Author Topic: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)  (Read 91985 times)

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Required reading for Toteg's Visar Guild: http://www.toteg.org/amazonvisarreading.htm

Harner's book The Way of the Shaman is required reading.

As are books by fraud Tom Brown Jr, who sells people wilderness training that includes fraudulent Apache teachings, that Brown claims to have received from a man who either never existed, or certainly wasn't Apache. Most likely Brown read books by ET Seton and Karl May and made it all up. Which can seriously endanger people, especially when you're claiming to teach them how to survive in the wilderness. You do not want a liar/fantasist teaching you survival skills. People wind up dead that way.

""The Tracker" is the introduction to Tom Brown and Grandfather. The story begins with the chance meeting between an ancient Apache and a New Jersey boy. It tells of an incredible apprenticeship in the Wild, learning all that is hidden from modern man... "The first track is the end of a string. At the far end, a being is moving; a mystery, dropping a hint about itself every so many feet, telling you more about itself until you can almost see it, even before you come to it.""

Thread on Tom Brown: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=269.0

Searching on his name from the main page will bring up numerous threads that mention Brown. Many frauds and exploiters cite him as a teacher.

There are a number of modern Pagans who really should know better, some of whom even claim to be against misappropriation, who admire Brown and incorporate his pretendian b.s. into their philosophies and ritual work. They love Brown because it's the classic White Saviour motif: "I met an old NDN. He's dead now. But he taught me his ceremonies [that just happen to look exactly like Harner's b.s.] and asked me to share them with the world, because the time has come to share all knowledge, the more seekrit the better. He had a vision about me and told me I was fulfilling prophecy. Did I mention he's dead now and I never met anyone else who knew him? Oh, and I'm not claiming to be NDN. I really respect NDNs and their right to self-determination. I met an NDN once. I'm just being a good supporter by doing what the [made up] Speshul NDN, who no one else had the privilege of knowing, told me to do. So I am helping those people. I take Mastercard and Visa and Paypal, by the way. Aho."

Epiphany

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They love Brown because it's the classic White Saviour motif: "I met an old NDN. He's dead now. But he taught me his ceremonies [that just happen to look exactly like Harner's b.s.] and asked me to share them with the world, because the time has come to share all knowledge, the more seekrit the better. He had a vision about me and told me I was fulfilling prophecy. Did I mention he's dead now and I never met anyone else who knew him? Oh, and I'm not claiming to be NDN. I really respect NDNs and their right to self-determination. I met an NDN once. I'm just being a good supporter by doing what the [made up] Speshul NDN, who no one else had the privilege of knowing, told me to do. So I am helping those people. I take Mastercard and Visa and Paypal, by the way. Aho."

I owe you and others here a huge debt of gratitude. So much of what I experienced in 20 + years of my life are discussed and clarified here in these forums. I'm learning so much, thank you all.

This classic White savior motif I saw played out with pseudo-Hinduism too.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 05:31:50 pm by Yells At Pretendians »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Thank you for all the excellent work you've been doing!

Offline Phillip63

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I've been away a long time, but I'm glad to see people tackled this topic, hard.  I laughed out loud when Yngona Desmond got exactly what she deserved.

Meanwhile it seems the thread I posted last summer about "shaman" Raven Kaldera still gets examined.  I am so grateful that this board exists and you're so diligent about maintaining it.  I had such aggressive activity on my dinky little Weebly site I was obliged to discontinue it and now one of the appropriators took the name and made it into a one-page insult.  Which is fine--I keep on calling out appropriators and engaging them in other venues.
"Acts of injustice done. Between the setting and the rising sun. In history lie like bones, each one."

Epiphany

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About Shamanic Work & Healing With Live Wood:
Guided meditations, practical healing work with LiveWood, stories about ancient folklore in Britain around 10000 BC and connecting to wild and tamed dryads

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The Dusty Millers are ShaMan of a tribe that lived just after the last ice age in Britain in an area nowadays known as Kent. They roamed the forests 'the weald of Kent', Andreds Wood in a radius of 25 miles having summer camps in the Medway area and winter camps more to the south in Canterbury. They know this area like the back of their hands.

They worship the Great Mother Goddess (like Venus of Willendorf) and their tribe was and is matriarchal. The Dusties (ShaMan) of the tribe were the spiritual guides who not only looked after the pigs but also after the well-being of every single member of the tribe.

http://www.humaniversity.com/calendar/2012-04/shamanic-work-and-healing-with-live-wood


Offline catbus

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Stepping into this discussion late, but I think a pagan version of NAFPS would be great.

Personally, I have met a number of pagans, some who were supposedly leaders of covens, some who were 'lone practitioners', and one a know-it-all anthro professor. And every singly one of them had absolutely no interest or concern in historical accuracy. The hippy ideal is that 'the world of spirituality everything is fair game'. The anthros are the worst, because they read and misunderstand traditions all over the world, and then they claim things are universal and can therefore be called pagan/wiccan/druid whatever the fluff. When it's really just lost white people playing reconstructionist roleplays that likely have not the slightest resemblance to anything from ancient europe.

So if there is a way to educate these people, or at least make an attempt, that would be good. But the appropriationistic and offensive pagans are never going to stop. They are so arrogant they think they have taken the world's indigenous traditions 'further' than any traditional culture. On top of that, every single one of them are sexually-obsessed and power-hungry, the type of people that are dangerous and egotistic.

One professor admitted to me that pretty much everything in pagan/wiccan garbage is either stoled or made up. for example, he told me that Aleister Crowley's bastardization and theft of Daoist concepts he learned in China, were changed and made into a foundational aspect of the modern wicca/pagan. I need to research into this. if they are ripping off Daoists and most of their community is unaware of it, I feel I'll need to write something to post online ripping all the pagans and wiccans to pieces for them to read. All them clowns need to leave Asian traditions alone, they just end up misunderstanding it and then teaching people these watered-down new-age fake shaman traditions out of it.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 06:42:57 pm by catbus »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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I would personally say, "inaccurate historical re-enactment" rather than "reconstructionist." Though there are plenty of people who lie about what they are doing, and use terms that are not accurate for what they are doing, the general consensus is that it's only religious reconstruction if it is accurate, or as accurate as humanly possible if a revived practice is too old to have anyone in living memory to help with the revival. Lots of cultures, including some who don't admit it, have had to do a certain amount of careful reconstruction based on old recordings of songs, stories and interviews with Elders, recorded before they died and took a wealth of information out with them. In some cultures even the language has needed to be reconstructed, and it's a serious scholarly and spiritual discipline.

Most Neopagans are flat-out allergic to that level of committment. I agree that there are a lot of Neopagans who think going to the Renaissance Faire is a spiritual experience. The ren faire is not religious reconstructionism, however;  it's a loose re-enactment, often as not anachronistic or even based on fantasy, and primarily for fun and profit. 

Crowley and the Golden Dawn definitely influenced Gerald Gardner's creation/collage of Wicca, which in turn became the template for most of the Neopagan community. Gardner misappropriated a lot of things from various Asian and South Asian Peoples, so I wouldn't be surprised if out of context bits of Daoism are in there as well. As white Englishmen, directly involved in and benefiting from colonialism, I think it's clear both Gardner and Crowley saw it as their inherent right, and even duty, to misappropriate from, and dominate, other cultures.  In their work they both demonstrated repeatedly that they were completely comfortable with dabbling in what they believed to be another culture's sacred rites and beliefs, then declaring themselves the supreme experts of things they had barely glimpsed.

Sadly, that trend has continued with the heavy levels of misappropriation in the mainstream of the contemporary Pagan community, which in so many ways can no longer be distinguised from the Nuage communities. It's so bad that white folks like me, who are involved in our ancestral ways, don't go near the mainstream of that community anymore. But I went into most of that upthread already.

Offline catbus

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I would personally say, "inaccurate historical re-enactment" rather than "reconstructionist."

Crowley and the Golden Dawn definitely influenced Gerald Gardner's creation/collage of Wicca, which in turn became the template for most of the Neopagan community. Gardner misappropriated a lot of things from various Asian and South Asian Peoples, so I wouldn't be surprised if out of context bits of Daoism are in there as well. As white Englishmen, directly involved in and benefiting from colonialism, I think it's clear both Gardner and Crowley saw it as their inherent right, and even duty, to misappropriate from, and dominate, other cultures.  In their work they both demonstrated repeatedly that they were completely comfortable with dabbling in what they believed to be another culture's sacred rites and beliefs, then declaring themselves the supreme experts of things they had barely glimpsed.

Sadly, that trend has continued with the heavy levels of misappropriation in the mainstream of the contemporary Pagan community, which in so many ways can no longer be distinguised from the Nuage communities. It's so bad that white folks like me, who are involved in our ancestral ways, don't go near the mainstream of that community anymore. But I went into most of that upthread already.


Thank you for clarifying about this. Do you perhaps know some resources that may tell which lineages of Dao/Tao was used by people such as Crowley? Other useful information could be things where he studied, how long he studied, etc. If you could point me in the right direction, that would be great.

The problem with what people are doing, by mixing up a little bit from here and there, is they twist the meanings before ever even experiencing them through true living and cultivation of those teachings. So when they claim to be using those teachings, or to have 'evolved' them to a better and more effective system, it is rather arrogant and ethnocentric to put it lightly.

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I would personally say, "inaccurate historical re-enactment" rather than "reconstructionist." Though there are plenty of people who lie about what they are doing, and use terms that are not accurate for what they are doing, the general consensus is that it's only religious reconstruction if it is accurate, or as accurate as humanly possible if a revived practice is too old to have anyone in living memory to help with the revival. Lots of cultures, including some who don't admit it, have had to do a certain amount of careful reconstruction based on old recordings of songs, stories and interviews with Elders, recorded before they died and took a wealth of information out with them. In some cultures even the language has needed to be reconstructed, and it's a serious scholarly and spiritual discipline.

Yes, this has often had to be done with cultures who have been colonized, facing rapid extinction especially.
I personally have a problem with it when they are not up front about it though. Often things get misinterpreted, lost etc, and it is really misleading unless people are honest and entirely upfront that what they are doing is reconstructed, and what it is reconstructed from.

I will give an example to show what I mean:
There are many Korean traditions that had to be preserved after the holocaust known as the japanese invasion, because during the occupation all form of cultural expression were outlawed. Some of the Daoist-healing and Martial arts lineages were preserved because there were only one or two surviving old masters who had studied when they were children before the occupation. This old knowledge/experience was combined w/ any other info passed down, info gleaned from paintings, writings, anything else passed down, etc, and the younger masters/scholars worked to preserve the traditions so the people could have them in the culture again.

But generally in such a case, the people are honest about it the traditions being nearly lost and having to 'reconstruct' some aspects'. There is nothing wrong with this ofcourse, it is saving culture for the benefit of the culture and the people to learn/practice/embrace.

Ok, but then sometimes some arrogant bogus knowitall comes along, with not alot of knowledge or experience, and claims to have preserved ancient cutural traditions. often these people are amateur reconstructionist who are NOT honest about their 're-enactment' or attempt at reconstructionism. Anyways, one such person was Ilchi Lee, the founder of 'Dahn Yoga', 'Dahn Daoist Healing Center', 'Dahn Tai Chi', etc. It was all bogus but they fooled so many people, had centers all over the place. And a few years bac, some lady died at one of there centers in Arizona. They have hurt and traumatized a ton of other gullible students and patients also.

Similar examples of such fake, harmful, dangerous, and offensive re-enactment can be found in most traditions, whether it be the some fake shamans here from the states, or some fake masters/gurus from China/Tibet/India. There are always fake lineages popping up, and half the time the leaders might actually think they are doing something real, because they don't realize how far-fetched there secret attempts at reconstructionism are.

The sad thing is how people keep getting hurt by such frauds, thinking it's the real-deal cultural tradition. They don't do their research to find out if it's just more silly re-enactment (aka failed reconstructionism).

Furthermore, it seems to me that an individual practitioner, scholar, or cannot truly 'reconstruct' a culture or cultural tradition. I would think that only a people/coherent-community must do it for it to become something they can rightfully call a revived and authentic cultural tradition. Such as with Korean people working together to revive certain cultural traditions that were nearly lost. That is a true examples of honest and authentic reconstructionism.

So maybe when cross-examining people should ask themselves "who is making these claims of recovering cultural traditions? Is it is just one supposed master, guru, or one supposed shaman guy? Or is it a real people and real culture concerned with honoring the ways of their ancestors?"
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 05:33:13 pm by Yells At Pretendians »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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I really don't know that much about Crowley's background. I doubt he learned anything legitimate. Most people couldn't stand him when he was alive; he tried to join lots of occult groups who wouldn't accept him as a member. Or he'd be accepted and then kicked out.  I don't think any legitimate spiritual leader would have tolerated him.  I've always found him scummy and repellent. I get such bad vibes from his photos, writings, artwork, etc. that I don't even allow them in my house.

You're right: The first rule of reconstructionism is honesty. This means citing one's sources, and being impeccable about indicating what is cultural continuity and what has had to be carefully reconstructed from historical record. It can't be done in isolation. Like any viable lifeway, people have to have the checks and balances of community and elders, otherwise it's too easy for people to get caught up in illusion or self-aggrandizement.

Most Pagans do not want those checks and balances. About five years ago there was a major split in some of the reconstructionist communities when we found out that some were wanting to use the word while not upholding the principles. It's still happening. We've had people go online and do huge rants about reconstructionism without having a clue what it means in the context of our current communities.  Or worse, sometimes they do know but they have some weird agenda - either that of trying to claim no reconstruction has been needed when they are using reconstructed materials themselves, or of ignorantly proclaiming there's not enough that survives to even attempt it. It usually comes down to people not knowing the cultural communities or the field.

Epiphany

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The teacher, Gudni Gudnason, is a Celtic Medicine Man. Gudni learned this Magick from some very special ladies during his training at the British Mystery School. These ladies were genuine Wicca Priestesses. Gudni's intent is to pass this Female knowledge on to you.

http://www.thelivinglightfoundation.com/classesSpells.php

This is on his dedicated thread on Frauds, also want to stash it here, as a perfect example of weirdness.

"Celtic Medicine Man"?

Offline Defend the Sacred

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As I posted in the other thread:

Wicca isn't Celtic. Celts don't/didn't have "Medicine Men." "Magick" is a Crowley spelling, again, with nothing to do with anything Celtic.

And if this wasn't already screaming fraud, a big, gigantic red flag is any man who says he's going to teach "fertility Magick" to women.

Bad, bad scene.

Epiphany

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One of Gudni's top people is Verla Wade, she says she "serves as a Celtic Shaman".

http://www.universalkabbalah.net/VerlaWade

She teaches "dragon magick" http://www.thelivinglightfoundation.com/classesdragonmagick.php

Along with "Isis healing", "core gene replacement", along with other weirdness.

Gudni passing on "this Female knowledge" - so creepy.




Offline Defend the Sacred

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Again, anyone calling themselves a "Celtic Shaman" is a fraud.

Epiphany

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Again, anyone calling themselves a "Celtic Shaman" is a fraud.

Web searching on "Celtic Shaman" brings up lots of frauds. Including Society of Celtic Shamans:

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Aren't you really just 'ripping off' Native American traditions when you say you teach a shamanic path?

It is true that when one hears the word shaman the picture most usually called to mind is that of an elderly First Nations American man wearing a mask and beating a drum. In reality, most First Nations 'shamans' do not use that term at all. They prefer the term Medicine Man or Medicine Woman. Shamanism is practised all over the world and no one clan or tribe, people or nation can claim to have the exclusive right to practice and teach the shamanic traditions. But it is important that each clan and tribe, each nation and people teach their own traditions

http://www.faeryshaman.org/shamanfaq.htm#sha1

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Shamans with Celtic ancestors are Celtic shamans. There never were any people who called themselves Celts. The word Celtic describes both a culture and a group of languages. In Western Europe, the countries we now call France, Spain, Switzerland, and Belgium were all Celtic speaking areas in the 1st century BCE, as were Wales, Britain, Scotland, The Isle of Man, Ireland, the Orkneys and the Channel Islands. The entire west was Celtic. Therefore, anyone who is descended from people who lived in these regions has Celtic ancestors. Shamans with Celtic ancestors are Celtic shamans. We must, however, remember that the terms Celtic Shaman and Faery Shaman are very new. They were both coined within the last ten or fifteen years as the need to describe the Western European path was necessary. No one can claim to be descended from an unbroken line of Celtic Shamans stretching back to the builders of Stonehenge.
http://www.bodymindspiritonline.com/bodymindspirit/edition13/22_profile_tira.htm



« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 05:34:01 pm by Yells At Pretendians »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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The term "Celtic Shaman" was coined out of the white guilt of a bunch of people practicing Harner "core shamanism" who wanted to pretend they had an ethnic tradition. They do extreme violence to the surviving ways of the six Celtic nations as well as the Native ways Harner harmed when he threw them in his anthro blender and pressed "liquify."

"Faery Shaman" (under various spellings) was first used by a Wiccan in California in the sixties or seventies. I'm not sure what he was doing, but he was also a folk singer. "Fairy" is an English term, misapplied to some of the spirits in other cultures, usually with the denigration of powerful (and large) spirits to something akin to tiny Victorian flower fairies or twee little people. (There are some spirits who are little, but most others are larger than humans.) There is a living tradition of interaction with the spirit world that is sometimes translated into English as "The Fairy Faith" (not giving the Gaelic here, as there are data miners reading), but that is about simple offerings and customs and has nothing to do with "journeying" or pretendian ceremonies.

Most of them think any white person can be called "Celtic" when actually the only surviving Celtic cultures are those who still speak a Celtic language (GĂ idhlig, Gaeilge, Gaelg, Cymraeg, Kernewek, or Brezhoneg) and in order to understand the cultural survivals, you need the language, and to take the spiritual ways on their own terms, without trying to shove them into a pretendian-shaped mold.

Painting knotwork or spirals on a stolen Plains-style drum and howling vocables is no more Celtic than Native. These types only get away with what they do because so many people are ignorant about the living cultures.