Author Topic: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced  (Read 9525 times)

Offline ska

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Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
   
Okay, could someone help me understand this please?  Here's the link to the story:

http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/national/38477799.html

So this conference is coming up and includes well-known scholars, such as Leroy Little Bear, whose work I admire and have learned from. 

But here's the part I don't understand and it kind of makes me queasy:

"Internationally acclaimed scientists, teachers and artists, including water science pioneer Masaru Emoto . . . . will soon gather with Hopi traditional leaders and teachers, including Keeper of the Pipe Jerry Honawa and former Hopi Chairman Vernon Masayesva, to explore what new paradigms of understanding arise from the braiding of Western and traditional Hopi sciences."

I did not know that the Hopi people have a pipe tradition.  Can anyone educate me, please?

The conference is sponsored by the Black Mesa Trust (http://www.blackmesatrust.org) and others.  As I say, many well-known and important voices are involved.  Is this really going to be helpful?

Here's another quote from the article:

"Other . . . participants include: Angelita Borbon, Pasqua Yaqui practitioner of sacred science . . .Phillip Duran . . . former dean of science and mathematics at Northwest Indian College . . . Rabbi Nina Perlmutter, emeritus faculty and former chair, Philosophy and Religious Studies, Yavapai College; Al QÃyawayma, Hopi scientist, engineer and artist; Thomas Sisk, professor of Ecology. . . Northern Arizona University. . . "

 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 03:14:04 pm by Pat »

Offline kosowith

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2009, 10:22:09 am »
I forwarded your question on to a friend who is Hopi and who has worked on sacred sites issues with me in the past.  I will let you know what he says about Hopi pipe traditions as soon as he answers. 


Offline ska

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2009, 03:06:51 pm »
Good morning kosowith,

And thank you for your help.

Thing is, I know there is/was a Sun Dance at Black Mesa.  I think it was endorsed or supported by an AIM group, Leonard Crow Dog, Joe Flying Horse . . . but I also know that there were Hopi Elders dead set against this, concerned that these were not their traditions.  So I wondered if it is this imported tradition of the Pipe that is being expressed in this gentleman's work that will be presented at this conference, or if the Hopi have their own natural tradition of a pipe.

best, ska

Offline kosowith

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2009, 11:41:44 pm »
I don't know much about what the Hopi traditions are. Well actually I know nothing of any substance.  All I know is that an awful lot (all most all)of what has been published over the last 150 years of so, is pure rubbish.  According to a couple Hopi friends and colleagues they keep their traditions as far away from outside eyes as is possible, and “outside” includes other Hopi who are not of the same clan/kiva. The friend who I sent this question to, once told me that they are so careful with their knowledge that he has absolutely NO idea what goes on in his son's kiva and clan meetings, nor does he want to. It is not knowledge that he wants to deal with. (The Hopi are matrilineal so his son is not in the same clan as he is.) It has been this way since almost first contact, and got much worse after Pope's rebellion.  You just do not talk about sacred things with anyone who is not initiated.

About 10 years ago I was at a sacred lands conference, when a woman in the audience began to ask a Hopi elder about “The Hopi Prophesy.” The Hopi elder tried very nicely to deflect the question, but when she got really insistent about how this was important for everyone in the world, he just got up and walked out.  I do know that they say that the videos and books about the prophesy have really gotten it all wrong, but it is such a taboo subject I would never even mention it to anyone from the Mesas.

I do know that pipes have been found in archaeological sites in the area, so there is some tradition there, but as to their purpose, I have no idea.

frederica

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 12:41:42 am »
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/bigmtn9.htm                                                                                                                                                    This SunDance was held on what was disputed joint-use land by the Dineh.  The Big Mountain (Black Mesa) area was given to the Hopi in 2000 by a court decision, and the Dineh were to be evicted.  It's been almost 8 years so it's hard to find a working link.  It was very controversial.  I doubt if pipe use was adopted by the Hopi at this point in time.

Offline that_dakota_kid

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2009, 04:30:50 pm »
I don't know about Hopi pipe traditions but my uncle daced at Big Mountain in the late 80's and he recalls the hopis being dead set on trying to stop the sun dance by any means necessary. He recalled on tree day of one of those dances when they were transporting the tree via convoy most of them had to carry fire arms to get through the checker board. I'm not sure if the hopi have since then accepted those traditions but if it was that bad back then it probably is like that today. Just my opinion.

frederica

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2009, 05:34:09 pm »
I think it was stopped by BIA and Land Management Police.  Traditional Hopi didn't have anything to do with the destruction.  There were multiple statements made by them and others concerning the destruction.  The PeoplesPath.net had most of the statements, but link is not working well, for me anyway.  It was after the 2000 court decision that most of this happen.

Offline that_dakota_kid

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 06:28:48 pm »
Aaaaaah I see, thanks for the clarification. ;)

Offline kosowith

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 09:29:14 pm »
I have not heard back from my Hopi friends yet, but on a cautionary side, I think it is important to remember that all this conference call says is "pipe keeper" it does not indicate that he is doing this in a Lakota or any other nation's way.  Many, many groups from the Pikuni to the Oto had-have "pipe traditions" but they are not the same as Lakota. So this may be the same with the Hopi. He well may be an authentic pipe keeper in the Hopi tradition.

And Fredrica is absolutely correct, much of the problem around Black Mesa was from out siders (frequently non-Indian) who were taking one side or the other and doing destructive things.  But the people of the area got blamed. One of my professors in grad school had been an attorney on the Navajo-Hopi land despute and it was one of the most complicated in US history.  According to the suit transcripts, After the Long Walk and the closing of the detention camps the US just put groups where ever they felt there was a little extra space and so some of the Dineh were placed near Black Mesa, then after years and years of legal complaints by the Hopi and several court cases (abou 100 years or so of disputes), the Navajo were told to move back out of the area.  It is an absolutely heart breaking case for both sides. Also in the court papers was the statement that the camp set-up for the Sun Dance was going to desturb sacred sites.  There was no way to tell people what to avoid, because if the sites are mentioned to outsiders they die.  Anyway -it is a very, very complicated situation where it seems like almost everyone involved loses.





Offline ska

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 10:16:31 pm »
Thanks kosowith,

For bringing this back to the original issue that I raised.  The issue is not really about Black Mesa, it's about this academic conference which is promoting a "traditional Pipe keeper". 

If the Hopi prefer to keep knowledge of their ways to themselves, then there may be no way for non-Hopis to know whether or not this is their tradition.  However, since it is openly advertised in conference advertising . . .

This is really related to my larger concern about what we, as academics, are doing to support or confuse the work of traditional people to protect their ways from New Age and Christian mixing and matching.

best, ska

Offline kosowith

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2009, 11:17:58 pm »
That is the million dollar question, and I sure don’t have a “great answer.” At best it is always difficult to know what to do.  Last October I was invited down to Camp Verde to do an interview with two traditional elders about their culture resource management proposal. One from there and one from White Mountain. I asked what they thought of Sedona and all of the crazy people who misuse-abuse ceremonies and traditions who live and work there.  I asked if there wasn't something I and my colleagues could do to stop these people.  The two older men talked to each other in Apache for a moment and then told me gently but firmly – No, there was nothing I could do, or that they would condone our doing. Their policy was to do absolutely nothing. First - They did not feel that they had any right to say anything about traditions that were not theirs, as in the offering of the Plains traditions.  Especially, since they don't know if what is being done is right or wrong , correct or incorrect.  So they have a very hands-off policy. They said that the abuse and misuse of Apache traditions has come up for discussion in the elders meetings where all of the various Apache nations get together to discuss things of mutual interest and the consensus was that it would take care of itself.  Just like they want all items from museums taken by elders back to the desert to decompose in a natural way. They also said that if someone misuses medicine it will come back and do great damage to their lives.  It may take awhile, but it will happen.  They told me I was just too impatient.  I guess in my heart I know that they are correct.  I know and believe that this will come back to haunt these people, but in my imperfect, impatient way, I want to know it has.

Vincent said, that to answer my question about what should I do – he said “don’t do anything – leave Apache ceremonial things to the Apache ceremonial leaders, but if you really want to do something – support the language programs, and stay at the casino (laughter).”

So I guess the only thing is to do what the nations say they want done, even when that changes with different tribal governments.  If possible I try to pass my text  and reading selections by people in the tribal colleges or culture committees for validation.  I have to really keep telling myself NOT to generalize, even though it is part of the human condition I guess. Difference of opinions/traditions can be pretty intimidating sometimes.  I had one Lakota woman tell me I had to take off some small pipe ear rings that I was wearing, as she had been told by her uncle that it is improper to make images of a pipe.  However, they were given to me by a very respected elder and ceremonial leader from home in a ceremony.  So I guess that the bottom line is always, don’t assume what is correct one place will transfer to another.  I know I feel like I have to walk on egg shells every day and I always worry that something I say will be misrepresented. A couple of years ago we were talking about Sun Dance in a class and one of the students from Rocky Boy’s got up and said he could not stay in class if we mentioning the Sun Dance. (the discussion was NOT detailed, just about the fact that there were different ways groups renewed the world)  The funny part was the background information about the Cree Sun Dance that the instructor was using (and he is also a traditional medicine person from Rocky Boy’s)  was created by this student’s own uncle whom he said had told him not to talk about it. So you just never know.  I even watched two elders from the same family at an curriculum development conference this past summer start yelling at each other about what one had said.  So you just never know.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2009, 11:42:28 pm »
So they have a very hands-off policy. They said that the abuse and misuse of Apache traditions has come up for discussion in the elders meetings where all of the various Apache nations get together to discuss things of mutual interest and the consensus was that it would take care of itself.  ...  They also said that if someone misuses medicine it will come back and do great damage to their lives.  It may take awhile, but it will happen.  They told me I was just too impatient.  I guess in my heart I know that they are correct.  I know and believe that this will come back to haunt these people, but in my imperfect, impatient way, I want to know it has.

Yes,  I have heard this from trad folks in other communities, as well, and it has at times been frustrating. Some days I strongly agree; I can see (and feel) the slow, deep justice happening, and I  trust the powers that be. Other days I feel I have to fight and defend and hold the line "by whatever means necessary". Especially when people are being preyed upon. 

My nature is to want to protect other people. If someone is abusing ceremony, or if they're a predator using their knowledge of ceremony as bait to find themselves victims, I want them stopped. I want them stopped now. I know justice happens on its own timetable, but I can't help worrying about all the damage that inevitably happens until it finally catches up with them.

Some days I'm at peace with this. Other days I feel like I'm also on the eggshells.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 01:33:23 am by Kathryn »

Offline kosowith

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2009, 08:35:07 pm »
Just an FYI

I just got a mail from a Hopi friend about this questions.  His answer is as follows


Sorry for taking so long to respond, I was on travel these last two weeks. I know Jerry Honawa, he is the traditional advisor to Black Mesa Water Trust, founded by Vernon Masayesva, our past chairman. We do not have a keeper of the pipe, per se, like the Lakota or others, but he is Tobacco Clan, which would make him "one who takes care of tobacco". He is from the village of Hotevilla and is well respectied. Like I said, we don't have a pipe tradition as compared to plains' traditions, but we do hold pipes and smoking is a very important part in praying. When we smoke, the smoke carries our prayers, and because the tobacco makes one salivate like crazy, our saliva is spit onto natural sand, which represents rain coming down on earth. That is a VERY general explanation and there is much more to it, but our rules do not allow a deeper discussion. Hope thas helps. This conference is coming up at NAU I believe. 


Offline ska

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2009, 02:23:07 am »
Thank you, kosowith, for finding more information for me to consider.  much appreciated.  best, ska

Offline tachia

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Re: Traditional Hopi and Western Sciences braiding conference announced
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 02:35:57 am »
Just an FYI

I just got a mail from a Hopi friend about this questions.  His answer is as follows


Sorry for taking so long to respond, I was on travel these last two weeks. I know Jerry Honawa, he is the traditional advisor to Black Mesa Water Trust, founded by Vernon Masayesva, our past chairman. We do not have a keeper of the pipe, per se, like the Lakota or others, but he is Tobacco Clan, which would make him "one who takes care of tobacco". He is from the village of Hotevilla and is well respectied. Like I said, we don't have a pipe tradition as compared to plains' traditions, but we do hold pipes and smoking is a very important part in praying. When we smoke, the smoke carries our prayers, and because the tobacco makes one salivate like crazy, our saliva is spit onto natural sand, which represents rain coming down on earth. That is a VERY general explanation and there is much more to it, but our rules do not allow a deeper discussion. Hope thas helps. This conference is coming up at NAU I believe. 

NAU?????? tissy and zoi, et al NAU????? .. .. *shaking head* .. ..