Even advertising a Sweat Lodge ceremony raises concerns . All the Elders I have known were horrified at people advertising ceremonies . There is a very strong feeling , the right way for people to come to a ceremony , is for people to come and offer tobbaco ask for help . There is reason things are done in this way .
Some of the links seem outdated , so I am not sure if Tim was actually charging for ceremonies , but if he was , there isn't much question this is wrong . ( except in the minds of some people who support exploitation or don't know better )
If you look at the top of the "Research needed" page , "About this catagory" , it says ;
"Anyone whose website blatantly states a price being charged for a ceremony IS A FRAUD. Period. No research needed!"
And then there is this ;
http://www.newagefraud.org/Native people DO NOT believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching. Any who charge you even a penny are NOT authentic.
If anything I think people here tend to give exploiters the benifit of any small doubt , and probably a lot of people posted other places, rightly belong in the "frauds" catagory .
nahualqo
I believe it is important that you retain your credibility by refusing to go into extremism against Native Americans. McCarthism is passe. Unless you are from their tribal culture and you have the authority to judge another Native American from within their unique tribal beliefs, I would suggest to err on the side of leniency where Native Americans are concerned.
nahualqo
If someone is abusing tribal knowledge, responsibility or wisdom that falls back upon the Nation to police their own people.
nahualqo
I agree with your interests in exposing frauds but I am not comfortable with you standing as judge and jury of another Native American if he or she is practicing their own traditions for foreign audiences.
What you are saying is that non native people ( who are so often the only audience these frauds and exploiters can get ) , don't have the authority to make a judgement that someone is a fraud or an exploiter , even if they are selling ceremonies , and going against the wishes of their tribal Elders . You are also saying Native people and Elders who ARE authorities on their culture , who repeatedly say selling ceremonies is NOT OK , can't be supported by anyone except people in their own tribe .
If this is really your opinion , it would make it impossible to stop exploiters from setting up buisness in any non native community.
Selling ceremonies is not acceptable in almost all tribal traditions . The people who do this are almost always exploiters . Being involved with exploiters may be dangerous to peoples well being . But you seem to be suggesting non native people don't have a right to protect other non native people by educating people in their community how to recognize and avoid frauds and exploiters ?
nahualqo
Still you are self appointed in your duties.
Supporting traditional people and Elders in their request that the commercial exploitation of traditions stops , is not being "self appointed". If you haven't personally known any Elders who were upset by the commercialization of Spiritual traditions , I can only conclude you haven't known many ( or any ) Elders .
nahualqo
I agree with momma porcupine about defending against outright frauds.
We probably agree on some things , but I am just as opposed to exploitation as I am to outright frauds . By the sounds of many of your comments nahualqo , you aren't really clear why selling ceremonies and Spiritual traditions should be considered a problem at all .
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1074.0nahualqo reply #2
I am new here but I can sum things up pretty quickly. Not only are you involved with religious policing but you are attacking some people's livelihood.
Oh I see , if people are degrading Spiritual traditions by turning them into a commercial enterprise , and we say anything about it , we are ATTACKING their livelihood?
nahualqo
I don't have any sympathy for those that are making money on our beliefs falsely but you have got to know that you are sticking your foot into two areas people most often hold sacred, their religious beliefs and their money and their money is usually the more sacred.
I really doubt anyone selling religion holds that religion sacred , which brings us back to your point about how mean and nasty we are , by getting in the way of people selling someone elses religion .
nahualqo
Also, you should not let yourself become extremists. Let the other side turn to extremism it ruins their credibility. Strategically speaking it is always best if you hold the middle ground where you can remain on solid footing with yourself and others.
If we support those Elders who say "OUR SPIRITUALITY IS NOT FOR SALE " we are extremists ? Are you suggesting the middle ground would be agreeing people should be able to make "some" money selling ceremonies ? Even if ALL the Elders who are not known exploiters all say NO ? Again I am sure the exploiters would completely agree with your opening up an opprotunity for them . A "middle ground" . I resent being called an "extremist" for not supporting some peoples shallow monetrary self intrest .
nahualqo
I am reluctant to accept your judgement against Native Americans as authoritative because you are not of their culture or tradition.
nahualqo
However, any judgement that leads to shame is something that is powerful that should be weilded by those in authority to judge their offenses is any were made according their their tradition.
If someone is selling ceremonies , and Elders in their tribe say it isn't OK , those Elders DO have the authority to say that , and people have a right to support those Elders in their protests , whether exploiters like it or not . You would think anyone who actually cares about preserving uncorrupted traditions would greatly appreciate any strong voice that supports the Elders and speaks out against those commercializing Spiritual traditions . Ingeborg does that really well . If you actually cared about traditions as you profess , I would expect you would support her , but instead you repeatedly say things that point to another agenda , one that opens the way for exploitation .
nahualqo
I need to hear from those that have instructed Non-Natives to officiate their particular cerimonies to understand their reasoning.
Maybe you need to hear from some of the communities and people who have been affected by these non Lakota who are leading Lakota ceremonies outside the Lakota community . If these Lakota Elders want these people leading Lakota ceremonies so much , why don't they keep them in the Lakota community ? It should be the community served that decides it's Spiritual leaders , not someone from somewhere else .
And what an interesting double standard - you are suggesting it is OK for tribal ceremonies to be passed outside the tribe , but then you declare that when this happens, no one outside the tribe , in the community where they come to be practiced , should have any role in policing them . Sounds like you are advocating to make things easy for exploiters to exploit without interferance . Is that your intention here?
Quote frederica
Some Nations Medicine People are paid for services and Ceremonies, some are not.
It would be helpful if you could specify which nations pay their Medicine people and for what services , and if these services are something that might be rightly sold outside the Nation . I know the Navajho are paid for conducting a sing , and Curandero's in South America are paid for personal assistance . Maybe you know some other examples ? As we are trying to educate people how to recognize and avoid frauds and exploiters , and we repeatedly tell people charging for ceremonies is wrong , it kind of muddies the message to say some in Nations this is OK , without giving specific information .
