NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Needs More Caffeine on June 30, 2009, 12:46:40 am
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Saw this in the Indianapolis Indian Center's newsletter. The webpage listed for this event is:
http://www.myspace.com/fireandlightninglodge
I know or know of a few of the people involved with this and don't have a good feeling about it. None of those I know personally are DLN...a few are Native, but were raised out of their tradition and never reconnected, but most seem to be white or claim to be PODIA. The leader (who was brought up in the Steve McCullough thread) is Lakota and claims to be a chief, name is Evans White Face.
Not my tradition, so would any of the DLN folks be kind enough to tell me if it's acceptable for sundances to be held off your lands like this? I just don't get a good feeling about this event (I guess I don't get why something that seems, from my outside perspective, to be specific to a native homeland would be done on other nations' homeland), but it's not my tribal tradition so I wanted to ask rather than just tell people it seemed sketchy. I do get a lot of questions about it and would like something concrete to share with others about this event's appropriacy rather than just my feeling.
Thanks for any info!
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I have met Evans many years ago, he is Vernal Cross' cousin. He was made chief over at Paradise last year yet he is Oglala?? I have never heard or seen anything good about off rez Sundances and many Laokota I know do not condone them. Who elso is involved? and do any of the Indiana AIM folks know about this?
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I ran into Chief White Face many times last summer. The first he drew my "attention" was when he requested a blanket dance for The Longest Walk. He was introduced to the crowd as Chief White Face. He handed me a business card (plain paper, not card stock) that says "Oglala Lakota Sioux Tribe" and the card does not say Chief. The location on the myspace page matches. Most people in these parts refer to him as "Uncle Evans." He seems to run with another person mentioned in the Frauds section here ... and it seems they are "drinkin' buddies." I like this man, but last summer it just didn't "feel" right. You know ... numerous small things that add up to negatives. Does 5 + 2 = 8?
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Evans White face was made a chief by L. Crow Dog, and did have his first sundance at his property this summer. I did attend and thought it was being done in a good and respectful way. it was small but the prayer was strong.
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Evans White face was made a chief by L. Crow Dog, and did have his first sundance at his property this summer. I did attend and thought it was being done in a good and respectful way. it was small but the prayer was strong.
I dont know this White Face guy, but I understand Crow Dog will adopt about anybody and give them "powers" to hold ceremonies.
I am not Lakota, Nakota, Dakota or of any other of the Sioux Nations, sundance is not of my people, I have never been to one nor do I plan to go to one... but of all the things I dont know, I do know this, the Elders look strongly down upon nons being involved and holding their own "sundances" This ceremony does not belong to nons.
Regardless if a person is Indian or a non, it is wrong to take sacred ceremonies and sell them... it is wrong and disrespectful. For as long as I can remember hearing of the sundance, it has always been held within the proper Nations, it was not a traveling show... a person who was not of the tribes could only be there if invited. These sacred ceremonies are being taken too lightly...
The sweats, oh how people began their own sweats, charging for a sweat lodge, people like Charles Chipps going around and selling sweats, adopting about everyone who gave him money... teaching people how to do sweats... It is wrong..
Not all that long ago, a non had a sweat ceremony, he too charged, said he was taught and given permission to hold the sweats, but he did it wrong, and two people died... No one will remember that the person holding the sweat was a non Indian, they will only remember that it was supposed to have been a Indian sweat that killed those people..
How many people have died from ceremonies gone wrong? Well lets take a look:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/11/04/1099362283876.html?from=storylhs
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/06/27/BA212763.DTL
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/2009/02/19/lodge-death.html
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I know who you are keely, but the rant you put out there on "non's" is absurd when it comes to Evans. He is a full blood and a good man that is erying to have a place where all can come to pray.
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Evans is a full blood Oglala Lakota but wonder why is he running a Sundance in Indiana instead of back home on the rez. And does he allow non NDN to dance?
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I know who you are keely, but the rant you put out there on "non's" is absurd when it comes to Evans. He is a full blood and a good man that is erying to have a place where all can come to pray.
Full blood or no blood, it is not acceptable to the Elders of the tribes when this kind of thing is done. Non's should never be allowed to attend or partake in sacred ceremonies.
There are plenty of full bloods out there selling out their culture. They will do anything for money.. they do not have tribal approval to do what they are doing.
I dont know Evans, and dont care to know anyone who is selling out his people, to me, they are worse than than the full blown fraud.
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Keely, I would have to disaagree with you on that - I know some Lakota elders who do allow non's to participate, including some well respected chiefs and elders. These ceremonies are on the rez where many from the community are present and participating and watching. they are not selling out their cuture
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Keely, I would have to disaagree with you on that - I know some Lakota elders who do allow non's to participate, including some well respected chiefs and elders. These ceremonies are on the rez where many from the community are present and participating and watching. they are not selling out their cuture
The nons who are allowed are well respected people, known by the Elders and people of the tribe, who have earned respect. Yes Cetan, you are totally correct... The ones I am talking about are these people who are out making these sundances up, selling tickets to be part of it, they are selling out their culture. The Elders do not approve of that.
I did a bit of looking around about this White Face person, whom I understand was "appointed to chief" by Leonard Crow Dog, of which Leonard does not carry that authority to appoint someone to be "chief" of the Lakota... I do understand that saltcreeker claims White Fave is full blood, but from other things I have seen posted, he is not Indian at all... I am going to try and find a picture of this guy, a full blood Lakota does not look white.
This issue is not the top of my priority list at the time.. I have a few other things I am working on for other people and will try to get to this in time, but would like to see any evidence that this guy is Indian or if he is white..
Anyone who has been around, knows that Leonard will adopt about anyone at any time.. his name is used all the time to "verify" one persons "Indianess" and that is no proof at all...
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I personally met Evan White Face many years ago, through friends and then at Vernal Cross' funeral. Evans is a full blood (or at least pretty darn close to full blood) and was Vernal's cousin. Leonard usually doesnt adopt people, he just makes them "chief". That Evans is a Lakota is not in doubt at all, my only question is why have a Sundance so far from home when there are plenty of dances right on the rez.
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Not much online for Evans White Face or the Fire and Lightening Lodge.
Googling Evans White Face . . .
Native Gatherings
http://www.nativegatherings.com/events/index.php?com=detail&eID=10912
Sundance Meeting
Aho! Greetings to all, I have been requested to write to you all from the people of the Fire and Lightning Lodge and Chief Evans White Face, to inform you of some exciting news! After a wonderful visit from Chief Leonard Crow Dog this past weekend here in Indiana, we were told of the need to start a new Tribal and Federally Recognized Lakota Sundance here in the state of Indiana this year. We were instructed that this is to be a community effort among the people and the need for us to work together to bring our hearts and the people together for this sundance.
We are inviting those that might be interested in this dance to a meeting which Chief Leonard Crow Dog and Chief Evans White Face will be sponsoring. This meeting is set for Saturday, February 14th, 2009 at the property of First Lady April and Chief Evans White Face at Williams, Indiana, South of Bedford. Everyone is welcomed and encouraged to attend. Those that are interested in dancing, supporting or volunteering, attendance at this most important meeting is a must as many decisions will be made. Although August is being looked at as a possible month for the dance nothing has been decided yet and this is why the input of the people is crucial. Since this is a dance for the people we need to hear your thoughts and ideas on making this the best dance possible.
After the meeting there will be sweats and ceremony. There also will be a feast held and those in attendance are requested to bring a covered dish. It also would be most appreciated for those that can to bring some table service and paper products. Wood is also in great need as we not only use it for the sweats but also in heating the round house.
Those interested may contact Chief White Face at fireandlightninglodge@yahoo.com or 812-388-6763 for further information.
Pilamaya, Mary D.
Please forward this to all those that may be interested.
Saturday the 14th of February 2009 [ All Events This Day ]
This is an All Day Event
Location Williams, Indiana
and a thread on Indianz.com
http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37656
Googling Fire and Lightening Lodge . . .
Myspace http://www.myspace.com/fireandlightninglodge
There are a few pictures on the myspace, but no captions or descriptions. It's impossible to know who is who, unless you already know these people.
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I wonder who "first lady" April is; when I knew him his wife was a Dine woman named Deanna (or something like that). I also wonder about Sundances that advertise on public internet sites.
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I personally met Evan White Face many years ago, through friends and then at Vernal Cross' funeral. Evans is a full blood (or at least pretty darn close to full blood) and was Vernal's cousin. Leonard usually doesnt adopt people, he just makes them "chief". That Evans is a Lakota is not in doubt at all, my only question is why have a Sundance so far from home when there are plenty of dances right on the rez.
Thats a darn shame then.. seems he acts like a whiteman..
Oh yeah, Leonard does make anyone his "cousin" and there are people who throw that out all over the web.. he is as bad as Charles Chips when it comes to making all those family members... On a personal basis, I like Charles, I just dont like what he does, he sells sweats, and he goes to places like Germany to sell it to them too.. and yes, he gets paid very well to do so..
Someone once commented to me that Jack Anquoe was doing that as well, however, I have known Jack most of my life and I have never known him to sell any ceremony... He did travel to France to give prayers to our Indian men who are burried there from WWII, one is my Uncle... I am glad Jack did that before he passed away...
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Why does there have to be so much anger in some of the posts around here when it seems the angriest are from people that don't know the people that they're angry about? Seems strange to me, and it makes me sad.
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Why does there have to be so much anger in some of the posts around here when it seems the angriest are from people that don't know the people that they're angry about? Seems strange to me, and it makes me sad.
I am not angry... I know Charles Chipps and I know what he does, I like him as a person but I dont agree with him selling out his culture.
The same goes for Leonard....
I dont know the White Face guy, and dont approve of him being called "chief"
I dont approve of ceremonies being taken far from the people they belong to.
I dont approve of taking money for ceremony.
yes there are issues that do many me angry... but this has not been one of them :)
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There is not anger here, just questionng. Since Evans is a full blood, if he has had the vision he has the right to run a Sundance, I just question why not back home. And it is true that many like Charles Chipps and Leonard Crow Dog do questionable things, the best quote I ever heard about Leonard is "he is a good medicine man but a bad man". And my knowlege of him comes from close friends who are related to Leonard and used to hang with him back in the day.
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There is not anger here, just questionng. Since Evans is a full blood, if he has had the vision he has the right to run a Sundance, I just question why not back home. And it is true that many like Charles Chipps and Leonard Crow Dog do questionable things, the best quote I ever heard about Leonard is "he is a good medicine man but a bad man". And my knowlege of him comes from close friends who are related to Leonard and used to hang with him back in the day.
Cetan, I agree with you for the most part. However, it's not my belief that either of these men are "bad." Alcohol will lead many a good person astray. It is a HUGE affliction of our people. It doesn't matter if you're red, white, black, purple or green ... the bondage of alcohol is deadly ... and maybe more so if you're native. Alcohol impedes the ability to make good choices and use good judgment ... and that's putting it mildly.
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So are you saying that these two men drink?
I also know both of them and would agree
good medicine man but bad men.
They have caused disgraced to our people.
Back to the reason of the post, no sundance should
be done in area where there are no lakota/dakota
people, second no white/black or yellows should be allowed in the dances
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So are you saying that these two men drink?
I also know both of them and would agree
good medicine man but bad men.
They have caused disgraced to our people.
Back to the reason of the post, no sundance should
be done in area where there are no lakota/dakota
people, second no white/black or yellows should be allowed in the dances
I am sorry this is happening to your people earth..
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Charles Chipps and his family have been mentioned a number of times on here. Here are some of the threads:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1453
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1026.msg14626#msg14626
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=574.msg2928#msg2928
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1245.msg13646#msg13646
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Charles Chipps and his family have been mentioned a number of times on here. Here are some of the threads:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1453
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1026.msg14626#msg14626
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=574.msg2928#msg2928
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1245.msg13646#msg13646
Thanks... I met Charles many years ago, I was introduced to him by a woman who lived across the street from me, she claimed that she was Oglala, and her Uncle was Charles Chipps. Later, Charles asked me if I knew how he and this woman knew each other, I said "Sure, your her uncle" he laughed, said no, that he used to date her, he said "She aint even Indian!" I felt bad because I thought she was my friend, and a friend wouldnt lie.. ha did I have a lot to learn!
Charles bragged to me about how much money he made doing sweats and sundances, I was mortified at the idea, I had never heard of doing such a thing, the year was 1989 and I had not heard of the world wide web.. Charles asked me if I wanted to help him do some stuff in Germany... Germay!? I told him in no way would I do such, I did not wish to bring bad jeu-jeues to my family. Well Charles helped the woman across the street from me put up a sweat lodge where she had mixed sex sweats, she asked me to come, and I flat out said NO! You dont mix sweats like that! She laughed... I told her it was bad...
Since then. Charles has lost a brother in a car accident, and his niece in a car accident, I hear a couple of other family members died early but I dont know, the woman who had the mixed sweats died, yes.. bd things are happening.. and I stay far away...
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Godfrey and other members of his family came to New England in the early nineties (or late '80s? I'm not sure of the date as I only heard about this after the fact). They did yuwipi and inipi ceremonies for groups of non-Natives, and invited some of the nons to come back to Pine Ridge with them for sundance season. A (white) member of my extended family and her girlfriend went with them. They lived with Godfrey and Charles' family for a summer on Pine Ridge and attended a number of ceremonies. There are details of what went on there that are relevant, and confirm what other critics have said, but I feel it's her story to tell, not mine.
I also know of frauds operating in the Pacific Northwest - white people who run fake inipis - who say they were taught by the Chipps family.
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I wonder who "first lady" April is; when I knew him his wife was a Dine woman named Deanna (or something like that). I also wonder about Sundances that advertise on public internet sites.
They are not yet married. His former wife was Dianna. She left him and moved away.
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I just read that he passed away last month http://bennettcountyboostersd.com/obituaries/2501-white-face-matthew