NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: Ken on March 24, 2006, 01:36:38 am
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My name really is Ken and let me tell you a little about who I am and who I am not. My heritage is not Native American as far as I can find out from any genealogy research I've done. My ancestors were Celts. As near as can be determined I am of the Red Deer Clan that migrated to the British Isles in the 2nd Century BC. So other than just an interest in things Native American, why am I here?
A great deal has been written and said about New Age usurpation of Native American spirituality. I am totally sympathetic to that because I am a near death experiencer and we have the same problems. The New Age movement has attempted to hijack nde's and migrate them into some kind of pseudo-religion for years. Sadly, a number of experiencers, like some Native Americans, will jump on the bandwagon for a few bucks.
More to the point. Because of my extremely awakened spirituality and awareness since my experience in 1996 I have taken a great interest in things of a spiritual nature. I have also had a number of visions since that time. I have visions without any kind of sweat lodge, or other ceremony, they just arrive. I also have a keen awareness of why I was sent back (yes, SENT back). Last Fall I was made to know I was to prepare for the healing of the Earth Mother and her children. I have been made to know I am to pursue a shamanic path for healing. For me to journey into the other realms is something I do often and easily so I already understand the spirits/energy in everything. What I need to learn is how to direct this into healing. This is where the problem comes in. I am not Native American and have no intention of ever calling myself a "Shaman" or charging for any service, or writing a book, or making a movie or anything else but healing. So how do I get past the "plastic shaman" label to learn?
Well, that’s a lot to put in an introduction but that is what I’m about.
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My name really is Ken and let me tell you a little about who I am and who I am not. My heritage is not Native American as far as I can find out from any genealogy research I've done. My ancestors were Celts. As near as can be determined I am of the Red Deer Clan that migrated to the British Isles in the 2nd Century BC.
Hi Ken, welcome aboard. You're able to trace your ancestry back over 2000 years to a particular clan? That's frankly incredible. I can find no mention online of this Red Deer clan, except on role-playing sites and in your own posts on other message boards. Archaelogists tend to use the web a lot; I can only assume this clan is currently unknown to archaeology.
Thirdly, the various people often called Celtic in the British Isles never called themselves that. There was no cross-European Celtic culture. See
James, Simon. The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention? British Museum Press, 1999.
Collis, John. The Celts - Origins, Myths & Inventions. Stroud: Tempus Publishing, 2003.
So how do I get past the "plastic shaman" label to learn?
If you search this message board you'll find threads discussing the origin of the concept of shamanism. It's an entirely Western idea which is projected onto indigenous people by academics and hucksters. See also
Kehoe, Alice Beck. Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exercise in Critical Thinking. Prospect Heights, Illinois: Waveland Press. 2000.
Hutton, Ronald. Shamanism: Siberian Spirituality and the Western Imagination. London: Hambledon & London, 2001.
Wernitznig, Dagmar. Going Native or Going Naive?: White Shamanism and the Neo-Noble Savage. Lanham, Maryland: University Press of America, 2003.
Noel, Daniel C. The Soul of Shamanism: Western Fantasies, Imaginal Realities. 1997. New York: Continuum.
Jenkins, Philip. Dream Catchers: How Mainstream America Discovered Native Spirituality. Oxford University Press. 2004.
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Mr. MacEwan, you know better than that. Shamanism is NOT a western idea.
Quote: (The Archaeology of Shamanism )"When a dissident priest called Avvakum arrived in the lands of the nomadic, reindeer-herding Evenki in the early 1650's, having been exiled to central Siberia by the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, no outsider had ever heard of a saman, let alone written the word down or explored the cosmological understandings that underpinned its meaning. By the time of his execution for heresy in 1682, Avvakum's descriptions communicated during his sojourn among the Evenki had already laid the foundations for what anthropologists would later term the study of shamanism."
(for info on Avvakum see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avvakum )
The word "shamanism", and related words, are often used as terms of communication rather than definition.
Ken, do a little more research. And be careful what you say on this forum. Mr. MacEwan, and others of his ilk, love to prove their own infallibility.
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Shamanism is NOT a western idea.
Quote: (The Archaeology of Shamanism )"When a dissident priest called Avvakum arrived in the lands of the nomadic, reindeer-herding Evenki in the early 1650's, having been exiled to central Siberia by the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, no outsider had ever heard of a saman, let alone written the word down or explored the cosmological understandings that underpinned its meaning. By the time of his execution for heresy in 1682, Avvakum's descriptions communicated during his sojourn among the Evenki had already laid the foundations for what anthropologists would later term the study of shamanism."
I haven't read this book, and I doubt you have after seeing its list price at amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415252547/103-5583251-1614230?v=glance&n=283155)[/url]. Try reading that quote, viewable at amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0415252547/ref=sib_fs_bod/103-5583251-1614230?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S00I&checkSum=wQZ69N46O7wO7teZ9MY58Izhf66ItpDeplUG4SDb%2BIY%3D#reader-page), again. Do you see the part at the end where it says that (Western) anthropologists coined the term 'shamanism'? There's another interesting passage on the next page:
The notion of a collective pattern of belief - shamanism - arose first when the Christian missions began to seriously target the Siberian peoples for conversion, and thus sought to identify a pagan religion towards the overthrow of which they could concentrate their efforts.
According to that author anthropologists and missionaries developed the concept of shamanism. If that's the best evidence you can find that shamanism is non-Western, then you're stuck. You've had a few years by now to find some: in 2003, writing as 'haidadawn' on one of NAFPS' precursor lists, you had this same argument with me (http://newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=archive1;action=display;num=1123359928;start=0#0)[/b], and the evidence you produced then was just as poor as your latest effort, though I guess quoting academic literature is a step up from a Canadian tourism site. I think it's you who knows better, or ought to by now.
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Hi Ken, welcome aboard. You're able to trace your ancestry back over 2000 years to a particular clan? That's frankly incredible. I can find no mention online of this Red Deer clan, except on role-playing sites and in your own posts on other message boards. Archaelogists tend to use the web a lot; I can only assume this clan is currently unknown to archaeology.
Thirdly, the various people often called Celtic in the British Isles never called themselves that. There was no cross-European Celtic culture. See
James, Simon. The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention? British Museum Press, 1999.
Collis, John. The Celts - Origins, Myths & Inventions. Stroud: Tempus Publishing, 2003.
If you search this message board you'll find threads discussing the origin of the concept of shamanism. It's an entirely Western idea which is projected onto indigenous people by academics and hucksters. See also
Kehoe, Alice Beck. Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exercise in Critical Thinking. Prospect Heights, Illinois: Waveland Press. 2000.
Hutton, Ronald. Shamanism: Siberian Spirituality and the Western Imagination. London: Hambledon & London, 2001.
Wernitznig, Dagmar. Going Native or Going Naive?: White Shamanism and the Neo-Noble Savage. Lanham, Maryland: University Press of America, 2003.
Noel, Daniel C. The Soul of Shamanism: Western Fantasies, Imaginal Realities. 1997. New York: Continuum.
Jenkins, Philip. Dream Catchers: How Mainstream America Discovered Native Spirituality. Oxford University Press. 2004.
Very good points. The Red Deer Clan refers to my family name that is derived from that Clan name. The migration of that Clan was discovered by a friend of mine who was researching a novel in Scotland based on historic facts. I doubt it is widely disributed information but it is available in texts in one of their libraries. Even though they did not call themselves "Celts" it is certainly a name used to refer to the migrations that took place after their defeat about 300 BCE. The Red Deer Clan name is nearly unpronouncable in English so that it is no wonder they adopted the Anglicised version by the 11th Century. The paternal genealogy has only been traced definitively back to the early 18th Century and the maternal side to the 16th Century (there is a fully traced English Lord in there) but the family name is very old in what is now Scotland/Ireland. So, the full genealogy is a bit of an assumption based on the family name but considering the trace-back done so far it appears to be a fair assumption.
The term "shamanism" is only a name (Siberian origin from what I understand) but the practice is known back into the Paleolithic period based in interpretations of the French cave drawings. Also, many same or similar practices appear world-wide in many cultures in many countries. Rituals may differ but the intent remains constant.
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Actually Ganieda, not even many Siberians use the term shaman, or the word of their it allegedly came from. What I take Barnaby to mean is that claiming you can somehow label all tribal beliefs as shamanism or shamanic or any other anthropologist or Nuage or western cultural label is inaccurate.
Ken, my suggestion is that you look within your own heritage, as difficult as that is. As you'll probably find out the hard way if you haven't already, there are a lot of frauds, exploiters, and naive or misguided people claiming to be pagan healers or "shamans".
We do have threads about recommended books for pagans (made by pagans who themselves are fed up with false information.)
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'siyo Ken,
welcome to the site.
After reading your post I had to give it a lot of thought.Having been in the medical profession for many years i have heard of many near death experiences and yes many speak of a new spiritual awareness.
When did this experience happen?? Where did the word shaman come from? Be cautious?? Be sure you are listening to what is right. Did this vision you had say for you to be a shaman?? You really need to question that?
Whatever you choose to do, it's a personal journey for you. Sit with that, listen to your heart. If it's to be ,a Elder or medicine person will come to you, you will not need to seek them out, thats the way of things. Sit,Be still with these things, spend time with mother earth, nature and above all LISTEN. What you will learn will be free, Don't go seeking these newage teachings. WADO
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'siyo Ken,
welcome to the site.
After reading your post I had to give it a lot of thought.Having been in the medical profession for many years i have heard of many near death experiences and yes many speak of a new spiritual awareness.
When did this experience happen?? ? Where did the word shaman come from? Be cautious?? Be sure you are listening to what is right. Did this vision you had say for you to be a shaman?? You really need to question that?
Whatever you choose to do, it's a personal journey for you. Sit with that, listen to your heart. If it's to be ,a Elder or medicine person will come to you, you will not need to seek them out, thats the way of things. Sit,Be still with these things, spend time with mother earth, nature and above all LISTEN. ? What you will learn will be free, Don't go seeking these newage teachings. ? ? WADO
I agree wholeheartedly. My experience was in 1996. Feeling the need to be involved in healing came last year. The term "shaman" was not part of that vision, it is a convenient term of communication only. My first experience of being with the earth was soon after my experience. After months in a wheelchair I felt the desire to take up fly fishing. I taught my self and headed up into the mountain streams of Virginia. Using a cane to steady myself in the clear cold mountain streams my crushed leg healed far beyond my surgeon's best hopes. To this day I feel a strong bond with the Appalachian Brook trout, a beautiful little fish that survived the last Ice Age. They are survivors and taught me to survive despite seemingly insurmountable pain and hardship. The vision to be a healer is the third of four visions that are related. Visions are something I have not been prone to in life and were something I considered the results of delusions until my experience.
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Hi Ken,
I am very concerned about all the info you are sharing. My concern lies in the fact that there are so many, frauds and sleezy people who watch these boards waiting for someone who may be confused as to what is going on in there life and will trie to pull you into a dangerous situation.
BE VER CAUTIOUS MY FRIEND..
What walking-soft said is very wise. Helping others with healing can come in many forms. Anyone calling themselves a shaman is a phoney nor will you hear a Holy Man, Medicine man ever tell you they are one. You say you came up with the word shaman, please take that out of your vocabulary that in its self is the wrong path.
Wado Thomas
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Hi Ken,
I am very concerned about all the info you are sharing. My concern lies in the fact that there are so many, frauds and sleezy people who watch these boards waiting for someone who may be confused as to what is going on in there life and will trie to pull you into a dangerous situation. ?
BE VER CAUTIOUS MY FRIEND..
What walking-soft said is very wise. Helping others with healing can come in many forms. Anyone calling themselves a shaman is a phoney nor will you hear a Holy Man, Medicine man ever tell you they are one. You say you came up with the word shaman, please take that out of your vocabulary that in its self is the wrong path.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Wado Thomas
Thanks, I understand where you're coming from. The word "shaman" has become one of those easy-to-use cliche's to incorporate a lot of things. I understand how each culture has names for its healers and I guess what I didn't want to do was to say I want to learn from XXXXXX healers or from YYYYYY healers. I really didn't want to limit my learning. Learning in life never ends and I didn't want to miss opportunities by casting boundaries! Now the other quandry, not to use "shaman" and yet not to be specific to a cultural name!
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The term "shamanism" is only a name (Siberian origin from what I understand) but the practice is known back into the Paleolithic period based in interpretations of the French cave drawings. Also, many same or similar practices appear world-wide in many cultures in many countries. Rituals may differ but the intent remains constant.
The existence of shamanism is inferred, not known, from things like rock art, but that inference is based on racist assumptions about 'primitive' people. I can see you're familiar with the basic ideology of shamanism: I'd urge you to read some of the critical books I've listed.
This is Alice Kehoe, cited above, pp 71-72:
Years ago, when I was living on an Indian reservation in Montana, an elderly lady told me that when she was a child on the Gros Ventre Reservation in the eastern part of the state, her family met two other families every summer to spend about a week berry-picking. [...] The Gros Ventre elder recounted that it would happen that one family arrived at the rendesvous, a prominent landmark cliff, several days before the others, and to pass the time, the waiting children liked to draw and peck pictures on the rock face. [...] Debate rages [among archaeologists] over a proposition that all paintings and petroglyphs [...] attributable to ancient and to contemporary hunter-gatherers are attempts by shamans to depict what they see in trance. Proponents of this theory are convinced that all these paintings and pecked-rock pictures come out of religious beliefs that contrast with our Western religions: beliefs in spirit animals hallucinated by shamans. Cultural primitivism! (http://www2.english.uiuc.edu/finnegan/English%20251/primitivism.htm) Arthur Lovejoy and George Boas would have shouted. [...] In other words, here again is the hoary Western assumption that if you aren't a literate, city-dwelling citizen of a major nation, then you are unsophisticated, emotional, primitive, and unable to figure out the difference between dreams, hallucinations, and reality. There's no room in these grand theories for children making pictures to pass the time while their mamas are picking berries.
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The existence of shamanism is inferred, not known, from things like rock art, but that inference is based on racist assumptions about 'primitive' people. I can see you're familiar with the basic ideology of shamanism: I'd urge you to read some of the critical books I've listed.
This is Alice Kehoe, cited above, pp 71-72:
I agree that most all the anthropological studies I've read discuss "primitive people" or "superstitious cultures." I would disagree this is largely racist and say it is more egocentric and cultural elitism. Just like the aftermath of wars, the ones doing the writing design the history. That being said I can also see the usefulness of some of this writing as it does convey some useful information even with its cultural bias. Not to be facetious but I'm sitting here now thinking of that TV commercial based on "So simple even a CAVEMAN can do it!"
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An Elder Pueblo once said the following: many non-indians come looking for something. They do not realize it's like going to plant a seed, you put that seed in there and then you take care of it. You water it and nuture it, give it love and everything. Then it grows into a plant.
Ken I believe that is where you have to start. The seeds have been planted and now it's time to start over, simply take care of you, water what has been given you and nuture it, give love and after a while, maybe a long while it will start to grow. Patients.....
Many Elders have taught non-indians and given them directions, but as soon as the non-indian people receive those instructions, they think they are qualified to do sweat lodge. So they go ahead and do it without really understanding the process of how thew spirits come in. So this make the Elders and all natives so afraid for people who know very little about these things. Sometimes it's not good spirits or visions that come in. So Ken you can see why the concern for you.
I said all that to say this Ken. The American society is, is you seperate and you label everything. You've got to have a term for this, and so words that are created are really big words like shaman, or all these other new age terms denoting some link to American Indian but in fact is not.
Ken why do you need to label, why not just be. Go about your life quietly. We have what is called Indian Time, it will happen when its suppose to if at all. wado
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Ken why do you need to label, why not just be. Go about your life quietly. We have what is called Indian Time, it will happen when its suppose to if at all. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? wado
That is pretty much where I'm coming to. In one of my favorite SciFi books the character Michael Valentine Smith says "When waiting is fulfilled."
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I haven't read this book, and I doubt you have after seeing its list price at amazon.
Mr. McEwan, once again you jump to conclusions and make assumptions. The link you posted for the book "The Archeology of Shamanism" is ridiculous. This book is also available for much less cost, not to mention that anyone can find it thro a library system.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415252555/qid=1143324190/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3484703-1847927?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
...sought to identify a pagan religion towards the overthrow of which they could concentrate their efforts.
According to that author anthropologists and missionaries developed the concept of shamanism.
They didn't develop the concept, they needed to identify a religion, so they gave it a name. You can't very well overthrow something if it does not exist. It did exist, (although most of the beliefs would more properly be termed "animism"), so "shamanism" is the name they gave it as there was no other term to describe it or to use to communicate the idea.
Also, you seem to be obsessed with the book "Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exercise in Critical Thinking" by Alice Beck Kehoe. I'm wondering if you have ever read any of her other books as well? For example, perhaps, "The Ghost Dance: Ethnohistory and Revitalization". It's a fascinating book.
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One other thing, Mr. McEwan, that puzzles me. You list on your recommended books
The Soul of Shamanism: Western Fantasies, Imaginal Realities
And yet, blurbs for the book read: Noel provides a model for renewed shamanic seeking. Through dreams and imaginings can come the spirituality of imaginal healing, and the loss of imagination equates to the loss of the soul.
and Ultimately, Noel concludes that the "nonliteral reality" found within the fairy tales created by Casteneda and company can, indeed, contribute to spiritual growth.
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I'm posting this in a new topic since I think we've gatecrashed Ken's intro thread long enough.
Mr. McEwan, once again you jump to conclusions and make assumptions. The link you posted for the book "The Archeology of Shamanism" is ridiculous. This book is also available for much less cost, not to mention that anyone can find it thro a library system.
Whatever: if you've read it after all, you could just have said so. Its price isn't as relevant as what its introduction says: the opposite of what you seem to think it says.
They didn't develop the concept, they needed to identify a religion, so they gave it a name.
They needed to identify a religion to overthrow because they were missionaries, not because they'd encountered a new religion they didn't have a name for. They saw what missionaries' religious training prepared them to expect: a bunch of ignorant savages practicing a demonic religion which would send them to hell if they weren't given the benefits of civilisation. Today's shamanic believers have just replaced demonic savages with noble savages: they're still projecting racist fantasies Later edit and, I might add, with equally good intentions. The missionaries save the savages. The neo-shamans honour them.
Also, you seem to be obsessed with the book "Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exercise in Critical Thinking" by Alice Beck Kehoe.
Gosh, your amazing shamanic powers extend to mind-reading? I think 'obsessed' is a little strong. I recommend it a lot because I think it's an accessible introduction to criticism of the ideology of shamanism. I first recommended it to you at least three years ago.
I'm wondering if you have ever read any of her other books as well? For example, perhaps, "The Ghost Dance: Ethnohistory and Revitalization". It's a fascinating book.
I'm sure. Tell you what, show me how it's relevant to this topic and I'll read it, if you promise to read 'Shamans and Religion'.
One other thing, Mr. McEwan, that puzzles me. You list on your recommended books
The Soul of Shamanism: Western Fantasies, Imaginal Realities
It's not unknown for people to recommend books they don't wholly agree with: perhaps you'd be less puzzled if you relied less on Amazon reviews and more on reading the books in question. I'm out of sympathy with Noel's Jungianism and obviously disagree that a 'genuine Western shamanism' is possible, which is what he seems to be getting at. I recommended his book for its critical look at Castaneda and Harner.
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Ganieda,
I don't understand what Barnaby is saying that you don't get.
He is pointing out to you the truth yet you refuse to accept. Go ask the Navaho how many died in slavery in the name of the church, it goes on and on. The black robes came here for the main purpose of imposing their belief system on our people.
If most NDN's don't accept shaman belief, doesn't that tell you something? There is a reason why they don't.
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I would like to share a perspective with you here. ? As one who has a deep sense of spirituality but no religion, whenever I'm asked, "what is your religion?" I answer "There is no name for it." ? Of course I get puzzled looks. ? I have been asked not to use the terms "Shaman" or "Shamanism" here and from my point of view it is just a matter of semantics. ? I have no idea what to call the belief system of any indigenous peoples from any part of the world when it is not mainstream religion. ? I have read that Native Americans, for example, do not practice religions but practice rituals associated with deep spiritual meaning. ? Again, from my perspective, those portions of spiritual rituals associated with healing can be best understood by and articulated by me by referring to them as shamanic practices. ? Regardless of the names associated, it is known that most cultures have healing practices thousands of years old that would, today, not be considered mainstream medicine. ? I do think you do yourselves a disservice here by focusing on terminology and not on the crux of the problem. ?
That being said let me share some additional thoughts with you. ? I have taken into account everything addressed to me here and much more. ? I can fully sympathize with you when people “Indianize??? themselves with made-up names and rituals. ? What little can be said in the way of imitation being flattery is far outweighed by the disrespect. ? Now I would like you to consider another possibility. ? Suppose these people completely removed the Native Peoples’ persona from what they do. ? Suppose they called themselves “ Spirit Healers??? or “Soul Fixers??? or any one of a number of made up names that had nothing to do with native peoples? ? Would they then be still the problem they are today? ? Now, as to why they might do this and why they might even have some use? ? The mind is a fantastic tool for healing the human body. ? Psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, and others utilize people’s minds to help them heal every day. ? Couple that with the spiritual force in everything and being able to help direct or magnify that force, and you have a very powerful tool for healing. ? Even the US Congress has recognized that alternative healing methods deserve research. ? To put it more basic, the “power of prayer.??? ? Prayer is not for any one culture. ? Anyone who learns how to focus the energies (spirits) in all things on healing has mastered a fantastic tool for the community of Man. ? All rituals, regardless of culture, are just methods for harnessing these energies. ? The challenge is to keep counterfeiters and charlatans away from these practices and make sure those that practice these arts have the knowledge and skill to prevent harm to others. ? This is one of the key dangers to many of the New Age practices, they offer up potential physical and psychological harm to the patient or follower. ? As an example, one of the teachings is a person can take charge of his own prosperity by being positive and expecting prosperity in his life. ? By praying for prosperity or conducting certain cleansing rituals they can become prosperous. ? Sounds great and harmless enough. ? Consider this; if a person is made to believe they are responsible for everything positive that happens to them, then they must surely think that they are responsible for everything bad that happens to them. ? If a person thinks he is responsible for everything bad that befalls him, then his self-esteem is shattered opening the person up to the onset of depression and a host of other issues. ?
So, in conclusion, I would like to say that spirituality is not the copyrighted property of any peoples. ? Some parts of spirituality, especially the healing parts, are universal and belong to mankind. ? Some rituals, on the other hand, are sacred to a people and have no business being on show for entertainment or misrepresented purposes.
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Again, from my perspective, those portions of spiritual rituals associated with healing can be best understood by and articulated by me by referring to them as shamanic practices.
Once again, I urge you to read some of those books. There's a whole other perspective there which I think might change your understanding significantly.
I do think you do yourselves a disservice here by focusing on terminology and not on the crux of the problem.
I've been focusing on the wrong and just plain racist thinking behind the terminology of 'shamanism'. From my point of view that is the crux of the problem. I don't see how I can make that clearer.
I can fully sympathize with you when people “Indianize??? themselves with made-up names and rituals [...] Suppose these people completely removed the Native Peoples’ persona from what they do.
There'd be nothing left of what they do, would there?
So, in conclusion, I would like to say that spirituality is not the copyrighted property of any peoples.
That's a very common objection of newagers to Indian protests: it misunderstands a lot, which many people here are better able to explain than me.
Some parts of spirituality, especially the healing parts, are universal and belong to mankind. Some rituals, on the other hand, are sacred to a people and have no business being on show for entertainment or misrepresented purposes.
This is contradictory: what about a specific people's healing rituals? Are you saying that they must be shared?
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This is contradictory: what about a specific people's healing rituals? Are you saying that they must be shared?
Absolutely not. I am of the opinion that rituals, healing or not, that are sacred to any peoples that they wish to remain private in their culture should be kept that way and not shared. What I was trying to say is there are many ways to achieve the same healing results without trespassing on a people's rituals.
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Ken,
I would like to address a couple things, I don't want to be long winded.
I believe people's prayers are heard from all religions, I believe the Creator looks within all our hearts.
One thing posted. "When asked about people calling themselves"Spirit Healers" or "Soul fixers". Would they still be a problem they are today?"
The answer to that is yes, to give an example, look at all the tv evangelist that claim to have the power to heal, they themselves on the most part live in luxury, have their own tv stations, and there are people out there watching them that live on fixed incomes sending these people money in hopes of a healing. These people are guilty of fraud in the Christian belief.
However in Native it is more than rituals, it is a culture rape. Much of it comes down to the actual wateringdown of traditions. This goes way beyond the rituals, it takes away the oral traditions that have survived for generations. These people in doing what they call Native beliefs, are stripping away from future generations our traditions.
I do believe there is a difference between spirituality and religion.
To give an example using Christian belief, Jesus was the son of God, however it was his apostles that formed the Christian churches. He was God in human form, that is spiritual not religion.
When my grandfather checked into the hospital they asked him what religion was he, he answered I am Native.
I have more of a belief in spirituality than religion, mainly based on my upbringing.
Just a suggestion if you feel you need to give a specific answer to what religion you are, how about non denominational?
Many people are accepting of that answer.
No spirituality is not owned by anyone, that is within, however the selling of a culture, or belief is not right regardless of what race, religion or culture.
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[Quote Ken:]So, in conclusion, I would like to say that spirituality is not the copyrighted property of any peoples.
That's a very common objection of newagers to Indian protests: it misunderstands a lot, which many people here are better able to explain than me.
I am not suggesting the specific spiritual rituals of a people are open to everyone, just that spirituality in general is open to everyone. Different cultures will, I'm sure, deal differently with their spirituality but the spirituality in some form is universal.
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One thing posted. "When asked about people calling themselves"Spirit Healers" or "Soul fixers". Would they still be a problem they are today?"
The answer to that is yes, to give an example, look at all the tv evangelist that claim to have the power to heal, they themselves on the most part live in luxury, have their own tv stations, and there are people out there watching them that live on fixed incomes sending these people money in hopes of a healing. These people are guilty of fraud in the Christian belief.
However in Native it is more than rituals, it is a culture rape. Much of it comes down to the actual wateringdown of traditions. This goes way beyond the rituals, it takes away the oral traditions that have survived for generations. These people in doing what they call Native beliefs, are stripping away from future generations our traditions.
Let me suggest (and I hope I'm not treading on anyone's rituals here) that these "new healers" instead of sweat lodges have people make little pointed hats out of tin foil and link them all together with yarn to create an "energy field" within the circle to search for spiritual awaking as a group! Do you feel that still crosses too close to the spirit of traditions?
Of course this isn't too far removed from some of the cults out there but that's another story!!
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Ken, My you are coming across a lot different than when this discussion began. Your little story about the tin hats is rediculous.
If you came on this site to get validation and hear us say, yes thats great, you need to go be a shaman than you have come to the wrong site. No one said you can not use the word shaman. If that is true please point it out.
Your mind is closed and set on going down a path of your choosing. We have simply tried to give you some guidance. Which appeared that is what you wanted. Many Natives here have done that. You are not listening. It seems our words mean nothing and we are wasting our time. Our words to you are like sand blown away by the wind.
I'll not waste my time anymore but I will pray to Creator for you. Remember all things come full circle.
Wado Thomas
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If you came on this site to get validation and hear us say, yes thats great, you need to go be a shaman than you have come to the wrong site. No one said you can not use the word shaman. If that is true please point it out.
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I believe that was you in the Hello thread?
Hi Ken,
I am very concerned about all the info you are sharing. My concern lies in the fact that there are so many, frauds and sleezy people who watch these boards waiting for someone who may be confused as to what is going on in there life and will trie to pull you into a dangerous situation.
BE VER CAUTIOUS MY FRIEND..
What walking-soft said is very wise. Helping others with healing can come in many forms. Anyone calling themselves a shaman is a phoney nor will you hear a Holy Man, Medicine man ever tell you they are one. You say you came up with the word shaman, please take that out of your vocabulary that in its self is the wrong path.
Wado Thomas
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Kola,
Not sure where are you going with this. What do you want, to have a spiritual debate over NDN rituals?
What the heck! Where did that tin hat and yarn come from? What does it really have to do with what was said? When it comes down to it, go do what you gotta do, it's that simple. Want to be a shaman, go for it, that's what I say. Hey guess we could use a few more out there.
You got some good advice here, xcept it isn't serving a purpose, cause you got your ears closed.
Take a break and I will go dust off my tin hat.
Hey the movie "Signs" was on last night, was it being shown in your part of the country?
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Ken, My you are coming across a lot different than when this discussion began. Your little story about the tin hats is rediculous.
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I agree the tin hat story was ridiculous, it was intended to be. Some of the New Age stuff is that far-fetched. What I was trying to decern was whether someone practicing non-medical healing methods not using any Native People rituals or methods is still considered an affront simply because it is non-medical. I really do pay attention and that is why I ask the questions.
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You already know the answer bro.
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Suppose they called themselves “ Spirit Healers??? or “Soul Fixers???
It doesn't matter what they call themselves. ? People here simply toss them in the "nuage" category and the bashing continues. ?
As to the use of "Shaman" and related words....
"Native people DO NOT use the label Shaman".. http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/index.htm
so, if Native people do not use the label Shaman, then why are they so upset with those who DO use? ?
Quote from "Dancing with a Ghost" ? pg. ? 116
Ojibway, [snip]...more recently, he has begun filling out that little box on forms that request information about one's religion with the initials B.A.P., for Born Again Pagan. ?
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If it says New Age or Shamanism on the cover, it's not a good source for learning about natives. ? http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/index.htm
No, it's not, I agree, but it COULD be a good book to learn about Shamanism. ?
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Suppose they called themselves “ Spirit Healers??? or “Soul Fixers???
It doesn't matter what they call themselves. ? People here simply toss them in the "nuage" category and the bashing continues. ?
As to the use of "Shaman" and related words....
"Native people DO NOT use the label Shaman".. http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/index.htm
so, if Native people do not use the label Shaman, then why are they so upset with those who DO use? ?
Quote from "Dancing with a Ghost" ? pg. ? 116
Ojibway, [snip]...more recently, he has begun filling out that little box on forms that request information about one's religion with the initials B.A.P., for Born Again Pagan. ?
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LOL sorry, can't figure out how to use the quotes. But My reason for objecting to the word Shaman is that most that I have seen use this as "Native American Shaman", or use a "Cherokee Shaman, "Lakota Shaman". It's a common error. Some Nations do not have one person Medicine Person that encompasses all. There can be different levels, and they have names. They are not named Shamans. frederica