NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: nemesis on June 10, 2010, 10:20:59 pm
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I have never attended a sweat lodge and my entire knowledge about them has been gained from this website but I am curious about them having recently watched a film about the No Mind festival in Sweden where they do have sweat lodges.
The sweat lodge they showed in the film was full of white people, many of whom were coughing and choking when the hot stones were placed inside.
I have enjoyed saunas and steam rooms so I know what it is like to be in a very hot place, but surely smoke inside a sweat lodge or sauna is not a good thing?
Is it usual for people to be coughing inside a sweat lodge?
The entire festival looked insane to be fair.
There were some very obvious frauds there including one man whose ridiculous demonstration of no touch martial arts (PMSL) left a woman injured and in pain when he crashed into her by accident.
Also lots footage of white people of chanting. Haya haya haya etc.
It was horrible.
In fact a few short clips might be interesting to post when I have a moment.
Genuine questions re the sweat lodge. Is it usually smoky inside?
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I never noticed any smoke, nor did I cough.
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No in our ceremonies there is no smoke that comes from people
not knowing what they are doing, we do not chant but sing song with words
in our language
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Thank you for the replies, I very much appreciate them.
My main concern is about safety.
A lot of the people attending seemed quite naive and overly trusting and I am concerned about these sweat lodges given what happened in Sedona.
I'm not sure when I will be able to do it but I'm sure I can rip a few minutes of the film for review purposes as I would be interested to hear what others think about how they are doing things.
There are some clips on youtube about the film, which is called Three Miles North of Molkom
here is a trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CSP3WR9duw
and here is a clip that is very interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NlhIuJ-y8k&feature=related
There are other short videos about the festival on youtube, a search for Ängsbacka + "no mind" will bring them up. I have not had a chance to check them out yet but there may be some clips of their sweat lodges there.
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There are lots of people who go to these sorts of festivals and lead fake sweats. Often they've only read books, or attended fake sweats with people who attended a real one, but were never actually trained in how to do it. Often they think that it's to their credit that they change the ceremony around, add new things, call it by a different name. They think if they alter it they will avoid people like us calling them pretendians. But they are ignorant about safety protocols (physical and spiritual) and so they endanger themselves with their bad rituals, as well as anyone naive enough to trust them.
And usually the non-Natives are totally ignorant about the training and authorization required to lead a ceremony. Nons show up at these things wearing pilfered regalia, spouting nonsense about "My many Native teachers" and the nons have no idea there's anything wrong. ("Wow. He learned from REAL INDIANS. Cool.")
Pretty much every Neopagan gathering has one of these going on. There are people who claim to be against exploitation of ceremony who attend these things, and just look the other way, because it feeds their egos and lines their pockets to be hired as a presenter.
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The movie looks hilarious. It's called Three Miles North of Molkom and appears to a be a fake comedic documentary along the lines of Spinal Tap, Fear of a Black Hat, etc.
The second clip you posted was great, I couldn't stop laughing. These appears to be a film lightly mocking the new agers and I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Didn't see the clip you mentioned earlier, but I'd guess the coughing et al was added in for comedic purposes.
Superdog
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I'm still watching the clips, but like listening to Wishbone Ash or Uriah Heap after watching Spinal Tap - and not being able to stop laughing - the satire is soooo close to the reality. I swear, I've met those people.
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The movie is hilarious in parts but it is a factual documentary and all the hippies are real people.
The weirdo instructor with the plummy English accent is a real person who teaches "inversion therapy" (hanging upside down), tantra (surprise surprise), shamanism (yawn) and a variety of fake martial arts.
The skeptical Aussie guy is a real star and his comments are really refreshing and often very funny, however half way through the documentary he hooks up with a hippy girl and unfortunately he turns into one of them.
Depending on your life experience and where you stand the film is either a heart warming account of how an uptight young man learns to become open to emotional and spiritual experiences, or a chilling account of how a mental healthy, normal, skeptical young man can be transformed into a deluded hippy over the course of a week, simply by peer pressure and constant expose to crazy and unreal experiences.
Personally I favour the latter description. ;)
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I'm sort of surprised the MTV people didn't come forward and state their Dudesons was a comedy on the 'wannabe'.. making fun of the wannabe and how stupid, misinformed, and gullible the wannbe is..
Personally, I can't watch much of either of these.. if this North to Molkom is supposed to be a comedy, it's not my sense of
humor.. nor was Spinal Tap for that matter..
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I work in a facility, I can't say much about it due to it being a government agency, but the native americans have a sweat lodge. I, too, have seen it get smoky and they cough, but because they put an herb (lobelia?) on the fire to help with one of their members with asthma. Also it gets extremely hot in there...over 130 degrees or more. It can't be very safe, and they always complain that I am a woman, so I cannot open up the flap, or tread on their ground to check on them.
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It can't be very safe,
Huh?
Sweats can be unsafe if they are being ran by somebody who doesn't know what they are doing and should not be running them in the first place. Most often the only times when they are unsafe is when they are being ran by some NON native who is just running them because they are an exploiter and do not know what they are doing.
As far as them not wanting you in there because you are a woman. There are religious beliefs behind that, and so they have a very good reason to not want you there.
I am sure you didn't mean to, but to me your post here almost comes across as disrespectful to the religious beliefs of others whom you don't understand.
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The prisons haven't always been good about making sure the "Native Americans" who lead sweats are Native, let alone trained and qualified to lead a sweat properly. There have even been problems where non-Natives have gotten in good with the prison administration, and led bizarre rituals they tell people are Native, while the actual Native people in the facility are left out in the cold with no rights (or rites).
I can't speak to the use of Lobelia in sweat ceremonies, or its effects when burned in quantity in that setting, but it's an herb to be careful with. It is possible to overdose on it in tea form, with cardiac symptoms resulting. I would be very careful about making sure someone using it knows what they are doing.
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I was not being disrespectful, nor was I generalizing about just any sweat lodge ritual, I was just simply offering an answer to the first post..."are sweat lodges supposed to be smoky."
I never claimed to be native, nor did it say you have to be native to post here.
I never claimed I knew everything either. I was simply offering guidance.
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Yes Kathryn, sadly, a few of them actually know what they are doing, but alot of them are paper indians, and just follow along with whoever is conducting the ceremony. Alot of it may be due to be able to smoke tobacco, since the facility has a smoke ban.
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I was not being disrespectful, nor was I generalizing about just any sweat lodge ritual, I was just simply offering an answer to the first post..."are sweat lodges supposed to be smoky."
I never claimed to be native, nor did it say you have to be native to post here.
I never claimed I knew everything either. I was simply offering guidance.
To answer your question, yes they can be smokey.
I apologize but I can't to feel that you are somebody who works for the prison industry and really does have issues with natives practicing their religion within the prison system when it comes to sweats and things. If I am wrong, please explain your position on that so that I may stand corrected.
The attitude that it is not a real religion to be given respect that Christianity gets, is in fact a problem with the prison system in many states. It has been well documented over the years that many NDN inmates have to fight very hard to be able to practice their sacred ways while incarcerated.
but alot of them are paper indians
The term paper indian usually means somebody who is "enrolled in their tribe" but are not practicing the tribal culture, has no ties to the people and so and and so forth.
So I don't know what you mean by "paper Indian" in this regards, but if a person was actually going to sweats and what not, I am not sure if the term paper Indian would be applicable since they are participating in native ways to some degree.
Perhaps prior to incarceration they were only "indian on paper," but how many times do we see Christians, Muslims etc turning to God while in prison, or even going through tough times in their life.
Furthermore in my life I have known NON NDN's who have participated in sweats in a good way, and two actually did get started in the prison system. I don't see an issue with that, especially if the medicine from sweats improved their lives and turned them around.
I am not trying to be rude or confrontational with you, so please do not take it that way. I just see you making the statements you have made and even one where you said you were "offering guidance" on the topic. If you do not sweat, and really don't know anything about them other then that which is superficial, then I do not see how you can give guidance when it is filled with criticism of things you don't seem to understand yourself.
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I am not offened, rattlebone, just explaining my side.
I have been to many pow wow, I have been in a womens sweat lodge and such, the clergy has also trained us on how they do it where I work. I am not christian. I do not know everything there is to know on native americans in general, I only know somewhat about blackfoot heritage, which I am a part of, but I don't have enough of to register. So no, I don't consider myself native, nor does anyone else, I just know more than others. So as to not sound new age, I have respect for native american traditions, but I also have compassion and feel concerned when guys are passing out from heat exhaustion because they don't know what they are doing, and then get mad because I am a woman and chose to check on them, because their lodge is too smoky, and too hot.
As to the paper indian thing, yes some are registered, but some aren't and join just to get a free tobacco puff now and then. They tend to argue alot amoung themselves.
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Clergy trained you on how they do sweat lodges?
That's just awful..
as for smoke, i've been when plants/herbs were used, it never got 'smokey' where people had to cough. that's all i know.
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Shortly after the Arizona deaths Arvol Looking Horse issue a statement regarding the qualifications needed to run a inipi or other Lakota ceremonies ie hanbleceya, completed wiwangyawacipi commitment, and tribal recognition as a spiritual person that had met these requirements. Theres really not that many qualified people out there. As for smokyness they may not have been brushing off the stones before bringing them in lodge.
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Statement by Chief Arvol Looking Horse, released October 14, 2009, reprinted with permission of author:
As Keeper of our Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle, I am concerned for the 2 deaths and illnesses of the many people that participated in a sweat lodge in Sedona, Arizona that brought our sacred rite under fire in the news. I would like to clarify that this lodge and many others, are not our ceremonial way of life, because of the way they are being conducted. My prayers go out for their families and loved ones for their loss.
Our ceremonies are about life and healing, from the time this ancient ceremonial rite was given to our people, never has death been a part of our inikag'a (life within) when conducted properly. Today the rite is interpreted as a sweat lodge, it is much more then that. So the term does not fit our real meaning of purification.
Inikag'a is the oldest ceremony brought to us by Wakan Tanka (Great Spirit). 19 generations ago, the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota Oyate (people), were given seven sacred rites of healing by a Spirit Woman Pte San Win (White Buffalo Calf Woman). She brought these rites along with our sacred C'anupa (pipe) to our People, when our ancestors were suffering from a difficult time. It was also brought for the future to help us for much more difficult times to come. They were brought to help us stay connected to who we are as a traditional cultural People. The values of conduct are very strict in any of these ceremonies, because we work with spirit. The way the Creator, Wakan Tanka told us; that if we stay humble and sincere, we will keep that connection with the inyan oyate (the stone people), who we call the Grandfathers, to be able to heal our selves and loved ones. We have a gift of prayer and healing and have to stay humble with our Unc'i Maka (Grandmother Earth) and with one another. The inikag'a is used in all of the seven sacred rites to prepare and finish the ceremonies, along with the sacred eagle feather. The feather represents the sacred knowledge of our ancestors.
Our First Nations People have to earn the right to pour the mini wic'oni (water of life) upon the inyan oyate (the stone people) in creating Inikag'a - by going on the vision quest for four years and four years Sundance. Then you are put through a ceremony to be painted - to recognize that you have now earned that right to take care of someone's life through purification. They should also be able to understand our sacred language, to be able to understand the messages from the Grandfathers, because they are ancient, they are our spirit ancestors. They walk and teach the values of our culture; in being humble, wise, caring and compassionate.
What has happened in the news with the make shift sauna called the sweat lodge is not our ceremonial way of life!
When you do ceremony - you can not have money on your mind. We deal with the pure sincere energy to create healing that comes from everyone in that circle of ceremony. The heart and mind must be connected. When you involve money, it changes the energy of healing. The person wants to get what they paid for; the Spirit Grandfathers will not be there, our way of life is now being exploited! You do more damage then good. No mention of monetary energy should exist in healing, not even with a can of love donations. When that energy exists, they will not even come. Only after the ceremony, between the person that is being healed and the Intercessor who has helped connect with the Great Spirit, the energy of money can be given out of appreciation. That exchange of energy is from the heart; it is private and does not involve the Grandfathers! Whatever gift of appreciation the person who received the help, can now give the Intercessor what ever they feel their healing is worth.
In our Prophesy of the White Buffalo Calf Woman, she told us that she would return and stand upon the earth when we are having a hard time. In 1994 this began to happen with the birth of the white buffalo, not only their nation, but many animal nations began to show their sacred color, which is white. She predicted that at this time there would be many changes upon Grandmother Earth. There would be things that we never experienced or heard of before; climate changes, earth changes, diseases, disrespect for life and one another would be shocking and there would be also many false prophets!
My Grandmother that passed the bundle to me said I would be the last Keeper if the Oyate (people) do not straighten up. The assaults upon Grandmother Earth are horrendous, the assaults toward one another was not in our culture, the assaults against our People (Oyate) have been termed as genocide, and now we are experiencing spiritual genocide!
Because of the problems that began to arise with our rebirth of being able to do our ceremonies in the open since the Freedom of Religion Act of 1978, our Elders began talking to me about the abuses they seen in our ceremonial way of life, which was once very strict. After many years of witnessing their warnings, we held a meeting to address this very issue of lack of protocol in our ceremonies. After reaching an agreement of addressing the misconduct of our ceremonies and reminding of the proper protocols, a statement was made in March 2003. Every effort was made to insure our way of life of who we are as traditional cultural People was made, because these ways are for our future and all life upon the Grandmother Earth (Mitakuye Oyasin All my relations), so that they may have good health. Because these atrocities are being mocked and practiced all over the world, there was even a film we made called Spirits for Sale.
The non-native people have a right to seek help from our First Nation Intercessors for good health and well-being, it is up to that Intercessor. That is a privilege for all People that we gift for being able to have good health and understand that their protocol is to have respect and appreciate what we have to share. The First Nations Intercessor has to earn that right to our ceremonial way of life in the ways I have explained.
At this time, I would like to ask all Nations upon Grandmother Earth to please respect our sacred ceremonial way of life and stop the exploitation of our Tunka Oyate (Spiritual Grandfathers).
In a Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no ending and no beginning!
Namah'u yo (hear my words),
Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White
Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle.
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This is good but not the one I was referring to. It was printed in the Teton Times a few months ago shortly after the Arizona disaster.
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i love this Proclamation as much as i hate the events that led up to it, i like especially His explanation how money sullies Ceremony.
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It breaks my heart that the situation arose that such a communication had to be written.
The irony is not lost on me that all those new age shameons who claim to have a deep spirchul affinity with native American people repeatedly ignore such messages and appear not to care at all about the hurt and damage their actions cause.
It seems to me that their actions are a kind of stalking, only that the stalker's victim is not an individual but a tribal group.
Just like some types of stalkers who, no matter how many times they hear the plea "but I don't want to be with you and we are not in a relationship" will say "oh but you do want to be with me and we are in a relationship, you are just in denial of it!"
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@critter
Truthfully it was more of a emailed pamphlet than any training. I agree, it is sad, and it is all they have.
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a'ho Sometime the door keeper lets a grandfather in the lodge without brushing it off after taking it out of the pit. some people use a cedar sprigs to brush them off? or maybe the lodge pit might have some wood debris ?