Author Topic: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion  (Read 97310 times)

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 503
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #105 on: January 22, 2010, 04:53:00 pm »
Almost every one of these Treaties was broken by the Federal Goverment, and before 1776 by the states.

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #106 on: January 22, 2010, 05:04:48 pm »
Rattle has said he cited black on black crime statistics in response to Don Naconna saying that Indians were some of the most violent people he'd ever known, or something to that effect. Rattle was a little vague on what was actually said. Now Don Naconna is saying Rattle wrote about black on black crime first and he only responded by citing statistics about Indian domestic violence. These conversations obviously all took place in private so there's no way to know who said what first.

I have to agree with Don Naconna that black crime statistics have no place in this discussion. It's racist and has nothing to do with the Freedmen or why they've been disenrolled.

The comment about Indians being violent is a racist stereotype, too. But then, we don't know what was actually said in this regard.

When it comes to crime, it's more about socio-economic factors and less about race. One race isn't more violent, more criminal, than another. The conditions you're raised in and live in have more to do with how you respond to situations than what race you are.

Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #107 on: January 22, 2010, 05:33:08 pm »
Just because I'm confused.. I'm clarifying to myself here that this black on black crime report/statistic was only in response to a private message where Don was citing Indian violence, and Rattlebone replied showing statistics of Black violence in order to show the differences in statistics..

And now, Don is bringing it over and over into the thread as though the crime statistics have something to do with the conversation here, when in fact, they only had to do with his mouthing of Indian crime statistics..  

My question is what questionable statistics about black on black crime have to do with anything vaugely related to the freedmen's case? You hear white racists citing black crime as their reason for segregating themselves in all white suburban ghettoes, now its being used to justify excluding the freedmen after 144 years from the nation. Why not say the freedmen were excluded because they would play basketball better than Cherokee kids and they wouldn't make teams. That is just bigotry, regardless of what colour the bigot is.

To be honest, I enjoy the clear and clarifying posts that everyone has posted but I get very confused trying to read Don's because he keeps bringing in things that have nothing to do with anything that other people are posting, or is a twisting around of what someone else said.  It's very confusing to read his words.  Very little of what he says seems to have anything at all to do with the information being provided. 

Just wanted to say.  :)

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
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Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #108 on: January 22, 2010, 05:58:23 pm »
Gosh Don, you sound like you are absolutely desperat to make the Freedman issue about prejudiced.

First off , even if Rattlebone presenting those Black crime statisics might have been in some way unfair to Black people, one comment which can be interpreted various ways is not any real evidence that the person who mentioned this is prejudiced against Blacks. As Rattlebones general stance on issues has never come across as being prejudiced against Black people, the fact that you seem determined to interpret this one comment in as ugly a light as possible, says a lot more about you and how attached you are to using guilt instead of logic to get your way , than it does about Rattlebone.

It seems simple to me...

Some White people claim Cherokee blood, may or may not have this but for one reason or another which may or may not be fair, can't document it on the Dawes rolls . These people are not eligible to be citizens of the CNO.

Some Black people claim Cherokee blood, may or may not have it,but for one reason or another which may or may not be fair, can't document it on the Dawes rolls . These people are not eligible to be citizens of the CNO.

Whether you argee or disagree with this policy, it sounds like it is being applied equally whether people are mainly Black or White, and what you seem to be  expecting is special privlidges for Blacks.

I don't see where prejudiced is the fundamental issue here. As Blackwolf pointed out, membership in the CNO is very rigidly based on having a direct ancestor listed as Cherokee by blood on the Dawes rolls.  This definition isn't always fair to some people who do have Cherokee blood but who don't have an ancestor on the Dawes. But no rigid criteria is fair to everyone, and if membership criteria isn't rigid that also wouldn't be fair to everyone, because then there would be huge problems with murky flexible criteria which could be way too easily bent or alleged to be bent, by peoples personal agendas and prejudices.

Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #109 on: January 22, 2010, 06:16:44 pm »
Again what is the relevance of people who have only one thing in common race, to tie the issue of black on black crime to the Cherokee freedmen? Is is no different than arguing that because some black are violent criminals all black people are and therefore justifies expelling people because of that from the CNO. Its no different than saying that because black people are intellectually inferior they should go to segregated schools. The Supreme Court ended that libe of racist thinking in 1954. To argue that all members of a race are violent, drunks, stupid is simply preejudice based on a generalisation. Racists believe that what applies to some applies to all and obviously Rattlebone believes that black on black crime applies to the freedmen because they're black.

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
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Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #110 on: January 22, 2010, 06:44:55 pm »
Don, as people have repeatedly pointed out, this is only one part of a private conversation, and it's hard to know what the context of Rattlebones comment was.

I am guessing that in response to you repeatedly saying Black people are the victims of White people, and your insisting that the Freedman issue is just an extension of this, that Rattlebone made a mistake and thoughtlessly pointed out that Black people are often victims of other Black people, overlooking the bigger picture , which is that the cause of this lateral violence is often directly linked to the disrespect and abuse Black people have lived through for generations at the hands of Whites.

While Rattlebone looks like he didn't think out the point he was trying to make as well as he could have , I really don't think all the other stuff you are reading into his comment is based in anything except your own strong feelings about this and your inability to make your point without accusing the CNO and anyone who doesn't agree with you of being prejudiced.

Offline LittleOldMan

  • Posts: 138
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #111 on: January 22, 2010, 07:54:10 pm »
There are several issues that I wish to address.  Removal occurred in 1838 and 1839.  Twenty or more years earlier than the Civil War.  There were Blacks within the Cherokee realm of control free as well as slave.  In 1902 and 1906 the United States Congress passed legislation defining the criteria for CNO citizenship.  Simply put You must be a direct blood descent of a Cherokee by Blood and listed as such on the Dawes Roll in order to be a CNO citizen.  The CNO is not saying that someone that is Cherokee descent is not Cherokee just that in order to be a CNO citizen the person's ancestor MUST be listed on the Dawes roll.  I do not find that hard to understand nor do I find it anti Black.  Remember the members of  Congress were the people who dictated this criteria not the CNO.  There are many more mixed Black/Cherokee  than there are aggrieved Freedman are there not?  So how can anyone logically argue that this is a racist move on the part of the CNO when the US Congress is the Daddy of it all? This next is opinion based on my personal observations over the last twenty years.  I cannot speak to the problems of crime found on the Rez but I find some similarities between what happens there and the problem of Black on Black crime.  I am a retired Home Service Insurance Man with over twenty years serving Black clients in the intercity projects  of Birmingham Al.  Every day every week of the year I was on call 24/7.  Crime is rampant every where.  It become more observable due to the fact that if you are poor you do not have access to good legal advice.  My observations are threefold.  Rampant poverty, Breakup of the family as a cultural unit, and the fact that when you stack so many poor so close together with the desperation that goes with poverty and the frustration that comes from no way out you have a smoldering fuse waiting for a stick of TNT.  I can not qualify to be a member of the CNO_not because I have a higher white BQ than than Cherokee but that I do not have a direct ancestor on the Dawes Roll.  I do not feel aggrieved  thank you.  Thank you for allowing the ramble.  With respect "LittleOldMan"       
Blind unfocused anger is unproductive and can get you hurt.  Controlled and focused anger directed tactically wins wars. Remember the sheath is not the sword.

Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #112 on: January 22, 2010, 08:53:06 pm »
I would agree with most of what you posted, however, I can't see any purpose using black on black crime statistics to justify anything about the Cherokee freedmen. Using totally unrelated biased information is often the most useful tactic of the extreme right. Can anyone say that crime statistics in 2010 have anything to do with denial people rights they have had since 1866. That's why I countered with biased data on Indian crimes, also totally unrelated to the issue.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 503
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #113 on: January 22, 2010, 09:01:47 pm »
This is on reply 85 of this thread.

Quote
The fact is that Indians on reservations are more violent than any other ethnic group in the US.
"and some tribes have murder rates against women 10 times greater than the national average."

Don, why did you say this?  Are you racist againts Indians?  What did you mean by this statement exactly.  Explain yourself.  Rattlebone had to defend himself and explain himself, so I think its only fair now that you do the same.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 503
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #114 on: January 22, 2010, 09:19:52 pm »
And what did you mean here in these statements?  These statements are all from Don.  Are you racist againts Indians Don?  And what do these post have to do with the Freedmen? 

Quote
I do not believe that there are any truly sovereign nations within the borders of the US. Also the federal government does have the power to simply remove recognition just as it has denied recognition to many legitimate tribes in the past.

Quote
Indians gave up their sovereignty in 1924.

Quote
If anyone believes that tribes should truly be sovereign send back your passports, refuse to accept any aid or welfare from any American government agency and have an members of the US military resign. Or stop even using the word sovereign! History is not convenient but it is true. My question is how do you perceive the future through the past as it appears, which is where it appears or in a world and nation where race and ancestry is only a foot note.

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 256
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #115 on: January 22, 2010, 09:40:24 pm »
I would agree with most of what you posted, however, I can't see any purpose using black on black crime statistics to justify anything about the Cherokee freedmen. Using totally unrelated biased information is often the most useful tactic of the extreme right. Can anyone say that crime statistics in 2010 have anything to do with denial people rights they have had since 1866. That's why I countered with biased data on Indian crimes, also totally unrelated to the issue.


Don,

 At no time did I ever say any of the things you are saying I did here. What I was doing was along the lines of what Moma Porcupine has explained to you she felt I did, and for reasons similar to what she has pointed out.

 However at no time did I use those statistics in any such way as to say they were any  kind of justification for the Freedmen being disenrolled. I honestly don't know how many different ways I, or anyone else has to explain that to you and make that point stick.

 Honestly, I don't know why I should have to explain it to you when you have all the messages in your inbox, the same as I do. As a matter of fact I have even posted up one of those messages in this thread that had both sides of our conversation within it. At no place in that message or any other message did I say anything remotely resembling those things in which you now constantly accuse me of.

I do also find it funny how you fail to put my actual words here, but rather post your interpretation of them which is so twisted and off base that it is insane.

 What I said to you in regards to crime statistics wasn't even really anything to do with the Freedmen other then a response to how you constantly say how bad they have it just for being Freedmen, and have unilaterally denied that Fullblood Cherokee in places such as Adiar Country Oklahoma are probably some the poorest and worst off people in Oklahoma.

 I presented to you crime statistics and statements that outlined that in cases of violence against Native women, the perpetrators were almost always NON Native men. I do believe violence in general against Native people most often comes from the hands of NON Indian people. I then presented the crime statistics about black on black crime to show how cases of murder and violent crimes in the black community were actually more internal as opposed to violence on Indian people usually coming from the hands of NON Indians.

 This aspect of the conversation really wasn't exactly about the Freedmen, and I really didn't intend it to be. It was in a private conversation between you and in which I was tired of you playing the victim card to such a degree as to refusing to not recognize racism and murder against Native people from NON Indians, and especially against Native women.

 In a lot of ways this aspect of the conversation had little to do with the Freedmen, but more so in the things I have already explained above in this post.

  I do not see why you continue to bring this up in this thread, as all you are doing is derailing it based on words you have twisted way out of proportion from a private conversation that has no reason to even be in this thread.

 Very much to the contrary of anything you have said in this thread, I have been in full support of people of Black/Cherokee ancestry enrolled in the CNO, even if that ancestry means they are mostly of African descent, and very little Cherokee by blood.

 What I have been saying in this thread is my support of the CNO's right to chose it's own members as it has the right to do based on it's tribal sovereignty.

 What I have stated both in this thread and in numerous others now, always directed at you; is why are you and the CBC making such a big deal about this issue and not about the disenrollments going on in other tribes.??????????????????????????????????

 If you are not about race as you say, but are about justice; then why do you wish to ignore the tribal sovereignty of the Cherokee, but not of a tribe such as the Chukchansi in California whom have now disenrolled 600 out of it's 1,200 members

 You see unlike you I do acknowledge my Native ancestry as something that is a very big, and important part of my life. I am a member of the NDN community in the part of California I live in, and am recognized by the community as such.

 The issue of disenrollments is a big issue with me, because it affects people I know personally, and I view as family.

 I was present when an elder in her 70's received notice that she had been disernolled by her tribe. I was there as this elderly women broke down in tears and wept. This woman is not some person of mostly white blood, but is visibly an Indian person.

What offends me about people like you, and the CBC, is that you are sooo gung ho about overriding the tribal sovereignty of the CNO, but will not lift a finger or say a words for others facing similar fates.

 You can say how the CNO had the treaty of 1866, but I will say that NDN people in every tribe come from ancestors who faced great obstacles and great sadness to survive back in the same period of time as that treaty, did so before it, and did so after it.

 In my mind every treaty signed with every tribe, and laws passed in the IRA should be protecting NDN's today, and should be seen as just as big of an issue as this 1866 treaty you and others harp on. Sadly I see this is not true, and to date you and the CBC both have never once spoken a word about it.

 So if you are truly a man of justice and one not about race, please address the issue of disenrollments going on all over the country, or admit the words you speak telling us all you area about justice are false, hollow, and from the side of your mouth.

 

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 503
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2010, 01:16:35 am »
Moma Porcupine said

Quote
http://www.kerchner.com/cgi-kerchner/mtdna.cgi

http://www.mitosearch.org/haplosearch_start.asp?uid=

You have to read through a lot to get the picture, as a lot of people are just reporting European results and family history, but if you do, the pattern that emerges is very clear.

The numbers show a lot more stories a gr gr grandma was an Indian than there was gr gr grandma's who actually were Indian - of any tribe.

My own theory is that a lot of people have gr gr gr gr gr aunts or uncles who married someone who was Native and after a few generations that got turned into "someone back there" which people assumed was their own ancestor, when it wasn't.

(edited to add *in North America* as Hispanic people have a much larger percentage of indigenous maternal lines )


Moma porcupine, I went back to the link you gave and really looked at it a little better.  It’s hard to follow at first because of the terminology, but the picture that is painted is crystal clear to me.  I encourage everyone to read it.  I think that one of the reasons that many Wannabees are so arrogant  is because many people don’t challenge them on their heritage.  But the truth is the truth. If people were more honest not only with others but with themselves then their lives would be a whole lot easier.    Everyone should take a look at the DNA links that Moma Porcupine posted. 

Your right on track when you say people assume that someone was their ancestor when in fact it was not. I’ll expand on that.

Also, to expand on what you have found with you DNA research, this is one of the reasons as to why we Cherokees are so skeptical of those who cannot prove their heritage. Most of these people aren’t our long lost brothers and sisters at all, on the contrary, many of these people’s ancestors stole our people’s homeland.  While I have admitted in the past that there are some legit claims and even some legit claims by some of the Freedmen that are not enrolled, the evidence is overwhelming that most Cherokee claims are bogus.

After looking into this issue for some time I am not surprised at the lengths that some people will go to into deceiving people about their “made up heritage”.  Another trend that I have noticed is “Ancestor Stealing”.  Which ties into your post.

I’ve come across numerous cases of people claiming ancestors on various Cherokee rolls, when in fact it came out later that these people’s ancestors are not in fact their ancestors. Indian communities aren’t very big in the whole scheme of things.  Even the Cherokee Nation with its 280,000 citizens and having people with low BQ’s, if your not enrolled its going to come out sooner or later.  Every Cherokee knows who their family is.  Many enrolled people in the Cherokee Nation can sit down and tell you who their family was for many many generations back.  And I’m sure in some of the smaller Tribes this is even more pronounced.   

There was a woman I met a  while back who claimed she was descended from the Baker Rolls which is the base roll for the Eastern Band.  She was not shy in telling people about it.  When I asked her who her ancestor was she told me the name. While it was true that there was someone on the Baker Roll with that exact name, later I found out after looking at her genealogy more closely.  ( She showed it to me herself ), that the person that was her supposed ancestors on the Baker Roll died 30 years before the Baker Rolls were established. 

One thing to also keep in mind is that the Dawes Roll is full of many common Anglo surnames such as  Smith, Robbins, Stephens, Taylor, Walker, Fields etc, etc.

Given names are also common, such as Joe, John, Elizabeth, Mary,etc. I have become aware over the years of many instances of this. 

There are people who may have a g grandparent named John Smith who was from Oklahoma or NC, and without researching it more fully ( and sometimes they do but deny it ), they take this Indian ancestor as their own when their ancestor was just someone with the same name.  There is more to just having a common surname or even complete name on one of the Rolls.  Siblings of the ancestor, exact dates, locations, parents, grandparents, and other evidence should all be looked at when looking at and researching the Rolls.  There was a guy on the powwow trail who had family from Oklahoma.  He was from Oklahoma, and his last name was a common surname on the Dawes Roll.  However it came out that this man wasn’t an enrolled Cherokee citizen, but he would tell everyone that he was a Cherokee from the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.  The family he claimed he was related to turned out to be just good friends of his while all the while he claimed they were his family. Since they both had the surname, everyone assumed they was his family.

I’ve met other people who think that because they have a surname from the Dawes Roll and their family was in Oklahoma or NC, and sometimes even Georgia, haha, that that proves their heritage.  This is why our rolls are so important to us.  Not only for the Cherokees but for all Tribal Nations in the US and Canada.  In a perfect world, you can take someone at their word that they are Cherokee, but with all the misrepresentation taking place, our Rolls are important to us.  These Rolls whether it be Dawes or other Rolls even with some of their flaws are the story or our families. Now of course I agree with the fact that there are legit claims of people with ancestors on Rolls but aren’t necessarily enrolled, I’m just pointing out that many people are not what and who they claim to be.  I stumbled across this blog a while ago that ties into the idea of Ancestors Stealing.  The link is listed below.



Friday, January 8, 2010
Ancestor Stealers
 
Recently, I have noticed a new trend among those claiming Cherokee ancestry--"ancestor stealers". Instead of providing a well researched, documented family tree to verify their ancestry, quite a few people are now basing their "Cherokee ancestry" on fabricated family trees. These trees quite often have the names of real Cherokees in them, but there is no connection between the Cherokee and the person who put the tree together.

For example, I saw a tree this week from a person who claimed to be the descendant of the well known Cherokee Nancy Ward. At first glance, the line of direct descendants seemed fine, until you noticed that Nancy Bean, a real descendant of Nancy Ward, was listed as the mother of William E. Bean., the tree creator's great great grandfather. The problem with that information is that all of Nancy Bean's children had the surname Johnson, her married surname. The family is extremely well documented and Nancy Bean Johnson had no son named William, let alone one named William E. Bean.

Normally, I might think the mistake was an honest one, but in this case, I don't believe it was. The woman the tree belonged to is touting herself as a person who is revitalizing and teaching the Eastern Cherokee language dialect. She gets involved in anything she sees online that says it is Cherokee. Her daughter has won an essay award meant for Native American children and has started crafting Indian style items. This woman has several fabricated family trees online where she makes it look as if she does descend from a Cherokee from very distant history. It seems no matter what it takes, she is going to try to convince people she is a Cherokee.

Often I am asked why we Cherokee people get so mad about wannabes. Well, the example above is one of those reasons. Unless you are truly a Native American, I don't think most people can begin to understand the length some frauds will go to in order to try to claim to be one of us. We understand that there are some people who truly just want to learn their ancestry, but we are also aware of many people who don't care what their actual ancestry is--they are going to claim to be Cherokee, no matter what they have to do--even if that means stealing someone else's ancestors and claiming them. This makes the true descendants of that person angry.

If you are researching your ancestry looking for verification of a Cherokee family story, please only use information that you can support with documentation. Be extremely wary of ANY family tree you find online. You don't know where that information came from and you don't know the goal of the person who posted that tree. Even if they are not an "ancestor stealer", they could be very bad at genealogical research.

No matter who your ancestors were, whether they were Cherokee or other, they deserve to be remembered and honored by you. By claiming someone other than those you actually descend from, not only will you be an "ancestor stealer" but also denying your true ancestors the place in your family history they deserve.

Those are my thoughts for today.
Thank you for reading.

CC
The Granddaughter

copyright 2010, Polly's Granddaughter - TCB


Read more: http://pollysgranddaughter.blogspot.com/2010/01/ancestor-stealers.html#ixzz0dOSvqojB

http://www.blogcatalog.com/blog/pollys-granddaughter

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 256
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #117 on: January 23, 2010, 02:17:55 am »
Looking at the number of people reporting a family story of an Indian great grandma on their maternal line, and then looking at the number of mtDNA results * in North America * which show a indigenous mtDNA type, generally shows there is about 10 stories of a distant Native ancestor on the maternal line for every mtDNA result that actually confirms this. On the other hand, there is almost no one getting an mtDNA result showing a maternal line that is indigenous, when they always thought great granny was completely non native....


http://www.kerchner.com/cgi-kerchner/mtdna.cgi

http://www.mitosearch.org/haplosearch_start.asp?uid=

You have to read through a lot to get the picture, as a lot of people are just reporting European results and family history, but if you do, the pattern that emerges is very clear.

The numbers show a lot more stories a gr gr grandma was an Indian than there was gr gr grandma's who actually were Indian - of any tribe.
  
My own theory is that a lot of people have gr gr gr gr gr aunts or uncles who married someone who was Native and after a few generations that got turned into "someone back there" which people assumed was their own ancestor, when it wasn't.

(edited to add *in North America* as Hispanic people have a much larger percentage of indigenous maternal lines )

 A friend of mine and I were talking about this topic once, and apparently she had learned about it in college to some degree. This is what she told me on the topic, which lead me to believe this is not an exact science yet and can not really be trusted as absolute.

*******************************************************************************


*****note: she did this on a myspace mail box that was using HTML. So
there is mention of bold letter and a chart that do not work on the
format done by Yahoo here*******


The problem with Mitochondrial DNA testing is it doesn't show all of
the markers and possibilities in your own bloodline. These places can
only show matches with people whose DNA they have in their system, so
if you have, say, an unknown or small ethnic group in your background,
one for which they don't have current date to make a match with, it's
not studied further.
For instance, a lot of black people who've used this very tool for
genealogy have gotten results pertaining ONLY to Europe, with no
mention whatsoever of Africa. One man I know of had traced his
genealogy back generations to specific parts of Africa, yet when he
tested his mitochondrial dna, his search ended in Europe and showed no
African origin, which he knew wasn't correct. But that is because of
the mitochondrial DNA.
So, let's say there is a woman, Jane. Jane is daughter of Mark and
Mary. Jane will inherit all of Mary's mitochondrial DNA, but none of
Mark's mother. Mitochondrial DNA is only a part of the mother's
background.
Mark's mother would have passed it on to Mark and his siblings, but if
it's passed on to a male, he doesn't pass it on to his children since
it is carried only in women. You would have your mother's
mitochondrial DNA, but you would not pass it on to your children. A
sister of yours would.
So, if you trace Jane's ancestry through mitochondrial DNA, you are
only tracing one aspect of the many ancestor's she's had.
<a
href="http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vczI5OS5waG90b2J1Y2tldC5jb20vYWxidW1zL2\
1tMzE1L3BvZXRzNGhpcmUvP2FjdGlvbj12aWV3JmN1cnJlbnQ9bXRkbmEuanBn"
target="_blank"><img
src="http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/poets4hire/mtdna.jpg"
border="0" alt="Photobucket" /></a>
The people in bold italic are the only ones MtDNA is going to trace.
So now you have genetic information from Mary, Linda, and Sharon who
are Jane's ancestors, but you are missing information from Mark, John,
Ellen, Harry, Larry, Sue, Bill, Amy, Joe, Ally and Martin. And Sharon
is only Jane's great-grandmother. So, in only three generations,
you've not taken in to account eleven people who genetically
contributed to Jane's DNA makeup.
Now, let's say that Larry is Scottish, Sue is Scottish, Bill is Irish,
and Amy is Dutch. Let's say Joe is Black Dutch, Ally is Melungeon, and
Martin is German/Souix. Let's say Sharon is British.
All you are going to know about Jane is the British ancestry. You
won't know about the german, the souix, the melungeon, the black
dutch, the dutch, the irish, or the scottish. Mitochondrial DNA does
not trace that side.
There is patrilineal DNA, but it is even more limited than mtdna,
because it's not passed on to daughters, at all, unlike mtdna which is
passed on to sons, but not their children.
The really is no 'best' to use, but there are DNA tests that are better.
Patrilineal and Matrilineal DNA, if taking into account the chart
above, will still leave out people. I've seen people test both sides
and get different results on both. One in particular showed african
ancestry of a small group that migrated to britain long ago and were
never slaves in the Y-line (patrilineal) , and in the mtdna it showed
both native american and north african ancestry. If the testing was
taken only on one type of test, they would have very different results
and views of where they originated. There are DNA tests that give a
more detailed determination like autosomal testing, but you must
remember that some genes are dominant and some are recessive, and
ancestors often donate unequal portions of their genes to their
offspring. This is why some siblings sharing the same two parents can
look completely different. Not long ago there were twins born to an
interracial couple for the second time, and one was black while the
other was white. This is because they each inherited different
portions of their parents genetics. One grandparent or parent might
donate less than another or more.
So, basically, DNA can prove ancestry beyond a shadow of a doubt (like
if you are related to somebody famous), but it cannot disprove
ancestry beyond a shadow of a doubt (because you will not be able to
measure all contributors to your DNA accurately, and therefore can be
misled about your origins).

Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #118 on: January 23, 2010, 02:28:12 am »
I would agree with most of what you posted, however, I can't see any purpose using black on black crime statistics to justify anything about the Cherokee freedmen. Using totally unrelated biased information is often the most useful tactic of the extreme right. Can anyone say that crime statistics in 2010 have anything to do with denial people rights they have had since 1866. That's why I countered with biased data on Indian crimes, also totally unrelated to the issue.
The CBC represents 40 million voters. What does black on black crime statistics have to do with the Cherokee freedmen? Its sounds like Rush Limbaugh logic. Please explain...
I'm sorry but you sound like a white southern heritage racist, who wants to wave the confederate flag and expect black people across the country to send you tax money. What is the difference between this logic and the people who deny that your president is an American citizen, and claim they're not racists. You still haven't told what black on black crime has to do with the freedmen expulsion other than racism.
Think about it when white racists demand white power, what does that mean. When "Indians" use the same tactics to deny people their historical rights, what is it?


Don,

 At no time did I ever say any of the things you are saying I did here. What I was doing was along the lines of what Moma Porcupine has explained to you she felt I did, and for reasons similar to what she has pointed out.

 However at no time did I use those statistics in any such way as to say they were any  kind of justification for the Freedmen being disenrolled. I honestly don't know how many different ways I, or anyone else has to explain that to you and make that point stick.

 Honestly, I don't know why I should have to explain it to you when you have all the messages in your inbox, the same as I do. As a matter of fact I have even posted up one of those messages in this thread that had both sides of our conversation within it. At no place in that message or any other message did I say anything remotely resembling those things in which you now constantly accuse me of.

I do also find it funny how you fail to put my actual words here, but rather post your interpretation of them which is so twisted and off base that it is insane.

 What I said to you in regards to crime statistics wasn't even really anything to do with the Freedmen other then a response to how you constantly say how bad they have it just for being Freedmen, and have unilaterally denied that Fullblood Cherokee in places such as Adiar Country Oklahoma are probably some the poorest and worst off people in Oklahoma.

 I presented to you crime statistics and statements that outlined that in cases of violence against Native women, the perpetrators were almost always NON Native men. I do believe violence in general against Native people most often comes from the hands of NON Indian people. I then presented the crime statistics about black on black crime to show how cases of murder and violent crimes in the black community were actually more internal as opposed to violence on Indian people usually coming from the hands of NON Indians.

 This aspect of the conversation really wasn't exactly about the Freedmen, and I really didn't intend it to be. It was in a private conversation between you and in which I was tired of you playing the victim card to such a degree as to refusing to not recognize racism and murder against Native people from NON Indians, and especially against Native women.

 In a lot of ways this aspect of the conversation had little to do with the Freedmen, but more so in the things I have already explained above in this post.

  I do not see why you continue to bring this up in this thread, as all you are doing is derailing it based on words you have twisted way out of proportion from a private conversation that has no reason to even be in this thread.

 Very much to the contrary of anything you have said in this thread, I have been in full support of people of Black/Cherokee ancestry enrolled in the CNO, even if that ancestry means they are mostly of African descent, and very little Cherokee by blood.

 What I have been saying in this thread is my support of the CNO's right to chose it's own members as it has the right to do based on it's tribal sovereignty.

 What I have stated both in this thread and in numerous others now, always directed at you; is why are you and the CBC making such a big deal about this issue and not about the disenrollments going on in other tribes.??????????????????????????????????

 If you are not about race as you say, but are about justice; then why do you wish to ignore the tribal sovereignty of the Cherokee, but not of a tribe such as the Chukchansi in California whom have now disenrolled 600 out of it's 1,200 members

 You see unlike you I do acknowledge my Native ancestry as something that is a very big, and important part of my life. I am a member of the NDN community in the part of California I live in, and am recognized by the community as such.

 The issue of disenrollments is a big issue with me, because it affects people I know personally, and I view as family.

 I was present when an elder in her 70's received notice that she had been disernolled by her tribe. I was there as this elderly women broke down in tears and wept. This woman is not some person of mostly white blood, but is visibly an Indian person.

What offends me about people like you, and the CBC, is that you are sooo gung ho about overriding the tribal sovereignty of the CNO, but will not lift a finger or say a words for others facing similar fates.

 You can say how the CNO had the treaty of 1866, but I will say that NDN people in every tribe come from ancestors who faced great obstacles and great sadness to survive back in the same period of time as that treaty, did so before it, and did so after it.

 In my mind every treaty signed with every tribe, and laws passed in the IRA should be protecting NDN's today, and should be seen as just as big of an issue as this 1866 treaty you and others harp on. Sadly I see this is not true, and to date you and the CBC both have never once spoken a word about it.

 So if you are truly a man of justice and one not about race, please address the issue of disenrollments going on all over the country, or admit the words you speak telling us all you area about justice are false, hollow, and from the side of your mouth.

 

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 256
Re: Cherokee Freedmen Discussion
« Reply #119 on: January 23, 2010, 02:35:59 am »

I would agree with most of what you posted, however, I can't see any purpose using black on black crime statistics to justify anything about the Cherokee freedmen. Using totally unrelated biased information is often the most useful tactic of the extreme right. Can anyone say that crime statistics in 2010 have anything to do with denial people rights they have had since 1866. That's why I countered with biased data on Indian crimes, also totally unrelated to the issue.

The CBC represents 40 million voters. What does black on black crime statistics have to do with the Cherokee freedmen? Its sounds like Rush Limbaugh logic. Please explain...
I'm sorry but you sound like a white southern heritage racist, who wants to wave the confederate flag and expect black people across the country to send you tax money. What is the difference between this logic and the people who deny that your president is an American citizen, and claim they're not racists. You still haven't told what black on black crime has to do with the freedmen expulsion other than racism.
Think about it when white racists demand white power, what does that mean. When "Indians" use the same tactics to deny people their historical rights, what is it?




  The problem with all this you have now said, is that nobody including myself has ever said or even insinuated any of the gibberish you are posting here.

 You obviously must have a problem with comprehending what others say, or you are out right refusing to listen to anything anyone but yourself has to say. In that case, you have that right; however that right ends at trying to put words into the mouths of people accusing, and them of saying things they have never said.