NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: educatedindian on October 04, 2005, 07:36:46 pm
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The "Southern Cherokee of Kentucky."
http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/history2.htm
This is a different group from Gary Ridge's SCN, they claim to be the true Southern Cherokee. Some of their docs they claim back that up are not too impressive.
And the "Chickamaugan Tsalagi of Kentucky" based in or near the town of Burnside. This is more of an alleged spiritual group claiming secret ceremonies and trying to build their own self sustaining community.
http://www.cherokeesofkentucky.org/
"Kentucky Chickamaugas—also known as the Thunderbolt Cherokees—held many Council Fires at Ywahoo Falls, Cumberland Falls, and Eagle Falls—all Sacred sites....Kentucky Cherokees gathered their allies in what is now Pulaski, McCreary, and Wayne Counties of Kentucky. The Chickamauga war headquarters were based at Burnside, KY.
In the many battles that followed, including the massacre of Cherokee women and children at Ywahoo Falls—some Chickamaugas went into hiding, so that survivors would be able to pass the stories to their children. In that way, the events would be remembered.
This Land is Sacred to the Chickamauga."
Some of you might recall Vance pretty much debunked the Ywahoo Falls massacre story as false.
Their alleged tribal homeland.
http://www.cherokeesofkentucky.org/land.htm
There's a discussion going on in Vance's yahoo group, Chickamauga Researchers, including with two people who are part of Chickamaugas of KY.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chickamauga_researcher/messages
Vance couldn't find any evidence of a Cherokee community in Burnside before the current group. Their leader is Jerry Edwards or Yonv Edwards. Nothing much online about him other than signing a Peltier clemency petition. He used to live in Mineral Springs FL.
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It may interest to know we have in our possession a letter from the Historic Preservation Specialist of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, which in part states: "the atrocities that occurred at Ywahoo Falls are worthy of note, and should be considered a significant event in Cherokee history, however, few people are aware of this site, or the events that make it significant. ? It is clearly stated that this event has been suppressed and much misinformation has been disseminated."
The letter also states that "The Historic Preservation Office of the Cherokee Nation would support an effort to mark the Ywahoo Falls site.."
It also goes on to say "I have become well acquainted with dealing with sites of Tribal interest in (southcentral Kentucky) district)."
I have read some other email exchanges concerning the CKY-C, and they are a perfect example of twisted words and the perpetuation of misinformation. Nothing was ever said anywhere about conducting 'secret ceremonies' or having tipis on the land (there are none) or not requiring Cherokee ancestry to enroll. ? What was said is that blood quantum is ? not the deciding factor. ?
We would suggest if you have questions or feel the need to investigate, come to the source for your information. ? Our doors are open. ? We hide nothing and have ? nothing to prove. ? New age fraud is as much an aggravation to us as it is to anyone who Honors the way of the people. ?
We have a CKYBeginnings list that we created to be an open forum so that people could gain a better understanding of who we are. ? The list does not require being an enrolled citizen of the band. ? The reference to the tipi probably came from an advertisement someone posted there without permission, for a gathering she was conducting in KY. ? It had nothing to do with the CKY-C. ? But one of those researchers read that and assumed we had tipis.
You may be surprised to discover some very traditional families, and very traditional individuals, are on our rolls. ?
There are some disgruntled people out there who found they could not diminish us through their arrogance and need for attention, and others who were shown the door because of their new age ways. ? These people have nothing better to do than try to discredit, just to make themselves feel more NDN.
Yes, we are a band based in Spirit and we make no apologies for that, because we feel that Unity among the People will come through Spirit, not politics or blood quantum. ? We don't play the "redder than thou" game - we know who we are and we hardly need permission to be what Creator has created us to be.
If you are looking for New Age groups and plastic shamans, you won't find any here.
Nogwisi
Cherokees of Kentucky Chickamauga
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N or Obi, perhaps you can clear up a few things rather than being defensive and insulting. Your worser and more childish insults were deleted, you see, because we don't reward immature behavior.
"we have in our possession a letter from the Historic Preservation Specialist of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma"
What's their name? Are you aware Dr. Richard Allen of the CNO is a member of this forum? Perhaps the two of them should talk, since Dr. Allen has been one of the most outspoken Cherokees EVER in stating that the 300+ would be Cherokee tribes are, for the most part, heritage groups and not tribes.
"It is clearly stated that this event has been suppressed and much misinformation has been disseminated."
It wasn't clear whether that sentence came from you or the HPS.
If you hadn't noticed, Vance led a long discussion in his group about Ywahoo Falls. Vance also tried to discuss, in a far less confrontational manner than you, the C of K group with you and the "chief". The two of you basically resorted to the "I'm too spiritual for this" defense and then said no more. ? ?
"Nothing was ever said anywhere about conducting 'secret ceremonies'"
Made a liar by your own words.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chickamauga_researcher/message/1588
"What is here would boggle your mind. ? You must understand that there are Sacred and Holy things that were put away and kept hidden and you will never find references to them on pages written by the white man, and they are right here in Kentucky."
Back to your post:
"We would suggest if you have questions or feel the need to investigate, come to the source for your information. ? Our doors are open. ? We hide nothing and have ? nothing to prove."
The behavior of the two of you in Vance's group, including the "chief", says the opposite.
And you don't seem to notice that this thread is clearly under "Research Needed."
"New age fraud is as much an aggravation to us as it is to anyone who Honors the way of the people."
Glad to hear it. But then why does your "chief" talk like "Blue Otter" Anderson at times? For example, this passage:
http://www.cherokeesofkentucky.org/GreenCorn.htm#Dept.%20of%20Tribal%20Affairs
"the Shift of the Age, Real Human Being, clarity, turmoil and the list goes on, all are part of the leaning process....What is happening is an elevation in the Frequency of everything... As the vibration of the Earth Mother increases, ? the vibration of the Human frequency increases."
Back to your post:
"The reference to the tipi probably came from an advertisement someone posted there without permission, for a gathering she was conducting in KY. ? It had nothing to do with the CKY-C. ? But one of those researchers read that and assumed we had tipis."
Nice try, but you earlier claimed there were no tipis on the site.
"There are some disgruntled people out there who found they could not diminish us through their arrogance and need for attention, and others who were shown the door because of their new age ways. ? These people have nothing better to do than try to discredit, just to make themselves feel more NDN."
Again, nice try. We have no former members of yours in here that I know of, and I don't believe Vance does in his group either. ? If there are any they haven't shown themselves. ?
"We don't play the "redder than thou" game:
Are you kidding? Both your site and the statements of your two members in Vance's group are filled with comments where you overcompensate. You both? denigrate whites in order to feel more NDN, or what you think more NDN is. ?
"If you are looking for New Age groups and plastic shamans, you won't find any here."
You might have better luck if you argued with what I or Vance or any of the other members of his group actually said, rather than what you pretend we said.
I said before you probably do have some members who have ancestry, and no doubt many of you sincrely think you are doing the right thing, while others may just be confised enough to not realize there are other better options. But having an obscure little compound in Kentucky based on Fakelore will not make you part of the Cherokee Nation (meaning all Cherokees, not the CNO.) It's been my experience and Vance's as well that one of the surest signs of a fake tribe is that their members (or at least the leaders) make little effort to win acceptance from the recognized tribes.
If one found out about their distant ancestry as your members have, the best thing to do is go to enrolled people and recognized groups for guidance, learning all you can, not go and set up a little Lord of the Flies fantasy out in the woods.
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Defensive and insulting? I tried my best to be respectful and truthful. This, after on Vance's list being labeled a cult, before anyone knew anything much about us.
Yes, I did notice that this is the 'more research' area, and I did my best to answer some of the questions and misconceptions to help with that "research." I will try again.
The letter from the CNO was written in 2001. I did not use the name of the person who wrote it, because I respect his privacy and don't have permission to put his name on the internet. I did, however, state his office, so Dr. Allen can check that out if he wants to, or he can contact me and I will provide the information privately.
Agreed, most of the 300+ groups out there are Cherokee heritage groups. We are not claiming to be a nation, a tribe - 'band' is the closest word in the English language we can come to.
"It is clearly stated that this event has been suppressed and much misinformation has been disseminated." is a direct quote from the CNO letter.
"Nothing was ever said anywhere about conducting 'secret ceremonies'"
Made a liar by your own words.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chickamauga_researcher/message/1588
"What is here would boggle your mind. You must understand that there are Sacred and Holy things that were put away and kept hidden and you will never find references to them on pages written by the white man, and they are right here in Kentucky."
Excuse me, where do you see the reference to secret ceremonies? I am referring to artifacts and stories handed down through generations, not ceremonies. My apologies if that wasn't clear.
You comment on our 'behavior' in Vance's group - where we were ridiculed and called a cult, yet we answered with respect and a genuine attempt to clarify and provide information.
There were also references in Vance's group to things I supposedly said, which were incorrect. The above 'ceremonies' is an example. Not requiring Cherokee ancestry was another - no, we aren't open to just anybody. There were others.
In my last post on Vance's list, I said that in respect for the list, I would not perpetuate an argument because that wasn't the purpose of that list. Vance's response was a very disrespectful something like walks like a cult - smells like a cult - etc. and then he booted me off the list. Where is the Honor and Respect in that behavior? So, we had no opportunity to respond, even if we wanted to.
I still don't know where you think we have tipis, because we have none. Sure you aren't confusing us with the other bands in KY?
Concerning "blue otter anderson" - we have no idea who he is. The clip taken from our site refers to the precession of the equinoxes, the Schumann frequencies, and Ancient prophecies. Look at scientific sites, not new age sites. Research electromagnetic fields, pole shifts, and again - look at scientific sites, not new age sites. While you're at it, check out sites concerning sustainable living and permaculture. I understand you are not Tsalagi, but whether you are aware of it or not, we do have prophecies dealing with the move into the sixth world, just as the Hopi, Navajo, Maya, Lakota, and probably your people do as well.
Concerning our rolls, our tribal members do have ancestry, many enough to enroll in the CNO if they chose. They CHOOSE not to, for various reasons. We have Elders who have been raised in the traditional ways and speak the language fluently. Do you?
Once again, I have no wish to perpetuate an argument, and I don't feel I should have to defend myself against a witch-hunt. I am logged in to NAFPS and this message won't post, so I'm assuming you've blocked my response in some way.
We have provided an invitation to anyone who wants to learn more about us. The truth will stand for itself.
Nogwisi
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howdy --
I did NOT boot you off that list -- youleft it of your own accord. I know somehting about cults and you sounded like one. I believe oyu left the group before that comment was made so apparently you returned, or had a friend thatreturned.
I have always tried to remain objective, no matter how far fetched . . .
I have looked or several years for evidence of a Yahoo Fals massacre.I wrote an archaeologist of employed by Daniel oone National Forest and he replied i.] no lead shot and no bones haev ever been found on the site. I wrote a local historian in South Central Kentucky who wrote a book on the history of the region, and he said the same -- he researched all newspapers, and other documents finding no evidence at all of a massacre except a book written by a M Collins, a local forester who tried to drum up tourist trade.
I have searched high and low for any documentation at all as well, and have found nothing. If you have such documentation please provide it. You have an obligation to everyone interested in this story to put out what proof you have.
Many have made this claim but none have showed it -- I really would love to see it.
thanks --
Vance
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I have been following the conversation concerning the cky of Burnside ,Ky and find I must speak up as I am Cherokee,Chickamauga. the cky groupie are a disgrace to all my ancestors with not only the ramblings of the so called"chief" and his followers. You speak out of both sides of your mouth. Y ou say you want to go back and live "the old way" yet you practice very non traditional ways, and no to change the old ways to fit todays pace is not nor was it ever the way my ancestors ment it to be. I mean "chief" how do you do traditional naming ceremony over the internet,cherokees had long houses a place for ceremonies,sacred area with spirit fire in the center, the position of clan mothers was a highly honerable position and not tossed out to some one over the internet that you have never met. I believe I read "beloved" in association with one of your followers, and yes you have called yourself a tribe, what about you will receive a tribal card on enrollment??Now I see mr.Edwards from Florida that you have proclaimed Charlie Lame Deer as "uka" Lame Deere "and it is so". I'm confused is he, cherokee,Lakota,Osage,Micmaq, ect. i guess that makes him "full Blood" hey!!! and oh by the way Jerry do you know Dhyani Ywahoo, if I didn't know better I would think she was the one writing you exortations every day. I will tell you this the "REAL HUMAN BEINGS" are aware of you and are all around you, my ancestors are watching you to. I have much more I could expose but I will finish by saying this Jerry to be a "REAL HUMAN BEING" you must be real yourself, as in the traditional way I Angela, cherokee, a 'true human being" and in honor of my people and those who have crossed I TURN MY BACK ON YOU!! Angela
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One more thing Jerry before I walk away if you are the "chief" why don't you speak instead of letting your wife do so. Let us know Jerry that it is you, put yourcherokee syllabary aside let us hear YOU.
Angela
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A couple of more things that alarmed me about yall --
i.] Do yall make members sell their lands and give the proceeds to you? Have you ever made anyone do this? That is a part of a definition of a "cult".
ii.] I have sought evidence for wild claims about the Chickamauga -- like Europeans of earlier generations sought the holy grail -- many others have done the same. You have an obligation to every descendant of the Chickamauga to show your "proofs" -- if you have any.
If your claims are unfounded you and others like you are the reason so many people are skeptical of the existence of so many undocumented Cherokee.
The truth is the most honorable thing you can seek in ANY religion. Misusing a truth for personal gain is the lowest, in my opinion.
iii.] I believe it was one of your members that replied on my research of history board that if a person of darker skin (paraphrasing) was peeved that white people were running the show -- who cares? So what? This appeared to me to be a very racist remark -- do yall condone such behavior from your members? THIS poster was banned by the way -- after they voluntarily left the group after that stupid remark -- someone called Lobolegends who was afraid to give their real name.
All these things concern me.
Vance
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You know what, there's no point in feeding this feeding frenzy any further. You all are going to do what you're going to do, and you'll have to procure your own fodder, because you will get no more from us. It's pointless. Your information is inaccurate, taken out of context, laced with assumption, inuendo, and conjecture - and that serves your purpose. Truth is not something you are looking for. As far as Chief Yonv speaking up for himself, I don't ask his permission to Speak. We are Tsalagi. Anyone who wants to get to know him is welcome to talk with him privately, because in a forum like this, we can see where this goes.
Eligwu! Enough.
Nogwisi
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To all those people in Burnside, well I see history repeating itself. What ever you have dug up and found there, in my book that makes you grave robbers. Once again a prime example of desecration of our ancestors.
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Gee, aren't we mean mean people. Asking for answers to questions, oh how awful.
It's a shame she decided to shut down and refuse to talk. I for one would really like to hear about their Ywahoo Falls claims, or her new claim they've "shown the door" to plastics.
Just how big is this alleged band? My guess, since they only have three of the seven clans, is that it's under 50 people including kids.
She did admit to me in an email that much of the words on their site are taken straight from Diane Fisher/Dhyani Ywahoo's books. She defends this as "correct" and admits they recommend the books to everyone.
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Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:10:16 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Lobiso" <lobiso@alltel.net>
As far a Dhyani Ywahoo's teachings - yeah, she's actually mostly a Buddhist. He sometimes recommends reading the book only because SOME of the Cherokee historical information is correct. He does not quote her or her beliefs. If you see a similarity somewhere, it's because, as I said above, some of the historical information is correct. The continued reference to us being a cult is offensive, incorrect, and totally bizarre. We actually have quite a revolving door and have shown it to several new agers, wannabe's, pseudo-Indians and oh yes, even a few plastic shamans.
Nogwisi"
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Its really too bad. Because anything accurate (however small an amount that is) which they could find in Yahoo's books they could also find in any number of other much more respected and correct sources.
What a shame.
I'm glad they aren't claiming to be a nation etc that they want to get back in touch with the culture - but it looks like they don't have a clue. :(
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Uku ? Wouldn't that fall under definition of a priest? What kind of priest? Aztec, Navaho( whoops they have medicine men ) Mayan, Cherokee, Christianity,
African VooDoo? So what kind of priest is Charlie?
If he's not a Cherokee priest , then that would be your plastic man. We don't have priests anymore in the Cherokee Tribe, just a medicine man here and there. Your enemy sits at your council. What you have there is your nemisis, you will see.
He is not your friend he is your enemy, there will come a day when your group is splintered because too many chiefs and not enough braves.
I predict in your future as a band that a battle will take place amongst yourselves because his ego is too big.
There is not too many sites he hasn't gone on. Always searching, looking for something he will not find.
But it looks like he's found the perfect place with your family, good luck.
P.S. Charlie if it don't work in Ky. try New Orleans they need more voo doo priests there
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So I see the CKY is at it again. Look what we have here, is that your token Indian? MMM. And a map to where your member lives? Does this not constitute exploration? By posting a map of where you members live, do you not think that this exposes them to physical harm? Do you realize the ramification of what you do by exposing on the internet a person's where abouts. I believe this falls under a legal matter and that person needs to find out if they don't know what you are doing, and ? to seek legal advice against your group.
So this is how you treat and love your family.
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I wander if bluestarwoman knows about this picture if her, she looks native but she must be a wannabe if she is brainwashed by this group. Glad your going to the pow wow I don't live that far from there so see you there jerry, I want to see what a "a real chief" looks like. I sure yiu will stand out most di-ga-li-nv'-hi-dv do.
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You mention that there were a few members of this cult that are Indian and show the photo. Here is what one person whom I was told was a member of this group, said on my Chickamauga Research group --
"Puleeeese . . . Ya'll are talking as if you're in high school . . . you're either Indian or not . . . if there happens to be a darker skinned person in my tribe who has a chip on their shoulder, who the heck
cares?"
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Sure sounds like htis person has a chip on their shoulder, doesn't it? Is this what the Burnside group really thinks about American Indians? hmm . . .
I have grown to hate hearing "you are either Indian or you are not" -- when I hear that I know they have probably been raised white and know very little of the heritage.
I will ALWAYS say, like my father before me, "Oh, I have a little Indian blood, not much, tho" -- and he had brown skin, black hair and brown eyes.
I am so tired of that "you are either Indian or you are not" comment & attitude that were I younger and seeing them in person and not on the internet, well I'd wanna punch 'em in the nose . . . least they'd be a little bit red then . . .
vance
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This just proves what this group is. A formation of twit wits, that have no concept of what a tribe, band or whatever they classify themselves as.
No where from any federal tribe, do they post their members photos or whereabouts. Even organizations whether it be native or not, doesn't do postings of their members.
This just proves the point of what you are. Any group that uses this tactic is a cult, it is a ploy to try and entice other naive people to join you.
A legitimate group doesn't have to use such tactics.
This isn't maybe a cult it is.If you don't know what a cult is, well it is a group or system of religious worship and order.
A culture is a form of civilization, with beliefs, arts and customs. No where is this seen in your group.
You are certainly not a civilization, a group of people do not constitute that.
Belief, well you fail in that department, what is your belief system based on, it is not of Cherokee belief.
Art and Customs, well there are a lot of people out there that are craftmen that does not make them a culture. Customs, don't see that in your picture either, you have to know customs to practice them. My family has a custom at X-mas we travel to another town to look at light displays, I don't think that makes us a civilzation.
So as I see it , if a group of say 20 of my friends, we could sit down and form a native band, wow that would be easy. Hey anyone interested, my friends and I are going to form the Northern Great Lakes Cherokee, we own a large piece of land here, we could set up long houses, medicine house, we have caves here, wow that would be a great place to hold council meetings. get our own site, and bam we're a band. Hey thanks for the pointers of how to form a band, maybe you would do better going out into the circuit and doing seminars on how to form an "Indian Band". Bet that would pay for that land you are out there solicitating monies for.
So anyone interested in joining my Northern Great Lakes Cherokees let me know. But if you like the Burnside group and want to join here's their email address.
Yonv777@alltel.net
lobiso@alltel.net.
But if you join their group instead of mine, I would understand, they have priests sitting on their council, Well may be we could too, I live across the street to a catholic church and priests I'll go over and ask him today if he would like to be in my group.
He could be our UKU, wow what a great concept, having the black robes in our band. Another case of history repeating itself again. Do you people know nothing of history, then maybe you should go ask a Navaho.
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Al, did you see that post about "Cherokee Heritage Foundation"? It popped up just after these other 2. Nobody has ever heard of it. I wonder if it is related to one of those groups?
Where do these off the wall Cherokee groups come from?? It's like the Cherokee are constantly besieged by this great flood of wackos.
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Saw it Vance, have no idea who they are, couldn't find anything.
The latest from the wife of the "chief" and my answer to her.
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Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:48:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "al carroll"
Subject: Re: NAFPS
To: "Lobiso" <lobiso@alltel.net>
I put my answers within the text so it'll be clearer what I'm responding to. My words have >>>
Lobiso <lobiso@alltel.net> wrote: My turn to apologize for delays. Maybe we can start over. I don't have a lot of time now, and I'll be out of town for about two weeks starting Monday.
>>>Sure, as I said before what I'm trying to do is get to the bottom and sort out competing claims. Above all I want to see fewer people harmed or misled.
In answer to your plastics we've shown the door - most recently we had a run-in with the Manataka outfit, who stole some things from our newsletter/website and published them without permission in their newsletter. We've since found out this is the way they operate and we're certainly not the first.
>>>Definitely. Trish has a warning about them on her site and letters from former members. If you could find the time, could you forward what happened to her? Another group, the Am Indian Heritage Center in Arkanas, also has very extensive warnings on Manataka, and I'm sure they'd appreciate another account as well.
As for others, it's mostly folks who want to "join" the CKY-C and send us emails like "I'm a medicine man and a shaman" or the reincarnation of Dragging Canoe or that they channel Jesus.
Others have been folks that we did enroll, and who then tried to enlighten us with a bunch of new-age gobbly gook. Others we advise to look elsewhere are those that have names like "crystal wind walking on the clouds" and "three feathers standing in the center" - you get my drift. And Bible-thumping missionaries - we send those elsewhere too.
One that left about a month ago did so because her 'daughter' tried to enroll claiming that her father was a full-blood and a shaman to boot. When Uku explained our feelings on that sort of thing, she became indignant and blasted him with all sorts of accusations (sound familiar?). Then the daughter did the same thing. A week later, that one said she was sorry and wanted to come back. She said she was just reacting to her 'daughter' being spoken to in a harsh manner by the Chief. Oh yeah - she also told us this isn't her real daughter, it's her daughter from a past life. Good grief! No, she was not enrolled.
>>>I'm not so concerned about the ones who are primarily harming or misleading themselves, but if you know of any of these who are setting themselves up as would be "online medicine men" etc, please let me know about them in as much detail as you have.
As I tried to explain - we have some VERY traditional Tsalagi people on our rolls. We have some very traditional Lakota/Cherokee people as well, with ties to Pine Ridge, White Earth, Rosebud. We are known there, and in a Good Way.
>>>Interesting. We have Lakota at NAFPS too. Perhaps they know the same ones you know?
I asked Yonv to explain the 'Voices of the Ancestors' book for you; here is what he said:
<<I have recommended the book with the admonishment to look at the origin stories and some of the information concerning the Priesthood. I understand that, as many things are, she is controversial, but truth is found in many places.
>>>"Controversial" does not begin to describe Fisher. She is an outright imposter, Jewish with no Cherokee ancestry at all that we can tell, and definitely a cult leader, one who cuts all ties between her followers and their families, controls every dime they make and every aspect of their lives, and tells her followers her son is the reincarnation of a living god.
What is interesting about her book is it comes closer to what the elders taught me of the origin stories and the priest hood than anything I have found out there,
>>>I'd disagree strongly with that, as would our Cherokee members.
because not many have written of these things. Yes, she is into Buddhism, but like it or not, the old ones practiced some very similar exercises among the Tsalagi.
>>>Oh boy. To say Cherokee and Buddhist beliefs have any similarity whatsoever says that your "chief" does not know much.
>>>No reincarnation in Cherokee beliefs, no belief in karma or dharma, no martial arts, no orders of monks and nuns. For that matter, there's not even any specific mention of a deity in Buddhism.
I always tell people that the truth is in their own hearts and there is where they will know the difference. I have been very careful to make people aware that there are many different versions of things and that it is the Spirit of the All that is that will guide us and our own hearts where the Truth speaks to us.
>>>Sorry, but your chief is spouting Nuage beliefs here, not Cherokee or any Native tradition I've ever heard. There are many spirits and many people you cannot trust, and many deceivers out there.
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Pt 2
We know you are getting messages from our open list - the comment about Uku Yonv "making Uku Lame Deer an Uku" went out within hours of the post.
>>>Yes, from multiple sources. You have quite a few people upset with you, more than are pleased with what you do. So far I have not seen a single defense of your group by anyone but you.
What wasn't sent to you is that Uku Lame Deer has been a leader and a "chief" of the Buffalo River Wazhazhe for a long time.
>>>Oh boy. CLD appears to be a very questionable character at best. He's claimed at different times to be Lakota, Munsee, or Osage, and now he's using a Cherokee title?
Uku Yonv was simply telling those in the CKY-C that he is to be addressed as such on our lists - the Lakota have different ways of doing things.
>>>Yes, and I've never heard of them doing anything like insisting on being called by another tribe's title.
And before you ask that question - they have asked to be included in our rolls because these Lakota also have Chickamaugan ancestry. Since we are about Unity, there was no question.
>>>Oh brother. They claim to be Lakota, but they are calling themselves Wazhazhe? That's the Osage name for themselves.
Let's see, I'm trying to remember some of the other 'comments.' Oh yes - someone was upset because I said 'we are all related' in Tsalagi. Oh brother - we won't even go there. Go find me a real Indian that doesn't believe we are all related.
>>>You wouldn't have far to go. That's not only not a phrase never used by any actual Indians, that's not even a Lakota phrase. It's a Nuage bad translation of Lakota. See this for the actual phrase and its meaning.
http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/articles/art04.htm
Uku Yonv spent a whole summer with a Lakota Elder who taught him the Lakota ways and passed the right to pour to him. Then we had a man from Pine Ridge staying with us for several months who also did that.
>>>Who was this? There are quite a few exploiters who pose as Lakota elders. It could be he was deceived. The real ones tend not to hand out "right to pour" left and right, especially since your "chief" has such questionable judgement on many things.
Then he received instruction in the Tsalagi way, from an Elder enrolled in the CNO - and permission to pour.
>>>Oh brother. There is no "Tsalagi way" of doing a sweat. Traditional Cherokees have Going to the Waters, which is almost the opposite of of a sweat.
we now have on our rolls folks who are Chickamauga/Lakota, with lineage back to Fool's Crow.
>>>To put it mildly, an "interesting" claim.
Concerning Vance and his group of 'documented Chickamauga' research - I admire what they are trying to accomplish. However, they are not folks who are living Tsalagi,
>>>Actually Vance lives in Oklahoma in and around Cherokee communities. But he does not put on airs of "more Cherokee than you" if that's what you mean.
Sorry, but the truth is, none of you seem to live Cherokee from what I can tell. To start with the obvious, "Tsalagi" is not generally used by Cherokee, who prefer to say Cherokee. "Tsalagi" is generally used by people who have recently discovered they had ancestry, and overcompensate.
or they would have the understanding about things not written down; things that are part of the Tsalagi oral history. The documentation they solely rely on was written by the same people who were hell bent on exterminating the Tsalagi. Do they think those people actually took time to document everything about a village before it was burned to the ground? Do you think Tsalagi ancestors were stupid enough to give the Anglos all the details about everything they wanted to know?
>>>Oh brother. Conspiracy thinking at its worst.
There's a difference between that and regard for oral tradition. And Vance knows about oral traditions quite a bit.
-
Pt 3
Now, I'd like to ask you something. Who put you in charge of deciding who or what is a Native fraud?
>>>Oh brother. That sounds so Nuagey.
First, since when someone need an elder's permission before doing what is right?
Second, a great many elders have requested, over and over, help with dealing with frauds.
Just a short list, the first FOURTEEN councils of elders resolutions calling for a halt to frauds, abusers, and exploiters, including Diane Fisher.
http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm
Collectively those fourteen resolutions have perhaps five hundred different elders names on them. The most famous, the Lakota Declaration of War, has over three hundred elders names on it alone, from nearly fifty Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota tribes and bands.
>>>I should also mention that Bernard Red Cherries of the Northern Cheyenne is someone NAFPS has been glad to work with. A number of us sent support to aid him in his work.
>>>Does that answer your ridiculous question?
>>>And do you apply the same standard to others? Do you ask someone Black if they went for permission from their local minister before they spoke out against the Klan, for example? Or is it just a given that Blacks know the Klan is their enemy, just like Natives know imposters and frauds like Diane Fisher are their enemy.
Were you given this right by a Council of Elders, or from one of the Reserves?
>>>Are you from Canada? In the US they're called reservations. Interesting, didn't know there were Cherokee in Canada outside of the occasional tourist.
Who are your Ancestors? Are you yourself Tsalagi? Have you been taught the Origin Stories and the way of our Ancestors? If you are not Tsalagi, how can you profess to know the truth about Tsalagi ways, especially what is NOT written in books or documents?
>>>You already know I'm not Cherokee, but it's pretty obvious to me I know more about Cherokee ways than either you or the "chief". As much as it might pain you, your lack of knowledge is glaring and obvious.
I would hope that before you engage in a witch-hunt
>>>Oh brother. For all your claims of wanting to start over, why do you break out the hyperbole and get so melodramatic?
Asking for answers is hardly the same as mass murder. It seems you've never known prejudice in your life, or you wouldn't make such a hysterical claim.
based on the opinions of a few that have a radical, militant 'redder than thou' attitude,
>>>Sorry, but you need to face facts. What we do is very mainstream in Indian Country. Protecting spiritual traditions is widely respected by elders and by just about all Indians.
that you seek out the Old Ones, the Grandmothers and Grandfathers who can give you some better insight on what it means to be Tsalagi, if you ask in the proper way.
>>>I would suggest you and the would be "chief" do the same. So far I've seen almost no sign you know much about Cherokee tradition. You both seem sadly clueless, whether you want to admit it or not.
With respect,
Nogwisi
>>>"With respect"? I hope you can learn to respect Cherokee traditions, because I've seen little of that so far, and all our Cherokee members seem to agree.
And how about your actual name? Instead of trying to impress me (and failing, as we can all see), why not simply say your name is Mary or Jane or whatever it actually is? I don't flaunt an "Indian name", that would not be the right thing to do. And I've never met an actual Cherokee that does that either, just seen it done by those with distant ancestry who are trying to overcompensate.
Still, it's a hopeful sign that you wrote back, and I hope you'll continue to.
Al Carroll
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I have to say I live in SW Ok, a 5 or 6 hour drive from where most Cherokee are in NE Ok, depending on how willin' I am to gamble on gettin' a speedin' ticket. The oldser I get, the less likely I am to make that gamble.
I'd like to comment on the Lakota/Chickamauga connection -- I don't believe there is any.
Chickamauga towns only separated from the other Cherokee towns about 1775, always lived near them, and a great many were eventually integrated back into the Cherokee Nation.
Arkansas Cherokee were those who most definitely those who did not want to give up the traditional ways -- they wanted to continue to hunt with a traditional hunting grounds. These were primarily from the Lower Towns, which were the Chickamaua towns. Once in Arkansas however they started attending Churches and schools as their Eastern brothers had done 20 years previously. Newcomers from the East considered them "backwards" and they wanted to catch up, and did. They'd since quit "pining" for the old ways.
They fought many wars with the Osage, who already lived in Arkansas. The Osage speak a Siouan language and as such would haveknown their northern cousins quite well.
As far as I know, there was never any interaction between the Chickamauga and the Lakota. some delegations of Chickamauga did travel to detroit in an attempt to get supplies from the Brittish on at least 2 occasions, and maybe more. Some claim (I do ot know if it is true or not) that the Santee Sioux came from the Carolinas (they had been allies of the Catawba) to the Western Great Lakes after contact with the Spanish. If this occurred or not I can not say, but they too were enemies with the Cherokee, and this "migration" (if it occurred) occurred long before the Chickamauga towns were established in the mid 1770s.
But other that this, there is nothing to substantiate any link between the Cherokee and the Lakota. If you have evidence of this please share it. I have to say it sounds like nonsense, tho.
thank you,
Vance
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Not being Lakota or Cherokee, I can't say nothing of what's what!
What I can say is, " Name Traditional Elders Who Give You Support" its as easy as that.
Like other members here I know people from these nations, if they agree with names etc, then that would lead a way. To conceal that shows a big ????.
Piya Running Jumping Bull Fly's Like An Eagle Crystal Warrior
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My name is Raven Walkingstick-Lawson, my nickname is Robin.
As a former member of the CKY ( actually a time period of 72 hrs). My family and I were subjected to explotations, by posting on the beginners list with photos of all of us from my yahoo 360. I invited two members to view it, and then the following day it was posted on their site. If this is not a means of explotation then I must be a total idiot.
I was concerned to have a clan mother, who stated that she grew up in a traditional Cherokee community, yet knew nothing about the traditions and asked if I would teach her what I knew. Now if you say that I have twisted this, then I will post exactly what was said, so there is no misunderstandings.
I read that the group states they have ties to White Earth, Al is very much aware that my husband sun danced there under Mick Norris. I did tell your group that was a sun dance family to my family here. So as I read the name dropping, and most of them are ties that my family have, not yours. This is another means of being what you really aren't. I speak not as a digruntled former member, but as an objective human being.
I was a very open book to you, I did this as a means to show that I am who I say I am.
I never claimed to be anything other than what I am.
By telling you about myself, I found that it was taken many times over and applied to yourselves. If you want that posted I will gladly do so.
I tested the theory of how you group applies the "old ways". To give an example. When the posting came out with CLD being "UKU". I asked him in a private e mail about using the name hunka, since he stated he was Lakota. In response he posted a public letter to me in the group, that came down to saying "when in rome do as the romans do" he made it a point to share his life as a friar and how things work within the catholic order.
Well I'm not in Rome, and I am certainly not Catholic. I responded with a letter to the "clan mother's that since it was required to follow real trditions, I stated that I would and that from that point on I ask that any man from the group, especially those that was to speak to me directly that they would have to go through my husband. The next day came a posting that we have to adjust to the times. This is a total contridition of what was said the day before This tradition is not just an old one, it still is in practice with many elders today in the present.I believe I can honestly say I was the only one that spoke as a real person. with real thoughts of my own.
So I ask the group to disconnect them selves from me, which I see hasn't happened yet, because of the name dropping.
What is a cherokee doing in a sweat? My husband is an Inipi man, but I do not sweat. I cook and feed the people that come, but as a traditional I do not sweat. And the right to pour water. That comes from commentments of 4 years as a sun dancer. Not from someone who tells you to pour water on the rocks. As you will note I did not use the term " grandfathers" for the rocks. There is a reason for that. My husband has many years as a sun dancer with several " families".
One thing that is traditional with Cherokees,( sharing some tradition with you so listen) Is when you go to an elders home you take tobacco, and many also bring coffee and other staples. That is what is done in my house. That I was taught and that is what I practice. So when people come to my home to sweat with my husband, they know who I am and always bring those things to my home.
The talks of humbleness, and the "Yonega" not my word, yours, "has not connected to" well I see that more in CKY than in the 'white society".
As you read this, you may say that I am a person of low self esteem, or I have an inflated ego. I don't have time in my life for either. I am not trying to be something I am not. I was willing to try to "Guide" all of you to what real native people are about, but that theory got blown out of the water within 24 hrs. of me being a "member". As my grandfather told me " They don't want to know the truth, and traditions., so don't waste your time trying" Once again as I have seen many times over, this applied in my life with the CKY.
But as I see it since you tried to use me as a means to "recruit" new members. I believe perhaps I can return the favor to you. I can send you all the new members that believe as you. It is really an unlimited number. This would be a great honor as a "vessel, a conduit for the divine light ". Got lots of them around that believe in the divine light.
So I am taking one piece of "teaching" that is " focus on what we were created for" That is a easy one for me.
I didn't come into the group, because I need a "family" I have a very big one, it's called a tribe. I came in to give you the insight to what race we all are, it's called the human race.
So with that I have no more to say, I will not be surprised if you feel that you have to justify your actions, with a response. That is not required here, for it serves no purpose to what the truth is.
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I have taken the liberty to contact the AIM chapters, to make them aware of what has took place with my dealings with your group. I have sent out all the postings private and public, so they know the whole picture here.
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Well now what do we have here??hmmm. Do you ckys know what BIG TROUBLE you can get into when you throw names out there that you have no rights to. I know of that happening once and a whole caravan of LAKOTAS came and tore evrything down and took what didn't belong. Other tribes are no different DON'T TOSS NAMES AROUND without permission because it will come back to you in a way thats not good. Thats a fact you exploit one tribal member your are really exploxting the whole tribe. That jerry is the truth.
Great pow wow hey, what was that little thing you did????? So sorry Robin but you did a good thing in a good way, may creators blessings be upon you and all your FAMILY. Angela
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What I said about Santee Sioux might have been nonsense, I'm not sure.
I was just trying to think of how the Cherokee might have interacted with the Lakota people. It is possibly a conicidence there were Santee Sioux in both South Carolina (allied to the Catawba) and in Minnesota. I don't know if they migrated from one place to the other or if there were always 2 separate and distinct groups.
Anyhow -- the point was there WAS no connection between the Chickamauga and the Lakota as these people claimed.
vance
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This is from the welcome message that the "chief" sends to new members. Notice it's loaded with Nuage ideas dressed up as Cherokee. I've put >>> to indicate the worst and most obviously Nuage parts.
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CKYBeginnings@yahoogroups.com
Date: 23 Oct 2005 09:34:38 -0000
....Wado.
O'Siyo Sidanelv ale Sunale Osda, (Hello Family and Good Morning)....
There are people who come here and because of their lack of understanding of the "Way of the True Human Being" they get off on the wrong foot. I am speaking of people who perceive themselves to be teachers, shamans, medicine people and so on. We are not naive or unaware of the real thing. The fastest way to identify someone who is not - is when they tell you they are....
We are not endeavoring to convince you we are Cherokee or anything else.... That old NDN saying,
>>>"We are All Related" is what that is all about....
I am speaking of one that is conscious of their presence and the idea of respect at levels that the Yonega, (White World) has never seemed to connect to....
You would not be here if Spirit had not directed you here....
There is much going on and developing for the Cherokees of Kentucky-Chickamauga. Land, Not for Profit, Gatherings,
>>>preparation for the Shift of the Age, it is an infinite job to
>>>Serve the Source of the All that Is....
>>>Each one of us are a vessel, a conduit for the Divine Light to flow through. That is the reason we must be clear....
>>>Actually, it can mostly be unloaded when we let go of the Ego.
>>>When we realize that there is a separate self that wants to survive at all costs, and there is a >>>Real Self that is so much more magnificent, when allowed to surface and Live, we have to make a choice. Many compromise and live between worlds.
>>>Some, find the courage to kill the old separate self and let go of the Ego....
>>>In the end, it is said, "When we find the source of the ego, we find bliss". That is because the >>>realization of the true self is a revelation of an unlimited being with unlimited potential. It does not get any better that that....
Uku Yonv
Anitsisqua
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Thanks for changin' the subject. :)
Are they saying the Chickamauga believed that stuff and talked about it -- Ego, bliss, unlimited potential, conduit of a divine life ?? ?
Oh I can just see Dragging Canoe leading his warriors into battle in the 1780s giving them a pep talk about that stuff, suuuuure . . .
Good grief.
?????
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Various things their leaders have said on their site:
http://www.cherokeesofkentucky.org/August05.htm
"From the Principal Chief: ….This all started when the "FALL" from Unity Consciousness was complete….
I ask you to join the CKY in Spirit and return to a way of life that is in harmony and rhythm with the Universal Song of Love that emanates from the Source.
Let's begin now to lose the fear and step forward, and let's take each other's hand. I reach out in the Spirit of the All that Is, no more or less than you. Together, we can manifest Unity and the Old Way once again. Now is the time to act on these understandings. The time until the culmination of the end of the Age and the Movement up the Spiral is at hand. There will be upheaval and turmoil that is going to occur along the way….
Uku Yonv
Anitsisqua
Dept. of Tribal Affairs (DTA) Notes...
Gathering 2005!…There was a powerful, healing Sweat Lodge. We joined in Ceremony in the Circle on the hill. We had naming Ceremonies, and Frank Looking Eagle had put the finishing touches on the Ceremonial Staff, which was Blessed and Honored in Ceremony and now resides at the DTA….
Most of the Gathering attendees were Council members - and the Council went to work.
ClanMother Nogwisi
AniWahya / DTA
Aug. 10: Ceremony at Yahula (Yahoo) Falls, Kentucky...
Once again, Uku Yonv, ClanMother Nogwisi, Uku Giga Tali - and anyone who would like to participate, will be doing Ceremony to Honor the Ancestors (most of whom were women and children) who were killed on Aug. 10, 1810, at Yahoo Falls, Kentucky….
The 1810 massacre of Cherokee elder men, women, children and babies was a horrific incident that changed and nullified the ancient energies of this Sacred Place. But since energy can't be destroyed, only changed, one only has to walk the ancient trails through the Kentucky woods - put a hand on some of the Grandfather rocks, pay attention to the older trees that have survived the loggers and the years, and listen with the heart, to hear the Ancestors and know the Sacredness remains. Those ancient energies are hiding in the rocks, in the trees and crevices, in the water itself. There's a low vibration, as if they are just below the surface, waiting for release, waiting for a sign that it's safe to come out into the open again….
The Real People who come here know that this place is still Sacred, in spite of its more recent history, and that it has an integral part in this place in time, in the coming Shift of the Ages. They know that it is an Energy Portal, a Sound Chamber, a point on a Triangle and part of a much larger picture.
....ClanMother Nogwisi (this article first appeared in the Spring, 2004 issue of GREEN CORN).
From the Principal Chief:…
There will be a great darkness before the dawn. It is always the way. People will continue on with their lives hoping and wishing it will go away. It will continue to get worse and people will begin to lose heart. Because of the domino effect, with the rising gas prices and the rising cost of everything, it will become harder and harder for the middle class to stay in the middle.
There is a Light in all this. We, the Cherokee, and other indigenous peoples of the Americas and the world, have known of this coming darkness as long as Edoda has had us here on the Earth Mother. Being time keepers, along with the Maya and the Hopi, these understandings have been passed down and kept. …
Uku Yonv
Anitsisqua"
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Utter nonsense --
they say --
But since energy can't be destroyed, only changed, one only has to walk the ancient trails through the Kentucky woods --
reply --
The energy that "can't be destroyed" has a specific physical definition. The energy he is describing is not related to that definition.
they say --
It may interest to know we have in our possession a letter from the Historic Preservation Specialist of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, which in part states: "the atrocities that occurred at Ywahoo Falls are worthy of note, and should be considered a significant event in Cherokee history, however, few people are aware of this site, or the events that make it significant. It is clearly stated that this event has been suppressed and much misinformation has been disseminated."
The letter also states that "The Historic Preservation Office of the Cherokee Nation would support an effort to mark the Ywahoo Falls site.."
It also goes on to say "I have become well acquainted with dealing with sites of Tribal interest in (southcentral Kentucky) district)."
reply --
I have heard many people claim something similar, but never seen anyone why actually showed a historical reference anywhere to this incidence.
As I have said to many, if you have evidence show it. If you have such a letter, please tell who this "Historic Preservation Specialist of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma" is, and provide a copy of this document.
Vance
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It gets worse Vance. The leader, Jerry Edwards or "Yonv Edwards", shut down their yahoo group, seemingly to hide evidence of a possible crime, threats against a former member. Not only that, but all the Nuage indoctrination he tried to put over members in there.
----
From: Yonv
Date: 10/08/05 06:56:08
To: CKYBeginnings@yahoogroups.com; CherokeesofKentucky@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CKYBeginnings] Morning Thoughts
O'Siyo Sidanelv ale Sunale Osda,
....Do I say that because i am full of Gisi and on some power trip. NO! I say it because the power that we experience is the that which flows from the Source of the All that is....
We must heal in the Self through the Understanding....
Diversion, that was the ploy of the ego to keep us looking for validation from outside sources. Sneaky little critter. It is fighting for it's life. It knows the moment you realize who you truly are, it will become a mute point....
It is the Fabric that holds all things together.
...The understanding that once it clicks in your mind and activates in your heart, there is nothing you cannot do or we cannot do together....
Our job is to follow the Light...
I want to say again what a blessing that Charlie Lame Deer and the Buffalo River Band are now One with the Cherokees of Kentucky Chickamauga....
Danadahgohv
Uku Yonv
----
And their soliciting for the money for their compound and members to live at it.
-----
From: Yonv
Date: 10/08/05 18:20:12
To: CKYBeginnings@yahoogroups.com; CherokeesofKentucky@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CKYBeginnings] Land
O'Siyo Sidanelv,
....I am so proud of this Family. We had a need to meet a down Payment of 2000 dollars for the land. I want you to know, it is covered and a little towards our first mortgage payment....
As Frank Looking Eagle said a while back, please don't stop now.... We already have a few pledges and a few folks doing 25 or so a month. This is how we make the payments from now on.
Those of you, and you know who you are, who stepped up to the pump to meet the needs, please let us know if it is your intention to have a cabin on the grounds. Also, anyone who is planning to be here and live here after we get that far, please, let us know....
Uku Yonv
Anitsisqua
----
And in their final message in their yahoo group, he defended at length, over half of his message, using a cult leader and imposter's book, Diane Fisher AKA "Dhyani Yawahoo".
-----
From: Yonv
Date: 10/28/05 10:08:34
To: CKYBeginnings@yahoogroups.com; CKYC
Subject: [CKYBeginnings] Final message
First, I apologize for setting everyone's settings to "individual emails". It is a one time thing so that you will receive the final message to the Beginnings List. This will be the last message sent to this list....
I have at times told people there is some good information in the book, "Voices of our Ancestors" by a lady who calls herself Diyani Ywahoo. I have always told folks that there are some Buddhist things in the book, but the origin stories and some of the information on the Priesthood is good in my perception. I have always qualified such things where there has been any controversy.
Based on that bit of information, it is also being said that we are harming people and teaching things that are new age. Well, there are a lot of things in this world, and truth is found in many places. It can even be found intermingled with things that are not true. We believe that the Creator has given us all the spirit of discernment, so we do not advocate censorship of any information.
But let's face it, anything can be told in any way, ? It is much like the bible, interpretation is the rule....
Now, back to closing this list. It is all we can do to take care of our Band, the CKYC. The experiment of the Beginnings list has proven that it cannot be done in an open forum with an open door policy....
Uku Yonv
----
"It cannot be done in an open forum."
In other words, he's tightening his control even further. No dissent, none at all.
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osiyo there jerry, so you say that no post of a yahoo 360 site was not posted on the beginners list?? Well I'm here to tell you I have that post and a message from lonbo?? whoever she is sense she refuses to give her name. In fact I have every posting on the beginners list and prove that you are an untruthful person. Yes I was in the beginners list and Robin Lawson/Walkingstick is my cherokee sister. We have both ran into many groups like yours who try to steal native heritage and beliefs, you and your wife say we are gossipers, well that means tattlers so what is it we are tatteling on, I have all the documentation to back up everything we have said.According to many different tribes but speaking for my own, Chickamaugan cherokee,Doublehead lineage I hear nothing of our ancient beliefs just ramblings from someone who is, in your words "yonega" which I find very offensive after all you are white and a wannabe. You speak of ego well you really need to work on that one.
As for my cherokee sister Raven/Robin, she and I have taken action to have all this investigated not only by political agency, AIM of Kentucky, Federal Government, but also chiefs and Elders of Different Tribes, and believe me when I say You really don't want to fool these guys, not a threat just the truth.
You Jerry and all you speak is carried on the wind to nowhere!! I come from a line of war women, so I know gigi when I hear it and have the guts to say to you, YOU ARE A FRAUD. tHERE ARE MANY INIPI, CHANUPA ceramonies going on in many places and decisions are being made.
WAHALA
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I am planning at the moment to put together a group of people to go to Burnside and protest near their site. The purpose is to bring awareness to the local people there of who and what these people are.
I believe the people that live near there have the right to know who their neighbors are, and the potential harm they can do. People that have irrational thoughts and actions I deem as being a threat to society. The CKY have all the makings of such.
I am also looking into the laws in Ky in regards to solicitating funds in the state and on the internet.
Hopefully if enough pressure is applied it will bring an end to the CKY.