and would not present themselves as such nor "hang out a shingle" so to speak. Cherokee medicine people are acknowledged and recognized by members of the Cherokee community as effective healers and leaders.

It is the recognition of the Cherokee people that validates these persons as medicine people and healers not self-proclaimation. We may provide them small gifts, a token amount of money or foodstuffs in payment for their services. They do not charge for their services nor would they withhold their services when asked and they certainly would not prescribe payment by credit card.

Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: AndreasWinsnes on April 16, 2007, 01:29:42 am
Evenk shamans and other healers in Siberia never demand money, but everybody knows that it is proper to offer a gift to the person in appreciation of his or her help. Poor people give little, rich people offer more. It all depends on your situation. It can be food or something else. Nowadays, it is usual to offer money, because you don't know what the healers actually need, and it is not proper to ask in advance. People who demands money are not considered real healers. Real healers survive easily without demanding money, because people support them with gratitude. It is a kind of exchanging gifts, supporting each other in a world that can be brutal.   
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: wolfhawaii on April 17, 2007, 02:40:15 am
Good Comments ;) My edutsi (clan uncle) told me that Cherokee medicine people are like priests in that they have a long formal period of study which does not deviate from what they are taught by a qualified adanawisgi. Shamans, on the other hand, often receive a direct personal revelation from the spirits which allows them to be helpers. This of course makes fraud more likely and difficult to prove. If a Cherokee person received a shamanistic revelation, then they could be a shaman who happened to be Cherokee, but it would not make them a "Cherokee Shaman" as this is not the traditional norm. Set fees and demands for payments should be a red flag in all cases, and community service to the people they come from and a known track record of effective help should exist. Regards, Steve
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Freija on April 17, 2007, 09:01:21 am
I´d like to add to the "What´s the harm?"-question.  There is also a question of the spiritual part of it, of which I know very little but have heard the explanations from Lakota medicinepeople. In order for the spirits to come in to ceremonies, the protocol must be followed in every detail. When people are playing round with these things, the songs and prayers loose their power, the spirits will realize they are being called down to a faked ceremony and finally they won´t come in at all, even to the real ceremonies. This is of course devostating and is truly a spiritual/cultural genocide. In fact, when we talked to elders in SD this was one of their biggest worries in connection with the appropriation of their spirituality.

(I hope I got this right or maybe someone would like to correct me? )



Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Laurel on April 17, 2007, 09:51:54 am
Freija,

I don't know whether it's true, but it sounds very reasonable.  If spirits are anything like people or animals, then they will only be jacked around for so long.   :-[

Very sad, and very frightening.

Laurel
Title: Re: "But whats the harm?"
Post by: Juliet on May 06, 2007, 02:58:25 pm
It's too bad there are no more unclaimed lands on Earth.  We could get together and advertise 'Wakjabi Land', where all the plastic shamans and their followers can go and live in the 'traditional manner', free from interference by all those nasty old real Indians and other traditional peoples.

That tiger guy won't look so photogenic in another 40 or so years.  Not when natural aging makes his add-ons look ridiculous.