NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Ganieda on January 31, 2008, 08:24:50 am
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I have these recordings and I love to listen to them. I do NOT use them in any way other than to get pleasure from the voices, rythms and deep reverence evident in the recordings. I would like to ask.... do you feel that making these recordings was wrong?
In the early 1980s, two men stepped into a studio at Sinte Gleska College and shared a group of sacred songs. The Lakota Ceremonial Songs were performed by John Around Him and translated by Albert White Hat Senior. The recordings were made in order to help teach others who want to bring the spiritual practices back to all of the people. While this music is preserved on tape, many of the elders like John Around Him are being lost. After a battle with cancer, Around Him passed away. John Around Him had a dream that all Lakota youth would be able to freely learn and speak their language.
The prayer songs in this record are treasured by the Lakota people who sing them with respect and love. It is believed if an individual uses these songs with faith of heart and mind, he or she will receive help from the spirits.
Includes Pipe Songs, Purification Ceremony Songs, Vision Quest Songs and Sun Dance Songs.
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I know the tapes and had a talk with John Around Him years ago about it.
he said that the college wanted to tape record him for student at the college
and he agreed. Someone took the tapes an sold to they became public.
It happens over and over again in Indian Country.
John never got a penny for the tapes.
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Someone took the tapes an sold to they became public.
It happens over and over again in Indian Country. John never got a penny for the tapes.
So it sounds to me like these songs were never meant to be heard by outsiders, and certainly not as entertainment.
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John never got a penny for the tapes
I am sorry to hear that these recordings were, in effect, "stolen".
certainly not as entertainment.
I do not use them for entertainment, as I stated, I listen to them for the "pleasure from the voices, rythms and deep reverence evident in the recordings". Also, "It is believed if an individual uses these songs with faith of heart and mind, he or she will receive help from the spirits." I have not used these recordings in this respect, but I think that if I did the spirits would not deny me the help I might seek.
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See what I mean about people wanting to use our culture.
First they must understand the words then understand the meaning
then to have done in the order that they would be done.
I can only see trouble with people not understand what they do.
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It's just another form of "selling ceremonies" and stealing culture that does not belong to them. Nauseating. Some knucklehead will be misusing them in no time.
Rich
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See what I mean about people wanting to use our culture.
Yes, I see. I did not know that they were "stolen". I understood them to be "made in order to help teach others who want to bring the spiritual practices back to all of the people." As I said...I do not "use" them, but listening to them does invoke a sense of peace for me. Is that really so wrong? As long as I have respect for them?
Some knucklehead will be misusing them in no time
Yes, and that person will no doubt have to answer for his actions.
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As I said...I do not "use" them, but listening to them does invoke a sense of peace for me. Is that really so wrong? As long as I have respect for them?
No, your not misusing them. But somebody else will. I'll bet my paycheck on it. ( Not that it's much. I manage a farm.). Which made it wrong to be released from the get-go.
Peace- Rich
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As I said...I do not "use" them, but listening to them does invoke a sense of peace for me. Is that really so wrong? As long as I have respect for them?
how can any one who does not know what is said in the songs
even get any thing but confused
just because a song sounds peaceful does not teach a thing
just like the drums doing songs that they have no idea ,when the song is to be done
what the song is for, who the song is for,and because they do not under stand the lanauge they most likley mispronounce and even affend the people who know the song for real
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just because a song sounds peaceful does not teach a thing
Your'e right. But I'm not listening to them to learn anything other than the beauty of the voices and the rythm. because they do not under stand the lanauge they most likley mispronounce and even affend the people who know the song for real
Right again, but I'm not singing along or even trying to learn the words. I have faith that the words were done correctly and simply listen to them. That is all.
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whatever!
This why we have so much abuse in Indian country
even when many of our things are stolen people
feel they have a right to them taken away the
reason why they are sung.
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I have not taken away anything. If something is stolen, it means that the person from whom it was taken, doesn't have it anymore. That's not the case here, the music is still where it belongs. If the people still use the music and words with respect and in traditional ways, then nothing is lost. Music itself, and rythm, are universal languages understood by everyone.
I hear it often said that non-Natives should learn more about Natives so they can understand better. But that knowledge is repeatedly denied to us. Many therefore, seek knowledge from unscrupulous fakes and frauds. It's kind of a catch-22 situation.
In my view, knowledge is like a candle. You light it.... then use that flame to light another and another and so on. The flame from that first candle is never diminished, however the more candles that are lit the brighter the light becomes. If you don't light more candles the flame will eventually go out.
Now, I'm not saying that ALL Native American knowledge be shared. There are some things that should remain within it's own culture and context. And the same can be said about many other cultures and beliefs. But it is also sadly true that, whenever an elder dies, we loose a library.
It is also known that in "pre-Columbian" times the cultures and beliefs of many Native Nations melded, grew, evolved, changed. In post-Columbian times Catholicism and other forms of Christianity were introduced and many Nations ebraced those beliefs, changing even more of the "traditions".
I guess I just wonder sometimes, why it is okay for Native peoples to accept, embrace and use (and change & mis-use) so-called European Christianity, but it not okay for non-Native people to want to learn from Native cultures.
Now, going back to the tapes.... would it be better for non-Natives to listen to contemporary NA artists and their music? Much of that embraces the romantized notions of NA's that you so want to dispel.
And then, there is the ubiquitous "Amazing Grace" that almost every NA artist seems to feel obligated to translate into their own language and put on at least one album. Some go so far as to claim that it has "become the Cherokee National Anthem" (Appropriation?)
Personally I feel that Native people can sing any so-called non-Native song they wish, they can repeat the words of the "Apostles Creed" or the "Wiccan Rede". Matters not to me. I'm not the judge of whether or not they are being used respecfully. That lies in the heart of the user.
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When it come to that nasty christainity it was forced on us by rape, molestation, injured, death, they brought us destruction. They force the ideal on us, so today some of people turn away their back to our traditions.
They forbid our beliefs, songs and dances in 1885 and it was not until 1979, when the United States gaves us limited freedom of religion.
My PEOPLE DIED TO SING THOSE SONG! ARE YOU WILLING TO DIE TO KEEP THEM?
Do you pray for that the family of the John Around Him who is singing those song and his family is warm and feed. John has now left this world an it is shame that this has happen to him.
Today after only 28 years ONLY we are now fight to protect what little we have as the so-called non-indian think that it is Ok to steal our belief because Christian steal everything right. It is there culture to take and take some more and think it is OK!
I don't know nothing about those wicca people. I don't want to know not my way not my belief system.
We have suffered under this damn christian rule for 500 years years in the United States. we do have people that have been so brain washed yes, they still follow christianity.
Those of us who have come back to our traditions fight each day to keep it alive while we defending our ways.
What is the belief of white privledge that they can come to any culture because it is their right for our culture to save them while they destroy the world around them.
Then people come to us and tell us they should be able to find peace in my culture while their government is still killing my people,
I want to say right up front I am sorry, but it hurt so much to have deal with the these people who think they have some right to my culture.
I don't want to save anyone outside my people, All I want to be able to pray without being afraid of who will steal/use/abuse what is sacred.
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Yes, I understand what you say. The history of abuse is deplorable. But I do have this to say. I wasn't there, I did not do it....and neither did any of my ancestors. If I had it in my power I would change it. To blame ALL non-Natives is wrong. Do I pray for things to be better? Ya, you can bet that I do. And, BTW, I am not Christian nor am I Wiccan. My point in using the "Apostles Creed" and the "Wiccan Rede", as examples, was this
"I'm not the judge of whether or not they are being used respectfully. That lies in the heart of the user."
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Gee Ganieda, you really don't sound like are hearing what is being said. Why did you ask the question in the first place .... to agrue with people who say it hurts them to see those songs used like that?
I don't know about the songs that are being discussed here, but I do know that in many traditions the songs are really important. They have a deep history and often there is very strict protcols around when they can be sung.
If something has deep meaning to someone, and someone uses this in a way that doesn't recognize that meaning, it can feel like a really horrible desecration.
There is no way a non Lakota person can recognize that meaning.
Imagine if you had a photograph one of the most special moments of your life, that was taken of you with a loved one, who gave it to you before they passed on, and this is one of the few things you had to remind you of that person. Then imagine one day you found out a copy of that picture was being used to advertise McDonalds hamburgers, a beer commercial, or something else that really doesn't fit with all the values of what that picture means to you. If you imagine that maybe you will understand a bit of how it feels.
Sure you still have your photograph....Nothing was taken...but....
And then how would you feel when the person who is using it in this way just wants to agrue with you about how you feel about that?
And what do you imagine listening to traditional songs stripped of all cultural context gives back to Lakota culture?
I know I've seen Elders get upset to hear songs that have been recorded being played on somenes car stero system, even when everyone involved is Native, so I think there is some traditions around this that are being violated, and it isn't just people giving you a hard time, because you aren't Lakota. So the whole agruement of "why can't ndns just be nice and share like we share Christianity with them" kind of falls apart . Even in Christianity if someone from another culture joins the Church ( and doesn't have it forced on them as happened to mosyt Native people ) these other cultures are expected to conform to the Christian way of doing things. They aren't free to show up for Mass and walk out with the bottle of wine and the crackers.
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He made the recordings for the University to be used for teaching. They were taken and made commerical. And that what seems to always happen. There was no premission give for that. Many Ndns are now Christian, and they sing Christian songs. I doubt if that is appropiation. It's part of their religion. I know a Choctaw man that is a Christian minister, not sure which. But his wish was to have Bibles in the Choctaw language. It's not appropiation it trying to save the language. That's not commerical. Most of the theft goes commerical, everything from recordings, ceremonies, or like the so-called knock off"medicine bags, sacred bundles".
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Ganeida, you've just brought the possible end of your time on this forum a lot closer. If you're not interested in opinions you don't like, why ask? It's clear you should not be listening to this recording. You will leave this forum sooner rather than later unless you learn to respect Native people.
You mentioned spirits: has it occurred to you that they might not like being messed around by ignorant people? I think you should be asking how you can return your copy of the recording to Lakota people, for whom it was intended.
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You mentioned spirits: has it occurred to you that they might not like being messed around by ignorant people? I think you should be asking how you can return your copy of the recording to Lakota people, for whom it was intended.
That is the most wisest suggestion on this thread and a excellent idea.
It is a shame there is not a clause in NAGRPA that says a AIM Akicita can confiscate this stuff and return it or destroy it. I would enjoy torching a big pile of fake pipes, dream catchers and medicine bags while standing around the bonfire listening to Deep Purple and sucking down a few Tecates
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Yes, I understand what you say. The history of abuse is deplorable. But I do have this to say. I wasn't there, I did not do it....and neither did any of my ancestors. If I had it in my power I would change it. To blame ALL non-Natives is wrong. Do I pray for things to be better? Ya, you can bet that I do. And, BTW, I am not Christian nor am I Wiccan. My point in using the "Apostles Creed" and the "Wiccan Rede", as examples, was this "I'm not the judge of whether or not they are being used respectfully. That lies in the heart of the user."
Ganieda what you don't understand is that you are one of the abusier right now. What I have been saying is happening today. The government today is still killing Indians.
For me I am forbidden to sing the song unless I am in prayer and I can not sing them around women who might be on the monthly time or anyone who has been drinking or doing drugs or in a bad frame of mind.
We are taught that these must not be used in the general public and each time they are sung it is a prayer. I wonder why a person outside my culture has more rights to listen to our songs any time they want. When we are only allow at certain time.
How is this kind of belief help our young people learning their culture?
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Let me bring up something by way of comparison. Annika was given an eagle feather a few years ago. She felt it would be wrong to hold onto it and asked everyone's advice in here. Finally she gave it to Arvol Looking Horse. (Thus the film, Spirits For Sale.)
I also remember meeting an anthro over there in Sweden who spent quite a bit of time pushing a museum to repatriate a totem pole the museum had. It was a refreshing change in attitude compared to many (but not all) American anthros.
Another thing, I know there are some lit professors who no longer teach about certain Native stories at certain times of the year because traditionally you are only supposed to hear them during certain seasons. They don't want to take them out of their context.
Ganeida, why not look into giving the recordings to the right people?
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What would be the cost for us, non-Natives, to give up buying ceremonies or give up playing around with sacred items? Well, you might say it takes something out of our lives, i e the feeling of being "special". And we might loose the social part of it, belonging to a group - and probably worshipping a "guru". That is the price we have to pay. Compare that to the price indigenous peoples all over the world have paid to protect their cultures.....
Non-Natives who claim to get closer to the spirits by using "Native American spirituality" have probably never given up something sacred, something they value deeply, to do the right thing: to give it back where it belongs. That act in itself is 10 times as spiritual as any faked ceremonies. There were pipes and eaglefeathers being handed back to Arvol when he was over here in Sweden, some people cried when they handed over them. Not because they lost something valuable, not because they had to give up their "job" as a shaman, but because the feeling of doing a spiritual thing was stronger than anything they had ever experienced before.
What would be the cost of giving up a CD?
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There are times when somethings just do not need to be put on a board. When I find myself in such a delima I go to one of the people from whom I can obtain a well considered answer. I have developed over the years a network of friends, acquaintances, and yes even elders of several Tribes and cultures it is to them that I go for counsel. I then quietly without fanfare take care of what ever I it is that I need to. This is a good site for research and warning to those who watch. By being for warned we can sometimes even lend a hand to stop the abuse. Remember we need to guard the culture and share only with permission. LaDonna's walk is a Lakota's walk not a Cherokee walk or Senaca walk. My walk is one of a Christian and while I may not be able to share the walk of a Lakota or even agree with their view on some things I will support and fight to my last breath their right to their culture and ceremony. Creator put them here for a reason and gave them there culture. Who am I to second guess God. I am as all ways "LittleOldMan"
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I left this thread in frustration, but came back today to make a point that I now see, with gratitude, has been made by others.
I also believe that the most spiritual act that can be done with these recordings, the only act that will bring the "peace and blessings of the spirits", is to give the recordings and all profits made from them back to the family of John Around Him. If for any reason his family are not the most appropriate people to take care of this (I'm not part of his community so I wouldn't know the particulars), I think the recordings and profits should be given to the traditional Lakota elders in his community who are carrying on the traditions he wanted preserved. I believe this is the only "spiritual" thing to do in this situation.
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I want to thank you all for understanding what I am saying
Moma Porcupine, frederica, Barnaby_McEwan, Al, Freija, LittleOldMan and Kathryn I want to say how good this makes me feel because I try to explain and people just don't understand.
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Thank you, Earth, for staying here and speaking up, even though this can be a very frustrating place sometimes. I very much appreciate your presence here, and thank you for your words and your wisdom.
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Thank you Earth I do understand. I think. Those of us who are comfortable within our own cultures do not need to borrow from others. We need to understand how to appreciate when we are invited to share as well as understand and not be offended when we are not. "LittleOldMan"
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I have been thinking about this. I have two examples I hope that Ganeida will think on. Ganeida, you say that it wasn't you who did those things/stole those songs. That is correct. However, what if you bought a car and you really really liked that car. It gave you great pleasure to drive it. Then you discovered that you had bought a STOLEN car. Would you still argue that you should be able to keep it? By law, even though you are innocent of stealing, the car is still stolen and you still have to return it. Second example: Someone took land from force, say 100 years ago. They and their descendants benefited from that land and it's resources. Now the descendent says "Well, I did not steal that land so why are the dexcendants of the origional owners angry with me? I am innocent." But morally, are they? They benefitted from THEFT.
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Mr. McEwan
If you're not interested in opinions you don't like, why ask? It's clear you should not be listening to this recording.
I asked because I truly want to try to understand. Unfortunately I am of a different culture so it is very difficult for me to understand. At least the first few answers were. They were sort of worded "because" and I just didn't understand "because". Plus one person did answer "No, your not misusing them."
So I was a little confused on the issue. Now, finally, I have some examples that I can actually relate to and I can understand better how you feel. I appreciate your clarification... and your patience with my "ignorance". I know, I don't live your "life-way", so understanding it is very difficult. I'm doing my best and learning as I go.
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Thanks, Earth. You know, a lot of people do understand. Unfortunately, the voices of the exploiters seem so much louder than other voices. Maybe because they argue so much about their rights.....
Personally, I think being involved with Native Americans as a non-Native gives you a fantastic opportunity to find out what kind of person you are. Because you will always be presented with opportunities to make money or to boost your ego. A Native guy in Canada gave me a videotape some years ago, I looked at it when I got back home and it was a videotape of a Sundance !!! Oh my Gawd! They had filmed just about everything...... Well, he wanted me to sell it in Europe and we would go on tour together. I sent it back straight away. Guess, I could have made some good money there. But could I have lived with myself afterwards?! Never!
I agree with Debbie, it doesn´t matter who stole what - it is a matter of respect for the rightful owners.
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You know Freija seening something like that would hurt because all the prayers of those people would be forgot. We know that the Great Mystery is listening to us but by stealing those prayers you take something so important to us the lives of our people.
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I have this to say- you stated that you listen to it because it brings you peace and you are respectful of songs. that is not misusing it.
Now, we bring in intent. the tape was made to preserve the songs and language in a way that the young people would be able to learn them, and keep them alive. it was not the intent of making them to bring anyone who listens to them peace, but to teach, and preserve. using them in any other way is misuse.
using certain drugs to treat ailments, or pain is fine, but using them just to get high, is misuse(not a good analogy i know), not only do we call it misuse, but it is officially called drug abuse. the abuse comes from using them for other than their intended purpose. In this case, using the tape is not not abuse, using the tape for a purpose other than it was intended, is abuse. in this case, spiritual and cultural abuse of a people.
there is some wonderful music that is calming and relaxing that are freely available. perhaps you should get one of those. and mail the tape you have back to one of the people it was intended for.
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Matt, I think this whole post is a good analogy !!!!!! Hopefully it gets the point across easier.
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I think the point is the tapes were taken without permission. That starts a whole series of problems.