Author Topic: APOLOGIES  (Read 31834 times)

Offline Diana

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2012, 03:21:27 am »
Heavy sigh....right now I don't know what to think. First of all, I want to thank everyone for their NON-APOLOGIES (sarcasm) You people who supported that Gwaewael are unbelievable. I don't know who's worst you or a mentally unbalanced racist. At least that Gwaewael was upfront about her racism. You knew where she was coming from and you knew where you stood with her. I can't say that about her supporters. Your whiny excuses and heel dragging when asked to apologize are appalling. Not only did any of you really apologized you turned this whole debacle around and made all about yourselves. You posted at length about your cheesy little lives and continued to sing Gawelwel praises. Well, like all of you told that crazy woman let this be a lesson and learn from it. Please!!


Lim lemtsh,

Diana

Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2012, 04:09:37 am »
I have apologized more than once. If the apology is not accepted I can't do anything
about that.  I have apologized for hurting the people here.

I have even excused myself from the forum because I will not allow myself to hurt the people
here again. Which will be inevitable if I stay because I believe in being kind to ALL people,
especially those who are the worst among humanity. It is my belief. I do not need to defend it,
nor expound on it. It could just be accepted that I believe differently than you and am trying
to do something decent by leaving so as not to hurt anyone again.

No where in my posts was I anywhere near singing that woman's praises. Or supporting her.
I do see where I was trying to show her her racism in a kind way.  I do not believe this
forum is supposed to be about that, but here she was and she was posting, so I was
responding. Just because a person reacts in a kind way doesn't mean they support or are
singing praises. And I have apologized for that as well. For allowing my focus to be on her
and not on the people here and the forum. I am human, I make mistakes. I have told
you that I know I was callous and I have apologized for it.

I have stated very clearly that I agree she should have been banned. Actually, I believe
she should have been banned before I lashed in anger. Why she wasn't, I don't know.

I am truly sorry that I am unable to write any clearer so that you won't feel that you
don't know where I stand. I'm just not able to be any clearer than I have been.

I wish everyone well. Yes, I came back again, of course, I did. After reading Diana's last
post I had to, because I want everyone to know that I apologized, and will apologize again.
I can't do anything more than to say that I am sorry. I honestly love the people I have met
here and I in no way want to hurt any of you.

I recognize that being kind to the racist crap you have to deal with is hurtful to you, but
I cannot walk away from what I was taught, from my core beliefs on how to live. So I am
not going to be a part of the participation in this forum. So that I may never hurt any of
you again.

I will lurk, read on the frauds, help spread the word and help to educate people wherever I can
about the harm of cultural theft and misappropriation.

I don't know how to be more upfront or clear than that. I do hope some of you accept my
apology, but I can't do anything more than offer it.

Be well.

edited:  Because I am a simple human and cannot reach to everyone to ensure you all know
my apology is heartfelt.. I am giving the apology in my heart to Spirit and ask that Spirit
delivers it to you in all in a very good way, with humbleness and love, and sorrow in my heart,
in the way that I sincerely feel it and want to give of it.

I cannot continue on this thread .. I cannot keep coming back here trying to give my apology
and give my promise of never doing it again. So I am giving it to Spirit and the apology and the
promise are for all to see, feel, or hear in however way Spirit brings it to them.

Much love and the best of wishes... I am sorry.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 04:29:04 am by critter - a white non-ndn person »
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Offline Diana

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2012, 04:52:03 am »
I don't know, maybe this will help. Also It is my understanding that a sincere apology goes a long ways.




The 4 R’s of an apology.
 

 •Recognition: knowing when an apology is in order. An apology needs to ensure that the injured party knows that you understand specifically what you did wrong.

 •Regret: responding empathetically. This is an indication that you accept personal responsibility for the injury. Here it is important to remember that an expression of regret is not an admission of guilt or fault.

 •Responsibility: owning up to what’s happened. Be accountable for the problem, even if it was unforeseeable. This is the part where most apologies end up being partial expressions of regret, impoverished by exceptions and ‘but’ statements. A bad apology is worse than no apology at all.

 •Remedy: making it right. Explain to what’s being done to correct the problem and express your commitment to not make the same mistake in the future.



Lim lemtsh,

Diana
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 05:04:56 am by Diana »

Epiphany

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2012, 04:02:40 pm »
I need to apologize. I engaged with a racist troll here on the forum and I should not have.

I apologize for suggesting that the racist abusive troll take a break. She didn't need a break, she needed to be gone. I really regret my participation. I hear that this has caused harm to forum members and I am very sorry.

This forum isn't the place for helping or engaging with crazy sadistic white people.

To correct the mistake I've made I'm reading again everything that is pinned in the forums about the rules and also about how to work on being an ally. I keep my attention on assisting with some research on potential and actual fraudsters.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 03:23:52 am by Epiphany »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2012, 04:54:30 pm »
I also apologize to the forum for the mistakes I made when I was new here, or even more recently when the entitlement I was raised with has led me to unconsciously take up more space on the board, or "air in the room" than was appropriate. I apologize for the times I've blundered, thinking I know more about something than I do.  I apologize for the times when, in my need to feel useful I may have given the impression that I think I can speak for other people's cultures. It was not my intent, but intent is different from behaviour, and I apologize if my behaviour has caused discomfort to those I love and respect.

When I first came here, I asked a respected member some questions about ceremony. Though her response was brief, I could tell I had done something wrong. I tried to apologize and clean it up, but it took me years to realize exactly what I did wrong, and how wrong it was. Outsiders to the culture simply should not ask those questions. Even members of the culture do not discuss the details of those ceremonies publicly.

So I apologize for boundaries I crossed in my ignorance. It was not their job to educate me about what to discuss and not discuss. It was my job to learn to behave appropriately, through listening, listening, then listening some more.

Sometimes now I try to tell the non-Natives when they're going too far, when they should back off because they're being offensive. I know sometimes it makes people think I'm mean, or aggressive. In my mind, I am just being protective. I am deeply grateful for the friends and relatives I have found here.

Thank you for listening.

P.S. - As our long-term members know, I came here to learn about appropriation. I had unwittingly engaged in it when I was young, and I had recently found out someone I had once respected was actually an appropriator. When I realized how wrong it all was, I dedicated myself to working to protect ceremony and culture. I take this vow seriously. In an effort to make amends, I am also active in working on these issues off-forum, in person, as an activist; I am a footsoldier and NDNs take the lead. I have also refused to let publications or forums who promote ceremony-sellers and other frauds publish my work, and I try to make my misspent youth not so misspent by using what I learned about appropriators firsthand in our efforts to stop them now.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 07:17:31 pm by Kathryn »

Cheesy Little Life

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2012, 04:37:45 pm »
I am the person who used to post as Sad-Old-Druid.

I apologise for the completely inadequate apology I previously made to Diana in a PM.

I recognise that I should not have interfered with the thread to engage with Gwaewael, and I apologise fully for the hurt caused by my impulsiveness and thoughtlessness. I should not have spoken out of turn. It is not my part to say what this forum is or is not.

I take full responsibility for my inappropriate interference.

I own up to my part in this episode. I recognise now the hurt that is caused by unconscious racism and the blindness that is part of ‘white privilege’.

I did not actually read the thread properly. I responded to something in the exchanges in the moment. From this I learn not to post until I have thought everything through. I should not have posted at all. I should have sat still and listened.

Thank you for what you have taught me.

From now on I sit outside.

Offline nemesis

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2012, 09:34:29 am »
I just wanted to post to say that I am insanely busy with urgent things (my default mode) and that I will be posting a longer response and a proper apology when I have the time to do it properly.

Part of the problem re my earlier posts re this was that I posted in haste without giving the matter sufficient thought, an error I do not wish to repeat.

I also would like to say thank you to Diana for staying with the issue and standing your ground.  I think that it can be a kind of generosity to stay with something that is obviously so painful.  The worst scenario for me is that I would hurt the feelings of people I care about and that they would be so angry that they would not wish to tell me about it.  I do genuinely care about native people and it upsets me very much to think that I have hurt you.

Longer post to follow, I just wanted everyone to know that I am giving this matter very serious consideration and that I have not just disappeared and not thought about this. 

To critter and clearwater I would just like to say that you should ask yourselves why you are here.  If you are genuinely passionate about stopping newage frauds and cultural appropriators then this is the time to prove your commitment.  A real ally does not try to avoid the issue and just leave when challenged.  The very first test of being a good ally (IMO) is to have the commitment towards checking yourself out and really seriously thinking about the issue when native people tell you that they have been hurt by you. People have been hurt here and, regardless of what you have done or not done, said or not said, the first thing to do is to try to put yourself in their shoes and to try to understand why people are hurt.  This does not solve everything of course, it is just the very first step, but it is a step that I feel neither of you have taken.   I think that if you do this some fairly obvious truths will emerge. 

Personally, I feel that if we can really think about this very seriously and try to work out what has happened, that this thread / issue may be something that can be one of the most helpful and healing things here.  If we avoid it, then it will simply consolidate the hurt that people are feeling, which can only be a bad thing. 
 

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2013, 04:34:26 pm »
Epilogue:

I am bumping this thread and am going to link to it from the "How to be an Ally" post as I think it's instructive.

This was pretty much the last thread in what some of us have come to call, The NAFPS Race War of 2012. It took place over a few threads, most of them linked below. While it was stressful and exasperating, I think we also had some good discussion of white privilege, along with some illustrative examples. Here's how it started:

Member Intros - Gwaewael - http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3739.0

The word "Indian" is much maligned. - http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3741.0

Do I have this right? - http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3744.0


Mahekun

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2013, 04:46:06 pm »
Aggggggh oh my god this person. Barged in like a train off the rails and just...ugh. I'm really at a loss for words.
She reeked of not only ignorance and disrespect but probable mental illness as well.
I had to stop reading after a few of her posts. What a mess.

And yes Kathryn, her posts are fantastic examples of white privelege.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 05:00:10 pm by Mahekun »

Offline Ari

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2013, 03:36:10 pm »
Ms. Pietkevich is posing as a friend of NAFPS? The same Ms. Jane who keeps this special website:

http://www.nagual.net/

The lady, who was apprenticing with a shaman and wrote a book, teaching people nothing less, but how to live and die??

Oh..

The nagual net, which this critter allegedly inherited from her brother, for many years was a VIP playground for the most vicious Castanedian naguals and warriors. Ms. Jane was permissively beaming her legendary compassion all over those very special individuals. Lunatism and abuse were as abundant as it can get.

Critter is a Castanedian. I bet she'll deny it. But before you make a judgement, remember what these people do: they practice stalking and lying as an art. They go around looking for petty tyrants to battle with (to death). They despise ordinary humans. They practice inhumane and unusual behavior as a mean to shift their assemblage points. They aim to reach for the "place of no pity" and become ruthless. Castaneda and his followers are ultimate expression of sociopathy. The description fits them 100%:

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Critter, white non NDN, you said you would not apologize for compassion. No problem. You go girl (if you are even a female). No need to lurk as a "friend". No need to write all these lengthy rants about your white non NDN critter self. Casta go! Shoo, critter, shoo!

Of course critter's website fits into frauds here, but it would open a can of dirtiest worms. Nastier and crazier than many other cans, you deal with here. She said she is done with posting - good riddance. IMHO.

Autumn

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2013, 12:30:09 am »
I thought surely you were mistaken, Ari, but Critter wrote this herself in 2011:

Quote
Fast forward into adulthood when computers and the web began up, my brother created a web page for exploring concepts of the unknown and spirituality. Other than the few items of Buddhism that my brother put on the page, it quickly became a Castaneda site. When he died, I kept it up for the people who converged there. Prior to that, I didn’t have anything to do with the site because I didn’t believe in Castaneda. Also, prior to my brother’s passing, he had told me that he was taking it down. But I kept it up for the people there, and in a few years ended up removing the entire forum because it was a cesspool. Not everyone on there was awful, but many were really creepy people with no sense or care for or about anyone but their selves. I actually did post to the site that Castaneda was a fraud. Of course, that didn’t go over well.  :D

Well, the site is still up but is soon to go down once the fee comes up for the domain. But it has been inactive for years now.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?COLLCC=957077394&topic=2388.msg19433

The site is still up, though, and she is still advertising her book:

http://www.nagual.net/
http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Die-J-Pietkivitch/dp/0741435012/sr=1-1/qid=1171326913/ref=sr_1_1/102-3538122-1491357?ie=UTF8&s=books

She posted on this site just a day or so ago.  This has been a shocker of a day for me and a sad one.


Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2013, 01:10:42 am »
OMG....

I was also under the mistaken impression that she had taken down that awful site and was no longer selling that shameon book. I see I was mistaken. You can't have it both ways, Critter. You can't claim to be helping fight fraud while you're promoting it, and profiting off it. This is not OK.

Who's the "Shaman" in the book?

Also by recommending books by misappropriators, and selling them via her Amazon bookstore, she is profiting from this (mis)appropriation when people buy via her website.

This domain has been up for renewal multiple times since you joined here, Critter. You have chosen to renew it and keep profiting off these lies about NDNs. You have pretended to be people's friends, while lining your pockets via harm to them and their cultures. WTF?

http://www.nagual.net/books/native3.html

http://www.nagual.net/books/shamanism.html

http://www.nagual.net/books/divination.html

http://www.nagual.net/books/newage.html

Just look at all those frauds on the recommended list. Everything Castaneda and his followers ever wrote, Jamie Sams, Tom Brown, "Wa-Na-Nee-Che," Ed McGaa, HeyWhatever Storm, Alberto Villoldo, Tom Cowan, Michael Harner, Lynn MF ANDREWS! and a whole bunch of other non-Natives claiming to sell medicine, including claims to teach about SUNDANCE. Did you just go through our frauds section and pick books to sell based on our consensus that they're frauds? You've criticized many of these people out of one side of your mouth while promoting them out the other.

Wow. Just look at all those lies about NDNs.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 02:11:31 am by Kathryn »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2013, 01:54:50 am »
geez. that's pretty low snorks. how will you prove you don't do this anymore? just curious how you can prove it.

The irony. It burns.

Just sad, creepy, and anguishing all at the same time.

Yes. It is.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 01:56:22 am by Kathryn »

Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2013, 03:00:38 am »
Ms. is posing as a friend of NAFPS? The same Ms. Jane who keeps this special website:

http://www.nagual.net/

Hi, well, we are waiting for the prepaid fee on the domain to end. I didn't get rid of it immediately after my
brother died because the many people who were on it wanted it and then seemed to need it. I never was part
of it when my brother was alive. After he died and my family and I were deciding what to do with it, I volunteered
to deal with it. I ended it a long time ago, as it was imo, a cesspool of near sociopaths. After I ended it, I didn't
want to give up the domain name because I didn't want any of these people taking and using it.


The lady, who was apprenticing with a shaman and wrote a book, teaching people nothing less, but how to live and die??

Hi,

Yes and no.

No. I was not apprenticing with a shamon. I was friends with a woman who made such claims, but her ridiculousness eventually led to my dissolving my association with her. 

Yes, I wrote a book about my own personal opinions on how to live and how to die.  Much of it is still my personal opinion, I no longer believe there is one way for all people.. for example, I believe I reincarnate, but I do not believe that everyone does, or has to because I believe I do. I have no idea who set up Life for all these differing people and cultures, who set up the rules that differing cultures live and die by.

Oh..

The nagual net, which this critter allegedly inherited from her brother, for many years was a VIP playground for the most vicious Castanedian naguals and warriors. Ms. Jane was permissively beaming her legendary compassion all over those very special individuals. Lunatism and abuse were as abundant as it can get.

You're right about that! Except the "allegedly" part, I did inherit it from my brother. In conversations with my family,
I should have said no, and let it just die with him. But, being as I am, and seeing how those people really wanted the
site, I kept it up and found what  you found.. lunacy. A cesspool. I ended it. And I did shine my compassion.. LOL but as you can expect, vileness was all that came forth from that. Some of those people really hated me. Some made up lies about me, burning down someone's barn and what not. Crazy.


Critter is a Castanedian. I bet she'll deny it. But before you make a judgement, remember what these people do: they practice stalking and lying as an art. They go around looking for petty tyrants to battle with (to death). They despise ordinary humans. They practice inhumane and unusual behavior as a mean to shift their assemblage points. They aim to reach for the "place of no pity" and become ruthless. Castaneda and his followers are ultimate expression of sociopathy. The description fits them 100%:

I enjoyed Castaned's first 4 books when I was mid teen. The latter books I didn't like, they were as you said here, strange practices and a whole lot of bunk that had no warmth or heart or compassion in them. The whole thing was really pretty twisted, that website was proof enough of how sociopathically twisted people became because of these books.. I do not practice these, nor do I recommend them to anyone.


http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Thanks for posting this link!  I've said for a long time now that Castaneda books creates sociopaths..

Critter, white non NDN, you said you would not apologize for compassion. No problem. You go girl (if you are even a female). No need to lurk as a "friend". No need to write all these lengthy rants about your white non NDN critter self. Casta go! Shoo, critter, shoo!

Yes, you're right. I won't apologize for practicing compassion or kindness. My posts in this thread were an attempt to apologize, since the apology was not being accepted, and I'm not sure even understood, I stopped and left the forum as well so I wouldn't hurt anyone from being who I am in this world. If I'm not welcome here, I understand, the mods just have to say so and I'll leave.

Of course critter's website fits into frauds here, but it would open a can of dirtiest worms. Nastier and crazier than many other cans, you deal with here. She said she is done with posting - good riddance. IMHO.

That website is up, but that forum has been down for years now. The website has my brother's stuff on it, I think. Haven't gone there in a few years I don't really remember, except his obit and some other things .. those I remember are on there.

But no, after some time I came back to posting.

I wonder if you were on that forum, and saw how I told them Castaneda was a fraud.. LOL That was not taken very well by the participants on that site.

~edited to remove personal information - sky~
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 01:12:09 am by sky »
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Re: APOLOGIES
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2013, 03:22:09 am »
I thought it would be down soon, but apparently it is prepaid and we will not renew it.

Thanks for this.. I forgot about those pages.. as I've said, all that was set up by my brother, when I killed the forum, I hadn't even thought about the book list page.. with everything else that was going on, and then simply forgot about them.  I'll disable them .. heck, I don't even have the site bookmarked.. haven't been there in years.

Looking at it now..  The links page also has to be disabled..

You know what? I don't remember how to log on there.. I'm going to the hosting site and will simply remove the thing that way. :)

Ok.. weird.. I finally got it unassigned and removed... but the links page still shows up? oh nope.. :) just checked again.. it's gone! :)
OMG....

I was also under the mistaken impression that she had taken down that awful site and was no longer selling that shameon book. I see I was mistaken. You can't have it both ways, Critter. You can't claim to be helping fight fraud while you're promoting it, and profiting off it. This is not OK.

Who's the "Shaman" in the book?

Also by recommending books by misappropriators, and selling them via her Amazon bookstore, she is profiting from this (mis)appropriation when people buy via her website.

This domain has been up for renewal multiple times since you joined here, Critter. You have chosen to renew it and keep profiting off these lies about NDNs. You have pretended to be people's friends, while lining your pockets via harm to them and their cultures. WTF?

http://www.nagual.net/books/native3.html

http://www.nagual.net/books/shamanism.html

http://www.nagual.net/books/divination.html

http://www.nagual.net/books/newage.html

Just look at all those frauds on the recommended list. Everything Castaneda and his followers ever wrote, Jamie Sams, Tom Brown, "Wa-Na-Nee-Che," Ed McGaa, HeyWhatever Storm, Alberto Villoldo, Tom Cowan, Michael Harner, Lynn MF ANDREWS! and a whole bunch of other non-Natives claiming to sell medicine, including claims to teach about SUNDANCE. Did you just go through our frauds section and pick books to sell based on our consensus that they're frauds? You've criticized many of these people out of one side of your mouth while promoting them out the other.

Wow. Just look at all those lies about NDNs.
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html