Ken's intro / Here we go round the mulberry bush...

[Ken]

My name really is Ken and let me tell you a little about who I am and who I am not.  My heritage is not Native American as far as I can find out from any genealogy research I've done.  My ancestors were Celts.  As near as can be determined I am of the Red Deer Clan that migrated to the British Isles in the 2nd Century BC.  So other than just an interest in things Native American, why am I here?

A great deal has been written and said about New Age usurpation of Native American spirituality.  I am totally sympathetic to that because I am a near death experiencer and we have the same problems.  The New Age movement has attempted to hijack nde's and migrate them into some kind of pseudo-religion for years.  Sadly, a number of experiencers, like some Native Americans, will jump on the bandwagon for a few bucks.

More to the point.  Because of my extremely awakened spirituality and awareness since my experience in 1996 I have taken a great interest in things of a spiritual nature.  I have also had a number of visions since that time.  I have visions without any kind of sweat lodge, or other ceremony, they just arrive.  I also have a keen awareness of why I was sent back (yes, SENT back).  Last Fall I was made to know I was to prepare for the healing of the Earth Mother and her children.  I have been made to know I am to pursue a shamanic path for healing.  For me to journey into the other realms is something I do often and easily so I already understand the spirits/energy in everything.  What I need to learn is how to direct this into healing.  This is where the problem comes in.  I am not Native American and have no intention of ever calling myself a "Shaman" or charging for any service, or writing a book, or making a movie or anything else but healing.  So how do I get past the "plastic shaman" label to learn?

Well, that’s a lot to put in an introduction but that is what I’m about.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

My name really is Ken and let me tell you a little about who I am and who I am not.  My heritage is not Native American as far as I can find out from any genealogy research I've done.  My ancestors were Celts.  As near as can be determined I am of the Red Deer Clan that migrated to the British Isles in the 2nd Century BC.

Hi Ken, welcome aboard. You're able to trace your ancestry back over 2000 years to a particular clan? That's frankly incredible. I can find no mention online of this Red Deer clan, except on role-playing sites and in your own posts on other message boards. Archaelogists tend to use the web a lot; I can only assume this clan is currently unknown to archaeology.

Thirdly, the various people often called Celtic in the British Isles never called themselves that. There was no cross-European Celtic culture. See

James, Simon. The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention? British Museum Press, 1999.

Collis, John. The Celts - Origins, Myths & Inventions. Stroud: Tempus Publishing, 2003.

So how do I get past the "plastic shaman" label to learn?

If you search this message board you'll find threads discussing the origin of the concept of shamanism. It's an entirely Western idea which is projected onto indigenous people by academics and hucksters. See also

Kehoe, Alice Beck. Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exercise in Critical Thinking. Prospect Heights, Illinois: Waveland Press. 2000.

Hutton, Ronald. Shamanism: Siberian Spirituality and the Western Imagination. London: Hambledon & London, 2001.

Wernitznig, Dagmar. Going Native or Going Naive?: White Shamanism and the Neo-Noble Savage. Lanham, Maryland: University Press of America, 2003.

Noel, Daniel C. The Soul of Shamanism: Western Fantasies, Imaginal Realities. 1997. New York: Continuum.

Jenkins, Philip. Dream Catchers: How Mainstream America Discovered Native Spirituality. Oxford University Press. 2004.

[Ganieda]

Mr. MacEwan, you know better than that.  Shamanism is NOT a western idea.  

Quote: (The Archaeology of Shamanism )"When a dissident priest called Avvakum arrived in the lands of the nomadic, reindeer-herding Evenki in the early 1650's, having been exiled to central Siberia by the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, no outsider had ever heard of a saman, let alone written the word down or explored the cosmological understandings that underpinned its meaning.  By the time of  his execution for heresy in 1682, Avvakum's descriptions communicated during his sojourn among the Evenki had already laid the foundations for what anthropologists would later term the study of shamanism."

(for info on Avvakum see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avvakum  )

The word "shamanism", and related words, are often used as terms of communication rather than definition.

Ken, do a little more research.  And be careful what you say on this forum.  Mr. MacEwan, and others of his ilk, love to prove their own infallibility.  

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Shamanism is NOT a western idea.

Quote: (The Archaeology of Shamanism )"When a dissident priest called Avvakum arrived in the lands of the nomadic, reindeer-herding Evenki in the early 1650's, having been exiled to central Siberia by the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, no outsider had ever heard of a saman, let alone written the word down or explored the cosmological understandings that underpinned its meaning.  By the time of  his execution for heresy in 1682, Avvakum's descriptions communicated during his sojourn among the Evenki had already laid the foundations for what anthropologists would later term the study of shamanism."

I haven't read this book, and I doubt you have after seeing its list price at amazon[/url]. Try reading that quote, viewable at amazon, again. Do you see the part at the end where it says that (Western) anthropologists coined the term 'shamanism'? There's another interesting passage on the next page:

The notion of a collective pattern of belief - shamanism - arose first when the Christian missions began to seriously target the Siberian peoples for conversion, and thus sought to identify a pagan religion towards the overthrow of which they could concentrate their efforts.

According to that author anthropologists and missionaries developed the concept of shamanism. If that's the best evidence you can find that shamanism is non-Western, then you're stuck. You've had a few years by now to find some: in 2003, writing as 'haidadawn' on one of NAFPS' precursor lists, you had this same argument with me[/b], and the evidence you produced then was just as poor as your latest effort, though I guess quoting academic literature is a step up from a Canadian tourism site. I think it's you who knows better, or ought to by now.

[Ken]

Hi Ken, welcome aboard. You're able to trace your ancestry back over 2000 years to a particular clan? That's frankly incredible. I can find no mention online of this Red Deer clan, except on role-playing sites and in your own posts on other message boards. Archaelogists tend to use the web a lot; I can only assume this clan is currently unknown to archaeology.

Thirdly, the various people often called Celtic in the British Isles never called themselves that. There was no cross-European Celtic culture. See

James, Simon. The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention? British Museum Press, 1999.

Collis, John. The Celts - Origins, Myths & Inventions. Stroud: Tempus Publishing, 2003.


If you search this message board you'll find threads discussing the origin of the concept of shamanism. It's an entirely Western idea which is projected onto indigenous people by academics and hucksters. See also

Kehoe, Alice Beck. Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exercise in Critical Thinking. Prospect Heights, Illinois: Waveland Press. 2000.

Hutton, Ronald. Shamanism: Siberian Spirituality and the Western Imagination. London: Hambledon & London, 2001.

Wernitznig, Dagmar. Going Native or Going Naive?: White Shamanism and the Neo-Noble Savage. Lanham, Maryland: University Press of America, 2003.

Noel, Daniel C. The Soul of Shamanism: Western Fantasies, Imaginal Realities. 1997. New York: Continuum.

Jenkins, Philip. Dream Catchers: How Mainstream America Discovered Native Spirituality. Oxford University Press. 2004.

Very good points.  The Red Deer Clan refers to my family name that is derived from that Clan name.  The migration of that Clan was discovered by a friend of mine who was researching a novel in Scotland based on historic facts.  I doubt it is widely disributed information but it is available in texts in one of their libraries.  Even though they did not call themselves "Celts" it is certainly a name used to refer to the migrations that took place after their defeat about 300 BCE.  The Red Deer Clan name is nearly unpronouncable in English so that it is no wonder they adopted the Anglicised version by the 11th Century.  The paternal genealogy has only been traced definitively back to the early 18th Century and the maternal side to the 16th Century (there is a fully traced English Lord in there) but the family name is very old in what is now Scotland/Ireland.  So, the full genealogy is a bit of an assumption based on the family name but considering the trace-back done so far it appears to be a fair assumption.

The term "shamanism" is only a name (Siberian origin from what I understand) but the practice is known back into the Paleolithic period based in interpretations of the French cave drawings.  Also, many same or similar practices appear world-wide in many cultures in many countries.  Rituals may differ but the intent remains constant.  

[educatedindian]

Actually Ganieda, not even many Siberians use the term shaman, or the word of their it allegedly came from. What I take Barnaby to mean is that claiming you can somehow label all tribal beliefs as shamanism or shamanic or any other anthropologist or Nuage or western cultural label is inaccurate.

Ken, my suggestion is that you look within your own heritage, as difficult as that is. As you'll probably find out the hard way if you haven't already, there are a lot of frauds, exploiters, and naive or misguided people claiming to be pagan healers or "shamans".

We do have threads about recommended books for pagans (made by pagans who themselves are fed up with false information.)

[walking-soft]

'siyo Ken,

welcome to the site.
After reading your post I had to give it a lot of thought.Having been in the medical profession for many years i have heard of many near death experiences and yes many speak of a new spiritual awareness.

When did this experience happen??  Where did the word shaman come from? Be cautious?? Be sure you are listening to what is right. Did this vision you had say for you to be a shaman?? You really need to question that?

Whatever you choose to do, it's a personal journey for you. Sit with that, listen to your heart. If it's to be ,a Elder or medicine person will come to you, you will not need to seek them out, thats the way of things. Sit,Be still with these things, spend time with mother earth, nature and above all LISTEN.  What you will learn will be free, Don't go seeking these newage teachings.    WADO

[Ken]

'siyo Ken,

welcome to the site.
After reading your post I had to give it a lot of thought.Having been in the medical profession for many years i have heard of many near death experiences and yes many speak of a new spiritual awareness.

When did this experience happen?? ? Where did the word shaman come from? Be cautious?? Be sure you are listening to what is right. Did this vision you had say for you to be a shaman?? You really need to question that?

Whatever you choose to do, it's a personal journey for you. Sit with that, listen to your heart. If it's to be ,a Elder or medicine person will come to you, you will not need to seek them out, thats the way of things. Sit,Be still with these things, spend time with mother earth, nature and above all LISTEN. ? What you will learn will be free, Don't go seeking these newage teachings. ?  ? WADO

I agree wholeheartedly.  My experience was in 1996.  Feeling the need to be involved in healing came last year.  The term "shaman" was not part of that vision, it is a convenient term of communication only.  My first experience of being with the earth was soon after my experience.  After months in a wheelchair I felt the desire to take up fly fishing.  I taught my self and headed up into the mountain streams of Virginia.  Using a cane to steady myself in the clear cold mountain streams my crushed leg healed far beyond my surgeon's best hopes.  To this day I feel a strong bond with the Appalachian Brook trout, a beautiful little fish that survived the last Ice Age.  They are survivors and taught me to survive despite seemingly insurmountable pain and hardship.  The vision to be a healer is the third of four visions that are related.  Visions are something I have not been prone to in life and were something I considered the results of delusions until my experience.

[yellowthunder_bolt]

Hi Ken,

I am very concerned about all the info you are sharing. My concern lies in the fact that there are so many, frauds and sleezy people who watch these boards waiting for someone who may be confused as to what is going on in there life and will trie to pull you into a dangerous situation.  
BE VER CAUTIOUS MY FRIEND..

What walking-soft said is very wise. Helping others with healing can come in many forms. Anyone calling themselves a shaman is a phoney nor will you hear a Holy Man, Medicine man ever tell you they are one. You say you came up with the word shaman, please take that out of your vocabulary that in its self is the wrong path.
                                           Wado Thomas

[Ken]

Hi Ken,

I am very concerned about all the info you are sharing. My concern lies in the fact that there are so many, frauds and sleezy people who watch these boards waiting for someone who may be confused as to what is going on in there life and will trie to pull you into a dangerous situation. ?  
BE VER CAUTIOUS MY FRIEND..

What walking-soft said is very wise. Helping others with healing can come in many forms. Anyone calling themselves a shaman is a phoney nor will you hear a Holy Man, Medicine man ever tell you they are one. You say you came up with the word shaman, please take that out of your vocabulary that in its self is the wrong path.
 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? Wado Thomas

Thanks, I understand where you're coming from.  The word "shaman" has become one of those easy-to-use cliche's to incorporate a lot of things.  I understand how each culture has names for its healers and I guess what I didn't want to do was to say I want to learn from XXXXXX healers or from YYYYYY healers.  I really didn't want to limit my learning.  Learning in life never ends and I didn't want to miss opportunities by casting boundaries!  Now the other quandry, not to use "shaman" and yet not to be specific to a cultural name!  

[Barnaby_McEwan]

The term "shamanism" is only a name (Siberian origin from what I understand) but the practice is known back into the Paleolithic period based in interpretations of the French cave drawings.  Also, many same or similar practices appear world-wide in many cultures in many countries.  Rituals may differ but the intent remains constant.

The existence of shamanism is inferred, not known, from things like rock art, but that inference is based on racist assumptions about 'primitive' people. I can see you're familiar with the basic ideology of shamanism: I'd urge you to read some of the critical books I've listed.

This is Alice Kehoe, cited above, pp 71-72:

Years ago, when I was living on an Indian reservation in Montana, an elderly lady told me that when she was a child on the Gros Ventre Reservation in the eastern part of the state, her family met two other families every summer to spend about a week berry-picking. [...] The Gros Ventre elder recounted that it would happen that one family arrived at the rendesvous, a prominent landmark cliff, several days before the others, and to pass the time, the waiting children liked to draw and peck pictures on the rock face. [...] Debate rages [among archaeologists] over a proposition that all paintings and petroglyphs [...] attributable to ancient and to contemporary hunter-gatherers are attempts by shamans to depict what they see in trance. Proponents of this theory are convinced that all these paintings and pecked-rock pictures come out of religious beliefs that contrast with our Western religions: beliefs in spirit animals hallucinated by shamans. Cultural primitivism! Arthur Lovejoy and George Boas would have shouted. [...] In other words, here again is the hoary Western assumption that if you aren't a literate, city-dwelling citizen of a major nation, then you are unsophisticated, emotional, primitive, and unable to figure out the difference between dreams, hallucinations, and reality. There's no room in these grand theories for children making pictures to pass the time while their mamas are picking berries.

[Ken]

The existence of shamanism is inferred, not known, from things like rock art, but that inference is based on racist assumptions about 'primitive' people. I can see you're familiar with the basic ideology of shamanism: I'd urge you to read some of the critical books I've listed.

This is Alice Kehoe, cited above, pp 71-72:

I agree that most all the anthropological studies I've read discuss "primitive people" or "superstitious cultures."  I would disagree this is largely racist and say it is more egocentric and cultural elitism.  Just like the aftermath of wars, the ones doing the writing design the history.  That being said I can also see the usefulness of some of this writing as it does convey some useful information even with its cultural bias.  Not to be facetious but I'm sitting here now thinking of that TV commercial based on "So simple even a CAVEMAN can do it!"

[walking-soft]

An Elder Pueblo once said the following: many non-indians come looking for something. They do not realize it's like going to plant a seed, you put that seed in there and then you take care of it. You water it and nuture it, give it love and everything. Then it grows into a plant.

Ken I believe that is where you have to start. The seeds have been planted and now it's time to start over, simply take care of you, water what has been given you and nuture it, give love and after a while, maybe a long while it will start to grow. Patients.....

Many Elders have taught non-indians and given them directions, but as soon as the non-indian people receive those instructions, they think they are qualified to do sweat lodge. So they go ahead and do it without really understanding the process of how thew spirits come in. So this make the Elders and all natives so afraid for people who know very little about these things. Sometimes it's not good spirits or visions that come in. So Ken you can see why the concern for you.

I said all that to say this Ken. The American society is, is you seperate and you label everything. You've got to have a term for this, and so words that are created are really big words like shaman, or all these other new age terms denoting some link to American Indian but in fact is not.

Ken why do you need to label, why not just be. Go about your life quietly. We have what is called Indian Time, it will happen when its suppose to if at all.                                     wado

[Ken]

Ken why do you need to label, why not just be. Go about your life quietly. We have what is called Indian Time, it will happen when its suppose to if at all. ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  wado

That is pretty much where I'm coming to. In one of my favorite SciFi books the character Michael Valentine Smith says "When waiting is fulfilled."  

[Ganieda]

I haven't read this book, and I doubt you have after seeing its list price at amazon.

Mr. McEwan, once again you jump to conclusions and make assumptions.  The link you posted for the book "The Archeology of Shamanism" is ridiculous.  This book is also available for much less cost, not to mention that anyone can find it thro a library system.  

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415252555/qid=1143324190/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3484703-1847927?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

...sought to identify a pagan religion towards the overthrow of which they could concentrate their efforts.

According to that author anthropologists and missionaries developed the concept of shamanism.

They didn't develop the concept, they needed to identify a religion, so they gave it a name.  You can't very well overthrow something if it does not exist.  It did exist, (although most of the beliefs would more properly be termed "animism"), so "shamanism" is the name they gave it as there was no other term to describe it or to use to communicate the idea.  

Also, you seem to be obsessed with the book "Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exercise in Critical Thinking" by Alice Beck Kehoe.  I'm wondering if you have ever read any of her other books as well?  For example, perhaps, "The Ghost Dance: Ethnohistory and Revitalization".  It's a fascinating book.