NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: tachia on January 30, 2007, 12:04:36 pm

Title: Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: tachia on January 30, 2007, 12:04:36 pm
i found aspects of this distrubing .. check it out .. dig around in the site a bit .. let me know what you think ..

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/index.htm
click the picture to enter the site
 
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on January 30, 2007, 12:39:09 pm
What a strange site.

[Barnaby's note: Lekay's address and phone number, retrieved via whois, removed because it's no longer available via whois. I told Lekay via PM I'd remove it when he amended his site's whois info. He claimed that we were harassing him by posting information he had negligently made public when he registered his domain.]



Quote
John LeKay, born 1961 in London, England, privately educated, began his career as a painter and filmmaker; worked at Pinewood film studios and a circus, later turned to making sculpture in the early 80s and is considered to be one of the most innovative and influential artists of his time, referred to as a sculptural alchemist.

http://www.johnlekay.com/John%20Website%20Files/johnweb.BIO-1.Htm

One thing I find disturbing is that Lekay promotes (with an extremely tasteless photo) Kevin Annett (http://sisis.nativeweb.org/resschool/sep2898coj.html), whose name will be known to many in connection with the campaigns for justice for the victims of the residential schools in Canada.
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: educatedindian on January 30, 2007, 03:29:22 pm
Promoting Suzanne Depree/"Looking Back Woman," Pete V Catches, ajnd David Swallows. We have a thread about Depree that will interest you, including what a lot of big names say about her getting virtually every fact wrong.

Most of this magazine is non-Native artists promoting environmental causes for Natives, but I have no idea what promoting the phony claims of Dupree and her trashing Looking Horse has to do with that.
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on January 30, 2007, 11:54:57 pm
Promoting Suzanne Depree/"Looking Back Woman," Pete V Catches, ajnd David Swallows. We have a thread about Depree that will interest you, including what a lot of big names say about her getting virtually every fact wrong.

Most of this magazine is non-Native artists promoting environmental causes for Natives, but I have no idea what promoting the phony claims of Dupree and her trashing Looking Horse has to do with that.

that is what first caught my attention .. huge promotion of dupree .. and if you dig in the previous issues there is also promotion of "rolling thunder" and a few others that seemed 'wrong' but that i did not know of personally .. .. the mag seems to promote some dubious people and questionable "things" ..
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on May 30, 2007, 06:32:57 pm


Yes it is disturbing. Totally agree with you and feel the same way about most of what I read and see on the site. Especially about the environment in South Dakota and what Kevin Annett has told me regarding the situation in Canada. He asked me to post the "tasteless" photo by the way.  Also what Bob Robideau told me about Ana Mae. Yes its very disturbing.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.PAINTINGS.RobertRobideau.

Most people have no idea about any of this. Fortunately this site reaches millions every month or so all over the world.

My question to you is do you mean that since I'm a white guy doing this, you find it disturbing?

In response to "Most of this magazine is non-Native artists promoting environmental causes for Natives, but I have no idea what promoting the phony claims of Dupree and her trashing Looking Horse has to do with that".

Yes that's absolutely correct, it is mostly about the environment, but its not just about the environment even though Defenders of the Black Hills and the Silkwood project issues is a priority.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and view. People make claims and allegations all the time. people criticize, invalidate and "Trash" people all the time based on conjecture, intuition, speculation, hearsay, gossip and third party information. Most of the time its not always on fact, logic, reason or truth. 

I am in no way implying she has done this or am defending her claims, (justified or "phoney" )or am criticizing her either.  Not am I promoting her or anyne else.  I am not anyone PR person.

The interview with Looking Back Woman is about her claims about the Canupa her father Calvin Dupree gave her. There is no doubt this is Fools Crows ceremonial Sundance Canunpa. No one disputes this. Even the people you cited. I know since I as privy to this feed you posted and much much more for many months.

She answered most of my questions. I think her position is crystal clear.  My intention was to find out exactly what this is, who she is and what this issue is about. This is impossible to know from just an interview. I still don't know the answers and much of this is still surrounded in mystery.

From what I have been told by various medicine people and elders, Lakota, Cree, Navajo, Apache, Cherekee, all canupa are sacred. I don't think that is the question.

As far as Rolling Thunder is concerned I have read all the negative commentary about him. I never net him but know others that knew him very well and lived with him.

I still find him interesting for many reasons.  That's why I posted the old interview from the 70s.

As far as plastic medicine men and shamans and wanna be new medicine men or new age white guys doing sweat lodges, what else is new. Freud runs in every culture. The world is riddled with cults and all this nonsense and con artists. if you want to know my views on all this stuff, they are similar to this mans.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.PHILOS.UG.Khrishnamurti.htm


Anyone who claims they are enlightened in my book they are not. Anyone who calls them selves holy they are not. As far as being sacred, we all are. Everything is. At a subatomic level feces and a diamond is the same thing. That makes you or I or anyone else no better than feces on that level including all these so called holy people.





Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on May 31, 2007, 08:15:06 am

(my response is in bold)

john ..
i received your email today .. was about to reply when i saw that you had posted in here .. so i am going to respond in here .. i cannot speak for anyone but myself .. so please know that this response is merely my own opinions .. ..


Yes it is disturbing. Totally agree with you and feel the same way about most of what I read and see on the site. Especially about the environment in South Dakota and what Kevin Annett has told me regarding the situation in Canada. He asked me to post the "tasteless" photo by the way.  Also what Bob Robideau told me about Ana Mae. Yes its very disturbing.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.PAINTINGS.RobertRobideau.
i think that we would all agree that the things you have pointed out here are disturbing .. with some variations on what exactly is disturbing  .. apparently there is content that i find disturbing that you do not .. and therein lies the problem ..

Most people have no idea about any of this. Fortunately this site reaches millions every month or so all over the world.
 
considering your choice of certain content, i would have to say that it is very unfortunate that this magazine reaches millions ..

My question to you is do you mean that since I'm a white guy doing this, you find it disturbing?
do i object to your choice of certain content for your magazine .. yes, i do .. do i object based on the fact that you’re a “white guy??? ..??.. absolutely not! .. why would i? .. my objection and disapproval is never a race issue, it is about what is right and what is wrong .. ..

In response to "Most of this magazine is non-Native artists promoting environmental causes for Natives, but I have no idea what promoting the phony claims of Dupree and her trashing Looking Horse has to do with that".
Yes that's absolutely correct, it is mostly about the environment, but its not just about the environment even though Defenders of the Black Hills and the Silkwood project issues is a priority.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and view. People make claims and allegations all the time. people criticize, invalidate and "Trash" people all the time based on conjecture, intuition, speculation, hearsay, gossip and third party information. Most of the time its not always on fact, logic, reason or truth. 
I am in no way implying she has done this or am defending her claims, (justified or "phoney" )or am criticizing her either.  Not am I promoting her or anyne else.  I am not anyone PR person.
i spend very long hours researching a person as thoroughly as i can before forming an opinion of them .. this whole group does this .. i do not go around “trashing??? people based on “conjecture, intuition, speculation, hearsay, gossip and third party information??? .. i do not 'trash' people period .. i will, and do, form an educated opinion and speak to others about the person/s in question .. as well as attempting to warn others of the persons motives if they are nefarious ..
you are giving people, like dupree, maximum exposure .. you do not question the credibility of these frauds and therefore your readers do not question it either .. your articles/interviews come across to the reader as FACT .. come across to the reader as if these frauds truly were what they all claim to be .. this is misleading to say the very least .. and in my opinion it IS promotion of the frauds ..   there is not a hint of any of the frauds being other than that which they claim to be .. you are portraying the frauds solely  as they claim to be without question of their validity, credentials or their standing in the ndn nations/communities, without any reference to the opinions of what the ndn peoples themselves think of these individuals .. .. your promoting them to the 'millions' of readers  you have, thus garnering for them many more 'followers' .. which is exactly what all charlatans want .. are your articles/interviews of these frauds, like dupree, based on “fact, logic, reason or truth??? or based solely on what the frauds themselves are telling you is fact, logic, reason and truth? .. where is the objective reporting? .. where is the other side of the coin? .. where is the ndn perspective on these frauds?


The interview with Looking Back Woman is about her claims about the Canupa her father Calvin Dupree gave her. There is no doubt this is Fools Crows ceremonial Sundance Canunpa. No one disputes this. Even the people you cited. I know since I as privy to this feed you posted and much much more for many months.
i am sorry, but for you to state: “There is no doubt this is Fools Crows ceremonial Sundance Canunpa.??? is simply erroneous .. Fools Crow gave many pipes to many people .. perhaps there is little doubt that this is one of those pipes, one given to dupree’s father by Fools Crow .. yet is it THE Sacred Canupa, is it Fool Crows Personal ceremonial Canupa? .. no! .. .. it is a pipe, perhaps sacred, perhaps not, i would think that would depend on how it is now being used .. my personal opinion of how dupree is ‘attempting’ to use this pipe, is that she is profaning the sacred .. ..

She answered most of my questions. I think her position is crystal clear.  My intention was to find out exactly what this is, who she is and what this issue is about. This is impossible to know from just an interview. I still don't know the answers and much of this is still surrounded in mystery.
i would agree that she has made her position  “crystal clear??? .. it is exceedingly clear to myself as well as a great many others that she intends to set herself up as the 'new leading plastic-shame-on' for the lost wonderbread children .. with no thought to the ndn peoples themselves whatsoever .. .. .. you said she answered 'most' of your questions, i would be very interested in the questions she reused to answer for you, i believe many of us would .. ..  .. .. i would also agree that it would be impossible for you to know much about her at all, from just one  interview with her, and no research on her, nor any interviews from her detractors .. .. just how much is “shrouded in mystery??? and how much is intentionally cloaked in subterfuge and duplicity? ..

From what I have been told by various medicine people and elders, Lakota, Cree, Navajo, Apache, Cherekee, all canupa are sacred. I don't think that is the question.
indeed it is my understanding as well that all Canupa are Sacred when they are used in a sacred manner .. i am not of the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota etc (sioux) peoples, so it is not my place to speak of these things .. yet i will say that the Sacred Canupa is of the Lakota, etc. peoples .. and i can tell you for a fact that the Canupa is NOT Cree, Dine’ (navajo), Apache, nor Tsalagi (cherokee) .. individuals of these nations/tribes/bands might now possess a Canupa, yet it is not of their peoples .. we all had 'pipes', only the Lakota etc. had the Sacred Canupa .. your correct, all Canupas are sacred when used in a sacred manner, and whether or not the woman is in possession of her fathers Canupa, is not the question, yet there are many other questions that center around her possession and usage of her fathers Canupa .. ..

As far as Rolling Thunder is concerned I have read all the negative commentary about him. I never net him but know others that knew him very well and lived with him.
I still find him interesting for many reasons.  That's why I posted the old interview from the 70s.
so all of the “negative commentary about him??? is "negated by “third party information??? ..?? .. do you not think that those who were so obviously his followers, “knew him and lived with him??? would have other than negative opinions of him? .. or perhaps not, you don’t exactly say what these 'others??? who knew him, think of him .. i am merely left to assume that they spoke highly enough of him to negate all the negative you read and you still “find him interesting enough??? to promote him in your magazine ..again, where is the objectivity, the other side? .. 


As far as plastic medicine men and shamans and wanna be new medicine men or new age white guys doing sweat lodges, what else is new. Freud runs in every culture. The world is riddled with cults and all this nonsense and con artists.
the fact that this sort of thing exists, makes it alright??? .. this sort of thing is acceptable? .. we should all just accept this and do nothing to try to stop it? .. .. “what else is new??? .. ?? .. i find that attitude extremely flippant, as if you simply do not care .. which might explain why you promote these 'plastic shame-ons' and do absolutely nothing to even attempt to give another view of them ..

if you want to know my views on all this stuff, they are similar to this mans.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.PHILOS.UG.Khrishnamurti.htm
i, like many others, have only a dial up connection .. i cannot view vids .. yet i think you have made your views clear enough .. ..

Anyone who claims they are enlightened in my book they are not. Anyone who calls them selves holy they are not. As far as being sacred, we all are. Everything is. At a subatomic level feces and a diamond is the same thing. That makes you or I or anyone else no better than feces on that level including all these so called holy people.
perhaps you hold this opinion, because you have not ever met a truly 'enlightened' person' .. .. my opinion of the frauds you promote, by giving them center stage in your magazine, would most definitely be “feces??? . ..

all this being said .. it appears we have a very definite disagreement of opinion on these 'plastic shame-ons' and the biased way in which you portray them ..
 .. yet i would also like to commend you for your support of several of the Paha Sapa groups .. in particular, for your support of Harold One Feather, who is a friend of mine .. and who, btw, could use some support from you right now,.. as we speak, he is staging a “one man occupation???, in protest of the uranium poisoning of his peoples .. this occupation began on may 16 .. on may 21 he was served with an “eviction notice??? by the forest service .. although in a public statement to the rapid city newspaper, the forest service spokeswoman acknowledged that he was not doing anything illegal .. he was given 10 days to leave the national forest he is camping in  .. he faces arrest today, may 31 .. ..
other than the obviously inequitable coverage given to the frauds .. the magazine actually has some good articles and good coverage of a few ndn issues .. but, for me at least, the inequitable coverage given to the frauds destroys any credibility the magazine might have .. which is a shame considering that other than this, the magazine is informative and interesting .. i simply cannot condone, nor approve of, any publication that promotes frauds, no matter how good it may be in other content .. .. it simply seems 'two faced' to me .. on the one hand you support and promote 'plastic shame-ons' who dupe innocent people and cause great harm to all ndn peoples .. and on the other hand you support and promote several ndn environmental issues .. a contradiction which i cannot condone .. “with friends like you, who needs  enemies??? .. shrug .. any good that you do is negated with the harm that you perpetuate in your support and promotion of the frauds .. ..

perhaps you simply do not know that this too, is an ndn issue of grave importance with devastating consequences?  .. the proliferation of 'plastic shame-ons' IS a very crucial issue! ..

“The Spiritual and Cultural Misappropriation and Commodification of  the Indigenous Peoples???

perhaps you simply do not realize that this Issue is nothing less than Genocide for all indigenous peoples .. why bother to help the Paha Sapa groups save their lands and save lives,  when you advocate their genocide by supporting these frauds? ..

please forgive me for being harsh in my response .. i have no time, nor the inclination, to sugar coat this for you .. .. my words are not intended to offend anymore than yours are .. yet i am sure that you will be offended by my words just as i was by yours .. this being said .. perhaps we can begin a dialogue wherein we both come to understand each others views better? ..
in the spirit of my ancestors
tachia








Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on May 31, 2007, 10:32:27 pm

Hi Tachia,

Please list all the documents, links, articles or any other information that will prove that Looking Back Woman is a "fraud" and a "plastic shaman" What ever that means.

I don't mean gossip, hearsay, conjecture, fiction or your own personal opinion. What I'm looking for is incontrovertible evidence. 


Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: debbieredbear on May 31, 2007, 11:22:26 pm
Marlon,

How about YOU provide proof she's not? I have no dog in this fight, but since you are making demands, show YOUR proof.

BTW, the last time I was on your site, I saw an article about one of the pervert, Harley Reagan's "Twisted hairs" groupies. That doesn't impress me much.
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 01, 2007, 01:29:52 am
Hi Debbie,

Thanks for your kind words.

Now why do you think that I would even attempt to do something [insult] like that. I am not James Randi or out to debunk anyone. That's why your site is supposed to be about. 

What I am beginning to see is that's is blatantly obvious you have no evidence to substantiate your [insult] allegations.

That you have based this info on some empty gossip and an email. That doesn't look too substantial does it. As far as my site. trash it as much as you like. I will join in with you and [childish insult] [childish insult] [childish insult].
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 01, 2007, 02:05:21 am
Marlon , the link you can't seem to find , explaining some of what traditional people are feeling is wrong , is here ;

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=604.msg4766#msg4766 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=604.msg4766#msg4766)

 Re: Suzanne Dupree, aka Looking Back Woman
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2006, 07:37:15 PM »

Vivien High Elk
Quote
Paula, I was just looking and reading over some of this woman's account. It scared me to see pictures of a ceremony, you/we know as well not to record, take pictures of ceremonies, etc. Even to be discussing them. etc. This to me is like bragging. My father use to say: makis he wo'inapeke ki, tuwe heni hena hel ici page sni, nais ihan' han s'e iwogla ke sni . Cannupa ki he lila wakan, tuwe heni ikceya wayang ye sni, cante ojula wica yala kte heca. These are not to be discussed like this, this is something really fearsome, nobody talks about this type of (cannupa) sacredness like a common conversation, you cannot just go to see the pipe out of curiosity, your heart has to be in it, believe in it. The cannupa is a spirit and alive here in Pejito Wakpa.

Maybe, she is played by all of this, as my father use to say, beware, if you don't believe in it, don't go near it, if you play with it, it will play on you too. Maybe she needs to be educated on what we hold sacred, and these are, not bragging tools! Le miye ye. Vivian
----------------------

The cultural understanding , that these things are not talked about,  and posted up on the internet for the world to gawk at,  is very basic to most Native cultures .

You expect documentation and on line links ? to do with articles so Ancient and Sacred ? Even mentioning this on line feels to me to be disrespectful . I understand that this is a cultural thing , and maybe you don't understand what is so obvious to people more familiar with some aspects of traditional protocols , but just talking about some things on line , is really disturbing .

I want to make an analogy , and i apologize before hand if this is crude and I offend anyone . I am just using this analogy because maybe cultural differences make it hard for Marlon to "get it" . So I am using a cultural taboo he is probably more familiar with .

Imagine if someone posted a picture of of your grandmother , or your daughter , on line - naked - and we expected you to "prove" that whoever did this was a "nasty person' "Whatever that means .

And I don't mean gossip , hearsay , conjecture , fiction or your own personal opinion . What i am looking for is incontroveritable evidence ...

 Please list all the documents, links, articles or any other information that will prove that this is
" ~  wrong and not just that you are old fashioned / over protective / have issues with nudity ect ect ect .

Just that it offends a lot of traditional people should be all the "proof " you need something is wrong .

Hopefully this Looking Back Woman is not desecrating something , as close to the heart of the Lakota people as what she is trying to claim .
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on June 01, 2007, 03:56:42 am

Hi Tachia,

Please list all the documents, links, articles or any other information that will prove that Looking Back Woman is a "fraud" and a "plastic shaman" What ever that means.

I don't mean gossip, hearsay, conjecture, fiction or your own personal opinion. What I'm looking for is incontrovertible evidence. 


first and foremost .. you do not have my permission to print anything i say in your magazine .. .. this is a discussion .. this is not an interview .. i want to make that very clear .. ..

hi john ..

please list all the following  information to attempt to prove that “looking back woman??? is what she claims to be .. “incontrovertible evidence??? .. please make sure that all evidence is from the Federally Recognized Native American Indian (henceforth referred to as “Indian???) Nation/Tribe/Band (henceforth referred to as “Nation???) with whom she claims affiliation, its Recognized Leaders, Government, and Citizens .. etc .. please do not include any non-Federally Recognized Nation evidence as it will not be accepted .. ie, no endorsements from non-Federally Recognized Nations, non-Indian Peoples, non-Indian Groups, non-Indian Organizations etc .. as this sort of evidence can only be construed to be merely gossip, hearsay, conjecture, fiction, personal opinion etc of non-Indians ie “whites??? .. and we have an abundance of that, yet none from quantifiable Indian sources ..

1) is she an Enrolled Citizen of a Federally Recognized Indian Nation ..  if so, please provide the name of said Nation to which she is a Citizen and Enrolled member of ..

2) is she in possession of a valid and current Enrollment card issued in her name by said Nation ..  if so, please provide the pertinent information listed on said enrollment card ..

3) is she in possession of a valid and current CDIB card issued in her name ..  if so, please provide the pertinent information that is listed on this card including the affirmed BQ ..

4) please provide the name of the Federally Recognized Indian Reservation on which she resides and the name of the Community within said Reservation, in which her residence is located ..

5) please provide a list of references from the Citizens of the Federally Recognized Indian Nation, on the Reservation, in the Community, in which she lives .. stating that she is indeed their Spiritual Leader and is well Respected by them ..

6) please provide letters of endorsement, approval, and authorization by the Indian Leaders, Government etc. on the Reservation and in the Community, in which she lives .. stating that she is indeed a Recognized and Respected Spiritual Leader Sanctioned by them, given Authorization by them in all Spiritual matters, for and by the Community in which she lives ..

7) please provide a comprehensive list of any Indian Societies, Associations, Groups, Organizations, etc ..  that are Known, Respected and Sanctioned by Federally Recognized Nations, .. that she is an active and participating Member of .. please include documentation by said Organization of active participatory Membership ..

8) is she actively involved in the many Issues facing not only her own Peoples but all Indigenous Peoples .. if so, please provide a compressive list of all Issues, Activities etc .. that she is ardently involved in .. please include documentation of said Activities and Issues ..

9) is she actively involved in, and/or a member of, any International Organizations which Support and Aid the Indian Nations in their Issues .. if so, please provide a comprehensive list of all the International Organizations which  she is in contact with and working with .. please include documentation by said Organizations ..

10) please provide any other Concrete, Current and Valid Documentation from the Federally Recognized Nation, she claims affiliation with,  its Leaders, its Government, and its Citizens ..

thank you ..
tachia
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on June 01, 2007, 03:58:57 am
sorry  .. i am still learning how to use this particular forum ... that is a number 8 .. not a smiley face .. i did not catch that one ..
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 01, 2007, 04:28:11 am
Hi Moma Pocupine, I put my text in green and will address our infomation. Thankyou for taking the time to do this.

1. First let me address the first link.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=604.msg4766#msg4766

I read this carefully and there is nothing here that disproves her claims. He is a great guy by the way and I truly admire this mans courage and knowledge of uranium comtamination even though I respectfully disagree with him in this matter. See  www.silkwoodproject.com excuse the plug but think his is very important.  


2.   AN EMAIL FROM A WOMAN CALLED VIVIAN TO PAULA

"Paula, I was just looking and reading over some of this woman's account. It scared me to see pictures of a ceremony, you/we know as well not to record, take pictures of ceremonies, etc. Even to be discussing them. etc. This to me is like bragging. My father use to say: makis he wo'inapeke ki, tuwe heni hena hel ici page sni, nais ihan' han s'e iwogla ke sni . Cannupa ki he lila wakan, tuwe heni ikceya wayang ye sni, cante ojula wica yala kte heca. These are not to be discussed like this, this is something really fearsome, nobody talks about this type of (cannupa) sacredness like a common conversation, you cannot just go to see the pipe out of curiosity, your heart has to be in it, believe in it. The cannupa is a spirit and alive here in Pejito Wakpa.

Maybe, she is played by all of this, as my father use to say, beware, if you don't believe in it, don't go near it, if you play with it, it will play on you too. Maybe she needs to be educated on what we hold sacred, and these are, not bragging tools! Le miye ye. Vivian"


This does not prove anything either. If you disect this, this is just another opinion. I read this last year and much more. This does not disprove Looking Back Womans claims. What she states here are her beliefs about protocal. I am not disrespecting her beliefs in any way.

Vivian says  "These are not to be discussed like this, this is something really fearsome, nobody talks about this type of (cannupa) sacredness like a common conversation, you cannot just go to see the pipe out of curiosity, your heart has to be in it, believe in it. The cannupa is a spirit and alive here in Pejito Wakpa'."

Now read almost any book by Fools Crow, Black Elk, Lame Deer and others and they have all discussed this topic in length.


Read this book below very carefully written by a native if you have the time and please get back to me.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MARTHA.PAGES.9.htm


Its just about this canunpa wakan. The canunpa wakan,  Its history and how it is supposed to be used by Martha Bad Warrior. One of the keepers. Elk heads daughter. I think she has much more authority to give anyone else a lecture on its usage. She also had no problem being photographed with it. Like Old man Elk Head before her.  


now when you say  

"You expect documentation and on line links ? to do with articles so Ancient and Sacred ? Even mentioning this on line feels to me to be disrespectful . I understand that this is a cultural thing , and maybe you don't understand what is so obvious to people more familiar with some aspects of traditional protocols , but just talking about some things on line , is really disturbing."


This has nothing to do with your feelings about respect or your belief system, tradition or internet protocals.  This is about your allegations that Looking back woman is a Fraud.   You and many others have made some serious allegations. You have attempted to destroy her reputation. Also her fathers reputation. Her uncles reputation.  You can read what her father wrote about the sun dance

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.FEATURES.SUNDANCE.CalvinDupree.htm


Now you are saying you can not discuss this because of your cultural beliefs and internet protocols.  I can show you many many emails where Lakota natives have discussed this subject online and will do when the time is right. This also does not disprove her claims.

Then  you say  " I want to make an analogy , and i apologize before hand if this is crude and I offend anyone . I am just using this analogy because maybe cultural differences make it hard for Marlon to "get it" . So I am using a cultural taboo he is probably more familiar with .

Imagine if someone posted a picture of of your grandmother , or your daughter , on line - naked - and we expected you to "prove" that whoever did this was a "nasty person' "Whatever that means .


Moma Pocupione. What is this picture on the internet?  There are many more like this. Why do you think he allowed this photo to be taken. To be hidden under a rock. color]

 http://memory.loc.gov/award/iencurt/ct03/ct03029r.jpg


All I hear from you so far is protocols, culture, conjecture, analogies and opinions.  Nothing you have said proves Looking Back Woman is a fraud or that she has not Fools Crows ceremonial canunpa. That she has lied or mislead anyone.

That she has misused it, sold ceremony, pipes, sweats, seminars, books, CDs, dream catchers  or the rest of your criteria that makes someone a plastic medicine man. That she has abused her culture. She has strong opinions, yes and she has made some serious allegations as well. No disputing or denying this.

Now does that makes her a fraud because she has questioned some authority and ruffled some feathers? Is this what she is guilty of?  

  



Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: coffee_drinker on June 01, 2007, 04:29:24 am
tachia,
Thank you for your posting yesterday, it could have not been said any better than that.
If Harold One Feather is in need of supporters up around the rap city area, could you let me know so I can get the word out on what he needs. Thanks
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 01, 2007, 04:40:17 am
Hi Tachia,

Understood, nothing here will be posted on the site with out permission. I do not have any of this information but will forward it to her.

I know you can read about her familys history in this book. I know for certian the Smithsonian institute has documented and credited photos from this book of Martha Bad Warrior and the Looking Horse family. I know this for a fact.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MARTHA.PAGES.9.htm

This is her father here. Maybe someone can check him out. see if he truly was a sundance leader and if that is him with Fools Crow in the photos. This should be easy to find out.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.FEATURES.SUNDANCE.CalvinDupree.htm


Her Uncles name is Chauncy Dupree, she claims he was heyoka. This should also should be easy to find out.

Her grandfather had something to do with saving the last Buffalo. This should be easy to prove.



Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 01, 2007, 10:39:44 am
Marlon 

Just because a few Elders have occaisionally allowed a picture to be taken in a ceremony or of a ceremonial object, or an Elder has spoken about ceremonies and SOMEONE ELSE has made this information available to the public in an insensitive way ,  dosn't mean this is generally seen as an OK thing to do . There is sometimes exceptional circumstances, unusual personal beliefs , misunderstandings , or even exploitations that happen , but thinking it is OK to causualy talk about Sacred things or take pictures of ceremonies , is not the norm .

It seems to me, the many Native people who don't feel comfortable seeing pictures of ceremonies / ceremonial items or Sacred information  on the internet , have nothing to personally gain from voicing these concerns , except wanting to protect the culture . In fact these people often get attacked for doing this . In my mind , these people are a lot more credible than people using pictures and sensitive information to draw attention to themselves , or to make themselves seem important .

When I choose who to listen to, I choose the people who's behavior isn't going to offend Elders , or possibly damage the culture , and I also choose to listen to the people who aren't going to to personally gain - at the expense of the culture in general , from the position they are defending.

It can easily be proven that Vivien High Elk was expressing a very normal traditional concern , in what she said in that email , about not putting the Sacred on display , and not taking pictures of ceremonies .

So , why are you so quick to dismiss these concerns as irrelevent ?   It makes you sound like one of these people who expects to have access to "real ceremonial knowledge " but you don't expect to have to respect " real traditional protocols " .

I also notice you entirely side steped Taichia Hawk's questions from #4 through to #10 .

I hope you will answer those questions ... And in this thread .

The way you keep posting replys to one issue , in a thread on another isssue , is going to make it really hard for people to read in a months time , when they haven't got a clue what you are refering to , because it is in another thread .
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 01, 2007, 02:41:11 pm

Hi Moma Porcupine,

Ok, my text is in green

You said "Just because a few Elders have occasionally allowed a picture to be taken in a ceremony or of a ceremonial object, or an Elder has spoken about ceremonies and SOMEONE ELSE has made this information available to the public in an insensitive way , dosn't mean this is generally seen as an OK thing to do "


From what I have gathered these medicine people knew exactly what they were doing when they gave  interviews, participated in writing books and allowed themselves to be photograhed for picitures in these books. That photo is of Old Man Elk with the sacred bundle. The other photos are of Martha Bad Warrior with the Canunpa wakan. See photo here.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/Martha%20Bad%20Warrior%203rd%20&%20last%20bloodline%20Keeper.jpg


Now this is obvious this was done in a very respectful manor. There was no exploitation, they had no intention other than conveying information about their culture for historical and educational reasons.  

Yes I understand this is a very sensitive matter, but so is making accusations and calling someone a fraud on the internet for the entire world to see, based on un substantiated evidence, hearsay, speculation and personal opinions.

I am not questioning Vivian High Elks point of view or her beliefs, or her legitimacy, or credibility. This is also not about my opinions or my views. This is about about www.Newageforum.org  slandering people and making false accusations.

By the way I forwarded Tachias email to Looking Back Woman and will provide the information if she chooses to. I do not have this and quite frankly do not see what this has to do with anything. I do not think anyone is questioning whether she is Lakota or that she is Calvin Duprees daughter?  I do not know her blood quantum or do not know the results of her DNA test if that's what you are looking for. Why don't you ask her your self?

Now you say " So , why are you so quick to dismiss these concerns as irrelevant ? It makes you sound like one of these people who expects to have access to "real ceremonial knowledge " but you don't expect to have to respect " real traditional protocols "

Moma porcupine. Don't waste your time. I am no expert in Lakota culture or have never claimed to be. This is not about me, this is about you and people on this fnewagefraud forum providing evidence, not only to me but to many people who now want to now see your proof that Looking Back Woman is a fraud. Its very simple. Looking Back Woman has made some claims. Now you and anyone else who has made what appears to be libelous and slanderous comments have to disprove her claims. If you cannot do this,
Just in case you do not know, slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community.

So where is your evidence that Looking Back Woman is a fraud. So far all you have provided me with is opinions about protocol, personal feelings and discussing the canunpa on the internet. That she may have offended some elders feelings with posting photographs of holding a canunpa her father gave her. Also for posting photographic evidence that her father was given this canunpa at a Sundance by Fools Crow in 1971.

A. These photos were posted by Looking Back Woman as photographic evidence and documentation about her family and her story. They were not posted to sell.  www.lookingbackwoman.com  See for yourself.

B. She has said she has not asked anyone to send her money based on these pictures or her canunpa. If you can prove she has set up a foundation based on this and is canvassing money. Show me the canceled checks and the evidence.

C. She has not sold Sundance ceremony, Inipi or anything else. If you can prove she has, show me the canceled checks and evidence. 


So far you have shown me is one email. I have that same email from last year and more from this same woman Vivian High Elk and many others. 

This email does not prove she is a fraud.

Now again for the third time, where is your evidence that Looking Back Woman is a fraud?

Just in case you are not aware of this book about Looking Back Woman's family and the history and the keepers of the canunpa wakan. Read this. You will see photos that are also documented in the Smithsonian institute with field notes by a man named Demalle. Check it out online. if you need more info on this please let me know.

Quest for the pipe - as viewed from Wounded Knee by Wilbur Riegert ,Chippewa


http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MARTHA.PAGES.9.htm






Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 01, 2007, 04:44:20 pm
Quote
Now you and anyone else who has made what appears to be libelous and slanderous comments have to disprove her claims. If you cannot do this, Just in case you do not know, slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community.

Marlon
Are you saying LBW , who is claiming to be a very important Spiritual person , is going to sue me , or the other people in NAFPS , for trying to educate people on what is generally considered to be disrespectful or outright exploitation of traditional ways and ceremonies ?

At least it is clear what values and priorities are being promoted .

I am not Lakota and I am not in contact with people in the Lakota community , but there are people posting here who are.

Quote
By the way I forwarded Tachias email to Looking Back Woman and will provide the information if she chooses to. I do not have this and quite frankly do not see what this has to do with anything.

Taichia Hawks questions about what recognized Lakota Spiritual leaders within the Lakota community ,  recognize LBW's claims , and what Native organizations she serves,  have everything to do with verifying the legitimacy of her claims .  Not everybody born in Rome has the right to declare themselves the Pope .

As for "me' ,  it is not my business to comment on which Pipe LBW has , or how it came to her , and I have never done so . These are very sensitive internal matters . Which is part of my point .

If LBW is telling the truth , this would be an internal matter of grave importance to the Lakota community and such close to the heart matters do not belong all over the internet . That she has put it there , looks much more like grandstanding for a non native audience than any real concern for the wellbeing of the Lakota community .

My initial comments in the thread on the Thomas Lightening Bolt interview , were intended only as a general comment on people publishing information about Sacred things , and it is you who keeps trying to make this exclusively about LBW .

As it was LBW who put these sensitve issues in the public arena for consideration , neither you or LBW , has a right to complain or play the victim , because it is being publicly considered . Get real . 

If what you say really represents LBW's point of view , it sounds like this woman wants to go to a non native court to try and get the non native court to agree she is an is an important Lakota Spiritual leader . Such a desicion should be made by recognized lakota Elders within the Lakota community , not by non Lakota people on line,  or in a non native court .

I'd laugh out loud except I feel nauseated ...

I apologise to the Lakota people for having posted so much on this . It is an internal matter and really isn't any of my business. Which has been the point I have been trying to make all along .
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: frederica on June 01, 2007, 05:37:46 pm
I've been watching this, and I agree with Moma Porcupine this is a internal Lakota affair. And they should be allowed to settle this. I can recall when a non-NDN snatched a Hopi ceremonial mask from a Kiva and the Tribe had to go to court to retrieve this. Some of the Religious leaders had to testify in a non-Tribal court and were most unhappy as they had to reveal certain things that had never been revealed before. I don't know what anyone's motives are in this, but I see nothing good coming of it. frederica
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 01, 2007, 05:52:09 pm
Hi  Moma Porcupine. Frederke, Tachia Since you have raised Vivian High Elk, and have floated a round a piece of her email to discredit Looking Back Woman repeatdly, discussed internet protocols, culture and the rest, maybe you should you see some more.

[Al's note: The emails were already in another thread. Marlon was going way off topic yet again. This thread is about his magazine, period. Sorry not telling him earlier to quit rambling and trying to dominate every last thread.]
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 01, 2007, 06:26:08 pm
Hi Moma Porcupine,

IYou have still not provided me with any evidence to substantiate your claims. I have just provided you with another one of Vivian's emails since it looks like this is all you have to validate your claims. Looking Back Woman asked me to do this for her since she is having problems with accessing her password and entry to newgageforum

Looking Back Woman will provide Tachia with her registration any moment now.

PS. I have asked Barnaby  3 times to take my personal info off your site. Please do me a favor and ask AL Carroll or someone to take it off immediatly. 

[Al's note: Once again, his rambling off topic was deleted.]
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 01, 2007, 06:48:32 pm
Hi Moma Porcupine,

Here is more evidence on the Martha Bad Warriors cununpa from the Simthsonian institute that Looing Back Woman has asked me to post.

[Al's note: Yet again off topic, rambling, and posted elsewhere. Not only that, posting on behalf of someone is a typical exploiter's habit.]

Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on June 01, 2007, 08:47:26 pm
tachia,
Thank you for your posting yesterday, it could have not been said any better than that.
If Harold One Feather is in need of supporters up around the rap city area, could you let me know so I can get the word out on what he needs. Thanks


coffee drinker ..
wado equa ..
i have not received any updates on the situation with Harold .. i will keep you posted as i receive new info . thank you so much for your offer! .. i will indeed let you know as news comes to me on it .. ..
tachia
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on June 01, 2007, 08:48:13 pm
john ..
you do realize that you are doing nothing more than  regurgitating the same stuff, over and over .. to what point? .. none of the real issues are even being addressed .. your sidestepping everything valid with just more “opinion??? etc .. ..

the issue is NOT about a pipe ..
the issue is NOT about this woman’s father nor her family ..

and yet you keep going on and on about the pipe and her father etc .. as does she .. her entire site is dedicated to “proving??? that she is in possession of a pipe as well as “proving??? that she is calvin dupree’s daughter .. .. and yet none of this information even matters .. i for one could care less if she has a pipe and is calvin’s daughter .. good for her .. i am not questioning either of these things, nor is anyone else that i can see .. so .. why do you keep going on and on about these two things? .. and why does she? .. .. her entire web site is dedicated to these two things .. been  there, read it all, don’t care ..

as has already been stated .. whether or not she is calvin’s daughter and possesses his pipe is none of our concern .. that would be an internal matter for the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota etc Nations .. and anyone outside those Nations would be foolish indeed to interfere in that .. .. no one is going to be able to prove “who and what they are??? by spouting genealogy and claiming to be in possession of something that belonged to their father .. .. shrug .. most people have a genealogy and most people have things that were given to them by their parents .. no one really cares about these things .. these things do not make a person “who and what??? they are .. suzanne dupree cares about them and has made these two things paramount in her quest .. if these two things are even debatable, they are not going to be debated by me .. i will state again that these two things are an issue for the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota etc Nations .. .. ..

my concerns about suzanne’s claims lie in another direction completely .. now if you would like to discuss those concerns .. i will continue to participate in this thread .. if you are going to insist on simply regurgitating the same old stuff about the woman’s pipe and her genealogy .. and threatening all of us  .. then i have nothing more to say ..

this is a forum to which people come to discuss concerns about people who are causing all Indigenous peoples harm .. no one here claims to be an authority on anyone or anything .. we are all simply seeking information from each other .. and for you to come here threatening people with a slander or libel lawsuit is reprehensible and quite honestly, in my opinion, a bully tactic .. shrug .. i for one, am no one special, just an old woman with concerns and opinions .. and there are laws that protect my right to speak of my concerns and opinions with others, especially in a public forum .. now we can play power games, or we can have a dialogue .. your choice .. ..   

if you choose to converse further on this, choose to address the real issues on this topic that concern us .. your going to have to drop the BS and threats and realize that it is just a discussion, a dialogue of concerns and opinions .. if you wish to continue this conversation in an appropriate vein it would also behoove you to re-read my posting to you, which was merely a reversal of your posting to me .. (asking for incontrovertible evidence) .. as well as re-reading the posts of others .. .. there is a lot being said which you obviously do not understand .. ..

it has become very apparent to me that you have come here with a very specific agenda in mind .. i am refusing to participate in such an agenda  .. i am not qualified to do so .. and i do not really expect you to wish to continue the dialogue in the spirit of a friendly debate without the power trips and threats of legal ramifications .. i will not speak openly of my concerns and opinions with a threat hanging over every word i utter .. ..  .. shrug ..  .. ..

in the spirit of my ancestors ..
tachia
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on June 01, 2007, 09:19:45 pm
john ..
i have a request ..
can we please keep this discussion in this one thread and not all over  the board .. .. i have only a very slow dial up connection to the internet .. i am simply not able to bounce around from thread to thread  in order to see your posts to me and others on this .. ..

i was able to read the other threads  .. and i did notice that your friend, and mine, Harold One Feather has stated that his opinion of Dupree is that she is a fraud .. shrug ..
after reading the other threads .. i am sure that you simply do not. nor can you even conceive of, what the word “fraud??? articulates for  us .. you are viewing this issue, understandably,  from a white perspective of what is ndn .. while we are viewing it from the ndn perspective of what is ndn .. .. in my many years of dialogue with non-ndn’s this has quite often proved to be problematic in attempting to understand one another .. we (ndn’s) have the advantage of being educated in the ways of whites (through forced assimilation practices) and thereby know how to ‘switch’ to that mode of thinking as a basis for conversing with whites .. you do not have the same advantage .. you were not educated in the ways of ndn’s and therefore have no understanding of the complexities of our ways and how we converse .. .. we ‘bend’ to attempt to understand whites .. and yet whites have a very difficult, if not impossible, time ‘bending’ to attempt to understand us .. one first has to take the time to learn how very different we view the world .. are you willing to take the time to learn in order to continue this dialogue? .. so far as i have seen, you are not even making an attempt .. you simply belittle everything we say as if you alone were the authority .. you are speaking to us from a position of white privilege and assumed superiority .. and in doing so this dialogue will go absolutely nowhere .. again, the choice is yours .. ..
sincerely
tachia
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 02:00:46 am

So what does this word fraud mean to you and why does it mean anything other than Dr Als meaning of "fraud" listed on www.newage.org forum about us page?

ABOUT US


What We Do & How We Differ From Nuage Frauds


Now this is the word that has been applied to Looking Back Woman over and over again. This is the context it was applied in. Newage fraud,org  web site. Now read again how your site defines fraud.

Are you saying that when you called her a fraud. you did not mean any of the above. You are not heyoka by the way are you?  Meaning that when you call some one a fraud you really mean the exact opposite. meaning sincere, honest, trustworthy, authentic?

[Al's note: Unnecessary duplicate material removed. Just the links are fine, thanks. We generally only reproduce all the material from a link when it's a fraud site that might remove the material to hide evidence when they've been caught doing wrong.]















Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 03:34:03 am
Hi Tachia,

This is what you just said.

"if you choose to converse further on this, choose to address the real issues on this topic that concern us .. your going to have to drop the BS and threats and realize that it is just a discussion, a dialogue of concerns and opinions .. if you wish to continue this conversation in an appropriate vein it would also behoove you to re-read my posting to you, which was merely a reversal of your posting to me .. (asking for incontrovertible evidence) .. as well as re-reading the posts of others .. .. there is a lot being said which you obviously do not understand"

What are the real issues here?

[More off topic rambling deleted.]

So why don't you enlighten me on what I don't understand and on what is being said. What have I missed out on?

That's interesting. What BS. Are you now questioning my honesty?  What do you mean by BS?

What threats? You mean the slander word. Im sure you must know the meaning of this word by now. Who threatened suing anyone. Why do you think I would waste my time and money on something as silly as that. Or even play those childish games.

[Al's note: See earlier. Marlon threatened lawsuits repeatedly, as has Dupree.]

[More off topic rambling deleted.]


Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 04:19:51 am
Hi Al,

You deleted a very important point there.

[Al's note: Actually I deleted a rmabling off topic point which Marlon has said repeatedly on several threads. It's no my fault if he's slow to cathc on.]

Tachia raised the issue of what fraud means to her and how I have a misunderstanding of the word in her culture. Now she works for new age forum.

[Actually, no she doesn't. No one "works for" us. No one makes a penny. We're all volunteers. Many of us take money out of our own pocket for this cause we believe in deeply.]

You have spelled out what this means on your "who we are page".  Which is exactly the same meaning that I apply to this word. Now why would Tachia  all of a sudden have another understanding of this word?

Why would she ask me to bend backwards to understand what fraud means to her?  As if she meant something else by calling Looking Back Woman a plastic "sham on" yesterday. I don't think there are many other ways to see this, or I don't think this is a question of semantics, or deep philosophical truths.

That has got to be the most [childish insult] anyone has ever presented to me yet on your forum. As far as [childish insults] goes .That's [childish insult].

The tactic of having your friends jump in feeds and say they agree with you is not make it truth.

[Al's note: It's no "tactic." No one is receiving any orders. And Tachia is actually fairly new here.]

In fact its transparant is very telling about certain people on your forum. I could easily send out a 1,000 person group email tonight and ask all my friends around the world to join in. What would that prove.

Her last email looked to me like pure evasiveness and if she was just trying to change the subject and turn this into a "you dont understand my culture routine"  I dont need to understand the navaho culture to know thie meaning of fraud. I will ask about this.

[More rambling deleted, this time so condescending it borders on being racist, "Let me school those dumb Indians."]

I do not think deleting that makes any sense at all?

[When you ramble, waste people's time, and come in as a white man feeling obviosly superior to the Dumb Indians trying to dominate a Native forum, yes it makes perfect sense. Stay on topic and learn to be more respectful and listen more than talk.]
 
The issue here is fraud, decption. misrepresentation etc ?  and whether this has been commited by Looking Back Woman .

Whether it has been addressed a million times on other feeds about other people is irrelevant. It has never been addressed in reference to Looking Back Woman and your websites claims by me.

[It's not our fault if you decide not to read what's right in front of you, or call what everyone else says "gossip" and decide this woman is beyond criticism.]




Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 03:00:59 pm

Hi Tachia,

I still did not get a chance to address much of what you have said and in no way avoiding any of you comments or questions . In fact I just saved it all onto my hard drive. Its easier for me to go through this one piece at a time. I would like to start at the beginning  of why you found my site disturbing. I will high light my text in green.

You said " i spend very long hours researching a person as thoroughly as i can before forming an opinion of them .. this whole group does this .. i do not go around “trashing??? people based on “conjecture, intuition, speculation, hearsay, gossip and third party information??? .. i do not 'trash' people period .. i will, and do, form an educated opinion and speak to others about the person/s in question .. as well as attempting to warn others of the persons motives if they are nefarious ..
you are giving people, like dupree, maximum exposure .. you do not question the credibility of these frauds and therefore your readers do not question it either .. your articles/interviews come across to the reader as FACT .. come across to the reader as if these frauds truly were what they all claim to be .. this is misleading to say the very least .. and in my opinion it IS promotion of the frauds .. there is not a hint of any of the frauds being other than that which they claim to be .. you are portraying the frauds solely as they claim to be without question of their validity, credentials or their standing in the ndn nations/communities, without any reference to the opinions of what the ndn peoples themselves think of these individuals .. .. your promoting them to the 'millions' of readers you have, thus garnering for them many more 'followers' .. which is exactly what all charlatans want .. are your articles/interviews of these frauds, like dupree, based on “fact, logic, reason or truth??? or based solely on what the frauds themselves are telling you is fact, logic, reason and truth? .. where is the objective reporting? .. where is the other side of the coin? .. where is the ndn perspective on these frauds?



As far as Looking Back Woman is concerned, she contacted me and left a link to her site.  I then asked her for an interview when I saw photos of her with John Fire Lame Deer and Black Elk and Fools Crow . I understand you are not Lakota, so you may not know who some of these people are. She also told and showed me much more off the record. Photos, emails, letters, that only a few others have access to. This was enough evidence for me to see that she is worth interviewing and asking further questions. Then others also validated her claims with more emails.
There are many other issues you may not be aware of since you are not Lakota which I will not go into on your forum.
I did question her on the reasons behind all her allegations. The pipe, how she came by this, how she uses it. 
Maybe you should read it again and get back to me on what exact parts concern you.  Other wise your comments like "fraud" are too vague and slanderous.   That's like calling someone a rapist. Anyone can do that.  What I am saying is lets do a metaphorical "rape test"  Lets forensically examine the evidence or lack of it that you have presented to substantiate your claims. so far you have shown me 1 email and a feed in which Carter Camp expresses his opinions. I read of about him by the way in Steve Hendricks book of the murder of Ana Mae.
 I think this need to be dissected as if you were searching for a microbe under microscope. Please see here. http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.FEATURES.%20LBW.PART.1.htm
She then provided me with photographic documents about her father, her canunpa, her birth certificate, her registration in South Dakota and much much more.  I included some of these photos in the interview .. also some of the newspaper clippings.
Now what exactly is it about what she has said you take issue. with, This sound more personal to me than anything else. Are you related to any of the people they has mentioned. Or are any of the people she has mentioned ar linked to people on the new age forum Like Al Carol in nay way. if so, isn't that a conflict of interest? 

SPIRITS FOR SALE

presenting
Chief Arvol Looking Horse, Al Carroll, Vic Camp, Andrew Thomas, Gayle Ross
Sales and info:  levande.bilder@swipnet.se   tel. + 46 31 410110


You see, I can say you making a movie about exploitation about native causes being exploited and then selling this film or a book about this can also be interpreted as doing the exact same thing in another way. Now your argument is but I need to make a living, im just doing this to raise awareness, im not in this for the money and so on and so on. Why don't you tell that to the people that are living in poverty on in Pine Ridge. I have asked these people that question about people who makes films about them .They so far have all told me they never get to see any of the profits or any of the money. They don't even get paid to do the interviews in most cases.

the fact is Al Carroll is selling books, making films and giving seminars in Europe on his own people being exploited by what he refers to as "frauds and plastic shamans" and then questions the motivations of others like Thomas mails or others who write books about his own people could easily be perceived as hypocritical. You can not have one standard for your self and another for everyone else.  



Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 04:27:28 pm



Hi Tachia,

REBUTTEL

next part of your first email.

This may take a few days to a week . I get a deluge of emails on have to daily basis. Just want you to understand this takes time.


You said,   The interview with Looking Back Woman is about her claims about the Canupa her father Calvin Dupree gave her. There is no doubt this is Fools Crows ceremonial Sundance Canunpa. No one disputes this. Even the people you cited. I know since I as privy to this feed you posted and much much more for many months.
i am sorry, but for you to state: “There is no doubt this is Fools Crows ceremonial Sundance Canunpa.??? is simply erroneous .. Fools Crow gave many pipes to many people .. perhaps there is little doubt that this is one of those pipes, one given to dupree’s father by Fools Crow .. yet is it THE Sacred Canupa, is it Fool Crows Personal ceremonial Canupa? .. no! .. .. it is a pipe, perhaps sacred, perhaps not, i would think that would depend on how it is now being used .. my personal opinion of how dupree is ‘attempting’ to use this pipe, is that she is profaning the sacred .. ..

Now can you please provide me the since of the names of who was given what here and when and why my comments were "simply erroneous"  That what she has was not fools crow canupa. Why don't you ask Vivian High Elk who's cannupa it was?
Now for your personal opinion of "what dupree is attempting to use this pipe is that she is profaning the sacred"
Why don't you tell us all exactly why you think this is and why exactly you mean by this?
Your who we are page says this is who you are.
What We Do & How We Differ From Nuage Frauds

[Duplicate material removed. Just a link is fine.]

Are you claming that looking  back woman has  done any of these things?  If so, once again why don't you prove how so to your audience? 

I have a question for you. Why is it that today is Saturday and this dialogue began last Tuesday and you still have not answered a very simple question?

Show me she has sold ceremonies, workshops, seminars, healings, readings, "asteroid avoidance courses" (yes, some frauds actually do), or anything else like that.

I will go on to the next question and will do it in segments if you dont mind. Maybe Al /Educated Indian would be so kind to insert your comments for teh record. Or I can do and post it back.



[Note: Members are responsible for their own comments.]

Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 04:44:10 pm
Ok, next part.

I said " She answered most of my questions. I think her position is crystal clear. My intention was to find out exactly what this is, who she is and what this issue is about. This is impossible to know from just an interview. I still don't know the answers and much of this is still surrounded in mystery"

You said

i would agree that she has made her position “crystal clear??? .. it is exceedingly clear to myself as well as a great many others that she intends to set herself up as the 'new leading plastic-shame-on' for the lost wonder bread children .. with no thought to the ndn peoples themselves whatsoever

Are you [childish insult] by the way. You seem to be [childish insult]. Now why do you think "she is intends to set her self up as a new age plastic shame-on for the lost wonder bread children "

Does wonder bread mean Caucasian "white" people. Does that mean you are [childish insult] Meaning [childish insult] is good and wonder bread and white mean something less wholesome.
Now on your who we are page it says.

If anything we are an ANTI-hate group...

[Note: It's not Tachia's page. No idea why Marlon sees a vast conspiracy.]

If referring to Caucasian as "lost wonder bread children" is not prejudicial to be polite, then why don't you enlighten me on what this  phrase means to you?

Are you also inferring she has "lost wonder bread" followers?

[Dupree actually does, at least over in Europe. And I have no idea why Marlon imagines wonder bread to refer to race instead a culture.]

Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 05:03:25 pm

NEXT.

I said "As far as Rolling Thunder is concerned I have read all the negative commentary about him. I never net him but know others that knew him very well and lived with him.
I still find him interesting for many reasons.  That's why I posted the old interview from the 70s.


You said
so all of the “negative commentary about him??? is "negated by “third party information??? ..?? .. do you not think that those who were so obviously his followers, “knew him and lived with him??? would have other than negative opinions of him? .. or perhaps not, you don’t exactly say what these 'others??? who knew him, think of him .. i am merely left to assume that they spoke highly enough of him to negate all the negative you read and you still “find him interesting enough??? to promote him in your magazine ..again, where is the objectivity, the other side? .. 

I gave this more thought and deleted his post. Not worth the argument  at this point and will put this in the "under investigation" category on my list.

I said : As far as plastic medicine men and shamans and wanna be new medicine men or new age white guys doing sweat lodges, what else is new. Freud runs in every culture. The world is riddled with cults and all this nonsense and con artists.

you said
the fact that this sort of thing exists, makes it alright??? .. this sort of thing is acceptable? .. we should all just accept this and do nothing to try to stop it? .. .. “what else is new??? .. ?? .. i find that attitude extremely flippant, as if you simply do not care .. which might explain why you promote these 'plastic shame-ons' and do absolutely nothing to even attempt to give another view of them ..

Rebuttell.

I was not promoting him, just posting an interview because I liked what he said about finding the herbs he would use in his healing methods. As far as my attitude and  how it appears to you and how much I care is not important.  This is a question of perception and a futile argument.

I have asked you to do an interview about this. I have also asked Al  Carroll .  I will give you the same space, energy and time. I can also cut and past this entire discussion and add photos to it, unedited if you like. Maybe just do a quick spell check. Would that suffice?  the only thing I would need from you is a disclaimer in terms of anyone suing for slander or defamation of character.  You  have named a lot of people here.





Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 05:28:12 pm
I said "From what I have been told by various medicine people and elders, Lakota, Cree, Navajo, Apache, Cherekee, all canupa are sacred. I don't think that is the question"


You said " indeed it is my understanding as well that all Canupa are Sacred when they are used in a sacred manner .. i am not of the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota etc (sioux) peoples, so it is not my place to speak of these things .. yet i will say that the Sacred Canupa is of the Lakota, etc. peoples .. and i can tell you for a fact that the Canupa is NOT Cree, Dine’ (navajo), Apache, nor Tsalagi (cherokee) .. individuals of these nations/tribes/bands might now possess a Canupa, yet it is not of their peoples .. we all had 'pipes', only the Lakota etc. had the Sacred Canupa .. your correct, all Canupas are sacred when used in a sacred manner, and whether or not the woman is in possession of her fathers Canupa, is not the question, yet there are many other questions that center around her possession and usage of her fathers Canupa .. ..

I ask

What are the questions.  as far as the canunpa is concerned read this interview about it from the president of pipe makers and what he says about it.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.BudJOHNSTON.htm
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 07:25:11 pm
Hi said
Anyone who claims they are enlightened in my book they are not. Anyone who calls them selves holy they are not. As far as being sacred, we all are. Everything is. At a subatomic level feces and a diamond is the same thing. That makes you or I or anyone else no better than feces on that level including all these so called holy people.

You said"  perhaps you hold this opinion, because you have not ever met a truly 'enlightened' person'

I said. 
Yes you are absolutely right. 

Go to a library or try and get to a friends house and see the UG khrishnamurti  Videos  he is not new age by the age, India has been around a long time.

You said.
.. .. my opinion of the frauds you promote, by giving them center stage in your magazine, would most definitely be “feces??? . ..

So who are you calling feces? 

Remember I was talking about sub atomic particles and making the comparison with a diamond. meaning we are all the same on that level and on every other level in my opinion.  I also said as far as being sacred, we all are.

Now you have taken this word and applied it to people I have interviewed. im sure people would like to know exactly who you are calling feces and what is your criteria for doing so?

Just in case this is another question of semantics or Navajo understanding of the word feces.

[More condescending material removed.]

Is your understanding of this word feces any other than excrement, fouls smelling stool , if so please explain why.

I am trying to bend over backwards to understand your use of language like you requested earlier when you said fraud to an ndn is not the same as to a white person.
What about feces. is an ndns feces any different than a lost wonderbreads feces?

[More condescending...]

That's just an example by the way. So what do you mean by feces?

[This is getting unintentionally comical.]
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Freija on June 02, 2007, 07:29:03 pm

SPIRITS FOR SALE

presenting
Chief Arvol Looking Horse, Al Carroll, Vic Camp, Andrew Thomas, Gayle Ross
Sales and info:  levande.bilder@swipnet.se   tel. + 46 31 410110


You see, I can say you making a movie about exploitation about native causes being exploited and then selling this film or a book about this can also be interpreted as doing the exact same thing in another way.

Marlon, hi, pleased to meet you. I am one of the producers of the film "Spirits for Sale".
I understand your concern since we, non-Natives, have used and abused American Indians for our own gain for centuries! The people in the film contributed for free. None of them would ever ask for anything in return - I am honoured to say that they are friends of mine, they know why I am making this film, they are concerned about the ongoing exploitation. It is all about trust...

Why don't you tell that to the people that are living in poverty on in Pine Ridge. I have asked these people that question about people who makes films about them .They so far have all told me they never get to see any of the profits or any of the money. They don't even get paid to do the interviews in most cases.

I am certainly aware of the above and it is tragic. The budget for the film is 100.000 dollars. We have no fundings, noone in Europe wanted to sponsor us. I used my lifesavings and I might loose it all. In which case it has still been worth it! On the other hand, I could break even and I could even make a profit. This profit will go back to, above all, the Lakota people who were so generous and helpful when we visited SD.  They gave us a priceless gift when they shared. There is no way I would betray their trust.

So the same way as Mr. Carroll gave most of his money from the European tour to Native causes, and the same way he and another 10 Native writers contributed for free to the bookproject - which raised 8000 dollars to Albuquerque Indian Center - the same way it is my deepest hope that this film will bring money to Native people on Pine Ridge and other places. It might take some years before we break even, though. IF we do.

Should you have any more queries regarding the film, I´d be pleased to provide you with information.

Let me quote one of the lovely Indian ladies in the film, Gayle Ross:
"They (non-Natives) cannot just take and take and take and take....some day they have to learn to give back. And one way of giving back is to acknowledge the fact that everything is not there for them to take."
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 08:07:39 pm


 You said

" I simply cannot condone, nor approve of, any publication that promotes frauds, no matter how good it may be in other content .. .. it simply seems 'two faced' to me .. on the one hand you support and promote 'plastic shame-ons' who dupe innocent people and cause great harm to all ndn peoples .. and on the other hand you support and promote several ndn environmental issues .. a contradiction which i cannot condone .. “with friends like you, who needs enemies??? .. shrug .. any good that you do is negated with the harm that you perpetuate in your support and promotion of the frauds .. ..


I said. " I have never asked you to condone or support, approval, validate, or accept my magazine. I have also not asked you to be my friend or need you as a friend or my enemy. to me it makes no defense. are you under some kind of impression that i am looking fron support from native peoples. Becus ew have mutual friends like  Harold does automatically mean you become my best bubby.

you  said.  perhaps you simply do not know that this too, is an ndn issue of grave importance with devastating consequences? .. the proliferation of 'plastic shame-ons' IS a very crucial issue! ..

What I think is much more devastating than a wana be medicine white man dressed up as Pocahontas is  poverty, see here.

http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.Q&A.BRENDA%20APLIN.htm

the violation of broken treaties,

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.DefendersVideo.htm

the environment,
www.silkwwoodproject.com

 human rights abuse,
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.GarvardGoodPlume.Interview.htm

alcoholism  drug abuse
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.MelanieMcbee.htm

and  rape of Indian woman.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.HUMAN-RIGHTS.Rape.htm

prejudiem, hatred. and so on.

You said. "perhaps you simply do not realize that this Issue is nothing less than Genocide for all indigenous peoples .. why bother to help the Paha Sapa groups save their lands and save lives,  when you advocate their genocide by supporting these frauds? ..

Being a plastic shaman in any strecth of the imagination is genocide. this is genocide.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.NewWorldHolocaust.htm

Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 08:39:46 pm
Hi Freija,

Very nice to meet you too. Thats great news.  Congratualtions on your film and look forward to seeing it.

That is highly commendable of you for doing such a thing. Im also glad to hear about the book and where the money has gone. Also good to know Al Carroll gave most of his money from his European tour to native causes and also contributed to the book.

You are a great example in my opinion with what this world needs. Do you know Kevin Annett by the way.  He also made a great film called "unrepentant."  its now on google. Worth seeing.

Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 08:59:58 pm
Tachia,
Noticed links were broken.

broken treaties.
http://www.defendblackhills.org/

environment.
www.silkwoodproject.com

Now do you mean that just because i interviewed a couple of people who don't personally  like negates al the positive attention I have brought around world to these issues . I thought [childish insult]. You sound like [childish insult].

Are you [childish insult]
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on June 02, 2007, 09:49:56 pm
Do you know Kevin Annett by the way.  He also made a great film called "unrepentant."

Please stop promoting Kevin Annett. It's extremely ironic that he called his film "Unrepentant", since he's still leeching off the pain of residential school survivors after abusing their trust to such an extent that one group, - Circle of Justice - publicly dissociated themselves from him eight years ago. It's hard to imagine a more despicable occupation.

That you appear not to know this speaks volumes about your credulity. Don't tell me you're not promoting him: as with the other frauds you promote, you either have not bothered to do any research or are blithely unconcerned about those who contradict what you want to hear. After reading these pages, perhaps you'll have some idea why I found the PR photo of Annett on your site so revolting.

http://sisis.nativeweb.org/resschool/main.html

http://sisis.nativeweb.org/resschool/sep2898coj.html
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 02, 2007, 11:18:57 pm
Hi Barnaby,

 I have to ask you this on the record.  Are you in the FBI?

[ROFL! Anyone whose met Barnaby or seen a photo of him would find this pretty funny. He's a longhaired Englishman and animal rights activist with back problems, all four of which would keep him out of the FBI.] 

Anyway, heres an update on whats going on.

Kevin Annett / Eagle Strong Voice
Secretary, The Truth Commission into Genocide in Canada
hiddenfromhistory@yahoo.ca
pager: 1-888-265-1007
(h) 250-753-3345
www.hiddenfromhistory.org

[I deleted yet again more off topic material, but left up the link for anone interested.]
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on June 03, 2007, 01:40:21 am
john .. ..

to clarify quite a few of your misconceptions concerning me ..

1) as i have already stated: i am no one special .. i am just an old woman with opinions and concerns .. nothing more .. i am entitled to my opinions and concerns and  i have a right to speak openly about them  ..

2) i am not, nor do i claim to be, an expert nor an authority on anything or anyone .. in fact i very clearly state that i am just an old woman and nothing more ..

3) this forum is: “newage fraud.org??? .. not “newage.org??? or “newage forum??? as you repeatedly insist on referring to it .. (that is why the link “newage.org???, as you have posted it, will not work, that is not a valid link to anything)

4).. i do not “work??? for this forum in any way, shape, or form ..also this is not “my??? forum .. i am not even a long time member, i am a relatively new member of this forum

5) to my knowledge this is just a forum, one of several forums and groups on the internet that i am a member of .. to my knowledge this is nothing more than a place to come and talk with others who have similar opinions and concerns ..

6) i do not know “Dr. Al???, i have never met him, never had a conversation with him, nor do i “work??? for him .. i am not associated with him in any form other than  being a member of this forum ..

7) i am not Lakota/Dakota/Nakota etc .. therefore i am not Heyoka either .. (and that remark was petty and snide)

8} this, and all other “posts??? of mine in this forum, are just that .. posts in a forum .. they are not emails to you .. they are merely posts expressing my opinions and concerns on an open public forum .. a post in a public forum cannot be considered an email ..

9) you are confusing me with someone else in this forum .. i have not shown you: “1 email and a feed in which Carter Camp expresses his opinions??? .. i have not directed you to any web sites, emails, feeds, etc ..  i have not “shown??? you anything .. i have merely expressed  my own personal opinions based on my own personal research of this subject .. and again my public posts in this forum are not “emails??? to you and cannot be considered as such ..

10) i never even intimated that my definition of the word “fraud??? is something different than the accepted dictionary definition .. i merely intimated that your far too hung up on the semantics of the word to see the complexities within it ..

11) “having your friends jump in feeds and say they agree??? .. this is petty and irrelevant .. you have brought people into other threads to express their views .. a few members of this forum have entered into this conversation to express their views .. we are all adults, and i do not think any of us are playing a playground game of ‘having our friends come back us up??? .. do you seriously believe this to be the case? .. if so then you are also guilty of such behavior .. shrug .. personally, i do not subscribe to such childish behavior .. i will only comment and/or join a conversation, if i wish to .. definitely not to ‘back up a anyone else’ ..

12) i am not “linked??? in any way whatsoever to any of dupree’s detractors, supporters, nor to anyone here in this forum .. my opinions and concerns about Dupree and others like her are my own, they are not dependent nor attached to any ‘agenda’ .. therefore, my opinions cannot be construed as a “conflict of interest??? ..

13) as i am not affiliated in any way whatsoever with al carrol, arvol looking horse, or any of the other people you mention as being a part of “spirits for sale??? .. and indeed have no knowledge of this .. how can i possibly be “making a movie about exploitation .. .. “
you continually and consistently attribute things specifically to me which have absolutely nothing to do with me  .. i would have thought that a “reporter??? would be much more careful with what he presents as “fact??? .. .. by your own  definition “slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community.??? .. with this definition and all the things you are erroneously attributing to me .. should i interpret these erroneous statements that you are making  about me as being slanderous? ..

14) “Your who we are page says this is who you are. What We Do & How We Differ From Nuage Frauds???  .. again, this is not my forum, i am not employed by this forum, etc .. the “who we are page??? is not mine, i did not write it, etc .. that page does say who i am .. you have repeated this unfounded allegation several times, attempting to somehow intimate that this is my forum or that i am some sort of administrator ..  when it is very apparent that i am merely a member (1 of 348) and a new one at that .. ..  please get your facts straight and stop erroneously attributing such things to me ..

15) “I have asked you to do an interview about this. I have also asked Al  Carroll .  I will give you the same space, energy and time. I can also cut and past this entire discussion and add photos to it, unedited if you like. Maybe just do a quick spell check. Would that suffice?  the only thing I would need from you is a disclaimer in terms of anyone suing for slander or defamation of character.  You  have named a lot of people here..??? ..
a) you have never directly asked me to do an  interview ..
b) i have already stated that you do NOT have my permission to print any of my words in your magazine or anywhere else .. nor will i likely ever give that permission under the present circumstances ..
 c) i have not named anyone, i merely referred to suzanne dupree in my responses to you and others about her, this reference is merely denoting who i am speaking of .. again you are confusing me with others ..

16) your apparently under the mistaken impression that i am Dine’ (navajo) .. i have not claimed to be of Dine’ linage nor in other way intimated that i am .. how did you come to this conclusion? .. i am not Dine’, i do not have any Dine’ lineage whatsoever .. ..

so .. i will reiterate and hope that this time you "get it" ..  .. i am just an old woman with opinions and concerns .. period .. i have no agenda, hidden or otherwise .. i joined this forum to voice some of those opinions and concerns, nothing more ..
i have only posted in this forum a few times .. i am not a regular contributing member per se .. i am still quite new to this forum ..i have no friends in here, indeed i do not even know anyone in here other than Harold .. and i only know Harold from another forum ..  .. in all actuality, i probably would not have joined in this particular discussion at all had you not sent me a personal message alerting me to your re-opening of this topic and asking for my input .. i am the OP of this thread, yet it would behoove you to notice where i placed my query about your magazine .. within “needs research??? .. meaning that i simply thought your magazine and its content might just possibly warrant some research .. i have made absolutely no accusations whatsoever .. i have merely expressed my own opinions .. .. .. a total of 4 posts, including my OP, were posted on this on January 30th, 2006 .. this thread has remained dormant since that date .. until you re-opened it .. the only reason i re-entered this thread was at your behest .. and quite honestly, if i had had any inkling of your intent, i would have declined your invitation to participate in this discussion ..

i have dealt with a great number of people like you .. it is rarely a pleasant experience and is certainly not one i wish to repeat, given a choice .. in my opinion, attempting to talk with someone such as yourself, is futile and quite simply a waste of everyone’s time .. yours as well as mine .. your  obviously deeply imbedded preconceived notions of ndn, as well as your argumentative demeanor,  preclude any fruitful dialogue between us .. this is not intended to be in any way a condemnation of your character .. it is merely my own personal opinion .. an in no way reflects anything but my own personal opinion .. ..

to be quite honest, i do not feel as if i am educated enough nor articulate enough to have this dialogue with you .. i am simply not able to keep up with your many vagaries, the twists and turns of your way of conversing is foreign to my understanding and comprehension .. although apparently quite acceptable in your world ..  your antagonism, sarcasm, innuendo, disrespect, and blatant mockery of others is an unacceptable form of communication to me .. and as i feel completely unqualified to respond in kind .. i must decline to participate .. it appears to merely be an exercise in futility to me .. i see no point .. based on what i have seen so far .. your prefer conflict to actual conversation .. .. all i have seen is that you bait and you goad all who will not acquiesce to your self-proclaimed  superior knowledge ..  .. “bad form, chap??? ..   

therefore .. i am respectfully withdrawing from further discourse with you ..
wado equa ..
tachia
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 03, 2007, 02:26:03 am
Marlon
The country of Tibet has been brutally occupied by China and the traditions of the Tibetian people have been brutally repressed . If someone born in Tibet but living in China declared they were the real Dali Lama , and they tried to say the other one was an imposter , and people who were knowledgeable Tibetian Buddists said they thought this person was confused , it would not be appropriate for a Chinese person to argue that point , or to insist the Buddist community in Tibet produce indesputable proof of this . It is for the Tibetians to say who the real Dali Lama is .

Not the Chinese .

Period .
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: frederica on June 03, 2007, 03:44:34 am
I will call you John, as Marlon is inappropiate. You said Ms. Dupree came to you. She knows who she has to go to establish her claim. Otherwise this is all games. Enough said. I'm through with it. frederica
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: Marlon on June 03, 2007, 04:04:43 am
Hi Fredereke, yes please call me tomorrow.

Hi Moma,

Yes that's is correct and I also believe this is a private matter.  But when I was accused of "propagating genocide" for deliberately supporting a fraud (s) you left me no other option than to explain to you my reasoning and logic for doing so. 
 
I will say one last thing. This is not a threat of any kind, just what I see If this continues and you do not settle this, meaning the two parties concerned, this is what you will be stepping into, this abyss. Then guess who will be rejoicing.  These vultures below.

US TELEVISION NETWORKS
MEDIA SYNDICATES
COMPREHENSIVE U.S. MEDIA REPORTERS (TV/NEWSPAPERS)
UNITED STATES NEWSPAPERS
NEW YORK MEDIA (TV - RADIO - NEWSPAPERS NYC & State)
UNIVERSITY JOURNALISM DEPARTMENTS
SALON.COM
US RADIO NETWORKS
NY RADIO STATIONS
FIREFIGHTERS UNIONS

[Huge amounts of off topic material deleted. This is bordering on spamming.

And I have no idea why you smear a firefighters' union as "vulture" or even what the list had to do with anything.

At this I'm starting to doubt your sanity.

This will be your last warning. We've been more than patient:

QUIT FLOODING US WITH OFF TOPIC MATERIAL.]
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: weheli on June 03, 2007, 04:23:15 pm
It is obvious the agenda all along was about Dupree, I for one am seeing this as continued spam by John/marlon, maybe a "covert interview for the magazine?" It is very obvious this is going nowhere and this issue should and will be taken care of by the Lakota,Dakota ect. I do know they are investigating her claims. PERIOD. Enough said. Eh????
                                                                             Weheli
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: LittleOldMan on June 03, 2007, 07:24:59 pm
I have read, I have considered.  This is a Lakota, Dakota, etc issue. They are aware.  They will handle it in their own way and in their own time.  More important it is a Creator Issue and HE WILL handle it in time. Wado Little Old Man
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on June 03, 2007, 08:54:05 pm

Hi Moma,

Yes that's is correct and I also believe this is a private matter.  But when I was accused of "propagating genocide" for deliberately supporting a fraud (s) you left me no other option than to explain to you my reasoning and logic for doing so. 
 
I will say one last thing. This is not a threat of any kind, just what I see If this continues and you do not settle this, meaning the two parties concerned, this is what you will be stepping into, this abyss. Then guess who will be rejoicing.  These vultures below.

US TELEVISION NETWORKS
MEDIA SYNDICATES
COMPREHENSIVE U.S. MEDIA REPORTERS (TV/NEWSPAPERS)
UNITED STATES NEWSPAPERS
NEW YORK MEDIA (TV - RADIO - NEWSPAPERS NYC & State)
UNIVERSITY JOURNALISM DEPARTMENTS
SALON.COM
US RADIO NETWORKS
NY RADIO STATIONS
FIREFIGHTERS UNIONS


NAFPS members participating in this thread .. ..

i have to comment on this latest post by john, aka marlon .. ..
perhaps i am just bored this day .. and i was also quite offended at the term "vultures"being applied especially to our brave Firefighters .. .. just out of curiosity .. .. as john/marlon has listed the following in his “this is not a threat..??? post .. and in his own words he calls them: “These vultures below.???

john/marlon listed:
“UNIVERSITY JOURNALISM DEPARTMENTS
Journalism@usm.edu BuckB44@hotmail.com Cindy.Brown@usm.edu David.Davies@usm.edu Edward.Frederick@usm.edu Arthur.Kaul@usm.edu Charles.Mayo@usm.edu Tommy.Smith@usm.edu Gene.Wiggins@usm.edu Margaret.Williams@usm.edu Johan.Yssel@usm.edu nsmith@unt.edu???

not real sure why the University of Southern Mississippi-School of Mass Communication and Journalism .. would be the slightest bit interested in any of this .. .. i am highlighting just a few of the above listed names and emails .. from these bio’s .. it does not appear to me that these PhD’s would waste their obviously valuable time on something so petty ..i also have to wonder how they would respond to being called “vultures??? .. ..  shrug ..

source: http://www.usm.edu/mcj/facultybios.htm

Cindy Brown, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
cindy.brown@usm.edu
Dr. Brown is on leave for the 2006 -07 academic year
Coordinator of the school’s photojournalism sequence, Dr. Brown has been teaching photojournalism and design courses at USM since 1999. She earned her doctorate in mass communication with a concentration in visual communication and media ethics from Indiana University-Bloomington. Prior to teaching at USM, Dr. Brown taught at Florida Southern College and at St. Mary-of-the-Wood College in Indiana. Before her academic career, Dr. Brown was a staff photojournalist for The St. Petersburg Times and a picture editor at The Indianapolis Star. In addition to working on documentary projects, Dr. Brown stays in touch with the real world of journalism by returning to the newsroom when she can. During the spring and summer of 2004, she worked for the Union Sentinel, a weekly newspaper in the mountains of North Georgia. A golf photo she took while working for the Sentinel placed first in the sports feature category in the Pictures of the Year International competition, in the Southern Short Course competition and in the Atlanta Photojournalism Seminar Competition. In the summer of 2001, Dr. Brown worked as a photojournalist and designer at The Sun Herald in Biloxi, Mississippi on a fellowship from the American Society of Newspaper Editors.

David R. Davies, Ph.D.
Associate Professor/Associate Director
Southern Hall 120
(601) 266-6237
dave.davies@usm.edu

Dr. Davies teaches print journalism and media history. Before entering academia, he was a reporter for 10 years in Arkansas, working for both the Arkansas Democrat and the Arkansas Gazette. He is a graduate of the Kiplinger Program in Public Affairs Reporting at Ohio State University, where he earned a master's degree in journalism. He also holds a master's degree in American history from The University of Southern Mississippi and a Ph.D. in mass communication specializing in media history from the University of Alabama. His research specialties are the press and the Civil Rights Movement and trends in American newspapers since World War II. He has written two books, The Press & Race: Mississippi Journalists Confront the Movement (University Press of Mississippi, 2001) and The Postwar Decline of American Newspapers, 1945-1965 (Praeger, 2006). Dr. Davies teaches undergraduate courses in reporting, editing, web design and media history, and graduate courses in media history. He also teaches the School's British Studies in Journalism class each summer in London as part of the USM British Studies Program. In 1998 his doctoral dissertation won the prize for best dissertation in media history awarded by the American Journalism Historians Association. He was chair of the USM Journalism Department from 1998 to 2001 and interim director of the School of Mass Communication and Journalism in 2004-2005. He has served on the board of directors of the American Journalism Historians Association and currently serves as coordinator of the AJHA's book award. In 2005 he was appointed to the board of directors of the University Press of Mississippi. In addition to his duties in MCJ, he serves as associate dean of the College of Arts & Letters, in charge of student services matters, and directs USM's University Forum. He is also assistant director of USM's British Studies Program.

Arthur J. Kaul, Ph.D.
Professor/Assistant Director
Southern Hall 219
(601) 266-4269
arthur.kaul@usm.edu

Dr. Kaul joined the USM faculty in 1984, after teaching at Western Kentucky University (1982-84). He earned master’s and doctoral degrees in journalism from Southern Illinois University at Carbondale, master’s in humanities from Western Kentucky University and bachelor’s in psychology and English from Central Methodist College. He has served as president of the USM Faculty Senate (1999-2000). Prior to entering academia, Kaul was a reporter/education writer for daily newspapers in Kentucky and Missouri. In 1989, he received the University's Excellence in Teaching Award. He has served as a member of the Professional Freedom and Responsibility Committee (1992-95) of the Association for Education in Journalism and Mass Communication. He serves on the editorial advisory board of the Journal of Mass Media Ethics. Dr. Kaul edited American Literary Journalists, 1945-1995, Volume 185, Dictionary of Literary Biography (1997) and has published approximately 35 articles, essays and reviews in books, scholarly journals and encyclopedias. His most recent publications were chapters in The Press and Race: Mississippi Journalists Confront the Movement (University Press of Mississippi, 2001); Illusive Shadows: Justice, Media and Socially Significant American Trials (Praeger, 2003); and Notable American Women: A Biographical Dictionary Completing the Twentieth Century (Harvard University Press, 2004). He has directed approximately 20 doctoral dissertations, including the winner of the Margaret A. Blanchard Prize for the best dissertation on mass communication history produced in 2004.  His primary scholarly areas are mass communication history, media ethics and literary journalism.


more curiosity .. from the same post of john/marlons .. more of what he calls “vultures??? ..

john/marlon listed:
“SALON.COM
(list of emails)

again .. not real sure why an Internet/Computer Firm in the UK would be the slightest bit interested in john/marlons “agenda??? .. whatever that might be .. i also wonder if they would appreciate being called “vultures??? by john/marlon .. shrug .. ..

solon.com
web site: http://www.solon.com/

Solon Systems Development Ltd
source: http://www.bcentral.co.uk/consultant/detail/742191ed/Solon-Systems-

Development-Ltd.mspx
Rhyd Galed
Hebron
Whitland, Wales
SA34 0YR
Phone: +1 (845) 260 0232
Fax: +1 (845) 260 0233
Website: http://www.solon.com

Company Description
We are bespoke software developers with expertise in accountancy, construction industry, and ecommerce based systems. We are also web site developers. Our systems are generally built on an SQL database platform. We install and support PC networks built on Microsoft Windows 2000 or 2003 platforms. We are PC and RAID server builders. We install ISDN telephone systems and CCTV systems. Our products include PCs, RAID servers, and a range of components and peripherals.
*This description and profile was provided verbatim by the company listed


Solon Systems Development Ltd
source: http://www.ukwda.org/resultsnew.asp?county=Dyfed&searchtype=county
Contact Name    Kingsley Oliver
Position       Sales and Support Manager
Address       26a High Street, Haverfordwest, Dyfed SA61 2DA
Telephone No.    01437 779173
Fax No.       01437 779179
Website       http://www.solon.com
Business Status    Private Limited Company (LTD)
Year Established    1997

and last but not least .. john/marlon lists:
“FIREFIGHTERS UNIONS???
(long list of emails) ..

now on this one i have to take personal offence .. Firefighters are “vultures??? ??.. i happen to have family and friends that are firefighters .. the best “jump team??? in the country is comprised of American Indians! .. the men and women that comprise our firefighters in this country put their lives on the line every day! for all of us! they are HEROS! .. certainly not “vultures???!! ..

john/marlon also lists all  of the following as being “vultures???:

“US TELEVISION NETWORKS
MEDIA SYNDICATES
COMPREHENSIVE U.S. MEDIA REPORTERS (TV/NEWSPAPERS)
UNITED STATES NEWSPAPERS
NEW YORK MEDIA (TV - RADIO - NEWSPAPERS NYC & State)
US RADIO NETWORKS
NY RADIO STATIONS
CANADIAN PAPERS & TELEVISION???

i have to wonder how these Media networks, syndicates, reporters, newspapers, radio stations, television stations, etc .. as well as all the individual people whose names and emails are listed under these headings .. ..  would react to being called “vultures??? by john/marlon .. could this possibly be construed as being slanderous and libelous? .. i do wonder .. yet, ahh what do i know? .. shrug .. i am simply a bored old woman ..
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on June 03, 2007, 08:58:46 pm
just one last thought here .. .. if john agrees that this is a private matter as he states .. then why is he 'threatening' to make it public by notifying a huge list of, as he calls them, "vultures" .. ??
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: frederica on June 03, 2007, 09:12:56 pm
Tachia, I think it is slander or libel if it actually interfers with the person's life in some way that damages it. I doubt if the News would be damaged by being called "vultures". It's not really private, it is a matter for the people of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota Nations to decide. It was dropped here a long time ago after it was all over the internet, in multiple forums and across the Rez,  some had questions. I don't think anything has changed. frederica
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: tachia on June 03, 2007, 09:19:14 pm
Tachia, I think it is slander or libel if it actually interfers with the person's life in some way that damages it. I doubt if the News would be damaged by being called "vultures". It's not really private, it is a matter for the people of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota Nations to decide. It was dropped here a long time ago after it was all over the internet, in multiple forums and across the Rez,  some had questions. I don't think anything has changed. frederica
federica .. thank you for the clarification .. i am not familiar with such things .. was just wondering about it .. now i know .. :) .. thanks!
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: marlon2 on June 04, 2007, 03:43:24 am
Hi Al, the fire fighters post was an accident. Yes they are heroes. Especially these guys in New York who worked on 911.  They are from my 911 Truth Movement Activist List who I also work for. I cut and pasted them in with my news contacts. The universities were also added in error.  I just wanted to clear that up so you understood.
 
Anyway I also see you have deleted parts of my post again; then inserted comments in brackets which is  misleading and appears as that you are deliberately creating a false impression of me.
 
I also see you have said that I have repeatedly threatened you with a libel suit. Can you please show me where I have threatened you with a law suit?  Are you sure you are not confusing me with someone else?  I told momaporcupine that I was not threatening as I see that as a waste of time and energy; so why are you twisting the truth?
 

Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: educatedindian on June 04, 2007, 11:56:15 am
Most people would take this as an explicit threat, "do what I demand or I'm going to expose you and smear your name with all these groups".

In your exact words:

"I will say one last thing. This is not a threat of any kind, just what I see If this continues and you do not settle this, meaning the two parties concerned, this is what you will be stepping into, this abyss. Then guess who will be rejoicing.  These vultures below."

In other words, since you and Dupree equate our finding information from Carter Camp and others that contradicts Dupree's slander campaign against Looking Horse with somehow committing "slander" ourselves, the two of you will begin a campaign of slander against us next if we don't delete the statements we found.

The two faced statement, "this is not a threat..." followed by explicit threats, seems typical of you. You've claimed to be a disinterested observer, yet have done your best to dominate, bully, spammed us repeatedly with over 40 posts in a few days (more than the entire rest of the forum combined) and come close to being patronizingly racist in your condescending remarks almost as though you said to yourself, "I'll show those dumb Indians I know their cultures better than they possibly could!"

Once again, I ask you to show the most basic courtesy and quit being condescending, making two faced statements, and learn to listen more than talk. It's obvious you know very little about Indian people, but at least you could be polite for a change. Even better would be being honest about your purpose in here as solely an ally or follower of Dupree loking for publicity for her, or possibly cash.

And I make no apologies for deleting posts that needlessly repeat the same information, wander off topic, or are comments that show you to be an overgrown child making personal insults against people who've done nothing to you. You've been especially insulting to Tachia and should apologize to her. Didn't your family teach you to respect those older than you? In Indian Country one of the worst insults is "He acts like he has no family." That's the way you've sometimes behaved.

In fact, I apologize to the rest of NAFPS for not letting Marlon know far sooner he was way out of line repeatedly. I've been without net service for much of the past several days, otherwise I would never let anyone be treated in here the way Marlon has treated Tachia.
Title: Re: disturbing?
Post by: marlon2 on June 05, 2007, 04:13:57 am
[Note: Hard to see red color removed]

Hi [veiled threat], you obviously [childish insult] [childish insult] otherwise you would not be using a pseudonym and concealing your identity.

[Note: I've always been quite open about my identity. My name must be on this site in hundreds of places.]

[More needless repetition. Once again Marlon, quit spamming us with duplicate information.]

First of all, what you equate is more of your opinion, but that's all it is;  a subjective and inaccurate interpretation of my intentions of [childish insult]. 

[More duplicate information.]

just because CC does not believe LBW and does not know what she is talking about; this does not make it unequivocal proof or incontrovertible evidence that she is a fraud.  He, like anyone else, has the right to his opinion. 

Whether what you or anyone else has said is slander is not for me to judge.  I am not a lawyer or an expert in libel, slander or defamation of character.  By giving someone a definition of slander is not saying they are going to sue you. I have told you I have no interest in wasting my time on suing anyone. What anyone else does is none of my business

[More duplicate information]

[veiled threat], As far as the two faced threat, I told you this is not a threat.  My point was that this can so easily be brought to the attention of the national media and then this will not be private anymore. That was my way of illustrating how easy it is for anyone to send one of these media people an email about this since all of a sudden this has become a private matter and not to be discussed over the internet. And even if I did, [childish insult].  If you are so sure of your accusations, what is there to fear. If you had so much confidence in what you were doing and saying you would be calling them yourself.  60 minutes are good at this sort of thing.

 As far as bully, dominating group discussions, spammed repeatedly with 40 posts in a few days is concerned, yes I did post 40 times. It's possible if you keep this up [direct threat]. Each one [direct threat].[/color]

Bully / dominate, once again this is [childish insult] .

[condescending filler]
[more condescending filler]
[yet more condescending filler]

 Now when you repeatedly accuse people of fraud and other matters in the public arena in order to [childish insult] [childish insult] [childish insult] , this is [childish insult].

I don't have an website like you do of wrongfully accusing some medicine men of being frauds, rapists. perverts and more. And when someone questions you, you try everything you can to make them back off; because they don't fit into Arvol's Proclamation Ideal.

Now, when I saw you deleted my posts and inserted [childish insult], it reminded me of
[condescending story]
This is [childish insult]

As far as patronizing "showing the dumb Indians"; this again pchildish insult] [childish insult] when any white person dares to take interest in Native  American spirituality. 
[Slander and racism]
. What is the most telling is your "who we are" page [slander and racism
That is like [slander and racism]. In other words, [childish insult] [projection] [condescension]

On the subject of respect, I did post this, let me remind you on the Thomas Lightening Bolt post. I did this as my way of illustrating what I see lacking in your website.
 
[Duplicate material removed for the third time, which as used by Marlon is also condescending and patronizingly racist]

[More duplicate material]

[Veiled threat for the third time], now here you are, the man who for the last 4 years has called people  frauds, perverts, rapists, and much more, giving me a lecture of being condescending, and being polite.

[Note: I have never "called" them. The facts of what they do are on the public record, sometime the police record.]

 This is [condescending racism] [slander and condescending racism]. I addressed this above and do not see the sense in sounding like a broken record. 

[ROFL! Since when have you ever restrained yourself from repeating, over and over?]

As far as apologizing to Tachia.,

[Followed by more insults of Tachia.]

Anyway, for the record, I did not take offense to this. Offense is a decision I chose not to make. This is not something that happens. It's a matter of choice. I don't get offended Al.  Can't you see that by now[/color].

[Yet more duplicate material.]

Al here is another example [condescension and psycho babble]. I could easily say your entire website is an extension of Arvol Looking Horse's proclamation and you being one of his followers and his way of policing who he sees fit or doesn't see fit to smoke a canunpa.

as far as honesty or following anyone or any one ally;  did you not see the Khrisnamurti video. I informed Tachia in the first email that this is my perspective on her post.   Interviewing someone is not being a follower. I don't follow Arvol Looking Horse all over Europe [childish insult] promoting books and films on who you think is fit or not fit to be a medicine man, or who should give him Eagle Feather's and their canunpas. 

As far as looking for publicity for LBW,  I am not anyone's PR agent. I also told Tachia this in the first email. As far as cash goes, cash for what? 

[More dense than ever. Dupree vowed in her emails to get all the cash she could from lawsuits.

 What is she selling. Does she have a product to sell?  I have not seen one so far. Do you see her selling anything?  She doesn't have a foundation either. Your site asks for donations. LBWs does not. Freda also told me you gave a 100 percent, now today I find out you gave only 50 percent.

[Actually I gave about 80%. She talked me out of giving the last 20 percent. I also gave up the income I would have gotten from teaching in the summer, not to mention being away from my family and fiancee.

Way to go Marlon. You keep smearing charities for Native children.]

Maybe you should [childish insult, condescension]. They were not wandering off topics and were all in reference to Tachia's email about the magazine. The magazine covers more then LBW which [childish insult]. 

Tachia said I was interviewing perverts, frauds and the rest and was propagating genocide. She mentioned Rolling Thunder and LBW.    Barnaby mentioned Kevin Annett (who I will address on a separate post soon) and Thomas Lightning Bolt.   Who is this "pervert" Harley Reagen by the way Debbie's choice of words not mine? 

[If you don't know, that just shows your ignorance of these issues, your being too lazy to find out, and your carelessness in what you havein your magazine. You promoted his teachings in your magazine, the phony "Twisted Hairs."]

All these topics are related. My posts were my reasons for interviewing these people. Now if you don't like the way I responded to Tachia's labeling these interviewees feces, lost wonder bread, perverts, rapists etc. - that is another issue. 

[Yet more duplicate information]

Al, as far as being an overgrown child making personal insults [childish insult] and [childish insult].

As far as "who've done nothing to me", that's also your subjective reading of this.  Labeling someone a propagator of genocide, racist, and more is a bit of an interesting charge? 

Then you said "Didn't your family teach you to respect those older than you"?

[Veiled threat for the fourth time], Just because someone is older is not always a reason to give them respect.

[Followed by a final extremely vicious insult of Tachia. That's enough. This overgrown baby was given dozens of chances more than he deserved. He's gone.]
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: educatedindian on June 08, 2007, 09:27:23 pm
I realize most people here are pretty sick of the topic, but there's a few more things that need saying about John Lekay ("Marlon").

A lot of Lekay's beliefs are pretty out there. He talked with us about his support for the "9-11 Truth Commission." For those who don't know, that's a conspiracy website. They claim there's a massive government conspiracy, that 9-11 was done by Bush, that the towers were detonated before or after the planes hit by "controlled demolitions", in other words, tinfoil hat wearing stuff that there's no evidence for and all the evidence against.

(I realize all the evidence there is that Bush and co were warned repeatedly. But incompetence is not the same as evidence of a conspiracy for mass murder.) 

Remember that he also accused Barnaby of being an FBI agent, just for daring to criticize Kevin Arnett. So he seems to be the very paranoid variety of pseudo leftist, like Churchill in some ways.

Lekay also seems to have been kicked off of Wikipedia and his webpage there deleted. They don't say why, but it seems to involved a lot of "vandalism" of content he didn't agree with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AmiDaniel/Archive4
"John, remove remarks...
<name removed> 00:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I generally observe very strict no censorship rules on my talk page, as it serves not only as a way for others to contact me, but also as a log of my previous actions. If, for instance, the process surounding the deletion of John LeKay ever came into question, these messages would come in useful."
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: frederica on June 08, 2007, 11:12:44 pm
He, himself baits like a Fed. Make me wonder which side he was coming from. frederica
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on June 11, 2007, 06:38:55 pm
Damn! He blew my cover! I guess The Agency will have to tweak the settings on his cranial implant.

I should also apologise for allowing LeKay to abuse people here. I've just got back online today after having no internet access since the weekend before last. You have to get up very early here to grab a  slot on a library computer, and what with one thing and another, I didn't manage it.

I don't think LeKay is bad-jacketing here, I think he's just one of those Crusaders For Truth who's train of thought has gone off the rails.
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 25, 2007, 02:37:53 am
I just took a look at Marlon / John Lekay's Heyoka magazine, and I see he is now using his magazine to try to discredit NAFPS  , the information we provide here, and he is specifically trying to discredit educatedindian AKA Al Carroll .

This seems so blatently malicious , I am really appauled .

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:RHpS6mzi9sEJ:www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.IsALCarrolAFraud.htm+Heyoka+%22
Al+Carroll%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:RHpS6mzi9sEJ:www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.IsALCarrolAFraud.htm+Heyoka+%22
Al+Carroll%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca)

In my opinion , the Heyoka magazine is turning out to be an example of biased reporting , at it's finest .

For people who haven't kept track of the dialog , this thread was first posted  under the title " Is this disturbing?" .

Initially , there was some concerns expressed about some of the content of *some* of the on line Heyoka magazine .

In reply # 2 educatedindian acknowledged where this magazine seemed to be doing good ,  but questioned some of the people who were being promoted through being given public exposure. These comments were not unreasonable .

Several months later John Lekay came here , and started a thread on Thomas Lighteningbolt , and Lekay asked what we thought of Thomas.

Lekay was told , within the norms of Native culture, that the way Lightening bolt was talking about some things , didn't seem right , and we tried to explain why  .

It is hard to demonstrate cultural norms on line , but here is one comment which is a good example of what we tried to explain .

http://www.ammsa.com/buffalospirit/February-2000/adviceonpowwowtrail.html (http://www.ammsa.com/buffalospirit/February-2000/adviceonpowwowtrail.html)

Boye G. Ladd
 
Quote
Many times I have seen individuals "showing off" their sundance scars, tobacco ties or amulets hanging around their necks - exposed. When a person carries protection and/or medicine, it should always be hidden and never be spoken about.

 Spiritual leaders and medicine men should be considered in the same light. For the true and sincere, their reverence is based on humbleness, dedication and sacrifice. Anytime someone stands before you and claims to be a medicine man, do not believe him or anything he says, because he or she has desecrated their oath of humbleness. You will not find a true and sincere spiritual leader or medicine man teaching in a school or university, or seeking public attention.

Lekay would not accept our explanations of why something felt 'off', and for every explaination we gave,  he would find some
incident of public display which may have occured in an unusual context , and he insisted if we didn't think this was normal, it was just us being unfair .

Lekay has repeatedly dismissed what Native people and Elders have to say on this , as just opinions and gossip .

Then Lekay began insisting we were being unfair to disagree with LBW's apparent self proclaimed Spiritual leadership of the Lakota people, and suggested if we didn't stop disputing her claims , we risked getting sued .

As far as I can tell , LBW's claims which Lekay seems so determined to defend , are based on a overwhelming collection of often unrelated facts and stories, which LBW has stitched together with nothing more than her own guess work and wishful thinking . As I pointed out in the thread "Dupree part 2" ,  many of her statements would appear to contradict themselves. The bottom line is , LBW's believes that the Lakota people had too many problems , to have their Spiritual leaders actually live within the Lakota Nation . She believes this authority was passed to her because she lives outside the Lakota community and she will protect Lakota Spiritual traditions from the evils and incompetance of the Lakota people and community  . If the Lakota people don't support her aspiritions , she just hints that it is the incompetance and corruption of the Lakota people that is the reason .

In spite of the fact we all seem to agree it is not right for anyone to declare themselves the Spiritual leader of the Lakota  people , without substanial support and recognition from within the Lakota community , and in spite of the fact that requests for the names of any Lakota Elders who might support LBW's claims have been ignored , Lekay has used his online media resources to give one sided support to LBW , and to discredit anyone who dares to support the generally recognized Spiritul authoritites within the Lakota Nation.

In my opinion , Educated indian and Barnaby have repeatedly done Mr lekay a great favour , by edititng the most outrageous and nasty comments out of his posts , though a scaled down version of them , as evidence ,still remain . I saw no brilliant points removed as Mr Lekay is claiming . Just an amazing amount of disrespect . Why is mr Lekay acting like this ?

It seems Lekay is now imagining it is Al who thought up the guidelines , and cultural norms we repeatedly try and explain to people through this message board. It seems Mr Lekay believes if he can discredit Al , he will also discredit the widely held values and social norms of Indians in general , which for some reason seem to cause him discomfort .

So Mr Lekay,  as you really seem to be having a hard time understanding that we are not a hate group and Al is not what I
would consider a suspicious person , perhaps you will consider the following ;

First off , as I understand it , people posting in NAFPS are generally opposed to  ;

1. People degrading and trivializing indiginous Spiritual traditions by using them as nothing more than an exotic commercial commodity.

2. People degrading and trivializing indiginous Spiritual traditions through selecting parts of these traditons and using them out of the context of the balance provided by a deeply rooted knowledgeable Native community .

3. People claiming they are qualified and authorized to this , when the generally recognized Spiritual authorities within a Native community , do not feel it is a good idea for these traditions to be used in this way  .

4 People who gain peoples trust by making these unfounded claims to Spiritual authority when they are not recognized as qualified , by a deeply rooted knowledgable Native community .

5. People who are not members of deeply rooted knowledgeable Native communities recognizing and empowering people as indiginous Spiritual authorities, who are unqualified , or dishonest , or delusional , or exploitive of traditional practices.

When people posting in NAFPS point out that the authority that comes from within Native communities is not being respected , or that a person is misrepresenting themselves as having this authority , or the traditions are being distorted and degraded  ,as I understand it , the general concern is to preserve the authority of knowledgeable recognized Spiritual leaders within Native communities , which in turn protects the intgrity and potency of these traditions for future generations .

The maintence of the systemic wisdom inherent in these communites ,  does and will benifit all mankind .

Most Native people understand that it is not necessary to be leading or even personally participating in a ceremony in order to benifit from it . It is only the non native emphasis on the importance of the individual , that assumes everybody needs to have the opprotunity to personally have or experince a central role in everything .

The damage done to indiginous communities and non indiginous peoples who get involved with these unqualified self proclaimed
Spiritual authorities is very real. Because many of the people posting here have seen this damage , first hand , most the people posting in NAFPS don't like exploiters and frauds.

It has been a common colonization tactic to recognize and promote people as having authority within the nation that is being colonized , only because it suits the purposes of the colonizer .

As indiginous peoples have gone through 500 years of this already , seeing this disrespectful behavior repeated , does make some people angry . To suggest people who have been wronged , are guilty for their own feelings of outrage, and if they organize any resistance to their authority being further undermined , they are a "hate group " only furthers the injustice .
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 25, 2007, 02:39:34 am
The point of veiw I have just maped out, is not one Al Carroll invented . 

resentThe long list of articles in the link below should be sufficent proof that the concerns expressed in this forum can not be fairly claimed to be based on personal opinions or intrests .   

http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm)
   
To try and make Al's BQ or the enrollment he has always been clear he does not have, the main issue , would seem to be nothing
more than an effort to divert peoples attention away from the true issues , and to weaken support for the recognized authorities that are selected by Native communities , by weakening support for their supporters.

I don't know Al Carroll , and in cyber space some skeptism is always a good idea , but from what I can see , I don't have any reason to doubt that Al Carroll is an unenrolled mixed blood person of Apache descent , as he claims .
    
Re: The United People of the Cherokee Nation
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 09:27:22 AM » educatedindian
Quote
Remember I'm not enrolled either, but I would never call myself "Apache Chief of Band X."

From pictures I have seen , such as the one in the link below , I don't think there is much question that this person is of Native descent . I don't think the person in this photo could pass for anything else . 

http://www.americanindianprisoners.com/Pages/Al%20Carroll.htm (http://www.americanindianprisoners.com/Pages/Al%20Carroll.htm)

In the link below Al Carroll  is listed on a univercity website , as working with other Native people in Native studies and he is said to be Apache .

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:MoU9Pn3GvnMJ:www.asu.edu/clas/history/faculty/bios/iverson.pdf+%22Alton+Carroll
%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=17&gl=ca
 (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:MoU9Pn3GvnMJ:www.asu.edu/clas/history/faculty/bios/iverson.pdf+%22Alton+Carroll
%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=17&gl=ca)
Quote
Peter Iverson: Abbreviated Curriculum Vitae (emphasis on 2002-2004)
P Position: Regents’ Professor of History
And Faculty Affiliate in American Indian Studies]Peter Iverson: Abbreviated Curriculum Vitae (emphasis on 2002-2004)
Present Position: Regents’ Professor of History
And Faculty Affiliate in American Indian Studies[/url]

New Courses:
Navajo History (an upper division undergraduate course)
Director of Students Completing Ph.D Programs in 2002, 2003, and 2004 (Total: 14)
2004: Julie Davis, Kathy Rolison (Western Cherokee), Alton Carroll (Mescalero
Apache), Elizabeth Carney Sowards, Michael Lawson]New Courses:
Navajo History (an upper division undergraduate course)
Director of Students Completing Ph.D Programs in 2002, 2003, and 2004 (Total: 14)
2004: Julie Davis, Kathy Rolison (Western Cherokee), Alton Carroll (Mescalero
Apache), Elizabeth Carney Sowards, Michael Lawson

You would think Native people in a Native studies program , living within 300 miles of Apache communities , would notice if one of their colleges claiming to be Apache wasn't . One of the first things Native people ask is where your family is from ,  who you know , and who your relatives are . I guess anything is possible ,  but I really find it highly unlikely Al could pass himself off as being an unenrolled Apache , when he was living so close to Apache communities , if he wasn't . Especially in a Native studies program .

I see no reason to doubt that Al is who he says he is . As the basic cultural information he offers is accurate , and does not depend on any personal qualities he may or may not posses , it seems like Lekay's manuover to discredit him is because it is easier to raise questions about Al, than the accuracy of the information Al provides .
 
John Lekay has also repeatedly suggested that Al might be considered an exploiter of Native culture himself, because he provides
information to stop people from exploiting this .

Re: disturbing? Marlon AKA John Lekay
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2007, 11:00:59 AM » Marlon

"
Quote
I can say you making a movie about exploitation about native causes being exploited and then selling this film or a book about this can also be interpreted as doing the exact same thing in another way. "

Quote
"the fact is Al Carroll is selling books, making films and giving seminars in Europe on his own people being exploited by what he refers to as "frauds and plastic shamans" and then questions the motivations of others like Thomas mails or others who write books about his own people could easily be perceived as hypocritical. You can not have one standard for your self and another for everyone else."

Freija explained she had put her life savings into this film , and after expences no one was any where near making any money on the film or the book .

Re: disturbing? Freija
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2007, 03:29:03 PM »

Quote
"Mr. Carroll gave most of his money from the European tour to Native causes, and the same way he and another 10 Native writers contributed for free to the bookproject - which raised 8000 dollars to Albuquerque Indian Center -  the same way it is my deepest hope that this film will bring money to Native people on Pine Ridge and other places. It might take some years before we break even, though. IF we do."

But I see Lekay is totally ignoring this , and again in this article to discredit Al, Lekay is insinuating Al shouldn't be trusted as a source of cultural information because he may claiming to be Apache for selfish monetary intrests .

Quote
"The obvious reasons and motivation for claiming to be of Mescalero Apache origin is usually monetarily driven, promotion of a career, books, seminars, films and donations for websites. Most often, they do this overseas and in Europe  where it is close to impossible for people to validate their claims.

Most people would recognize the benefits and realize that this is a great sales pitch to use the name of Geronimo on your bio and to say that you come from the same tribe as one of the bravest warriors that has ever lived. In this day and age, some people will go to great lengths to stand out from the crowd. Whether it's for an audition or selling a book or promoting a film."

I have no reason to believe these defamatory insinuations are true, and i see a lot of evidence to the contrary.
 
So what if Al put together a book and has helped with a movie that are trying to educate people how to recognize frauds, and some small percentage was given back to him , to help with some ( but not all ) of his expenses . That Al would even do this without payment is extremely generous of him . I don't see where Al is providing more than the basic type of cultural information provided by hundreds of books published by universities , sociologists and anthropologists .   

Beyond advocating basic respect , Al isn't sharing anything resembling Sacred teaching or ceremonies or "Indian wisdom ". 

Al is a Native rights activist , and makes no suggestion he is any kind of Apache Spiritual leader .

If Al got paid the low wage of $8 an hour , what you are looking at in time put into research and posting on this message board alone , represents about $10,000 to $20,000 worth of work . But he doesn't get $8 an hour , he does this for free . And that isn't counting all he does behind the scenes responding to private messages and supporting people who have been violated in ways too painful and private to discuss publicly .

For this he gets constantly personally criticized , threatened and publicly defamed . As far as I can tell , these critisms are coming entirely from exploiters and the non native people who want to be served by them .

The people most commonly targeted by frauds are uninformed non native people , in yet John Lekay claims NAFPS a hate group for trying to make sure these people have enough information to stay safe and make reasonable and responsible choices .

If one person decides not to listen to us , because of your discrediting us and calling NAFPS a hate group , and that person thand gets abused by a fraud , they otherwise would have known to have avoided , I hope you will understand your actions have helped to make this abuse possible .

Shame on you , for so childishly trying to discredit us , John Lekay .

I hope this might help people understand what we are doing here ..

Sorry to be so long ... Hope people didn't fall asleep 1/2 way through ... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on June 25, 2007, 01:39:41 pm
Thanks for that detailed response, Moma P. No doubt you'll soon find yourself 'exposed' on Lekay's site. ::)
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: frederica on June 25, 2007, 05:39:44 pm
Moma, doesn't really suprise me.  Since his "magazine" promotes ones like Red Elk, who I think is going off the air, and has ties to Harley "Swiftdeer" Regan, Scott Anderson, Mary Thunder and the Crystal Skulls, I think an attack on Al and NAFPS was expected. Conspiracy mongers are as about as bad as the extreme right including the KKK and Neo-Nazis. Function on little fact, mostly bulliying and bad information, if any information. And a certain amount of people will buy it, but it is people mostly like themselves. All you have to do is remember how he baited and tried to set up an elder woman in here, until she called him on this, to see how he functions. frederica
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Moma_porcupine on July 01, 2007, 04:39:46 pm
I agree  Lekay doesn't seem to have a clue who or what he is promoting . That's assuming Lekay has the good intentions he claims .

I see Lekay has published another article attempting to discredit the information posted in NAFPS . Sorry if this seems like I am beating a dead horse . I just can't resist poking at misleading arguements that don't even fit together . 

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:BfaEazpNtTgJ:www.heyokamagazine.com/MUSIC.Tommy.2.htm+Heyoka+NAFPS&hl=en&ct
=clnk&cd=3&gl=ca (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:BfaEazpNtTgJ:www.heyokamagazine.com/MUSIC.Tommy.2.htm+Heyoka+NAFPS&hl=en&ct
=clnk&cd=3&gl=ca)

Lekay
Quote
A part of It appears its based on this Green Grass proclamation  Why would anyone want the Bush Cheney administration telling people how to pray. That's bizarre.

Thomas Lightening bolt
Quote
Thank you for sending me a copy of that "Green Grass Proclamation" by Arvol Looking Horse. You are right, that is BIZZAR!

What seems bizzar to me is that Lekay and TLB would try and discredit the many recognized Elders who are listed with this proclamation , who are trying to protect their culture , by attributing this proclamation to the Bush Cheney administration . 

Lekay - refering to Al
Quote
He does comes across as if he wants to start another Helta skelta. A race war.
Lekay has already seen that people posting in NAFPS generally challenge anyone being dishonest , deceptive , disrepectful or exploitive , in their use of Native culture , regardless of their race  . People post here generally do this purely on principal and Lekay has seen this in our concens about some of the people of Native descent Lekay has promoted.

If Lekay sees this conflict as based on race, as he says , that would be non natives against Indians . As Lekay has said the Indians who are trying to protect their culture are "bizzar" , it would seem to follow that Lekay must be thinking it is the group of mainly non native people , and the Native people who serve non native intrests , who arn't bizzar . Presumably Lekay is supporting the people he thinks aren't bizzar which is by his own addmission would seem to be the group which is primarily non native. 

I guess it is good to know what side he is on , even if he hasn't consciously figured this out yet , himself ... Hopefully when he does, he might rethink his position .

TLB
Quote
The old smear campaign against medicine people, divide  and conquer concept

It looks to me like the divisions that exist would be between a group of Native people wanting to keep the traditional ways healthy by retaining them in a correct cultural context , and another group of mainly non native people , who are creating divisions and conquering Indian people and intrests , through diverting Native people to serve their own interests .

As the only people with any legitimate claim to authority in Native matters would be Native people recognized as authoritive by their tribe , if anyone is getting smeared , it would have to be the true tribal Spiritual leaders .   

TLB
Quote
That proclamation is ALL politics and my teacher said that politics is not Native American, it is a "white thing".
The proclomation refered to is NOT all about politics - though this attempt to discredit it might be . Undermining the authority of the Native leaders who serve the long term health and well being of their people and culture also undermines the survival of Native people and culture.  Hmmm .... Who would want to do something like that ? As I understand it that proclamation is all about preserving these traditions for future generations and the importance of maintaining these traditions within the balance only a deeply rooted knowledgeable traditional community can provide .

Lekay
Quote
What I do see is a pattern that Al Carroll/educated Indian attacks anyone who seems to not to fit into his compartment of what  he believes an authentic medicine man should be.

TLB
Quote
Who made these people God? How are  they qualified to sit on judgment on anyone? Who qualified them, the evil spirits, powers, and forces...or the Government?

I am always puzzled how it can be, that people who want to gain credibility by claiming to be practicing some sort of Native traditions , also want to be able to  contradict themselves by claiming they have a right to " do their own thing" , and these people will say no one has a right to judge if this is being done correctly . Sorry , but it can't be both ways . Native traditions have a structure, and protocols and if these are lost , what is being done cannot rightly be claimed to be Native traditions . If people want to invent things they should just call it that . Not "traditional " or Indian .

When people start insisting no one should judge , this implies there is no correct way to do these things . This attidude seems to rely upon the very racist assupmtion that presumes that there is no reason for how things are done, beyond superstision ,and no matter how people do things , the consequences will be the same .  This disrespectful attitude seem to presume that if people just want to make something up or are delusional that is just as valuable as the years of training and traditional protocols Elders say must be respected for these things to work properly . Which doesn't say much for the opinion these people have of the traditional knowledge of indiginous peoples .

This attituded of disrespect for traditional authorities and protocols gets repeated throughout this interview . 

TLB
Quote
And who the heck is Arvol to say anything about people selling the "sacred" when he himself was (or still is) selling copies
of the sacred "Star Book" ON LINE!

Who the heck is TLB ????  Why would Lekay even imagine that TLB , who , as I understand it , claims his teacher is someone called Coyote , who TLB claims is really Fools Crow , who now exists in another dimension , is an authoritive  person to ask about anything?

Any allegations coming from these two have almost no credibility as far as I am concerned . but if this alleged sale of the "Star book" occured, and was not the best thing to do , I am sure the Lakota community would be able to address this . This is one of the reasons it is so crucial that Spiritual traditions exist within a community which has enough knowledge to make sure things stay on track , because no individual has enough personal strength and knowledge to able to do this on their own .

And there is still more no brainers ...

TLB
Quote
How ever just  because someone may sell ceremony does not necessarily make them phony, it throws into question their ethics.

TLB:
Quote
I WANT a medicine man that has made mistakes, someone who has been there, who has had life experiences. Someone that I can relate to. Someone I can respect. To me, a flawless medicine man is phony.

Apparently it hasn't occured to him , that there is a connection between Spirituality and ethical behavior , or that people trusted as healers and guides who haven't got strong moral backbone can be as dangerous as medicine swallowed with the help of dirty water. Having learned from past mistakes and having humility is completely different than being untrustworthy . And if people have committed serious crimes, I don't think these people can reasonably expect to keep this secret and have access to people of the same description as their previous victims .

Lekay to TLB
Quote
Yes. So you never have done any of the things these newagefraud people have accused you off. Sold ceremony, healings etc.

Lekay doesn't even keep his basic facts straight .  Nobody ever accused TLB of selling ceremonies healings ect .The concern was his obvious self promotion and immodest public claims to be carrying medicine .   

TLB
Quote
as for claiming to be a medicine man ect... didn't Black Elk say he was a medicine man and talk about medicine in a public forum, along with many other "Untouchables" (people beyond reproach) Fools Crow, Geronimo, Lame Deer ect... ?

As I understand it , this information was shared at a time before there was wide spread exploitation of information belonging to Native communities , and it was shared out of a concern the information could be lost  . A person doing what they thought best to preserve cultural information is different , than talking about these things in conjunction with promoting the sale of a CD . 

TLB
Quote
The part that concerns me the most is that some one who may need help AND IS WORTHY OF HELP may take these evil lies to heart and not ask the one person at the right time, at the right place, who could of helped them and not receive the healing that  they DESERVED,

People deserve to be able to choose who they get involved with based on correct information about who this person is and what this person actually knows .

Lekay
Quote
In my opinion  Kevin Annett deserves a Nobel peace prize and his film unrepentant an Academy award for best new documentary and not this newagefraud nonsense.

At first glance any critism of Kevin Annett might appear to be unfounded and unfair , but a closer look reveals some serious ethical concerns . It is a lot to read through , and unfortunantly , it is so much easier to just do a quick glance and look at how things appear on the surface . Which is how people who are exploiters manage to get away with what they do . For people who want more information on the contraversy surounding Annett , it can be found in this thread .

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1231.0 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1231.0)

Gotta wonder what really motivates some people .
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: frederica on July 01, 2007, 05:16:42 pm
He definately has an agenda. Remember he could not make Al take down what was written about LBW, who he interviewed and supports. So he has to discredit the entire site. Also he tried to use one member, baiting her to set her up to claim Al was editing a post that was never really there. He is definately a pro at what he does. frederica
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: educatedindian on July 02, 2007, 02:18:13 pm
Sheesh, hard to believe Lekay is so paranoid annd out of touch as to claim Looking Horse is a tool of Bush and Cheney.

Of course he is either too lazy, or too incompetent to notice that the declarations from Looking Horse have been signed by hundreds of elders from dozens of nations.

Also pretty amazing that he claims we want to "start a race war" when our forum is about a third non Native members.

Incidentally, John boy, you come across as pretty racistr yourself when you insist over and over again you and only you know far better about Native cultures than any dumb NDN could.

I take it as a mark of success that the only "Indian" who has fallen for your line, outside of a dubious character like TLB, is David Yeagley, a white supremacist imposter.

That he continues to blindly worship a self destructive nut like Annett says volumes about him. Annett could not be doing more damage if he were trying. For both Lekay and Annett it's all about feeding their own paranoia and ego, not what's best for Native communities, and especially not about actually listening to Native people.
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Moma_porcupine on August 07, 2007, 04:06:03 pm
 I see steve_w has admitted to being John Martin and John Lekay has turned the thread in Ect titled " Steves side track " into an article in his Heyoka magazine , with some added comments . Wow Lekay sure can pick em ...

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:VAx-MHD-XzgJ:heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.JohnMartinOnNAFPS.htm+NAFPS+%22Al+Carroll%22&hl=en&gl=ca&strip=0 (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:VAx-MHD-XzgJ:heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.JohnMartinOnNAFPS.htm+NAFPS+%22Al+Carroll%22&hl=en&gl=ca&strip=0)

Quote
JOHN MARTIN ON NAFPS

This interaction is with a man named John Martin. A full blooded Lakota who went on the forum under the pseudonym Steve W to question Al Carroll about his hate speech, libeling others and his claims of being a Mescalero apache. Al Carroll was claming Steve W was John LeKay. This is
part of what transpired. Much of John Martin/Steve Ws posts were deleted but we fortunately caught the last post, Reply #12 Today July 24th 2007 at 12:50:23 PM in its entirety before this happened. For anyone who is wondering who Barnaby McEwan is, he is the European administer of NAFPS  residing in Totnes, Devon England.

The John Martin mentioned in the above link, reportedly made death threats on Al Carrolls parents phone , last spring . Reportedly The police were involved .  Lekay claims John Martin is a full blood Lakota . As if this " fact " in itself is all the credentials anyone should need for their opinions to be taken seriously .  Apparently Lekay doesn't have any problem promoting the views of someone who has a reputation of being a full on nut bar- as long as it is someone who will say what Lekay wants to hear  .

Suprisingly Lekay doesn't even notice this guy might not be credible when John Martin tells Lekay he is a full blood Lakota even though  Mr Martin  claimed to be Cherokee when posting in NAFPS . I wonder if Lekay ever bothered to check that out with the Lakota tribe Martin claims , or does Lekay only "scrutinze" those who don't support the misinformation Lekay wants people to believe ? 

Scrutinizing people involved in a public controversy is fine, but you really cross the line into " malicious intent " or at least " negligence " when you start publishing rumors from sources with no credibility or making stuff up because you aren't finding anything that really exists , and you want to discredit the person  .

Especially take a look at John Lekays note inserted into reply 10 . Referring to Al carroll ;( added when he turned this thread into an article on his website )

Quote
"He did not use the word expelled, or say that they demanded he be disqualified from his doctorial teachers training program. He created this ambiguity and impression of being an employed  teacher on the faculty at ASU. Any reasonable person would infer that this meant he was saying he is a ASU collage teacher.

Quote
As far as Mr. Hirst is concerned, this is completely off topic and appears as if you are deliberately just trying to change the subject and take the focus off  Mr Carroll and his claims of teaching at ASU. This only makes it more obvious that he
was not being entirely forth coming with the truth. "A half-truth is a whole lie??? Yiddish proverb. "

And reply 11 , Steve_w or John Martin ;

Quote
"Your own personal contact does not even refer to you as "Dr. Carroll". That says alot in itself. "

So it sounds like Lekay and John Martin are saying Al Carroll is a liar about having taught at ASU and about having received a Phd . Even a moderate amount of research proves this allegation that Al is a liar to be a lie . 

I believe these allegations are nothing but malicious attempt at defamation  , and even a moderate effort to research this would have shown Lekay  that Al did teach at ASU

http://www.asu.edu/aad/catalogs/2001-2002/general/history.html (http://www.asu.edu/aad/catalogs/2001-2002/general/history.html)

CORE FACULTY
Regents’ Professor: Iverson;
Professors: Adelson, Batalden, Burg, Davis, Dellheim, Fuchs, Giffin, Gratton, Kleinfeld, Lavrin, Luckingham, Mackinnon, Rosales, Ruiz, Simpson, Stowe, Tambs, Tillman, Trennert, Warnicke;
Associate Professors: Barnes, Carroll, Gray, Gullett, Hendricks, Kahn, Longley, Rush, Samuelson, Smith, Soergel, Stoner, Thornton, VanderMeer, Warren-Findley;
Assistant Professors: Manchester, Thompson, Wilson;
Senior Instructional Professional: Luey


Here an ASU webpage which mentions Alton Carroll having a Phd in history .

http://64.233.169.104/u/arizonastate?q=cache:JN0rq-6pS8cJ:www.asu.edu/news/printedition/pdfs/070204.pdf
+Carroll&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=434&ie=UTF-8 (http://64.233.169.104/u/arizonastate?q=cache:JN0rq-6pS8cJ:www.asu.edu/news/printedition/pdfs/070204.pdf
+Carroll&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=434&ie=UTF-8)

Defenses
Alton Carl Carroll, Ph.D., Hist., 1 p.m., July 6, COOR 4411.


And then there is this piece of irresponsible reporting ;

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:1EtxOq9Vq58J:heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.JL.Response.htm+Brent+David+heyoka&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:1EtxOq9Vq58J:heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.JL.Response.htm+Brent+David+heyoka&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca)

Quote
It has been alleged that Brent Michael David's is using the pseudonym of "moma porcupine" on the NAFPS website. However this has never been proved or disproved.

While I am flattered and amused that anyone would think this  , I am not sure Brent Micheal David would be , and attributing my opinions and activities to him may be defamatory , and it is definently untrue . I am not Brent Micheal Davies , and there is absolutely no evidence of this , or reason to think I am . Lekay really does seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between investigative reporting of the facts , and just making stuff up . Lekay also doesn't seem to understand the responsibility he has if he passes on incorrect information , and peoples lives are affected .   

If I don't feel safe to say who I am , why would it be OK to wrongly attribute my posts to Brent Micheal David ?

There is a big difference between publishing something you honestly believe is true and in the public intrest and malicious defamation .

Someone posting on Indianz.com as "Child Roland" who claims to be a psychologist from Manitoba pointed out that Al being a public figure should expect scrutiny .

That seems to be fair enough . But if you if you scurtinze someone and you don't find anything , you can't just make something up .

There is a huge difference between repeating a story you were told that you have reasonable grounds to believe it true , that appears to come from a credible source , and repeating a story from someone like John Martin .

If people want to "scrutinize " people here , they also need "scrutinze" the source of their other information . Did Lekay call John Martin's alleged tribe to find out if he is s full blood Lakota ?  Did Lekay contact Dupree's tribal Elders and ask about her claims to be entitled to Arvol's position ? He has never mentioned any Lakota Elders who are supporting these claims .

Repeating sourceless rumors , that don't fit with any of the known facts , to people who are not vulnerable to the type of bad experince you are alleging , is very different than repeating the information you were told directly from someone that was abused , to other people who are likely to be vulnerable to the same bad experince .

Maybe Lekay could learn something from NAFPS, where we do try to make sure what we post is in the public intrest, and we do try to make sure we have our facts straight before publishing .
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: frederica on August 07, 2007, 11:19:41 pm
Well, ir you remember, Steve W. came in stating his relative was supposably moonlighting as a "faithHealer", and was asking what could be done. At first was non-Indian, then a Cherokee plumber in Flordia, and before it was over was teaching in Texas with Al. Posted mostly disruptive things, asking if "Paula Horne was a White woman". And was jumping from thread to thread as ordinary trolls do when trying to disrupt. John Martin aka Tallsoldier and his affiliates are pretty well known. They really don't even require much research.  frederica
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: educatedindian on August 08, 2007, 04:17:37 am
I'm prety sure Brent will get a kick out of Lekay and Martin's paranoia, claiming to see him everywhere, just like I did when I found out Yeagley had repeatedly kicked out people from Sadbeagle forum he thought were me. If I know Brent, he'll find some way to turn the whole bit into some pretty good satire.

Lekay and Martin are as sloppy with their research as ever. I've known Moma P a bit longer than Brent.

Maybe because Yeagley routinely impersonates being numerous women on his website to give the impression of actually having any support from Native women, Martin now thinks everybody is a crossdresser online like Yeagley?
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Moma_porcupine on August 09, 2007, 01:21:25 pm
I'm glad you don't think BMD will be overly bothered by being accused of being some mouthy woman pretending to  be a porcupine in cyberspace . I am not sure how i would feel about it if someone did that to me ... 

Maybe when the people Lekay expects to dominate ( like maybe woman and Indians ) don't get dominated ,the only way he can accept it is is by thinking they aren't really a woman or an Indian . or educated . or there isn't so many of them , because they are really just a couple people pretending to be more .... LOL

One thing I noticed ,which I am sure John Lekay hasn't , and even some Indianz haven't , is the behavior of lost souls and exploiters that get discussed here , which Lekay seems so determined to bully us into accepting , just tends to make Native people more mistrustful and closed to people on the margins .

Below is some parts of a discussion of Lekay shutting down this message board on another message board ;
http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=7330 (http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=7330)

Istagi
Quote
And the new agers wonder why we are starting to no longer share with them.

( refering to Arvol Looking Horse )
Quote
this is the thanks he gets from those he has tried to help.


littleoldman2
 
Quote
have known that Wannabes Twinkeys neuage etc. have been looked at in a bad light. My friends and I have joked about them when we saw them at powwows. Always thought them benighn didn't take them seriously. Well this is one time that you will see me admit to being wrong. Reading the responces here has shown me just how much they are a problem and also how dangerious that they can be I understand now why you tend to jump first and ask question after.
Istagi
Quote
When you see some book learned twit get into an argument over spirital practice with a wicasa wakan over twice their age the amusement wears thin very fast. I have seen more than one supposed mellow newager get violent when told "no"

It is kind of ironic that Lekay keeps going on about how people who aren't enrolled have no buisness trying to deal with frauds .

The mistrust created by the sheer volume of people determined to have access to native culture on their own terms , tends to damage the reputation of unenrolled mixed blood people in general , maybe more than any other interest group . That Looking Horse proclamation that Lekay seems so fond of complaining about, only happened because of all the abuse that was going on . The people truely hurt by the measures that have had to be taken to protect tribal traditions aren't the people in Europe hoping to be a Sundancer .  It is the mixed blood , the unenrolled who ARE connected with the Native world but now not enough to be entirely trusted or included .  Even if a person "earns the trust of the tribe" there is still all that persons cousins and relatives who might not be trustworthy at all  . So it is a community issue not an individual one . Some native people who have the luxury of being well insulated by a strong native community might think this is no big deal , but when you repeatedly see mixed blood people who's family members went through the same brutality and forced assimilation , who are still struggling to come to terms with this , often with substance abuse issues and other baggae , seeing these people also having to cope with tribal people who have been terrorized by influxes of people determined to "have it all " without any respect for what is needed to maintain it all in a healthy way  - it really is too much . And I have seen this happen repeatedly .

The unenrolled , or urban mixed blood communities probably have to deal with the constant infiltration of
ignorance and exploitation  more than any other community , and it seems incredibly ignorant to imagine this is somthing that should only be dealt with by enrolled Indians . Because it isn't enrolled Indians who have this  constantly in their face , at their community functions , or in the lives of friends and family .

Sometimes people who live in a desert understand the importance of clean water more clearly than people who live beside a river or in a swamp . 
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Cetan on August 09, 2007, 07:55:03 pm
I do not have any personal knowlege however Suzanne Dupree's claim that the chanupa she carried was Frank Fool Crow's could be very easily checked - most of his grandchildren who cared for him and traveled with him are living today, including his eldest granddaughter in Pine Ridge Village, oldest grandsonby KILI butte and another is in Batesland
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: frederica on August 10, 2007, 01:57:03 am
That's a Lakota affair, they will manage it.   frederica
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: educatedindian on August 10, 2007, 04:05:07 am
From the Native student activist group in Tucson, Do No Harm, at their Yahoo group Debunking Debunkers Rule-

-----

My name is Tim Star. I'm Lakota and I've been interested in what NAFPS and this group does for quite a while, but I've never bothered to post. It really burns me that such an obvious faker can shut NDNs down.

Heyoka is a pretty slick Lefty publication that features several well known New Age Frauds. In my opinion, the look and style give it away as a pub by waanaabiiz for waanaabiiz.

It's got all the markers of a typical twinkie publication. There's appropriation of the Didgeridoo and lots of stuff about "Black Elk's vision" (well known twinkie marker) and he seems to think that if he throws in Noam Chomsky and a few pro environmentalist pieces with old time hippy favorites thrown in One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest, John Lennon etc to appeal to the boomers and make up for his shameful promotion of some very well known frauds.

Naturally, everything focuses on white guilt for the sins of the fathers and there's no current interviews with LEGITIMATE tribal leaders or information about OUR ISSUES - tribal sovereignty or current environmental/tribal struggles. (All the environmental issues are at least 20 years old except for the NYT articles that he posted directly to give his twinkie rag more credibility)

How the frauds love the past!

It really offends me how Natives are portrayed as subservient storytellers and spiritual guides who pine for the lost past and just want to help save the whiteman (from his own greed and self- destruction)

It's definitely intended for an upper middle class WHITE college educated audience. This is not a ForUsByUs kind of pub.

If the "featured Natives" weren't so offensive they'd be comical.

Red Elk is featured once in volume. He gets a loon of the month award for his hilarious work on google video:
(don't watch while drinking liquids)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8006120857467496974&q=red+elk&total=46&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=
search&plindex=0

RED ELK ON LIZARD PEOPLE AND EARTH CHANGES (Claims to be Cherokee,
Blackfeet and Shoshonee)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2279581220015470139&q=red+elk&total=46&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=
search&plindex=1

RED ELK: The search for Big Foot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgXHhHDpJv8

Here's Dan Asher doing something ridiculous with a drum by the fire
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.1.FOTOS.DAN%20ASHER.htm

Here's Jim Medicine Tree (alleged Cherokee Elder caretaker of the United Nations Turtle Pipe and the 200-year old Black Thunderbird Pipe, to help heal our drought-stricken land.)doing his twinkie thing in Australia.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.JimTree.Australia.htm

And Mala Spotted Eagle Pope who runs the Nanish Shontie scam in Washington is featured in the rag.

I wonder how much money he gets from advertising these guys?

I ran across one page is just plain offensive, I submitted it to blue
corn comics wall of shame http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.PANO.NA.WestBank.htm

the caption reads:
"Drawing a comparison between indigenous Native Americans whos land was stolen by European colonist-settlers, and indigenous Palestinians whose land continues to be stolen by European colonist-settlers, peace activists held a demonstration at a West Bank roadblock, dressed up as Native Americans in bid to get their message through to
visiting US secretary of state."
(email robschmidt@ to enter)

Then there's this bizarre interview with someone who is only identified as "Robin a respected Native Grandmother"

I mean, who talks like that? Real NDNs just don't talk like that.

The woman just spews out the usual specious rhetoric of the twinkie apologists and seems to be unable to grasp the concept that the FRAUDS bear the burden of proof and that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. She attempts to create a side issue by claiming that NAFPS members are not enrolled. She mostly just repeats the standard twinkie arguments in a rambling incoherent fashion. (Big surprise!)

There is apparently no standard of proof that would satisfy her and she tries to use the term "cut and paste" to disparage the research of the group. I don't know what this is about?

This guy is on some type of crusade to get Al back for exposing all his twinkie friends.

Check this out:
> > > ht tp://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.IsALCarrolAFraud.htm
> > > ht tp://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.JayeLaValle.Letter.htm

If these two pages don't expose LeKay as a nutcase I just don't know what will!

There's no proof anywhere in the rag that Red Elk, Mala Spotted Eagle Pope, "respected Lakota grandmother Robin", Dan Asher, William Under Baggage, John Martin, David "Sitting Owl" Littlejohn and Jim MedicineTree or that any of the other hang around the forts in the magazine are enrolled, yet LeKay makes Al's tribal ties an issue.

My question is Who is John Martin and why is he wearing sunglasses?

I'm tribally enrolled Lakota and I've never heard of these people!

The nuts just keep crawling out of the wood work and declaring themselves pipe carriers init?

It seems like the Crystal Skull people who started out in Washington State are all associated with this guy. Real Lakota are having a lot of trouble with this particular group of frauds. The stuff the peddle is just bizarre and no real NDN would ever mistake them for legit They all think they're pipe carriers

Tim
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: educatedindian on August 13, 2007, 05:55:04 am
Lekay gives up and does his best to put a spin on it. Forwarded message.

-----
Johnnie,

Can you please tell Al I removed everything off about him from heyoka.
All the articles. Interviews etc. Gone. I did this on my own
violation. No one asked me to do this. I think its best for everyone
concerned to end this. This is only causing more division and playing
into the hands of people who would want this to happen.

Its best to focus on the issues. environment, poverty, human rights,
 etc.

I made my point.

Best,

John LeKay

-----

His own violation. Interesting Freudian slip.

He also removed some of the slander of Looking Horse and posted a disclaimer.

I don't see any reason to remove anything we have in here. Unlike him we've always been entirely truthful.
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on August 14, 2007, 09:43:22 am
Some interesting comments here (http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/08/06/18439218.php?show_comments=1#comments). Thanks to everyone who stuck up for us, I know it can seem like climbing a mountain of garbage.
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on August 14, 2007, 09:15:48 pm
A further development: the Lackey has put the defamatory material on a new site. Not the most imaginative move. You've seen it all before if you've been following the story.

www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com

The site's IP address is 68.178.211.57, obtained by doing an "A record" lookup here (http://www.dnsstuff.com/) ("DNS Lookup" under "Hostname tools").

A whois lookup on this address gives us:

NetRange:   68.178.128.0 - 68.178.255.255
CIDR:       68.178.128.0/17
NetName:    GO-DADDY-SOFTWARE-INC
NetHandle:  NET-68-178-128-0-1
Parent:     NET-68-0-0-0-0
NetType:    Direct Allocation
NameServer: CNS1.SECURESERVER.NET
NameServer: CNS2.SECURESERVER.NET
NameServer: CNS3.SECURESERVER.NET
Comment:
RegDate:    2005-04-12
Updated:    2007-06-14

OrgAbuseHandle: ABUSE51-ARIN
OrgAbuseName:   Abuse Department
OrgAbusePhone:  +1-480-624-2505
OrgAbuseEmail:  abuse@godaddy.com



If you write to inform about that site's offensive material, do mention that it breaches their Universal Terms of Service, available here (https://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/agreements.asp?ci=8924).

Quote
5. NO UNLAWFUL CONDUCT OR IMPROPER USE.
[...]Morally objectionable activities will include, but not be limited to: activities designed to defame, embarrass, harm, abuse, threaten, slander or harass third parties;[...]/quote]
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Moma_porcupine on August 14, 2007, 11:39:19 pm
I see a couple people have mentioned John Martin is answering John Lekay's emails . What's up with that ?
Even my best friends don't answer my emails ...
    
Re: Our First "Official" Complaint
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 04:21:22 pm »
Johnnie
Quote
I sent an email to Lick Kay, and from an email address I don't use, and will only be good for another three days, and guess who sends an email to it?    John Martin, "Tall Solder."

( the comment below is found in the link posted by Barnaby in  reply 71 above . )

Friday Aug 10th, 2007 5:47 PM
by Marie
Quote
Mr. LeKay,
As you suggested, I attempted to contact John LeKay at info [at] heyokamagazine.com
(... continued )
I received an extremely irrational and abusive email from someone called John Martin.

For people who aren't familiar with who these people are and who they are affiliated with ;

John martin is also Tallsoldier77 ,
Below is a link to an article written by John Martin AKA Tallsoldier77 showing this is the same person ;

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/08/09/18439796.php (http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/08/09/18439796.php)
Quote
"TALLSOLDIER77
by John Martin
Thursday Aug 9th, 2007 8:40 PM"

Apparently Lekay seems to think that because John Martin is of Lakota descent he is an authoritive person on Spiritual matters. For people who would like to explore this assumption , here is a link to some of the topics Tallsodier77 has started at the indianz message board ,
-----------------------
edited Aug 16 because the link provided goes to a webpage that is constantly changing .   

I have to warn people these 3 links below contain descriptions of body parts doing things some people
may find offensive , derogatory comments aimed at particular minority groups , death threats and other seemingly contradictory and chaotic thought processes.

http://indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24774&whichpage=1 (http://indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24774&whichpage=1)

http://indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24048&whichpage=1 (http://indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24048&whichpage=1)

http://indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24706 (http://indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24706)
--------------------------

This is the same tallsoldier77 who frequently posts on David Yeagley's badeagle message board ;

http://www.badeagle.com/cgi-bin/ib3/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=522cd00a62dd008611dcb24c5d5a400a;act=ST
;f=53;t=6651;st=30 (http://www.badeagle.com/cgi-bin/ib3/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=522cd00a62dd008611dcb24c5d5a400a;act=ST
;f=53;t=6651;st=30)
tallsoldier77
Posted: Nov. 26 2006,9:46    

Quote
"All I am saying is that the self-proclaimed "Fraud-hunter" posts some of the most slanderous and blatant lies I have ever seen, since I joined this forum.

He calls Dr. Yeagley every name in the book. He says that BE.com is a neo-nazi/white supremacist stronghold, I have never seen any post here that supported or re-affirmed the white separatists movement."

It is a bit hard to understand why even an ignorant person ,who was wanting to support Native rights , would criticize Al Carroll but defend  Yeagley , when Yeagley says things like ;

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13399 (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13399)
Quoting Yeagley
Quote
"I was invited to speak to leaders of Citizens Equal Rights Alliance, United Property Owners, Upstate Citizens for Equality, and One Nation. These organizations represent over a quarter of a million Americans citizens who have personally lost money, property, business, and basic civil rights as the result of aggressions by the Indian casino industry. (Not to mention the income counties and states lose to tax-exempt "Indian" casino business.)"

Quote
"It's their people that created America, not Indians. Only a diabolically self-righteous liberal politician would take America out of the hands that created it, and give it to those who either lost it, or never had anything to do with it."

http://www.badeagle.com/html/arent_pales.html (http://www.badeagle.com/html/arent_pales.html)
Quoting David Yeagley
"
Quote
As a Comanche Indian, I'm sensitive to this history. I believe the conqueror has a right to what he has conquered. No one  owns the land. Only he who is strong enough to possess it will control it and the people living on it. That's the law of war
."

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=273 (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=273)
What's Up With Dark Men?     
By David Yeagley
FrontPageMagazine.com | 2/26/2002

Quote
"Superior beauty is in the white race, with its scintillating varieties of color: red, brown, amber, golden hair... green, blue, light brown, gray eyes. In the darker races, everything is always the same, dark brown and black a beastly bore."

Quote
"These days the white woman is expected to humble herself before the darkie."

"
Quote
But Hitler was wrong in Mein Kamf (1925), when he accuses the Jewish male of a racial plot. When "the black-haired Jewish  youth" finds himself sexually attracted to the fair Aryan maiden, there is no "clear aim of ruining the hated white race" through intermarriage. The Jew himself would breed out, for he is a small minority.

But the masses of darker races don't fear extinction, because they are the vast majority. The white race is the world's minority.

Its Judeo-Christian religion allowed the European Caucasian race to advance above all other people; but the darker races now encroach through integration and intermarriage, in the name of equality and diversity.

Pat Buchanan says that there's something wrong with a race that doesn't care whether it exists or not. In his new book, The Death of The West, he refers to my article, "What's Up With White Women," in which I write about a white girl who has no pride in her race or its accomplishments.

There are dark people who look forward to the end of "whitey."

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/04/korean_actress.php (http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/04/korean_actress.php)
Korean Actress Exposed , Quoting David Yeagley
"
Quote
Mixed raced people can't help what they are. Their's is no fault. But there is no need to repeat the same, or to advocate  more, or to idolize such a condition by perpetuating it. When you realize you're on a wrong path, even if you didn't put yourself on it, the only dignified thing to do is to get back on the right path.
"

( Quoting from Lekay's first comment found in the link Barnaby posted in reply 71 )
John Lekay
Quote
John Martin is a full blood Lakota and not a white supremacist, (con... here i have deleted some questionable accusations about an internet link that BMD posted which is a side issue )

As far as I know, David Yeagley is a Comanche and a musician who has been under attack by Al Carroll and Brent Michel Davids for years and is not a white supremacist either.

How can John Lekay be so oblivious to who he supports and gets support from , and how these people are affecting the recognition of Native rights and the health of Native communities ?

I can't see how anyone can avoid wondering who these people are . Why are they are so opposed to the
people who are dedicated to supporting the Native Elders who are recognized as such by their community, and are trying to protect the the long term health of their culture ?

Sorry to keep posting so many long posts ... I keep meaning to stop ...   And then something else comes up ..
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on August 15, 2007, 08:09:37 am
I was drinking a cup of tea when I saw Yeagley described on Lekay's site as 'not a white supremacist'. Tea came out of my nose.

John Martin is the nut who phoned Al's elderly parents to threaten them, and more recently together with the Lackey has been trolling on this forum under the name "Steve Williams".
Title: Re: disturbing? Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay
Post by: frederica on August 16, 2007, 04:58:52 am
Well. Yeagley has been on the talk circuit with Barbara Lindsey who is or was head of One Nation United (anti-NDN sovereignty) backed by Gas, Oil and Convenience Stores. They were on the SoutherN Poverty Law Center watch list at one time. Martin is one of his cronies. If they are not, I don't know how you would classify them, and they are sure hanging with the wrong folks. frederica