Author Topic: APOLOGIES  (Read 30782 times)

Offline Diana

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APOLOGIES
« on: June 22, 2012, 01:10:27 am »
As some of you may or not know that Gwaewael person has been banned. Because of her racist, insulting and abhorrent behavior she was politely asked to leave and mechanisms have been put in place so she cannot re-register or come back in any capacity. I for one am finally breathing a sigh of relief. But the real reason I'm posting is my utter disgust at all the white people who rallied around that batcrap crazy white woman. I am outraged at your behavior and some of you who haven't even posted here in a couple of years were encouraging that heinous white devil to not go away after she spewed her racist diatribes and had childish melt downs. I won't name names but you know who you are. You callous and entitled white people owe all the Indians on this forum an official apology. I hope all you white people take a long look at your actions these past few days and really think about how you have hurt the Indians on this forum.



Lim lemtsh,

Diana



« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 01:52:21 am by Diana »

Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2012, 03:00:00 am »
I do not support racism, nor do I support her. I tend to think she really is mentally ill.

I will not apologize for having compassion. But I am sorry that my compassion towards
her, hurt you.

Yes, I yelled at the woman and was outraged, then apologized for calling her a name. Because
after anger settled away, I felt bad for calling a name. So I apologized to her for it. I didn't feel
bad about telling her she was appalling, just for what I called her and that was all I apologized for.

I always try to help someone understand that they are wrong when they are being stupid or
racist, and I will try to support them while they fumble around deaf, dumb, and blind. I will give my
best effort to explain it to them. And if they just don't get it, if failing that effort, I stop. My last
effort was the long post I posted. And, I never told her to stay, I was telling her to leave, if even
for a few weeks or months, in hopes she may "get it".

Making that effort hurt people here. Was callous and I will have to gauge and be discriminate
in deciding whether effort of that nature is worthy in the future. A lesson learned.

And yes, I felt entitled as a human being to try and reach another to show them what they
were doing. I felt that that is something a human being does. So I felt entitled to do so, as a human.

I guess part of me still believes that people can open their eyes and see the stupid racist ways
they've been acting if given some help in that endeavor. I don't want to lose that hope.

I also believe she was lying, and I wanted her to admit it, I wanted her to stumble and say
it. Someone got her to admit she had an agenda when she came here. I wanted her to admit
more. I wanted her to admit her lies.

I am sorry my focus on her took my focus off of the people who were being hurt, and I do honestly
apologize.

If you should decide to ban me I accept that but I will continue to try and educate people about
the many frauds and scams and racism. And, continue to support the effort here and elsewhere to
stop abuse and misappropriation of any people's ways, cultures, and spiritual beliefs.











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Offline clearwater

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2012, 06:10:22 am »
Diana's anger is directed at me, pretty much exclusively. Yes, I know who I am.

That whole episode struck me as very odd. I described how I came to stumble upon that thread, in the thread itself. And yes, I too noticed it was the white folks who came to her "comfort" but I did not notice that until after the fact.

The reasons I came to this board a few years ago are pretty well known to the moderators of this board. I have never tried to hide behind any identity. They have my name and phone number. I suppose the original reasons I came to the board have been exhausted.

No one reached out to me in public or private to slap me down, which is always welcomed. I'm not going to shirk my obligations to do the right thing here though. I suppose that my "white privilege" is keeping me blind here.

Clearly the lady had mental issues. I do think I far overstepped my bounds when I suggested she should stay, and I really think I overstepped boundaries when I thanked for for her participation. I should have completed the sentence, and thanks her for participating in her own life, finally. But that's just playing with words.

I came to this forum a few years back because I had first hand experience with a fraudulent priest in the Native American Church, who solicited white folks (and only white folks) like me decades ago, and pounded them pretty heavily with peyote, until his recent death. I was 17 years old when that started, and 28 years old when I was able to finally leave that group. That man was not Indian yet claimed Indian heritage and has done real considerable damage to lots of people. The damage he has done is far beyond hurting someone's feelings. He stole from Indian culture and religion, practiced his craft on young stupid white students, screwed up a lot of people's heads, then would dump them. And he did that for decades. That stuff can be easily established. That thread is still live in the "Research Needed" area. In many ways, my limbo status is reflected there. I would tend to believe that someone like that has done far more damage to Indians, than my participation in that one thread for one day. I left that group in 1988+/- and that priest has since died, and no priest has stepped up to take over that church, which is still ongoing entity there. I'm just wondering why that is allowed a free pass, so to speak.

I remember one time in particular, that priest organized a pow wow in Lake Lure, NC in the early 1980s. Prior to that pow wow he contacted all the local media. I can link to a newspaper article that names me by name, at that pow wow (the article has since been scanned into the google archives). The article falsely says I was an Academy Award winning Native American filmmaker, which was all a lie he told the media. I'm not Native American, and I have not won an Academy Award. Yet there it is, in print, with my name on it, according to that "priest." (That I feel is far more damaging that what I have done here.) I didn't even know he did that until I found that article online, scanned into google's archives. At that pow wow, that priest instructed me and everyone there to do all these Indian dances. I had never done that before, or since, and it was all for public show, and I was embarrassed as hell to be doing that. I did not feel even then, it was my place to do so. Since leaving in 1988 I have not participated in any Indian event, ceremony, or anything. I do not wear jewelry or try to be something I am not. I am not Indian. I don't try to be Indian. I do not speak for Indians, or defend them if attacked or misunderstood (they do well without my help). I am white and that is the culture I come from. Yet, I do not claim to speak for the white race. I cannot do that. They are too screwed up for me to want to even try LOL.

So, I told my story in that ongoing thread. My original reason for being here in this forum has long since past. I have no problem accepting that truth.

I apologize if my participation has offended. I can see that and accept that. I hope you can find a way to let go of this anger that you feel towards me, it does you or me no good for you to feel that way. It's clear I don't belong here if my thinking and actions offend. You have stated yourself very well, and I get the message. No problems here Diana. I am sincerely sorry.

So yes, I apologize to the NAFPS forum and all its members and participants. I agree with you Diana. You are correct in your assessment. But I can only apologize for myself and my own participation in that thread. I cannot apologize for all white people who participated, or the whole white race. I can speak only for myself, and my own actions, or at least try.

While I did d=suggest she should stick around, you will also see in that thread, where I busted her repeatedly for coming in under false pretenses. It's ther for all to see. I took her to task pretty well. I sniffed a lot of B.S. in her posts and called her out on that. I will certainly no apologize for calling her out. But that's where I should have stopped. I think my main problem, is I don't know when enough is enough!

But I suppose I wonder how having compassion for another human being (even when they're nuts) causes hurt in you, so I won't try to wonder. I'll take your word for it. I will absorb that and take it to heart. Clearly, I did not do my job, and did not fully understand the history involved. I clearly am a poor ally and for that I am sorry. That lady was clearly disturbed and out to lunch, so to speak. Yes, I should have shut up, and sat down.

So I will do that now.

Moderators, I defer to your decision(s). If you feel the need to lock my account, please go ahead and do so. I have no problem with that and will not feel offended if I am locked out. If I am allowed to remain, all I can say is, I will do better. But to me, it's clear my reason for being here has long past. My story has already been told. I have helped elsewhere in this forum where I could (dong research, offering archive materials, things like that) but I am not an ongoing active participant, true. Any goodwill seems to have gone out the window with one day's participation in that one thread. I have no problem with seeing that and accepting that truth. If my ongoing participation causes distress and hurt feelings, that clearly is the last thing I wish to see as a result of my participation in anything. It's past time for me to go.

Diana, you do not know me in real life. You only know me through my words, and online deeds. I hope you can accept my heartfelt apology and release your anger towards me. No harm or foul intended. I hope you can see the truth in my statements here, which I offer sincerely and fully.

Talk about lessons learned!

Many Thanks to you, and Many Blessings.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 07:02:47 am by clearwater »

Offline nemesis

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2012, 09:01:54 am »
This person was extremely mentally unwell and I think in some ways reflected very accurately the kind of people who get taken in by newage predators, as they do tend to prey on mentally ill and otherwise vulnerable adults.

While her outpourings were indeed racist I do not think that challenging a seriously mentally ill and obviously mentally fragile woman about her racism in a confrontational way is going to help her to be less racist.  All it is likely to achieve is to push her back into the clutches of various predators and abusers with her racism not only intact but further consolidated by the experience.

Of course you can say "so what? Is it our job to protect mentally ill racists from predators?" and, of course, each person has to be clear about his or her own aims and objectives.

For me, just speaking personally, protecting mentally ill people from predators is one important aspect of what I do.  I try my best to challenge racism but working out how to actually do it when someone is very mentally unwell, well that is another thing entirely.

I think it is a very difficult situation and although I would have valued the opportunity to try to help the woman gain some insights into her racism and her other behaviour, this would take time and there are no guarantees.  I appreciate that an internet forum for challenging racism and cultural appropriation may not be the best place to do this and I was unsurprised by her banning.  

I initially felt surprised by this thread.  The most prolific NDN poster on the thread, Earth, appeared to be extremely kind and supportive to the woman and sky had posted in a very supportive and restrained way - at least that's how it looked to me.  

Of course we cannot know what other people who are not posting here think, although the banning makes it clear that people are, understandably, upset and angry.  

I think I'm saying that it did not look to me as though it was only white people being supportive to her.

I did not read all the posts on the thread (possibly a big mistake) but what I saw before I posted was an extremely fragile and unwell woman engaging with other posters in a fairly sadomasochistic way.  She was posting stuff that had sadistic elements to it (I think that the racist stuff felt sadistic to me) and then reacting like a martyr when challenged in the robust way that sadistic attacks tend to invoke.

For me the thread had 2 halves - before and after the announcement of mental illness, and I think it is important to notice this.
It was my feeling that people on the thread, native and not native, were showing a very kind and compassionate side once that Gwaewael had been honest and open about her mental illness.  

To be honest I did doubt whether this was a good place for her, simply because her views are so offensive and delivered with such  crashing insensitivity, however (I'll say it again) she clearly has a fragile grasp on reality and is obviously unable to process any direct criticism or challenges.

It would have been wonderful to be able to help someone that unwell to actually gain insight into their inner world and to help them to be more sensitive, respectful and frankly less racist, however I can appreciate why this forum is not the place for it.

I hope that she finds the help that she needs and I am genuinely sorry if upset anyone.  



« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 09:47:36 am by nemesis »

Offline earthw7

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2012, 02:29:39 pm »
I have had to learn patience in my life and it has been hard :(
my grandma always said patience will win the world so i try, 8)
Compassion is our way but we are warriors in the end and will fight.
My job is too educate the best way i can; sometime i fail  :'( and it is
all right, because grandma says it take a long time to change and some
time it is just one word someone said, that will change the world, so keep
talking, maybe that one word 20 years from now will change the world or just
one persons view. It is hard to try and educate when a person refuses to
listen and that what happens with some people is they believe that no matter
what they are right as some call it "White Privage" but i see a little in
all races where people have had hard time accepting or listen to anothers
cultural ways. This is what is happening with all these people who want to follow
our ways and think they have the right to do that.
This woman in which the post is about did not want to learn and refuse to see the
lesson people put forward.
I want to thank the people here who stand up for our people
In Spirit

Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2012, 03:16:50 pm »
Diana's post has been in my mind, and swirling about my heart since posted.

I understand that there are rifts, major, large, perhaps completely irreparable
rifts between the races.

I don't blame Diana or anyone for their outrage. No one should have to be
subjected to the blatant racism that that woman displayed. But I wasn't being
kind to a racist because I'm white. I was being kind because that's what I
believe in being.

I feel terrible for hurting so many people, and yet, I feel it was right to be kind.
Especially to a person who was obviously mentally handicapped, who did not have
the capacity to think, or be well or fair or reasonable or anything other than what
she was taught to be from the sick society of America.

I'm sorry I hurt you, but I can't apologize for being kind.

I don't know how to resolve that. If I'm going to hurt the people here because
I believe in trying to be kind to all people, then I should not be here. And if my
trying to be kind to all people is seen as white entitlement, or privilege or some
thing else regarding racism, then I'm at a loss here, and I should not be here.

I'm taking leave for a while, but will come back to be a lurker at some time, so
I can keep up with who the frauds are.

Be well.



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Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2012, 05:59:09 pm »
See, for me, the mental illness admission did not change things. For one thing, I have zero confidence that she ever told us the truth. About anything. She came here with an agenda, and she disrupted the forum. She was happy to disrupt the forum and she never had any intention of helping with the work we do here.

As I said to Gwaewael in private, mental illness doesn't change the fact that she still has to abide by forum guidelines. I asked her to please apologize to those she had insulted, and to stop insulting people. Instead she chose to leave.

I agree completely that one of our aims here is to help keep vulnerable people from being exploited. But I don't believe we do that by enabling abusive racists. Abuse survivors who come to the forum and see that kind of sadomasochistic bs going on don't feel welcome, they feel triggered. Gwaewael was not asking for help with having been abused or exploited. She said none of those things have happened to her. She wanted attention and to attack people in a sadomasochistic way. She admitted she wants to learn how to manipulate NDNs, and to pick up some tricks about how to disguise her intentions. So to me, that says she was here to harm NDNs, and to learn how to be more stealthy in doing harm. That is absolutely unacceptable to me. It also leads me to think that she could have the type of disorder that simply cannot be fixed, not by talk therapy and not even by medication. But even if all she needs is therapy and meds, we are not her therapists and I think it would ultimately be unhelpful to her to lead her to believe that an internet forum of strangers is the place to go for that. And again, I don't believe she really wants help; I think she just wanted to disrupt. I have seen a number of communities make life hell for the good members by refusing to set limits on abusers. Gwaewael was acting abusively. She was given ample chance to change, and she chose to leave rather than apologize or change.

As the situation developed, I was saddened to see that almost everyone who asked her to stay is white. In private communications, almost everyone who wanted her banned, is NDN. Think about that.

While some of you who are non-Native, who posted in that thread, do contribute helpfully and well to our work here (and I for one am grateful for that), other non-Natives came out of the woodwork to encourage her to stay. That was shocking to me. While some of the lurkers who wanted her to stay may not have realized it, it gave me the impression that those posters care more about comforting abusive racists, and welcoming abusers to come and disrupt our work and our community, than they do about fighting abuse of NDNs and NDN ways.

This clear racial divide, happening here, made me feel physically sick to my stomach. While we also cover other kinds of exploitative spiritual leaders here, at heart, and at root, this is a forum about protecting NDN traditions. Allowing abusive racists here, racists who only want attention and show zero signs of ever changing to help with this work, is offensive to our very purpose.

When a white person says, "I wasn't acting this way because I'm white, I was doing it because..."  I have to say: "You have no way of knowing if it's because you are white. You don't know what it's like to see the world any other way."  Hopefully through sharing your life with friends and family who are not white you can gain empathy and understanding of their experience, but you will never really know what it's like to live in the world as someone who is not white. This is because you can always take a break, and walk around as a white person. So even if you try some sort of "Black Like Me" experiment where you pass as another race, you would do it knowing that you can always take off the disguise and go back to who you are. No matter how much time I spend as the token white grrrl, I am still white. My experience will always be different from my friends who can't pass.

One other small thing that has led me to some understanding of what my NDN friends go through is that, online, I have sometimes been mistaken for NDN. If I'm hanging out in a group where everyone knows me, I don't always remember to immediately self-identify when a new person shows up. I try, but it's not the first thing I think of when I'm with friends and family. So I have had white people treat me in really bizarre ways, projecting onto me the same romantic stereotypes or condescending racist attitudes that my friends deal with all the time. Then I tell them I'm white and their behaviour changes.  ::) Again, with one simple declaration I can change how I'm treated. This is white privilege. I have it; every person who passes as white has it. The only way we will begin to overcome it is with work, with diligently observing our own behaviour, and with humbly listening to what NDNs and other people of color have to say about how we act.

As I've said in the private discussions that have run parallel to the public debacle set off by this incident, For me, the only way to salvage the time and energy that was wasted on dealing with this disruption is if it provides an opportunity for the non-Natives here to learn more about racism and privilege. I hope we are doing that.

Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2012, 06:58:40 pm »
I don't believe she should have stayed. And I agree she should have apologized. But I don't believe
she ever would have. And I agree with her being banned.

But I believe in being kind. And I will always be that, or try to. Even when I miss the mark of being
kind I will come back and apologize for it.

It has nothing to do with me being white. You can believe it does, but you were not there in my
childhood. You were not there to see the things I've lived, I've experienced, and learned that
created my beliefs and views. I couldn't leave where my childhood was, well, ok, so there were
options, suicide, running away and living in the street, or killing all of them. Or, stay and work
with what I was being taught. And yes, I considered all of those options. Did I choose correctly
to stay? To not suicide or kill them? I think so.. and what you think of that, what prejudices
you want to place on me is entirely up to you, but doesn't mean it's correct.

I was taught to always be kind, especially to the mean and horrible people in the world. That is
white privilege in your eyes and I accept that that is your view, and actually it confirms to me
that my decision to leave the forum is the correct choice.

Because the only things I have left in my life, are the things I was taught, and have learned.
And being kind is one of those things. I'm not going to set it on the curb just to participate here.
Which means, I'd be hurting the people here if I participate in discussion and am kind to some
jackass fraud. And, I'd be accused of white privilege time and again, accused of racism for
being kind as I was taught to be.

Yes, I hope everyone learns something about racism and privilege.  

Oh, and I am in no way saying my childhood was the same as the generations of abuse that
other peoples have had to endure. This is not a contest of abuse experiences.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 07:00:49 pm by critter - a white non-ndn person »
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Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2012, 07:52:59 pm »
But I believe in being kind. And I will always be that, or try to. Even when I miss the mark of being
kind I will come back and apologize for it.

It has nothing to do with me being white. You can believe it does,

I didn't say white privilege makes people kind. Far from it. I said those of us with white privilege don't know what it's like to live without white privilege.

Pretty much everyone I know has overcome severe hardships. Most of my friends have survived abuse.  Some people talk about it openly, others do not. Some people learn from their abuse to make sure it never happens to another, others just go on to perpetuate the abuse.

I believe in kindness. It is kindness to the community to keep abusive people out. My priority is the community.

Offline clearwater

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2012, 08:00:26 pm »
Well, it's all good.

Regarding "White Privilege" all I can say is, white folks tend to feast on themselves when they stop feasting on others. It's vastly different to be poor white, than rich white.

Kathryn, you mention "Black Like Me" experiments. No one has ever tried white experiments. I have endured hatred from black folks in my life who seem to think that because I am white, that my ancestors owned slaves. Somehow in their thinking, I am at fault because as a matter of history, whites owned blacks. That is a very broad brush stroke, and is not truthful. For example, my white ancestors were poor sharecroppers, and were treated accordingly. Yet, the hatred remains the same.

Hatred comes in all colors. White, Red, Black and Yellow. No race has an exclusive on hatred. Broad brush strokes are just that. And that's a pretty broad stroke you just painted there, Kathryn.

There is a difference between what here is called "white privilege" and human privilege, or acting from a common center of humanity. There is no exclusive right to compassion and understanding by any race. No one here can tell me I can't extend my hand to you in friendship. You may cut it off if I do, but you can't tell me in life, that I cannot do that. With all due respect, no human being can tell another something like that.

I have reached out to Diana, and two moderators, in private, and of course I don't expect to hear back, and I suppose that too can be considered white privilege, for who am I to even talk to these folks? Well, I am me. That's all. I am me. Not some plastic person someone else wanted me to be, years ago.

But this is an internet forum. It's not "in real life" in the sense that you and I are sitting in the same room, where you can see me, and I can see you. I do know my participation in this forum has never been from a center of hatred. No one can point to that anywhere in any post I have ever made here that remotely resembles that. Every post I have made has been to either share my personal experience with thieves of Indian culture that I know about, has been to offer research in particular threads from time to time, and to truly try to be helpful whenever else I can. And to learn. I've learned a good lesson here. I did far overstep the boundaries that are acceptable to this forum, and I can certainly respect that. No need to hang around where you're not welcome. No problems.

Sorry to have offended. That was not the intention. But all I can control is how I intended my words and actions. I have no control over how they have been received.

My priority is the community as well. Kathryn, please go ahead and lock my account. I'm good with that. My initial reason for coming to this forum has past.

Blessings to all of you. And to all be well.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2012, 08:19:42 pm »
I don't understand what you think was the broad brush stroke. No one has requested that you be banned, clearwater.

Offline clearwater

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2012, 08:49:04 pm »
I don't understand what you think was the broad brush stroke. No one has requested that you be banned, clearwater.

LOL. It's all good. I just made the request. I am banishing myself from this forum.

There is no animosity at all or hard feelings that I hold, and none that I am receiving from anyone. It's not that.

I came here for a reason the other day. I described that very well in the thread with has caused such distress. Once I arrived, and read that stuff I read coming from her. I felt there was work for me to do there. I did that. I do not question that inside of myself. No longer do I question that. I am not a healer, but I see what I see, know what I know, and do what I do. No one taught me this stuff, I just am. I need not ask permission, or approval or acceptance, for that from anyone, anywhere. It is my responsibility, though to keep it in check. The dynamic changed for that poor crazy lady, when I entered the thread. It's there for you to see. I too don't think she was being truthful, but she herself did not know that. I will not apologize for cracking her nutty shell. She needed to be popped like that. I saw what I saw, I did what I did, and that is human, it is not white.

I acted like a small steamroller, however, and in that, I do see that I acted somewhat in disrespect for this forum. Like critter said above, I too focused on that event, over the wellbeing of the whole forum. That's an infraction in my view. I did not see it then, but I did have a suspended question about her, and her being here. But her distress, self-inflicted as it was, was in the moment. That very moment. That poor nutty lady was about to lose it. Who cares? I do, but only in the sense that it was here already, when I arrived, to be seen and acted upon. I didn't bring her crap here -- she did. I was just hitting it like anyone else here would do, in my own goofy way. I admit here, I did not fully do my homework. I should have. Yet I acted anyway. Is that white privilege? I am told it is, in Diana's opening post, and that I can never know anything but white privilege, by you. That's the broad stoke I refer to. I disagree with you both. I think all people, regardless of where they come from, share basic things in common. But again, who care what I think? That is not the purpose of this forum. This is not a place for healing. It is a place for investigation, and vetting exploitation of culture. I know that, and that has been pointed out to me here. I even told that nutty lady the same thing, after she was trying to bait me and others into conversations about mental illness. Not gonna bite that bait.

For me personally, whatever work I had to do, or experience I needed to filter, has been done. For all those here, I truly appreciate the kindness and support that has been shown me, in that NAC thread I referred to. That was a very painful time in my life, and I am not fully healed from that yet. But I'm a big boy, I'll survive!

My suggestion would be to the moderators of this forum, please just lock threads that turn into this kind of stuff. Nip it in the bud, before it grow into hurt feelings.

Again, my intentions have been to help, to learn, and to be true to myself in the process. Through all of this, I have to say, I have a very clear heart, mind and conscience on all of this. None of what has transpired here, or my participation in it, or this thread, has caused me any grief or discomfort at all. It is all correct, and good. I am clear on all this. It's all good. There are many lessons to be learned, and I will tell you, it's not just white folks that have learning to do, lessons to learn.

This is just the right thing to do. Please lock my account.

Again, Many Thanks to you all, and Many Blessings. Please accept truth in that.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 08:50:42 pm by clearwater »

Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2012, 09:22:16 pm »
But I believe in being kind. And I will always be that, or try to. Even when I miss the mark of being
kind I will come back and apologize for it.

It has nothing to do with me being white. You can believe it does,
I didn't say white privilege makes people kind. Far from it. I said those of us with white privilege don't know what it's like to live without white privilege.

Well, I read this:

When a white person says, "I wasn't acting this way because I'm white, I was doing it because..."  I have to say: "You have no way of knowing if it's because you are white. You don't know what it's like to see the world any other way."

The blank to be filled would be my words, "because that's what I believe in".



Pretty much everyone I know has overcome severe hardships. Most of my friends have survived abuse.  Some people talk about it openly, others do not. Some people learn from their abuse to make sure it never happens to another, others just go on to perpetuate the abuse.

That's great for those of your friends who have over come. Hopefully they will help the world be
a better place. And for those who haven't, hopefully kindness will find them.


I believe in kindness. It is kindness to the community to keep abusive people out. My priority is the community.

As I've stated I agree she had to be banned. But while she was here, I was going to show
her kindness, and that is also what I will show any one who comes here. Which is why I am
leaving as a participator. Because I will be kind to jerks, and that will cause hurt feelings to
others and also, accusations against my self.

I agree with Clearwater in that it's all ok.. no need here for any hurt feelings among the
board members. I'm not hurt or hurting. And hopefully, my apology to the board will ease
any hurt I caused them.

But I am making a decision about my participation here, because I care about the people here
and I do not want to hurt them, but I cannot, and will not, not live on what I have been taught.
To be kind, especially to the very mean and horrible.

So, if a horrible fraud comes here, and I show them kindness, I will also be hurting people. And
I can't resolve that. Either I don't live what I was taught, or I hurt people. I can't resolve it.
So I am withdraw from participating.

It's the best option for everyone all around. :) I honestly love the people I've met here and I am
not going to do things to hurt them. By withdrawing in participation, I will not hurt them, and I
also will not be going against my core beliefs. :)

I can and will still check in here and read on the frauds and spread the word about them and
about cultural appropriation and the harm that it does.

Be well.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 09:34:46 pm by critter - a white non-ndn person »
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Offline Ingeborg

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2012, 12:18:37 am »
Because the only things I have left in my life, are the things I was taught, and have learned.

Critter, one of the things we will have been taught and will have learned in our life as white persons is white privilege. From childhood on. It takes efforts to leave that behind. We do have to make choices later in life about what to keep and what to discard about certain things we were brought up with. Simply being a member of this board does not instantly clean us of every concept we've adapted or grown into; it takes more than that to be an ally.

Quote
I was taught to always be kind, especially to the mean and horrible people in the world. That is white privilege in your eyes and I accept that that is your view, and actually it confirms to me that my decision to leave the forum is the correct choice.

No, being kind per se is not white privilege. Being kind to a person who insist on their white privilege and is abusing friends, colleagues who happen to be ndn may, however, not go down well with everyone. Racism and racist persons disrupt a community, and society, so I think there is no point in being kind to them, as they will take it as support of their views and ideas, and their agenda.

In my view, racist and supremacist agendas must be fought against, and sometimes this includes fighting against the persons coming in with such an agenda. If and when someone comes in kicking people's behinds, especially when the behinds are chosen according to their colour, one does not smile and treat such a person kindly.

Friends, colleagues, neighbours - hell, everybody can expect support in the face of racism and racist attacks. The situation created in such instances is quite simple - as my grandmother used to say: this is not the time for pursed lips, it's time to start whistling.

We were born into white privilege and we will not be judged by our ability to purse our lips - we will be judged by the tune we whistle.


Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2012, 01:40:06 am »
That's great. I will be judged for being kind.

Kindness isn't the same as accepting. It's simply treating the angst with something
other than more angst.

I have my own ways, it's not privilege, if it was ALL white people would be so kind..

You have your ways, that's fine. You need to live how you believe, just as I need to
live as I believe.

Now, I wasn't planning on coming back to post more here, but I did for this and I
will not anymore.

If people don't understand well, then they don't understand. But as an ally, I can not
be expected to put aside the way I live my life, for you. This doesn't mean I don't
agree with your fight, it just means I fight differently.

Be well.

edited: Oh, just wanted to be clear, I don't believe the forum is supposed to cater
to people like that lady. Nor do I believe she should have been allowed to stay, I
agree banning her was the thing to do. I'm just saying that I can't apologize for
being kind to her, and that I will be kind to everyone who comes here, and that
is why I am exiting.. because it is hurtful to others, and I don't want to hurt anyone
anymore than I have, or anymore in the future.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 01:58:24 am by critter - a white non-ndn person »
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