NAFPS Forum

Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: educatedindian on April 05, 2005, 11:25:01 pm

Title: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: educatedindian on April 05, 2005, 11:25:01 pm
I spoke with some people over at Freedom of Mind, and they're interested in the idea of a pagan version of NAFPS. I invited them over here.

For now it will likely start off with discussion of how to set up, what pitfalls to avoid. Those of you who are or were pagans, I think they'd be most interested in talking to you. Just hope you'll still make time to still be at NAFPS.

For now I'll also be glad to host their threads on abusive and exploitive people in the pagan community.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: educatedindian on April 07, 2005, 06:34:19 pm
I'm wondering how their efforts would face different problems for ours. For one thing there's far fewer equivalents of actual elders they could turn to.

For another the whole question of who's an imposter or not is more difficult.

Even sexual abuse and exploitation for money are more difficult issues since charging is seen as alright by most and sleeping with your teacher is sometimes common.

Any others? Any ideas on how they resolve these?
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: RobintheDruid on June 16, 2005, 11:47:08 am
Al,

I would love to be involved in the Celtic Pagan/Druid side of this, but I might, in the process hack a lot of Druids off.

One thing that I definitely feel is the unwillingness of those who call themselves 'Druids' to research Celtic history and mythology, and instead turn to presumed ideas which are really inventions of people like Iolo Morgannwg (17th c Welsh) who is known to have invented a lot of stuff. After him came William Blake, William Stukely, etc Victorian romanticism.

A lot of modern 'Druidry' is based on this rubbish, and even major orders, especially OBOD (Order of Bards Ovates and Druids) base their philosophy on it.

And as for what the Welsh and Irish think, Lord knows.

Robin
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Sheena McDonagh on August 15, 2005, 09:42:14 am
While I understand what you're saying Robin... I suggest that you find out more about OBOD before attacking it.

OBOD themselves admit that they are a revivalist druid order, and state precisely where their teachings come from. Not all of it is inspired by Iolo Morgannwg, Blake, et al. But some of it is received by each individuals journey with the world around them (inner and outer worlds). Some of it is indeed very Proto Masonic, but we have to remember that the people forming these groups at their outset were all freemasons. Look into the history of the Western Mystery Tradition, its all there. OBOD, in my experience have never claimed to know everything about druidry, nor have they claimed to be the only way into druidry.

Yes, I am a member, and proud of it.

We also have to remember that history is written by the victors. No one truly knows what the Celts did, if they indeed existed as a race at all. All we have is second hand accounts from Roman authors, who were somewhat biased.

Any mythology that does exist is to be read with an open mind and an open heart, regardless of how you come to it.

I would recommend anyone try speaking to OBOD before criticising them. They are part of the "Neo-Pagan revival".. and if the teachings of any group speak to you, then so be it. If they don't then don't do it.. Its down to personal choice.

I think you will find that there are many groups out there exploiting people, I doubt you could class OBOD as one of them. If its about the money.. OBOD is an organisation, they have booklets to produce, and people to pay to do it. I have found them very accomodating, and if you can't afford to do the course, then they can and do help people out.

Again, try looking into the organisation before criticising it.




Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: educatedindian on August 16, 2005, 03:15:56 pm
Sheena, first of all, welcome, and hope you'll be more than just a guest.
But whether you realize it or not, you did just illustrate some problems the pagan community faces. Equating criticism with "attacks" for example. I don't know whether pagans picked that technique up from Nuage or vice versa, but it is commonly used by Nuagers to shut down any kind of self critique within the ranks. The same with insisting people cannot criticize without having met the person or group under criticism. Native communities tend to say almost the opposite, that no one who has good character or tries to do the right thing should worry about criticism. In fact criticism exists for good reason, to keep people who would do wrong in line.

"No one truly knows what the Celts did, if they indeed existed as a race at all. All we have is second hand accounts from Roman authors, who were somewhat biased."

I'm a historian, admittedly not one specializing in that era or region. But there are ways to get around second hand and biased accounts and still get at the truth. Just admitting such sources are biased is a start. It's a pretty common technique in history to read court cases to get at the history of workers and peasants, even though the court docs all come from people in power. ?

"I think you will find that there are many groups out there exploiting people,"

This is what I'm interested in knowing about, and believe pagans should want to know too, rather than shutting down any self criticism before it can even start.

"If its about the money.."

At least partly. Has anyone researched to find out just what the original Celtic/Druid/whatever-label-we're-using attitude was towards cash payment was? Because I doubt that cash was even in much use at the time within those communities. More likely barter, and perhaps one way around the dilemna with so many pagans making or seeking to make a living from selling teachings might be a revival of using purely barter. Just a suggestion from an outsider...
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: debbieredbear on August 16, 2005, 07:26:45 pm
Well, I looked into the OBOD website.  I was unimpressed. A person can take some online courses and in three years, VOILA! You're a druid. Or a drood as my friend, Breandan, would say. I also have a problem having people talk about the "druid religion" which smacks of what I hear from nuagers about the "Indian religion." Ain't no such things. I read in historical volumes that druids were the learned class. They studied for mayb 20 years and had to memorize the laws, poetry and more. And then we get todays instant-gimme-it-now attitude and we have instant druids. Looked like just another version of Wicca to me.

Oh, and Robin, I have friends who are Welsh and some who are Irish. They think it is a lot of rubbish.  One Welsh friend was horrified when her daughter brought home a book on that stuff. My friend is not Christian so it wasn't  that it was pagan that upset her, it was that it was neo-pagan-make-it-up-as-you-go-along stuff.

And I agree with Al, that you can find evidence if you read closely. I have friends who are Gaelic scholars. They have found much information about ancient religious beliefs and practices by reading historical works. Particularly in Ireland where the Romans did not go. The one thing my friends have made me understand is that there is no "Celtic" religion, it is a cultural thing. Much like Indian religions and spirituality are culturally based. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Matt_Bowerman on August 17, 2005, 06:37:46 am
Being a novice student of Celtic history, and Celtic pagan history I can say that Druidism is a mystery that many have tried to recreate.  Debbie did have it right.  It is commonly agreed upon by historians that druid training took many years, and the three years and out lesson plan is made for the modern era, but then again perhaps the first three years is the building of the basics from which each member is expected to start from on their personal journey. Then again the world has changed much over time, and teaching techniques must change to meet the needs of the people. It is believed that most druids started their life off in a lengthy childhood training period, or apprenticeship. People have to earn a living today if they want to eat, and sleep with a roof over their head.  They did then as well, but being a druid today will not pay the bills unless you are charging money for ceremonies, and services.  I wish our pagan friends the best of luck regardless, for it is a noble endeavor to know ones culture.    

Having studied the Occult history of the west, I would suggest that what we now know as Wiccan, Hermetic Ceremonial/High Magik, and neo-pagan spiritualism all evolved out of the earlier studies started in the depths of time, perhaps even before the great city states of Greece. Most are familiar with names like Cornelius Agrippa, Nicolas Flamel, Levi, Barret, Dee, Matthers, Crowley, Gardner, etc.  Each generation developed studies upon the former generation’s practices, then took it further with what they could offer.  But to be blunt, any western pagan religion will be a recreated one to fit the needs of the people today.  Worshipers of Apollo can no longer offer sacrifice as they once did, nor can worshipers of Aries provide human sacrifices after battle.  However, one can burn a little incense, and put some food on the alter. I would be interested to see how modern pagans could form a society like this one without becoming culture specific.  Where would one begin? Most Wicca is not bound by any one culture, and High Magik is often done within Western systems with the outside Egyptian influence.  I think the real concern is exposing those who charge money for services when they are truly not knowledgeable. I believe this is the key concern.  I wish them luck, and good hunting.        
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Scott Brainard on August 17, 2005, 04:35:54 pm
My outsiders' $0.02:

I feel they'll have more early success in bearing down as a group upon those Pagan groups and individuals who are abusive, mix blatantly non-Pagan, non-Celtic influences in with their teachings and/or overcommercialize, rather than attempting from the start to argue out a monolithic viewpoint of "core" Paganism and defending it.  As time progresses and they get down to finer and finer details in their critiques, they'll have a good shot at eventually distilling a working description of "core" Paganism amenable to the Pagan majority.  Sort of a "grab the easy ducks first" scenario.

Just a suggestion...I know next to nothing of Pagan history. :)

--Scott B.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: AlaskaGrl on August 17, 2005, 08:13:17 pm
Quote
..I know next to nothing of Pagan history. :) quote]

They probably don't know either. ? Going by the books at the stores currently and the online crap, ie; what they are reading and have been doing and what I have seen. ? They are cobbling it together from everyone elses history and traditions, making a few up where none existed before, and then adding a fluffy factor x20. ? If some can make money they do, if some can abuse they do. ?  It's easy to figure out just go somewhere and talk to them, see what they know about their history (path) and see if they can explain to you what they are doing and what it is based on. ? Some can, some can't. ?

I was recently appaled at the number of white guys out there making flutes under the guise of being Indian. ? That takes alot of nerve... ? Almost as much as the US allowing China to import to us all the skeletons of their dead as curiosities for the book shelf. ? We don't even know who these people were or how they died. ? It's always something out there...

I hope the Pagan version of NAFPS does really well.
It is sorely needed.

Those were my two-cents.


Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: educatedindian on August 17, 2005, 08:48:57 pm
Linda, unfortunately the two pagans I spoke with at Freedom of Mind are a bit worried about any backlash from reporting or even discussing publicly abusers and exploiters.

How would you feel about trying to set up an anti exploiters' forum? Or hosting or initiating discussions here on the subject?  
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: AlaskaGrl on August 18, 2005, 12:14:06 am
Quote
Linda, unfortunately the two pagans I spoke with at Freedom of Mind are a bit worried about any backlash from reporting or even discussing publicly abusers and exploiters.

Oh yeah I know first hand those spirtchul people of light with their followers can be reeaal bad. Threatening one with bodily harm, law suits, hacking your sites and e-mail accounts...  spreading nasty rumors about ones personal life... ?  all the way to doing negative forms magic to a person (well, they usually can't do anything themselves so they get someone else to do it).  They are very good at hushing their detractors such is their hate of  questioning.   

Quote
How would you feel about trying to set up an anti exploiters' forum? Or hosting or initiating discussions here on the subject? ?

I am open to discuss implementing a version of the NAFPS dealing with abusers in the Pagan - and I use that term broadly, since it covers a wide audience of "paths" community with the Freedom of Mind people and anyone else interested in this problem of abuse. ?

On the activism side of things some here know I have worked off and on with contacting the US Cultural Heritage Center U.S. Dept of State, Customs, and U.S. Dept of Commerce on issues that I felt/feel were/are important. ? I network.. ? I nag.. I question.. ? Of the issues I have gone to the above with some were resolved, others quite large, I am still working on.

There is solidarity in voices. ? If you see something that is wrong Freedom of Mind - anyone else .. then make some noise. ? Don't let abuse that you may know of continue. ? If you get your facts together and check them, work with authorities and others, yell enough and write enough about issues that make your blood boil people will eventually listen and things will eventually turn around. ? I've seen it happen with things I have gone after. ?


 



Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Matt_Bowerman on August 19, 2005, 02:18:10 am
You go girlllllllllllllllllllll  No really, some policing is needed for sure.  

Matt
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: wyldwych on September 03, 2005, 11:03:36 am
Hi all,

I've recently joined here.. (yes its me that stirred the cauldron with my defence of OBOD).

I admit that all Western Mystery Tradition stems from one source. Not one of Native British Practices, but of Masonic source.

That is rather unfortunate, that the majority of information available comes via The Golden Dawn, Freemasonry, Rosecrucianism, etc.. with its emphasis on ritual magick.. But I guess if it works for you, then great.

The Pagan thing is a whole can of worms.. And yes, I defended OBOD, because I believe it to be one of the few organisations worth defending... I'm not into threatening people, or anything like that, but am interested in finding out the truth.

Basically today we live in a climate where people can call themselves whatever they like, and not actually put in much spiritual practice. Read a few books and call yourself a "witch", "druid",  "pagan". whatever....and some of those people are very dangerous, exploiting people, etc... Which is another reason organisations like OBOD, and the PF, were set up.. in order to help people find their way through the quagmire.

I don't say that these organisations have all the answers, as much as any path has all the answers (I don't believe that any path has all the answers, only some of them).

Each path, I believe, is about discovery of the self (call me a nuager, if you like, I really don't care), and discovering where you're going on that path.

Some people are led through the mist and come out the other side cynical and jaded, others come out as nuage love and lighters... my question is, as long as you're not harming anyone, does it really matter?

I understand the desire to keep native traditions native, but isn't that how we lost a lot of traditions anyway? Whether over here in the UK, or in America?

I understand that there is a preciousness about tradition, and upholding that tradition within one's own clan is of the upmost importance..  But, I ask, if there are so many frauds out there, who is redressing the balance?

I'm rambling and going off tangent, so I'll leave this post here..

I may be the only person in my corner, and I am willing to accept others points of view. I do not deny the past of the traditions I follow, but rather use them to create my own path in the world.

Thanks for listening.

Sheena
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: educatedindian on September 04, 2005, 08:54:30 pm
Hi wyldwych. From what you describe UAOD may have started from noble intentions, but at least in part it sure doesn't have them now. In that it reminds me of a site called Metista.com, run by a guy (now passed on) calling himself Bearwalker Wilson. Wilson made a lot of noble sounding declarations against selling ceremonies and calling for respect for Natives. And then he turned around and sold "his own" version of Native ceremonies.

Still, I'm glad you're here and willing to read and listen and hopefully pass on to others the information we gather in here on frauds. A few points:

"Some people are led through the mist and come out the other side cynical and jaded, others come out as nuage love and lighters... my question is, as long as you're not harming anyone, does it really matter?"

Yes, of course it matters. Truth matters.

"I understand the desire to keep native traditions native, but isn't that how we lost a lot of traditions anyway? Whether over here in the UK, or in America?"

No, where'd you get that idea? Just the opposite. The tribes which kept their traditions to themselves are the ones with the fewest problems with frauds.

"I understand that there is a preciousness about tradition, and upholding that tradition within one's own clan is of the upmost importance..  But, I ask, if there are so many frauds out there, who is redressing the balance?"

If I understand you correctly, the answer to that should be obvious. The "balance" as you put it comes from those who oppose the frauds.

"I do not deny the past of the traditions I follow, but rather use them to create my own path in the world."

Yeah, well...I'll leave that to the pagans here to address the rightness of doing that. But in Native traditions you don't just take a tradition and use it to make up what you then claim is "your own." Whether you realize it or not, that emphasis on individual faith is a product of Christian thinking. And that emphasis on "what feels right for me" is the influence of plain old advertising and marketing, not anything spiritual.

Incidentally, can you find out anything on the group mentioned in this thread?
http://newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=unsure;action=display;num=1125804827;start=0#1
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: wyldwych on September 05, 2005, 08:31:07 am
Hi Educated Indian.

Of course truth matters. I wasn't suggesting that it doesn't.

OK, being honest about the path I am currently on is to reflect that path to truth.

I have discovered, over the last few years that the path I thought I was on, wasn't the one I thought I was on.

My judgment was clouded by poor research on my part. I'll admit it.  Apart from Native traditions, which I'll openly admit I know little about, the vast majority of Pagan (or should I say "Neo-Pagan") beleifs stem from some kind of Proto-masonic melting pot.

I was thoroughly disappointed when I found that out, and continue to be disappointed when I find more and more untruths passed of as truth.

In understand, your reluctance to accept what I say as truth. I have been on a rather convoluted path... I'll admit that, and yes, I have adopted a "pick and mix" approach, if you will.. This has come from trying to find my own truth in a world full of untruths.

I do not have any ancestral beliefs, as I'm a Western European, part Irish, part everything... which I suppose says a lot really..

I suppose its no wonder I'm confused about my path..

Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: educatedindian on September 07, 2005, 02:28:32 pm
An alert put out by a pagan group:

http://www.paganlibrary.com/editorials/scam.php
SCAM***
Divine Circle of The Sacred Grove
ADF - Office of the Preceptor
PO Box 66311, Seattle, WA, USA 98166
THE FOLLOWING IS FOR PUBLICATION
To the Pagan Community:
In July of 1991, ADF sent out a Druid Alert about an organization called the Divine Circle of the Sacred Grove. ADF began investigating this group because they were using ADF letterhead, membership forms, advertising copy, and other materials with their names substituted for ours. Prior to raising any public issues, ADF's Preceptor, Domi O'Brien called the group and talked to their Scribe, Kal Mannis. Mr. Mannis told her that if she had questions, she could come to a public meeting on July 2nd, 1991, in Seattle, and ask them there.

Domi, Bwca, Erynn and members of 4 other Traditions and organizations attended their talk. We noted with increasing amazement their claims and their views of the interrelationship of Druidism and Wicca, and after they mentioned Isaac Bonewits, Domi challenged some of their statements, as the ADF Preceptor. The DCSG literature going back to 1988 was examined, along with other statements which have been made to us or others. Janette Laverna Garcia a/k/a Gordon a/k/a Copeland, born 2/9/1942, Houston TX,; Richard Norman Ian Garcia a/k/a Gordon a/k/a Copeland, born 8/12/1940, Prescott, AZ; Jerry Eugene Everett Wayne Reamer a/k/a Prophet, born 8/12/1948, Pottstown, PA; Kalman Mannis, Nancy Brown, Brenda Matarazzo, David Trippey, Donovan Cotton; Dr. Jay Tibbles, Mary Ernst, and others affiliated with their group were examined for legitimate mundane and magickal credentials. The only person whose credentials we were able to verify was Dr. Jay Tibbles.

Janette's claims, as given in her various pieces of literature, and as made to us, or to persons whose credentials we were able to verify, include: Hereditary Witch and Druid; Pipe Carrier for the Lumbee, the Sioux, the Cherokee, and the Chumash; member of the MotherGrove and Board of Directors of the ADF, as well as group marriage to the entire ADF Board of Directors; membership and 3rd Circle status in the British Circle of the Universal Bond; training by Ross Nichols, 3rd Degree Celtic and Egyptian Priestess; 3rd Degree Alexandrian Priestess, New York, 1973; 3rd Degree Gardnerian Priestess, New York, 1965; incorporation of her organization in 14 states; training by Rhuddlwm Gawr, and training by Grandmaster Eli (Barney Taylor, of the Druidic Craft of the Wise), marriage to Eli, as well as being both Eli's daughter and granddaughter. She has also claimed to be a registered nurse, a cosmetologist; a paralegal; a professional writer of romance novels, and a Vietnam Veteran. Ms. Copeland (?) claims that she has 10,000 people on her mailing list, groves all over the United States, and that she was born in London during the Blitz, although she has also claimed that she was born in Houston TX. Ms Garcia (?) claims that her father, a U.S. Army Major on Eisenhower's staff during WW II (not, by the way, Grandmaster Eli), and her mother, a nurse now resident in Atlanta, were both members of the Circle of the Universal Bond. She claims that she was raised by a Cherokee grandfather. She claims to have been teaching Wicca, which she says is a simplified version of Druidism for the masses, since 1954, when she was 12 years old.

Ms Gordon(?) took Lady Sabrina's course from Our Lady of Enchantment in 1987 and 1988, giving totally different information about herself then she gives now. According to Lady Sabrina, Janette has been selling Sabrina's courses as her own ever since. We have examined lessons from Janette's and Sabrina's courses, and they are indeed substantially identical, except that Sabrina can spell.

Janette joined ADF in 1987, giving yet another set of data about herself, claiming no leadership positions, newsletters, or other affiliations. A check of the material on her application shows it to be substantially false.

In checking Janette's claims, we contacted the Secretary of State, and Board of Nursing Registrations in the 14 states in which she claimed incorporation. Her organization is incorporated only in Washington and California. She is not listed as a registered nurse anywhere we checked. She and her group were offering BA's, MA's, and PhD's in Washington State until directed to cease and desist by the Higher Education Coordinating Board. They later obtained a religious exemption by saying that they were offering degrees only in Divinity and Theology. Former members of their organization state that most of their claims in their catalog as to available courses and faculty credentials are false.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: educatedindian on September 07, 2005, 02:29:03 pm
Pt 2

In examining their other claims we contacted over two hundred persons and groups in this country and abroad in an effort to authenticate their initiations and organizational affiliations.

No one we contacted verified any of the DCSG's claims. All stated that they had never trained or initiated any known officers or members of the DCSG. Most had never even heard of them. Further, former members of her organization have mentioned paying thousands of dollars for courses, and additional thousands paid out on "tithes" - 10% of their annual income to support the work of the Order of Melchizadek (demanded in the middle of their initiation or elevation rituals). We have also been contacted by Social Services, Education, Law Enforcement and other authorities for other information about DCSG, and/or its members.

ADF and some other Pagan groups and organizations are cooperating fully with these investigations, and have made it clear to the investigators that we do not regard these people as legitimate members of the Pagan community, since none of their alleged training and initiations can be verified, and may have been directly disproved. As Pagans, whatever our path, we can ill-afford to remain silent while groups knowingly steal and sell courses written by others, claiming training ties to the most senior and respected members of our community that they do not have, and engage in questionable behavior presenting themselves as our kin, elders, and representatives to the world at large.

Domi O'Brien            T. Bwca           Erynn Darkstar
DTG Priestess           Elder, NECTW      Greenleaf Coven
CWO Priestess                             Inis Glas
Preceptor/Vice ArchDruid, ADFBy: Domi O
To: Lewis Stead
Re: Details, please.
Lady Sabrina was initiated by Bob Moshier and Dorothy Trion in Tucson, Arizona in 1978, according to what she says. She was in Danville, California for a while, near San Francisco; and was in COG (I have not checked this); she then studied with Gavin and Yvonne in New Bern for 1 and a half years; then moved to Billerica, Mass; then to Hudson, NH; then Nashua, NH. I was in Epping, NH when a Gardnerian friend and fellow NH College administrator, Gerry Reilly, introduced me to Sabrina. Since I am Daughters of the Triple Goddess and Celtic Wiccan Order trained, Gerry's brand of witchcraft and Sabrina's struck me equally weird.

I talked to Gavin and Yvonne last week; they feel Sabrina has borrowed heavily from them but they don't have an issue with it and they don't consider their organization and hers to be connected. In 1987 Geraldine Gumm aka Gerri Garcia aka Queen Druid aka Laura Copeland aka Janette Gordon aka Janette Copeland aka Laverna Gordon aka Laverna Copeland aka Gerry Garcia aka Gerri Gunn aka Gerri Teah Garcia aka Jerry Leah Garcia took Sabrina's course; in winter of 1989 she began advertising a correspondence course in Wicca, which according to Sabrina is Sabrina's. I've looked at them; they are very much alike. The Frosts and Sabrina both teach non-mainstream Wicca and charged for Craft when no one was doing that. I have heard far more negative things about some far more mainstream figures; both the Frosts and Sabrina are very public and really seem to have nothing to hide. What they teach isn't my Craft, but I will defend their right to practice their version and teach it as they see fit. Or did you mean something else ? Domi of ADF

By: Domi O
To: Corwynt
Re: ADF letter
Indeed it is from us. Since then, we have gotten "Janette's" arrest and conviction records from New Mexico and word from a usually reliable source that her real name may be Geraldine Gumm, and real date of birth may be 2-9-40. I am also informed by a law enforcement source that she has other records in several states. These range from child neglect to unlawful touching of dead bodies to kidnapping.

Her group was investigated in 1975 in Arizona for dead bodies and missing persons, moved a bit over a hundred miles as the crow flies, and she and her husband were arrested in New Mexico in 1978. The children involved were returned to their parents, two being kept in social service custody while it was determined to whom they belonged, and two members of the group were "deprogrammed" by Ted Patrick. She was calling herself "Queen Druid" then and initiating folks as "WI" or "witch one". I have a lovely pile of court papers and newspaper clippings I will gladly share with anyone who'd like to send me $4 for photocopying and postage...
Domi O'Brien
Box 66311
Seattle, WA 98166
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on November 22, 2005, 02:56:02 am
Stay away from anything written by Douglas Monroe "21 Lessons of Merlin",   D.J.Conway "By Oak, Ash, & Thorn", or Edain McCoy "Witta"


[One reviewer of this (Douglas Monroe) author: "I keep seeing references to a supposed medieval Welsh manuscript called The Book of Pheryllt. I have a suspicion that most, if not all of these references, are inspired by the truly wretched and quite idiotic book The 21 Lessons of Merlyn by Douglas Monroe. Monroe, who has neither Irish nor Welsh, refers to The Book of Pheryllt as a sixteenth century manuscript of arcane Welsh mystical learning.
"Drivel" is the most polite way I can refer to Monroe's claims. There is no such sixteenth century manuscript. Monroe's recent "sequel" to 21 Lessons of Merlyn, The Lost Books of Merlyn is an obvious fake from the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, full of egregious factual errors and offensive sexist and racist assumptions." ]


Recommended scholars to read: Peter Berrisford Ellis, Stuart Piggott,  Mircea Eliade, Patrick K Ford, ....

a pretty good list can be found at:
http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/bibs/celtkit.html
Title: Mircea Eliade: bad scholarship+fascist past=avoid
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on November 23, 2005, 06:53:30 pm
Quote
Recommended scholars to read: [...] Mircea Eliade, [...]

You have got to be joking. Eliade was an abysmal scholar and, before WWII, an enthusiastic fascist.

Edmund R. Leach, in 'Sermons by a Man on a Ladder' (New York Review of Books, Oct 20, 1966), charges Eliade with

Quote
...bad history—there has never been a radical discordance between Christian cosmology and cyclical notions of time; bad ethnography—it is not true that the cosmologies of "archaic" man always incorporate notions of cyclical time; bad method—comparative ethnography in the style which Eliade employs, can only illustrate by example, it can never properly be used as a basis for generalization; bad psychology—Eliade takes for granted the Lévy-Bruhl fashions of his youth which assumed that ethnographic evidence reflects a pre-logical archaic mentality radically different from that of rational thought (Lévy- Bruhl himself abandoned this theory in his later years); confusion of terms—the most interesting parts of Eliade's writings become fogged by his failure to distinguish clearly between the content of a set of symbols and its structure.

He goes on:

Quote
A man who publishes a dozen books within fifteen years and appends over a thousand references to at least three of them is probably learned in only a rather superficial sense, but Eliade's long book lists at least indicate what he has not read and in some cases this test is quite shattering. Eliade's basic thesis depends on the recognition that the metaphysical polarity represented by our words sacred and profane is tied up with an awareness of temporal alternation [...] Now this theme has received great attention from professional anthropologists for many years but all modern [i.e. mid sixties] work is heavily indebted to three classic sources: Mauss (1960), Hertz (1907), Van Gennep (1909), any one of which is far more illuminating than the whole corpus of Eliade's writings put together. But the odd thing is that Eliade ignores them. There are references to Van Gennep's work in the footnotes (but not in the text) of several works published since 1958; the other two items are not mentioned at all. Whatever may be the explanation for this silence it can do Eliade no credit. I am not suggesting that his erudition is wholly fake but that his knowledge of the history of anthropology must be abysmal. This is not a subject which can be understood by reading predigested textbooks and scrabbling through an index to find an appropriate reference. The latest theoretical doctrine of which Eliade shows any understanding is that of the Vienna school of diffusionist culture-history which flourished between 1905 and 1935; functionalism has passed him by and there is no indication that he has ever heard of Lévi-Strauss, who has often concerned himself closely with the kinds of fact which Eliade makes central to his analysis.

Further:

Quote
Eliade is a library scholar. What matters for him is that everything he says should be based on what someone else has put in a book. The printed word is authority enough and since there are enough oddities around to write almost everything, it is always quite easy to find "authoritative support" for one's own opinions. This again was Frazer's procedure. If Eliade writes:

    Recent researches have clearly brought out the "shamanic" elements in the religion of the paleolithic hunters. Horst Kirchner has interpreted the celebrated relief at Lascaux as a representation of a shamanic trance. [Shamanism, p. 503]

most readers will believe him simply because it fits the argument. They will be quite unimpressed by the pedant's comment that there are in fact no "reliefs" at Lascaux and that no one has the slightest idea why the paintings were made.


Eliade never went near any 'shamanic' peoples. There's no record of him visiting an Indian reservation or talking to Indians living in Chicago when he was teaching there: he preferred instead to shoe-horn second-hand references into his pre-existing framework of ideas. I won't even get onto his belief that there could be no African shamans or his belittling of female ritualists.

I'm going to recommend, again, that you read Alice Beck Kehoe's Shamans and Religion (http://www.atleest.com/en-us/p_8093.html)[/url].

In interwar Romania, Eliade was a leading intellectual supporter of the violently antisemitic League of the Archangel Michael, Romania's principal fascist movement, also known as the Romanian Iron Guard. Here's Eliade talking about Jewish immigration:

Quote
Only a pro-German government can save us [...] What is happening on the frontier with Bukovina is a scandal, because new waves of Jews are flooding into the country. Rather than a Romania again invaded by kikes, it would be better to have a German protectorate.

Mihail Sebastian, Journal 1935-1944: The Fascist Years. Ivan R. Dee, 2000. ISBN 1-56663-326-5 (http://www.ivanrdee.com/Catalog/singlebook.shtml?command=Search&db=%5EDB/IRD/CATALOG.db&eqSKUdata=1566633265)[/url] p. 238.

Edited to improve accuracy:
Eliade never apologised or showed remorse for being part of a movement which murdered between 280,000 and 380,000 Jews as well as over 11,000 Roma (http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041111-023944-6848r.htm).
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: gus on February 15, 2006, 12:48:12 pm
Hi Robin,
I was accused of being you on the celtic connections website !
check out the "im fed up of talikng to these people " in the fraud forum.
Anyway OBOD has a lot of dodgy stuff including misapropriation of native culture ( I inadvertantly started a bit of a storm there cos of that), and then theres the money thing..... but you do get some good peeps., language resources etc
my favourite quote from one member was was :

"As a Welsh woman who lives in Wales and who speaks Welsh I find it amusing that this group all live in America.

I haven't heard of them before, nor have I ever heard the tradition that they lay claim to.

Sounds more like a "secrect society" play at being Welsh."

(=;
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Sue on January 18, 2007, 08:52:52 pm
I'm wondering how their efforts would face different problems for ours. For one thing there's far fewer equivalents of actual elders they could turn to.

For another the whole question of who's an imposter or not is more difficult.

Even sexual abuse and exploitation for money are more difficult issues since charging is seen as alright by most and sleeping with your teacher is sometimes common.


As a new member and a Pagan I am absolutely appalled that someone calling themselves Educatedindian could get it so wrong. Who on earth told you that sleeping with our Pagan teachers is sometimes common? And how facetious to claime that fare fewer equivalents of elders
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on January 23, 2007, 12:28:22 am
Who on earth told you that sleeping with our Pagan teachers is sometimes common?

This is common knowledge. Due to the sexual predilections of its inventor, Gerald Gardner, many "Traditional" Wiccan ceremonies involve ritual nudity, blindfolding, binding, flagellation and sexual intercourse, do they not?

In the 'scene', if not outside, it is common knowledge that sexual predators abound (http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/wyrdsex.htm) (this page probably not suitable for work):
Quote
...these days anyone approaching the occult has to be very careful of just who they trust and a young woman or a pretty boy needs to "trust no one" because the occult scene is full of people with "problem" sexualities and who have strange sexual desires only too happy to take advantage of the initial enthusiasm to learn in order to trap them into a sexual involvement.
(My emphasis)

Quote
And how facetious to claime that fare fewer equivalents of elders

"The Old Religion" is a bit younger than Elvis would be if he was still with us. Gardner, as well as being a perv, lied about his academic and masonic qualifications. He invented or plagiarised most of the Wiccan liturgy. Many pagans including leaders and 'scholars' have an equally cavalier attitude to reality when they can tear themselves away from inter-group rivalries and getting into the new initiate's knickers. It shouldn't be surprising if non-pagans take the view that neo-pagan candidates for elder status are as rare as unicorns.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: 4Candles on January 24, 2007, 11:56:28 am
Have just read this posting with interest as I am Pagan.

This is common knowledge. Due to the sexual predilections of its inventor, Gerald Gardner, many "Traditional" Wiccan ceremonies involve ritual nudity, blindfolding, binding, flagellation and sexual intercourse, do they not?

I think there is some confusion here, possibly because the British use of the word Wicca and Paganism is sometimes very different from that in the US.

Sometimes when people first come to Paganism, especially Witches, they use the much vaunted term Wicca because it makes it sound so much less like something evil. The word Witch is a very old word meaning wise woman, the village elder who knew the secret of healing with herbs etc. The idea of an old wizzened crone was invented when Christianity came in an effort to inject some evil into the actions of the healers and wise people. It was important for the new religion of Christianity to have the people go to the church for healing as it is written that healing only comes through Jesus Christ and not from some old woman with a bunch of herbs. The church became very good at healing and monks began apothercary gardens and so many went to them for help too.

In fact you are quite correct when you say Wicca is a very recent invention. the word Wicca is however, commonly used in the US to denote all Paganism. We tend to be more specific in the UK and only use the name Wicca to determine a small group of followers of Gardner.

It would be totally wrong to label all UK Pagans as Wiccan. We follow many paths and only a small minority are actually followers of Gardner and they say to be truly Wiccan you have to be initiated into a hereditary coven that traces its beginnings back to Gardner himself.

Now whether the sex thing goes on in these very few groups is a matter for conjecture. I think it may well have gone on in the past but we are told it happens only these days between Wiccan partners or man and wife.

It would be very wrong and extremely insulting to the average Pagan to be told that they are involved in any sexually abusive regime. Just as insulting as it would be to you if we said that your culture encouraged and embraced this sort of thing which I am sure it doesn't.

The Pagan Federation is involved with all paths and you will find that real Wiccans, those who are associated with Gardner are very few and far between. Please do not lump us all together - we often have  very different views and paths.

The average Pagan is someone who honours the earth and the positive energy that surrounds us all. We celebrate the changing seasons and life itself, just as our forebears did for thousands of years. Many of us are in the caring professions and most of us are quite spiritual in our own way.

We care about things like global warming, a larger than average percent of pagans are vegetarian and most of us are into recycling in a big way. A lot of us study the use of herbs in medicine, just as all our ancesters did whatever our country.

Paganism is the belief system of many thousands of years before Christianity came to our shores. It has nothing to do with Gerald Gardner; that came much later and is a new kid on the block. We call Paganism the old religion or the old ways because that is what it is. It is certainly much older than Elvis!


Bright blessings to you all  :)

Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: educatedindian on January 24, 2007, 03:51:37 pm
4candles, many of our white members are pagan or been involved with/interested in paganism at some point. I believe one of our members is even from a family tradition of witches. My experience has been that while there are some pagans who take part in exploitation either from not knowing any better or just not caring about anyone but themselves, many others are also quite supportive of Natives efforts vs exploiters.

In answer to Sue's complaints, who seems to have left, what I said earlier was what I've heard repeatedly from pagans over the years, that abusive people seem to be extremely common within pagan communities. The reasons why have been discussed quite a bit at NAFPS, as a search would show.

Of course this doesn't mean all or even most pagans are bad people. Many pagans are themselves victims and survivors. If you go back to the start of the thread, you'll see the original post was hoping that at some point people within the pagan community would start to address the abuses that are so widespread, financial, emotional, physical, sexual. It's not something I as an outsider can do much more than encourage, but it's something I hope finally (FINALLY) happens, as I've been hoping to see it happen for it for years. After all, many of these same exploiters within paganism also abuse Native traditions.

The other debate about how much of modern paganism is recently invented or even just wishful thinking has also been talked about quite a bit in NAFPS, as a search would show.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: 4Candles on January 24, 2007, 07:55:46 pm
You said

'I've heard repeatedly from pagans over the years, that abusive people seem to be extremely common within pagan communities. '

'I am sorry you have had this experience and amazed that Pagans would come to you with the problem as we have a superb network of information and help sources worldwide. Help would always be available to them I think but I have never come across anyone needing help. I have been a Pagan for most of my 58 years and I have lived all over the UK. I have run groups and been a guest at a lot of others and have only ever found a lot of happy people. I have never heard of any abuse at all and am certain it is not 'extremely common within pagan communities.

With respect, you have to be in these communities to know. I would run a mile if I got a whiff of anything like this going on. Currently I run a 50 strong group and amongst them are many professional people including police officers, doctors, teachers etc. many of them belong to other groups too and there is no way they would be involved in anything abusive - quite the reverse. It most definitely not extremely common, in fact is so rare I have never heard of it! To say it is extremely common is misrepresenting a very large number of honest upright citizens and totally misleading.

You also said
'If you go back to the start of the thread, you'll see the original post was hoping that at some point people within the pagan community would start to address the abuses that are so widespread, financial, emotional, physical, sexual.'

Again, I would take issue with your description that it is widespread - it is unheard of here in the UK. Please don't think I am being argumentative with you, maybe it is different in your part of the world but in the UK it just isn't happening. If it was, I am sure the Pagan Federation would be addressing it immediately and so far, they haven't found the need to set up any kind of watchdog.

I suppose that I am deeply concerned with the fact that you are publicly saying abuse in the Pagan community is widespread when it isn't even there! I guess you will get exploiters in any walk of life but your comments are a bit like me saying it's common knowledge that Native Americans are sexual abusers and charge money for healing etc. The truth is, a handful of frauds probably do but that doesn't mean it is so commonplace that your people just accept it as normal. You fight it just the way we Pagans would if we came across it!

To set the record straight, your comment that [b] 'that abusive people seem to be extremely common within pagan communities.' [/b]is just not correct. It's rare and I have never seen it.

I thought I posted details of what the official statement from the Pagan Federation says in answer to who and what we are. I guess it didn't go through  so I will post it again when I have time. It is right that people know the truth about us and that we hate charlatans as much as you do.

On a last note, if anyone out there doubts my word I suggest they go on the world's biggest forum for Pagans. You will find it on www.witchcraft.org and there you can read all the forums. It is mostly youngsters who post (well the under 30's seem very young to me!) but you can see that none of them are claiming abuse. Although the owners of the website are in the Uk, the members of the site are from all over the world and there are tens of thousands of them registered as users. There is no forum dedicated to the abused because there is no need for one.

Bright blessings  :)



Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on January 24, 2007, 08:28:28 pm
Have just read this posting with interest as I am Pagan.

I've removed the 1700-word post pasted from some pagan FAQ page. If you must patronise us, a link would do. If you're not sure how to put links in your posts, look at the 'Help' pages available from the navigation bar near the top of each page. There is a 'Test' board (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?board=11.0) where you can experiment without annoying the admins.

Quote
I think there is some confusion here...We tend to be more specific in the UK and only use the name Wicca to determine a small group of followers of Gardner.

No, there is no confusion. I'm British, and Wicca is used here in a much wider sense than that in my experience, including members of other 'traditions', 'solitaries', and so on. If you've been as intimately involved in neo-paganism as you say, you know this.

Quote
It would be very wrong and extremely insulting to the average Pagan to be told that they are involved in any sexually abusive regime.

Quote
With respect, you have to be in these communities to know.

Nobody said anything about a regime. It's an unpleasant fact that sexual predators will be attracted to a subculture which says that one of the members' benefits is the enjoyment of guilt-free sex; the more charismatic ones will thrive in such an environment. The whitedragon.co.uk page I quoted from above is written by someone 'in these communities'. It's one of the very few signs I've seen of neo-pagans brave enough to air that dirty little secret. Just to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with enjoying sex. It's enabling abusers by denying there's a problem that I object to. Isn't there a saying that starts "An' it harm none..."? By the way the "Wiccan Rede" is derived from the occultist Aleister Crowley's dictum "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". Gardner just dressed it in hey-nonny-nonnyisms. Crowley in turn stole that from Rabelais' novel Gargantua and Pantagruel.

Quote
Paganism is the belief system of many thousands of years before Christianity came to our shores. It has nothing to do with Gerald Gardner...

That idea comes directly from Gardner's novel High Magic's Aid! Again, someone of your experience should know this. The anthropologist Margaret Murray first wrote about it in her long-discredited book The Witch Cult in Western Europe but it was Gardner's plagiarism which made it possible for you to believe it. All of contemporary neo-paganism is derived from the religion invented in the late 40s-early 50s by him and his fellow pioneers. Ronald Hutton's book The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft (http://pentaclepress.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=0-19-285449-6) is very good on sources of neo-pagan myths. Despite what you may have heard, Hutton bends over backwards to be fair to his subject.

Quote
We call Paganism the old religion or the old ways because that is what it is.

Oh, right. So how often does your group throw its valuables into bodies of water? When practising human sacrifice, do you prefer strangling, burning or drowning? Last time you were entertaining visitors, did you proudly show off the preserved heads of your slain enemies? These are all things that pre-Christian Britons really did, as opposed to what some modern people like to imagine.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: 4Candles on January 24, 2007, 09:45:35 pm
I have decided not to dignify your ramblings with a lengthy reply. I don't know why you feel the need to be unpleasant to me and to all Pagans but perhaps in time you will lose the hatred and anger you feel. It's like a cancer inside you and it will hurt you long before it can affect others. Why the chip on your shoulder? If you really are British you will know we have a law against incitement of hatred against people of a particular belief system. I have now passed your details on to the relevant authorities. Amazingly it has been easy to find out a lot about you even though you keep all your details well hidden on your profile. I bet you remove this posting just in case people see you exposed as the biggest fraud of all. You're not actually British are you???? If you were a native Brit you would know how to conduct yourself. Don't bother replying to me as I am just another Pagan who has decided to leave rather than be subjected to mindless bullying. I shall not bother coming back as it didn't really live up to expectations and intelligent conversation is barred apparently. Just go on with your lies if you like, only dimwits would take you seriously, especially the bit about normal guilt free sex with your partner which is probably why you removed my post. You know, the bit which said we do not have sex with all and sundry. You want everyone to believe otherwise don't you. It seems to fit in with your dirty mind. I detect a bit of a problem there.............................
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: debbieredbear on January 24, 2007, 11:25:49 pm
Oh geez, Barnaby. Are you shaking in your shoes?  ;D
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on January 24, 2007, 11:52:26 pm
I have decided not to dignify your ramblings with a lengthy reply.

You haven't dignified yourself much with two paragraphs of ad hominem attacks.

Quote
If you really are British you will know we have a law against incitement of hatred against people of a particular belief system. I have now passed your details on to the relevant authorities.

Wouldn't it be simpler to cast a spell on me than deal with all that paperwork?

Quote
Amazingly it has been easy to find out a lot about you even though you keep all your details well hidden on your profile.

Is this supposed to sound so stalkerish? I'm really not concerned if you find out a lot about me but why would you want to? If the cops or whoever are to investigate then they can find out what they need to know themselves.

Quote
I bet you remove this posting just in case people see you exposed as the biggest fraud of all.

You're 58 years old for goodness' sake! Didn't you feel just a bit childish when you typed that?

Quote
I am just another Pagan who has decided to leave rather than be subjected to mindless bullying. I shall not bother coming back as it didn't really live up to expectations and intelligent conversation is barred apparently. Just go on with your lies if you like, only dimwits would take you seriously, especially the bit about normal guilt free sex with your partner which is probably why you removed my post. You know, the bit which said we do not have sex with all and sundry. You want everyone to believe otherwise don't you. It seems to fit in with your dirty mind. I detect a bit of a problem there.............................

This makes no sense whatsoever. It's not our job to fulfil your expectations, and pointing out your ignorance of the history of your own religion is not bullying. Intelligent conversation is not barred: give it a try. Pasting in long, marginally-relevant articles without showing where they come from is frowned upon, as it is on most message boards. I'm clearly not trying to make people think that all neo-pagans are promiscuous or immoral; I'm trying to draw attention to a problem that it seems some people would rather we shut up about.

You are welcome to post a link to that FAQ and to show how it's relevant to the problem of fraud, charlatanry and sexual predation in neo-pagan communities. You are welcome to post evidence which disproves anything I've written here. You are not welcome to continue making a fool of yourself.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: educatedindian on January 25, 2007, 04:20:43 pm
"we have a law against incitement of hatred against people of a particular belief system."

So if someone reports a Catholic priest abusing kids, he hates all Catholics? By your bizarre view, yes.

I'm not too impressed by that law. It didn't stop the airing of a racist anti Native commercial in Britain when we filed complaints against it.

4candle's long and comical denials remind me of jokes about the Italian Anti Defamation League back in the 70s. Whenever anyone talked about mafia corruption and crime, they'd come on TV saying "There ain't no such thing." Wasn't too credible, since their leaders WERE mafiosos. I'll take the word of dozens of pagans over one Pagan Fed leader either trying to cover her own tail, or having her head in the sand.

The language 4C uses brings up something interesting. It's almost word for word the usual Nuagespeak, all the usual condescending pop psychology diagnosis, attacks disguised as sympathetic advice, the martyr complex, etc. Since Wicca predates Nuage by almost 20 years, were Wiccans talking like this before Nuage?
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: AlaskaGrl on January 25, 2007, 04:45:04 pm
Ya did good Barnaby. 

Some people can't take quiet line by line debate or conversation like this (we all know this) they prefer to label such discussion as "attacks"  and then sometimes leave with the door swinging after having checked you out (the stalking referance).  The part about the spell really cracked me up....   You know I totally agree with you, I have certainly done my share of rants.  Not meaning to slight these things that they don't work or exist... heh they do and are real but generally not employed by the common garden variety Wannabe whatever who gets it from a book..  Good thing too.  I have found quite a few Pagans don't believe they have a personal power for such things or that they can tap into it -good thing again.  One of the shortfalls, too many believe they can be a Witch from a book. 

I have been here forever in my state people know me and either like me or hate me, my views on mix and match spirituality and frauds and most know I am a Witch or have figured it out by now.  It's not been easy, not following other lemmings, on occasion i've been embroiled in my share of knock down verbal in the face and online drag outs and the not forgotten Witch wars/Spiritual wars that can and have erupted around and on other Witches I know who along with me in tow, took very unpopular views regarding newage frauds which is how I wound up here way back when, when this was in a Yahoo Group.  -Pagans actually hired some Voodoo people to get even through voodoo but it didn't work... backfired, it all backfired not because the Voodoo people were not necesarilly good or diligent...  Pagans hiring someone else to do work ... What does that say about "ability" we were left wondering.... scary we are reduced to this.  This went on for several *years* people, this, "i'll get you mentality" this "drop dead" mentality because you won't follow suite or you question too much of the "leaders" It's another illustration to what some will go through to remove people from the scene.   Needless to say not all Witches practise the ridiculous "harm none" If you smack some of us, you will be smacked back. 

What do I want to say.... I guess I want to say to the dis-believing Pagans and others that have not had crap happen to them that not all of these types of people the like minded "apearing" people you might want to hang out with around a fire or go drumming with as they goddess worship or maybe jump in a circle with to do whatever (pls don't circle with just anyone you don't know) are all so simple appearing.. Some are actually predators out to abuse others or cause other forms of havoc within their sometimes closed communities that they sometimes create for the control of said community.  They want to get their hooks into it for whatever reason, sometimes political sometimes just for the control aspect of the other lemmings.. and sometimes into you.  Set themselves up as the high and mighty poobah not to be  questioned...   

Havoc if you question them not limited to: Threatening bodily harm, legal threats or other unseen means to try to destroy you.  Believe me I say this Candle only because I have experienced and seen it happen to others and you can read about similar tactics happening to others here at this site regarding Newagefrauds.  The anonymous letters.. the inquiries on this person and that person are they real or not?  ALL VALID QUESTIONS..  It's why this site exists to warn and educate.  If it was a non issue do you really think we'd be here?  noooo we'd all be doing something else.    YOU said you are a Pagan 4Candles, maybe you don't want to listen to Indians about this issue? I mean what do they know you might be wondering.. about Pagan New Age issues  LOL Maybe you want to stick your head in the sand?  Be unknowing and unseeing?  Is that a smart way to be these days? is that intelligent to do? Take it from an opionated Witch then.   Be sure you know who you are with and their intentions, question everything don't be ignorant.  Ignorance may be bliss but it can also be painful.  Be a smart person and protect yourself.  I don't mean to make it sound like everyone is out to get you  nooo, most people are very nice but it only takes ONE to ruin your day or your life or someone elses.  Educate others to the possibility of it and what to do if it happens like reporting it to authorities - often not done because parties involved are too embarased to report it.  At least there are Pagan counselors they can talk to now...   


On a addendum rant here...Please check out the links 
Just because you Candle or "The Pagan Federation" (is that like Starfleet?)  you claim may not acknowledge abuse within the Pagan community here or where you are the UK does not mean it does not exist period end of sentance.  I find that outlook full of denial and rather fluffy.  I did visit the Pagan Federation page... it did not sound interesting to me, not something I would belong too but then I am hard to impress over these things I guess I just question so much LOL.  Do you work for them? do you write for them?  I am surprised they don't have anything on abuse or the possibility of it on their site.  So it really does not exist then ? 

Anyone can do a google and locate instances of abuse within the Pagan community.  Its not hidden,
there are articles discussing it and attempting to address it and pose suggestions as to what to do when and if it happens including educating members of Covens and other groups.  Here, I posted a few links:

  http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usca&c=words&id=9220
"" think many times abuse within our community is swept under the rug because there is no place where reports of abuse can be given. As a result many covens and groups disband within two years of working together and many people are pulled into abusive or unhealthy coven or leadership situations. """

http://fullcirclenews.blogspot.com/2005_03_02_fullcirclenews_archive.html
"""The Pagan community needs a wake-up call in this regard. The sexual freedom that we espouse does not include irresponsible behavior in the age of Aids, or the abuse of partners. In particular, it does not support the abuse of children. Ever. """""""

Dealing with abuse in Covens
http://healing.about.com/od/selfpower/a/covenabuse.htm


You Candle, are sticking your head in the sand.  That is your choice for the denial.


Ok a disclaimer: I do not believe all Pagans/Wiccans are bad or don't know what they are doing or are this or that.  I am eternally optimistic that only a few bad apples exist to make all the others look like bad.   Gosh I feel so warm and fuzzy right now...  is that a good thing or a bad thing  ?   I'm sure though no matter what I say Candle will only attack me as Barnaby for "bashing Pagans" and others when hey, I'm a Witch these are my experiences and views on a touchy complicated matter.  I just don't approve of abuse or manipulation by poobahs. 


   
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on January 25, 2007, 11:11:23 pm
I'm not too impressed by that law. It didn't stop the airing of a racist anti Native commercial in Britain when we filed complaints against it.

4Candles is confused about this too. I think s/he means the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/60001--b.htm) which is not yet in force as far as I know, and which will specifically protect freedom of expression when it is:

Quote
29J   Protection of freedom of expression

Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system.

Looks like s/he'll have to settle for casting a spell. I'll let you know if my typing finger falls off or turns into a carrot or something.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on January 25, 2007, 11:53:43 pm
Ya did good Barnaby.

Thanks, and thanks also for the links you posted: it's heartening to see this problem being addressed by pagans. The more they do it, the less people like us have to, and the more their public image improves. The last one is particularly good.

[later edit] A couple more articles by one of the authors Lindaa found. Pity about the pretentious use of the word 'tribe', but then you can't have everything (emphases mine).

It's a Mystery: Dysfunctional Behaviour and the Pagan Scene.

Part One (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usor&c=basics&id=10091)
Quote
A large number of Pagans who were once active in our community have recently gone back underground. They tell us that they have stopped going to events or have left established groups because they are tired of the drama and trauma they find there.

Part Two (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usor&c=basics&id=10141)
Quote
They come to us with a hole in their soul because they are lacking the unconditional love, guidance, and stability they deserved but never got as children, and we give them Witch Wars and yet more dysfunction. Very often they will try to fill this hole with alcohol, drugs, unhappy sexual encounters, food, and whatever else comes to hand, and we offer them no understanding of what the hole really is or how to heal it. They come to us seeking acceptance and a safe place to practice their path, and we allow predators and abusers into their circles. Some day, we will answer for this.


Lindaa:
Quote
Be sure you know who you are with and their intentions, question everything don't be ignorant.  Ignorance may be bliss but it can also be painful.  Be a smart person and protect yourself.  I don't mean to make it sound like everyone is out to get you  nooo, most people are very nice but it only takes ONE to ruin your day or your life or someone elses.

Or even kill you. I'll just preface this by saying I'm not trying to scare people away from paganism. These sad events are of course extremely atypical of neo-pagan behaviour: the point is that pagans are no less likely to destroy people than non-pagans.

In 2004 the body of a Cornish pagan, Peter Solheim, was found by fishermen. He had been drugged and tortured before being thrown dead, or almost dead, into the sea. By all accounts he was a deeply sordid character who had made large amounts of money dealing in collectable firearms and pornography, as well as making many enemies in the Cornish pagan community. He was obsessed with sex and power - boasting of his sexual charisma and threatening to magically harm people who annoyed him. Other pagans eventually tired of him, banning him from some social meetings ('moots').

His lover of nine years, Margaret James, is now serving twenty years for conspiracy to murder. James was just as involved in paganism as Solheim but no one in the scene suspected she was capable of such a horrific crime: they felt sorry for her, believing Solheim was the problem. The motives were jealously and greed: her accomplices remain at large.

Court told of 'sex and pills' (http://archive.camborneredruthpacket.co.uk/2006/4/26/55374.html)

Pagan Peter liked talking about sex (http://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/misc/print.php?artid=762337)

Plot to mutilate and murder pagan lover (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2257571_1,00.html)

Pagan drowned in lover's murder plot (http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1813564,00.html)

Occult secrets of dead councillor (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/5145682.stm)

Grandmother guilty of murder plot (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/5150954.stm)

PS: I gather a documentary has been made about this crime and is to be shown on Channel 4 in Britain this year.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: AlaskaGrl on January 30, 2007, 03:50:24 am
Looks like s/he'll have to settle for casting a spell. I'll let you know if my typing finger falls off or turns into a carrot or something.

ROFL  reminds me of the following Monty Python lyrics regarding carrots
http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/carrotju.htm

Just thought i'd throw that in sideways... kinda fits...  ;D


Lindaa
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Leonard on January 22, 2008, 05:57:21 pm
Thank you for 'jogging' my memory and helping me clear and resolve some items from my past here also.

I moved from Oklahoma to New Hampshire in 1995 as a 'seeker' and was  member of the 'coven' of 'Lady Sabrina - Our Lady of Enchantment' for the year 1995 and she was located in Nashua, New Hampshire. The reason for to move across the country is that I took 'mail order' lessons in 'witchcraft' while living in Guthrie, Oklahoma in 1994 and decided to go to this 'source' in person to research it further because I felt that 'mail order' would not do and I needed to be there 'in person' and see things with my 'own eyes'.

My 'gut feeling' is that this web-site here and your organization, NAFPS, should stay as neutral as possible and maybe not even help the 'wicca/pagan' establish a 'fraud site' because I observed a lot of 'bickering' and 'in-fighting' and think a 'fraud' site they might construct would be more a weapon than an instrument of 'truth' and 'orthodoxy'.

I think the 'wicca/pagan' is more some sort of 'western culture' social movement or phenomena and a lot of people are struggling to establish position and dominance and it could be dangerous to find yourself in the middle of their fighting, even if innocent.

Leonard.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: TelGega on January 23, 2008, 07:44:43 pm
I support the idea of having any pagan/wicca, hindu, Christain version of the NAFPS. The fact is, there are people who get taken advantage of and have their lives destroied by the Cult like factions.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 23, 2008, 10:10:30 pm
Well, as many problems as I have with the Neopagan communities (and believe me, after dealing with them on and off since the early eighties, I've seen all kinds of awful things) the fact is that there are groups of Pagans or Neopagans who are more intelligent, politically aware and ethical than others. Among those with experience, maturity and intelligence, people like 'Lady Sabrina', with her mail-order courses and odd beliefs, are not respected.

Among the more traditional, ethnic Pagans, heck, even among the more "traditional" Wiccans, there is the shared belief/principle that you need to learn in person, not through mail order or the Internet. And while some ethnic communities, such as the urban Afro-Diasporic traditions, do have a traditional way that money/recompense is handled in their communities, the traditions that came out of England (for example) have prohibitions on accepting money for teaching.

With the Internet and all the crappy, mass-market books out there, a lot of the traditional structures have broken down, and there are more frauds now, as well as a larger pool of seekers for them to prey on. I think every spiritual community needs to be aware that there are predators out there, and stand firm against them.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Laurel on January 29, 2008, 09:27:08 pm
Well said. 

Well, as many problems as I have with the Neopagan communities (and believe me, after dealing with them on and off since the early eighties, I've seen all kinds of awful things) the fact is that there are groups of Pagans or Neopagans who are more intelligent, politically aware and ethical than others. Among those with experience, maturity and intelligence, people like 'Lady Sabrina', with her mail-order courses and odd beliefs, are not respected.

Among the more traditional, ethnic Pagans, heck, even among the more "traditional" Wiccans, there is the shared belief/principle that you need to learn in person, not through mail order or the Internet. And while some ethnic communities, such as the urban Afro-Diasporic traditions, do have a traditional way that money/recompense is handled in their communities, the traditions that came out of England (for example) have prohibitions on accepting money for teaching.

With the Internet and all the crappy, mass-market books out there, a lot of the traditional structures have broken down, and there are more frauds now, as well as a larger pool of seekers for them to prey on. I think every spiritual community needs to be aware that there are predators out there, and stand firm against them.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on January 30, 2008, 08:33:53 am
Good, come on over...

Pagans Against Sexual, Emotional & Financial Abuse

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PagansAgainstSexualEmotionalFinancialAbuse/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PagansAgainstSexualEmotionalFinancialAbuse/)

Mr. McEwan, thank you for the info and links on Peter Solheim.  This will be posted on the site as soon as I get them somewhat organized.  May I use the words you posted from...  "In 2004"...[snip] to "at large.", as an introduction to the topic? 

Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on January 30, 2008, 09:07:56 am
Ah, Mr. McEwan....

Quote
This is common knowledge. Due to the sexual predilections of its inventor, Gerald Gardner, many "Traditional" Wiccan ceremonies involve ritual nudity, blindfolding, binding, flagellation and sexual intercourse, do they not?
Quote
sexual predators abound

Yanno, you just can't paint all Pagans with the same brush. 

Lots of "words" and "meanings" being thrown around on this thread.  Most of them wrong.  Wicca did NOT pre-date New-Age as that is used to describe the Age of Aquarius which we have (or are still moving) into.  The last age was that of Pisces, hence the symbolic fish used by Christians... and you can go back in history and find all the "ages" connected in some way or another with the signs.  Now, if you mean (the somewhat disrespectful) tern "Nuage", then you are probably correct. 

However, New-Age does not mean Nuage does not mean Pagan does not mean Wicca.  You cannot use the terms Nuage/Pagan/Wicca etc all in the same breath.  No more than you can generalize "all Indians".  It's not so.  I am Pagan.  This simply means that I do not subscribe to any beliefs "of the book", for instance "The Christian Bible", "The Muslim Qur'an" etc.  Wicca comes under the umbrella term Pagan although it often does have some form of liturgy.  Many also place Buddhism in this category. 

And then there are the smaller, lesser known groups of Asatru, Goth, etc etc.  Some may fall under your brush, but not all.

And just FYI... I personally think that Gerald Gardiner was a certifiable nutcase.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Leonard on January 30, 2008, 06:06:46 pm
I am curious to learn more. Is this accurate information about the category 'Pagan' ?

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

Leonard.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on January 30, 2008, 07:01:05 pm
Mr. McEwan, thank you for the info and links on Peter Solheim.  This will be posted on the site as soon as I get them somewhat organized.  May I use the words you posted from...  "In 2004"...[snip] to "at large.", as an introduction to the topic?

No, but if you write your own summary you'll have the pleasure of knowing it's your own work.

Ah, Mr. McEwan....Yanno, you just can't paint all Pagans with the same brush...

You cannot use the terms Nuage/Pagan/Wicca etc all in the same breath.  No more than you can generalize "all Indians".  It's not so.  I am Pagan.  This simply means that I do not subscribe to any beliefs "of the book", for instance "The Christian Bible", "The Muslim Qur'an" etc.

You seem to be implying that all atheists are pagans. I'm sorry but the rest of those two paragraphs don't make much sense to me either. Can you point out more specifically what I'm wrong about in this thread?


Is this accurate information about the category 'Pagan' ?

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

Without even looking I'd say no. I think wikipedia is useless for learning about any even mildly controversial subject. If you want articles on mathematics or the physical sciences you'll probably be alright but otherwise forget it. Knowledgeable contributors making an effort to present neutral views seem to be vastly outnumbered by teenagers and people with an axe to grind on a particular topic.

Take a look at this article (http://www.wikitruth.info/index.php?title=Gaming_the_system), and the rest of that site, to learn more about wikipedia's many problems.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Leonard on January 30, 2008, 07:43:45 pm
I think you are probably right, particularly in the area of 'controversial' topics. The difficulty that I am having is finding reputable 'primary sources' against which to research the claims made by the proponents of 'neo-paganism' as I shall refer to this category (for lack of a better term).

As near as I can tell: " Neopaganism covers a wide range of belief systems which have emerged in the past 50 years, primarily in the UK, Europe, and the United States. This includes the better known Wicca, which is a synthesis of traditions from the British Isles, as well as many less visible groups which draw inspiration from other parts of the world. Based on folk-lore, traditional spiritual practices, anthropology, and a synthesis of esoteric systems, Neopaganism does not have any sacred texts of the same vintage as other religions, although unverifiable claims have been made in a couple of cases (e.g. Aradia, and The Gardnerian Book of Shadows). "

and:

" Although little is actually known about the Druids, that didn't stop 18th and 19th century intellectuals from building a romantic mythology around them. This was closely associated with the rebirth of Celtic nationalism, as well as the Romantic and Gothic movements. This body of fact and speculation later became a central source of modern Wicca and Neo-Pagan belief and practice. "

and:

" The New Thought movement, which originated in the late 19th and early 20th century, has at its core a belief that a higher power pervades all existence, and that individuals can create their own reality via affirmations, meditation and prayer. Early New Thought groups emerged from a Christian Science background, and many New Thought writers refer back to the Bible as their foundation text. New Thought resembles in some respects New Age philosophy, although some New Thought groups dismiss a connection. "

source = http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/index.htm

Leonard.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 30, 2008, 10:24:18 pm
Lots of "words" and "meanings" being thrown around on this thread. 

Well, it's a verbal medium. That's what we have to work with here. ;-)

Quote
New-Age does not mean Nuage...

For the most part, I have to disagree with you here. I think in common parlance, when people use the term "New Age" (or "Nuage" or "Newage (rhymes with sewage)"), they are not thinking solely in terms of pop-culture astrological "eras" (which only some people even find credible astrologically speaking), but using it as a descriptor of the modern, highly eclectic, capitalist, personal "spirituality" that is an outgrowth of Christian Science, Spiritualism and misunderstood Eastern philosophies, but has picked up bits and pieces of just about any and every belief system along the way.

The Newage system/attitude is inherently consumerist and racist at its core, and I have yet to meet anyone involved in it that hasn't been tainted by those values to one extent or another (though some people manage to leave and regain their sanity). I say this as someone who explored the Rebirthing cults and similar groups in the 1980s, and since the '70s have watched th Newage plagues creep further and further into both the mainstream as well as corrupting and damaging other, more traditional communities.

Quote
...does not mean Pagan does not mean Wicca.

The post-Internet Neopagan milieu has been heavily influenced by Newage trends and assumptions. And aspects of Paganism and Wicca have been incorporated into many Newage groups and scams (as we all know they also attempt to rip off and incorporate First Nations ones).

Quote
You cannot use the terms Nuage/Pagan/Wicca etc all in the same breath. 

No, these words don't actually mean the same thing to those of us who've been around for a long time and know their origins. However, as some people have more recently muddied the boundaries extensively, and have sometimes used them interchangeably, I do think its understandable when someone assumes otherwise. There are certainly frauds out there making it seem that it's all the same thing. For some people, it is.

Quote
I am Pagan.

If it's not too personal a question, may I ask which culture/community/tradition?

Quote
This simply means that I do not subscribe to any beliefs "of the book", for instance "The Christian Bible", "The Muslim Qur'an" etc.

Um, well, we have two definitions at work here. Small "p" "pagan" means "non-Abhramic", and also incorporates all "non-religious persons". But in modern usage, capital "P" "Pagan" or "Neopagan" is also used to refer to those who follow some sort of, usually European, Pre-Christian tradition (or, as in the case of some Wiccans, those who *believe* their tradition is Pre-Christian, whether or not it actually is). (See Adler for more on the terminolgy issues. Hutton may cover it as well, iirc.)

Quote
Wicca comes under the umbrella term Pagan although it often does have some form of liturgy.  Many also place Buddhism in this category. 

Wicca is considered a form of Neopaganism, but your point about liturgy confuses me. Ethnic Pagan traditions have liturgy. Wicca has liturgy. Properly, I think only BritTrad Wicca, which is very heavy on liturgy, should even be considered Wicca, as the Neo-Wiccan traditions have departed from it heavily. (Not expressing a preference here, just historical fact. I'm not a Wiccan, and consider all forms of Wicca eclectic and mostly made-up, however I think the traditions who coined the term should have the right to define it.) If by the lack of liturgy you're referring to eclectic Neopagans who make it up as they go along but call themselves Wiccans (or people who got the word from Buffy the Vampire Slayer), but have never trained in a traditional, lineaged group, I don't think they should really be called Wiccans. But I don't really care what those folks are called *shrugs*

What really confuses me is your calling Buddhism "Pagan". Um, no. There are eclectic Neopagans who dabble in Buddhism, and call themselves "Buddheo-Pagans", but that doesn't make Buddhism itself Pagan or Neopagan. And calling Buddhism (small "p") "pagan" is an insult, imho.

Quote
And then there are the smaller, lesser known groups of Asatru, Goth, etc etc. 

??satrú is a Germanic/Norse stream of Polytheistic Reconstructionism. With the Eddas, a good deal of surviving folklore, and at least one priest of the old traditions surviving in Iceland into my lifetime, they've had a lot to build on. While there has been the serious problem of racists being attracted to it, as well as some who don't consider themselves racist still using source materials written by racists, for those who actually adhere to its better principles, it is an ethnic tradition with about as much validity and heft to it as you'll find among white folks. However, "Goth" is a musical/fashion style affected by some of the younger Neopagans, not an historical magical tradition. (Unless you're speaking about some spiritual traditions of the real, historical Goths... which afaik have nothing to do with the sort of "spooky Neo-Wicca" that some young people are calling "Gothic".)

Quote
And just FYI... I personally think that Gerald Gardiner was a certifiable nutcase.

I don't agree that Gardner was "certifiable". Like many men of his time and background, he had some ugly sexual issues that found their way into his work. His particular neuroses have never appealed to me, and I find many of them gross, laughable, or even psychologically harmful.  His work has even sowed the seeds for physical and sexual harm, as his interest in bondage and whipping, even if described in his writings as not being done to injure people, have been used by some as an excuse to tie women up and rape and beat them (and then tell them to shut up about it because it's a secret religious ritual).  He has a lot to answer for.

I hate that Gardner insisted that his sexual problems and other lies were somehow a part of Celtic culture or religion. Gardner didn't know shit about the Celts, he was a Brit. I will never support the fact that he lied, and tried to tell people that his eclectic mishmash, which also ripped off his ideas of First Nations practices, was Celtic. I'm still dealing every day with people that bought that line.

So, no, I personally have no respect for Gardner, but I do think that anyone who's using Wiccan ideas or structures as part of their practice (as are most Neopagans) does owe him honest treatment by being aware of what parts of their practice were created by him. What decisions they make from there on in are on their heads, but I don't think they can both criticize his obvious, serious problems while also using what he wrote.

Barnaby wrote:
Quote
Due to the sexual predilections of its inventor, Gerald Gardner, many "Traditional" Wiccan ceremonies involve ritual nudity, blindfolding, binding, flagellation and sexual intercourse, do they not?

I am not a Gardnerian or Alexandrian initiate, but as far as I know from acquaintance who are, yes, the rituals regularly involve nudity. Most of it sounds pretty tame and non-sexual, if at times silly, and the few rituals I've attended with BritTrad people did not involve any sexual activity, coercion or manipulation. However, "scourging", blindfolding, binding and sometimes intercourse are part of some of the initiation rituals of BritTrad covens. It's in their official materials. The rituals are supposed to be secret, but people do talk. 

Whether the sexual stuff is kept as just symbolism or actually engaged in varies among groups. Most I've heard of just keep it symbolic. While I know of covens that have never done anything untoward, I also know of situations where women were raped and battered, and the "tradition" used as the excuse. In those cases I was involved in trying to get the abusers banished from Neopagan gatherings. Sometimes we succeeded, but in other cases some prominent Neopagan event organizers refused to believe the rape survivors and defended the abusers.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 31, 2008, 02:54:26 am
Good, come on over...

Pagans Against Sexual, Emotional & Financial Abuse

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PagansAgainstSexualEmotionalFinancialAbuse/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PagansAgainstSexualEmotionalFinancialAbuse/)

Ganieda, I followed the link on your profile at the above link to your Yahoo360 page. Is this your blog? http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=784

and this?
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=136
Quote
Warrior, Shaman and Teacher I am.
© *Ganieda* 2004

Which is also reproduced here: http://www.wordswordswords.4t.com/thiswoman.html with this addenda:
Quote
Ganieda currently manages and writes for several e-groups relating to the topic of Shamanism.

And I'll add: http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=537
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on January 31, 2008, 10:13:40 pm
Quote
No, but if you write your own summary you'll have the pleasure of knowing it's your own work.

Thank you Mr. McEwan for your generosity.  *sigh*
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on January 31, 2008, 10:59:20 pm
Quote
Quote from: Sue on January 18, 2007, 01:52:52 pm
Who on earth told you that sleeping with our Pagan teachers is sometimes common?
Your response....
Quote
This is common knowledge. Due to the sexual predilections of its inventor, Gerald Gardner, many "Traditional" Wiccan ceremonies involve ritual nudity, blindfolding, binding, flagellation and sexual intercourse, do they not?

the question had to do with Pagan teachers, yet your answer refers only to ""Traditional" Wiccan"... and sleeping with our Pagan teachers is NOT common.

Common knowledge?  Perhaps.... kind of like the "common knowledge" that all Indians are spiritual or have the same beliefs? 

Quote
You seem to be implying that all atheists are pagans.
Well, I suppose they could be pagan, but they would not be considered Pagan as they have no belief in anything spiritual whatsoever. 
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on January 31, 2008, 11:02:55 pm
4Candles
Quote
"It most definitely not extremely common, in fact is so rare I have never heard of it!"
"There is no forum dedicated to the abused because there is no need for one."

Where have you been?  Never heard of it?  C'mon, what heap of sand do you have your head in? 
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on January 31, 2008, 11:06:31 pm
Mr. McEwan
Quote
"An' it harm none..."? By the way the "Wiccan Rede" is derived from the occultist Aleister Crowley's dictum "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law".   "Wouldn't it be simpler to cast a spell on me than deal with all that paperwork?"
There is also the belief that what you do to others will return to you threefold, (some say ninefold)...in either case it can be a strong deterent to those who take the "Wiccan Rede" lightly.  So spellcasting to cause harm is out! 

Lindaa
Quote
"Needless to say not all Witches practise the ridiculous "harm none" If you smack some of us, you will be smacked back." 
And that also goes for many other Pagans...perhaps threefold. 
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on January 31, 2008, 11:10:38 pm
Quote
"If it's not too personal a question, may I ask which culture/community/tradition?"

It is personal, however I will answer this.  I do not belong to any culture, community, or tradition.  "My people" lived in the peat bog areas of lower Europe, in the Netherland region.  Then, along came the Vikings, from the north, raping and pillaging...and adding to my illustrious ancestry.  In time, the Spanish did the same. 

So, who am I?  Well, I'm NOT Christian.  "My people" never were.  They were Pagans practising the age-old traditions of "shamanism" (just a word of communication here, not a definition), and animism.  Later, there was a veneer of Christianity, it was either that or die. 

Do I dare now to re-claim what was lost to me?  Yes.  And I find it in various places.  People move, they evolve, they change...and so do traditions.  But I try to seek them out and I try not to step on the traditions of others...although that can be difficult as there is a element of overlap. 

So I continue to honour the "creator-god", acknowledge the seven sacred directions, and believe that in EVERY thing there is spirit.  And I learn.
 
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on January 31, 2008, 11:16:29 pm
Quote
"What really confuses me is your calling Buddhism Pagan  "

I did not call Buddhism "Pagan".  Read it again.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 31, 2008, 11:20:34 pm
Quote
"If it's not too personal a question, may I ask which culture/community/tradition?"
It is personal, however I will answer this.  I do not belong to any culture, community, or tradition.  "My people" lived in the peat bog areas of lower Europe, in the Netherland region.

So, who am I?  Well, I'm NOT Christian.  "My people" never were.  They were Pagans practising the age-old traditions of "shamanism" (just a word of communication here, not a definition), and animism.  Later, there was a veneer of Christianity, it was either that or die. 

Do I dare now to re-claim what was lost to me?  Yes.  And I find it in various places.  People move, they evolve, they change...and so do traditions.  But I try to seek them out and I try not to step on the traditions of others...although that can be difficult as there is a element of overlap. 

So I continue to honour the "creator-god", acknowledge the seven sacred directions, and believe that in EVERY thing there is spirit.  And I learn.

Well, "the seven sacred directions" were not part of the Dutch people's traditions. You don't sound to me like you're "reclaiming" the traditions of your ancestors, you sound to me like an eclectic Neopagan who is appropriating misunderstood First Nations ideas. And you have racist stereotypes of Indians on your website. (See the links in my post above, which, while you're yellling at people, you have not addressed)

In other posts you're calling yourself a shaman. Are you now claiming to be indigenous to Siberia?

I'm not sure why you're here. You're being rather insulting to others in this thread, notably Barnaby who, despite your calling yourself a Pagan, seems to me to have done more research into the actual history of Neopaganism than you have.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on January 31, 2008, 11:29:10 pm
Quote
Ganieda, I followed the link on your profile at the above link to your Yahoo360 page. Is this your blog?
Yes, those pages are on my blog.  Your search smacks somewhat of stalking for the purpose of digging up dirt.  If you have spare time on your hands, keep digging, you'll prolly find more.  Rememer tho, "he who slings dirt ends up with mud on his face".  I am a member here to share pertinent info when I can because I believe in the "cause"... not because I crave a need to be dis-credited. 

Now, I can only surmise that you picked out those pages because I used *Egads* that dreaded word "Shaman".  Well, nowhere on those pages do I refer to anything of Native American culture or spirituality so I see no problem with using it.  I am told, repeatedly, that Native Americans do NOT have Shamans, so I fail to see why, (unless I use it in the context of anything Native American), the word "Shaman" is such an issue. 

And since when did you become an expert on Dutch people's traditions?

As for Mr. McEwan, I'm quite sure he can speak for himself.... as he has done in the past. 
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 31, 2008, 11:41:30 pm
Yes, those pages are on my blog.

Thank you for finally owning up to that.

Quote
Your search smacks somewhat of stalking for the purpose of digging up dirt.
You invited us to join your YahooGroup. I clicked on your yahoo profile and there was the link. Not a lot of detective work involved.

Quote
Well, nowhere on those pages do I refer to anything of Native American culture or spirituality so I see no problem with using it.  I am told, repeatedly, that Native Americans do NOT have Shamans, so I fail to see why, (unless I use it in the context of anything Native American), the word "Shaman" is such an issue.

Well, in case you haven't read your blog recently, here's some quotes:
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=784
Quote
The Shaman held up his jewel encrusted medicine stick
a heady scent of opium permeated the air
the incessant beating of tom toms
pounded through my brain
...
your dreams are like the wild, restless buffalo on the plains
and you are still, a long long way from home
his snakeskin rattle flew through the air
...
the medicine man's eyes narrowed
as he fixed me with a benign grin
the tonic for your latent illness
is to start loving yourself
above all else
I started quivering deep down inside
...
I could tell he didn't belong to this earth
as his presence shimmered in psychadelic trance
raven hair bedecked his crown
...
the atmosphere was charged and electric
as he chanted in measured , native tongue
...
and as he silently began to vanish
behind a ritual haze
I heard a barely audible whisper
draw closer to Great Spirit
and Great Spirit will draw closer to you


Maybe it's only me that thinks that's a racist caricature of a Native American man, and a self-absorbed fantasy of what Indian ceremonies are about.

And another of your blog entries: http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=537
Quote
Ancient One sat in the shade of his tree in front of his cave. Red People came to him and he said to Red People, "Tell me your vision."

And Red People answered, "The elders have told us to pray in this manner, and that manner, and it is important that we only pray as we have been taught for this has been handed down to us by the elders." "Hmmm," said Ancient One.
...
Ancient One thought this was very sad. He called Red People, Black People, Yellow People, and White People to him and said to them. "The ways taught to you by your Elders, and your Mothers and Fathers, and Teachers, and Books are sacred. It is good that you respect those ways, for they are the ways of your ancestors.

But the ancestors no longer walk on the Face of the Earth Mother. You have forgotten your own Vision. Your Vision is right for you but no one else. Now each of you must pray for your own Vision, and be still enough to see it, so you can follow the way of the heart. It is a hard way. It is a good way.

Again, maybe I'm the only one who sees that as a Nuage and racist misrepresentation of First Nations peoples and traditions.

This blog entry you posted combines Native American spirits, tobacco, and... Thor. http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=238
Quote
When the stones were glowing hot
and showing shades of red and blue
…she scattered sacred water
to make a misting dreamtime hue.
...
The Moon is her brother
who lives in the West.
The Water Spider brought the fire
…in each dwelling kept.

White lightening and the Rainbow
are sons of mighty Thor.
They live up in the Western sky
where sacred Eagle lives and soars…
and...songs are only sung when
cunning snake takes his nightly sleep…
and there is no fear of bites…and
elusive Nunne’hi live in the mountains
…helping those in dire need.

The Rabbit is the trickster,
often caught in his own schemes.
Yunwi Tsunsdi are delightful sprites
…who love to dance and sing.

The Hummingbird brought tobacco leaves
to relieve man's suffering and his pain;
and if placed upon a glowing fire
...can divine the future for each of us
…and welcome home our friends.???

Then you top it all off by calling yourself a "Shaman and Teacher". http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=136
Quote
This woman....
is a daughter of the Spirit.
Child of the ancestors.
Warrior, Shaman
and Teacher I am.
© *Ganieda*

And again, maybe I'm the only one who thinks this sort of stuff is exactly the reason that most people expect the worst when they hear the words "Pagan" or "Neopagan."
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on February 01, 2008, 12:29:40 am
Quote
Thank you for finally owning up to that
I have never denied this. 

... and I don't remember you asking me permission to repost these or to link to my site here. 

Quote
Again, maybe I'm the only one who sees that as a Nuage and racist misrepresentation of First Nations peoples and traditions.

Where does this mention anything relating directly to Native Americans?  It mentions the "Red People, Black People, Yellow People, and White People"

Quote
Then you top it all off by calling yourself a "Shaman and Teacher
Yes, as a word of communication of an idea.  I could have used "Healer", Medicine Woman" or some such, but THOSE would definitely refer to Native Americans, so I didn't use them. 

...and I don't refer to myself as

Quote
"Religious Cult Leader", "Raging Celt", "priestess"
(found on your websites.)

It would serve a more useful purpose of your time if you would try to be a bit more positive to the fact that I am trying to do some good with my own site, as well as here.  Nit-picking on pet-peeves is self-destructive.

Oh, and BTW... I'm thinking about changing my name and title to: "Lady Whines-a-Lot, High - MF (nasty word) -Bitch-in-Charge, Grove of the Third Eye Migraine."  So be it.  So mote it be.  Amen.  Whatever....  Do you have a problem with that?
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Defend the Sacred on February 01, 2008, 01:56:24 am
It would serve a more useful purpose of your time if you would try to be a bit more positive to the fact that I am trying to do some good with my own site, as well as here.  Nit-picking on pet-peeves is self-destructive.

Pointing out racism and cultural appropriation is not "nit-picking". That you would regard the racist stuff you post as that minor, or being bothered by racism as merely a  "pet-peeve", is pretty disturbing.

You posted here advertising your YahooGroup, claiming that it's a "Pagan Version of NAFPS".  Given what I've seen on your Yahoo360 site now, that's an insulting comparison. NAFPS is for fighting cultural appropriation and the racist exploitation of traditional peoples and cultures. I think it was reasonable to assume that a person (or group) claiming to be modeling their group on NAFPS would also be anti-racist and anti-cultural-appropriation.

It's not like you're some random person on the street that got their private belongings sifted through - you're someone who's trying to lead a public, political group, and the public posts I linked to above were two clicks away from that invitation.  As the organizer and almost sole poster to the YahooGroup, your behaviour reflects strongly on the values of the group. That you are presenting yourself as someone who is comfortable appropriating and misrepresenting Indigenous cultures is something that those seeing this advert have a right to know.

As for any good your site may be doing... hard to say. So far what I've seen there is cut and pasted stuff already covered by the mainstream news, or links to sites already familiar to those in the Pagan community.  But the main point for me is this: Even if you do manage to do some good with your other activities, people have a right to know you're misrepresenting indigenous culture. Other "good" does not cancel out that racist behaviour.

Not that it matters, as it has nothing to do with exploiting anyone's religion or culture, but... as "Raging Celt" was my facetious answer to the "race" question on a MySpace page, and "Religious Cult Leader" was followed by "Dog Wrangler" and "Satirist" in response to the "profession" question, I had kind of thought people would understand by the context that I was joking. As for the "priestess" thing, Yeah, that's one of the roles I fill in my community. *shrugs* That bit is serious, but I like to think I still have a sense of humour about it, too. (refer back to "religious cult leader" bit. *snerk*)

Edited To Add: If I had seen this earlier thread, and the pains other members went to, I would have understood the silence in this thread and also elected to not feed the troll: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=361.0;all
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on February 01, 2008, 03:17:35 am
Leonard...
Quote
I am curious to learn more. Is this accurate information about the category 'Pagan' ?
A reasonably good overview of Paganism, Neo-paganism, Witchcraft and the Heathen and Reconstructionist religions (better than Wikipedia)

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usfl&c=basics&id=4575 (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usfl&c=basics&id=4575)
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Ganieda on February 01, 2008, 03:57:23 am
Quote
claiming that it's a "Pagan Version of NAFPS .. {snip} claiming to be modeling their group on NAFPS
I made no such claim and I posted the invitation after requesting, and recieving, permission of the managers of this group.  The focus is not on "anti-racist and anti-cultural-appropriation".  That is the reason for THIS group.  As for "appropriating and misrepresenting Indigenous cultures", I do no such thing.   

Quote
So far what I've seen there is cut and pasted stuff already covered by the mainstream news, or links to sites already familiar to those in the Pagan community.
Correct.  A lot of it is cut and pasted from mainstream news.  What I have done is gathered it together to present an overview of individuals.  I also need to be very careful to back up whatever is posted on that site as I don't care to be handed a claim for slandor, libel or character defamation.  I'm sticking my neck out far enough simply having a site like this.  Courageous?  or Foolish?

And, no, many of the links, articles and sites are NOT generally familiar to the Pagan community.  That is one reason why I posted them. 

To the "PASEFA" site you wrote: 
Quote
Did you get Isaac's permission to re-post this?
Yet, here you claim
Quote
"and the public posts I linked to above were two clicks away from that invitation."
  You did not just post links, you copied and pasted almost the entire pages, without permission.  I also responded to your post, ... 
Quote
Thank you for the "heads-up".  His website clearly states "Copyright © 1979, 2001 c.e., Isaac Bonewits. This text file may be freely distributed on the Net, provided that no editing is done, the version number is retained, and everything in this notice box is included. If you would like to be on one or more of Isaac Bonewits' emailing lists, click here to get subscription information."
And now, I think it is time for us all to SHUT-UP and quit bickering and get on with doing something positive instead.  I, for one, need to research those links that Mr. McEwan so kindly posted, even if I do have to re-write an intro.  *sigh*... so much for co-operation between sites. 
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Mabonwy on April 14, 2008, 03:48:08 pm
All of contemporary neo-paganism is derived from the religion invented in the late 40s-early 50s by him and his fellow pioneers.

I realize I'm coming to this way late, but bear with me.

Feri, and by extension Reclaiming, are not.   They are based on "a home-grown American strain of religious witchcraft"  (from Hutton's book, your own source) which pre-dates Gardner.   Further...a lot of the "Gardner made it all up" stuff comes from Aidan Kelly, who is himself not a very reliable source.  So be careful with those broad assertions.  Like a lot of things, the truth is more complicated.

I'm usually a bit puzzled by the people who *simultaneously* say that Gardner invented Wicca out of whole cloth, and that he was influenced by the Golden Dawn, etc.   Which is it?  And what exactly is wrong with being influenced by the Golden Dawn, who were in turn influenced by the Rosicrucians, who are part of a Western occult tradition that's traceable back through the Renaissance and beyond?  (Frances Yates, "The Rosicrucian Enlightenment")   Idries Shah thinks European witchcraft is partially an offshoot of Sufism brought to Europe during the Middle Ages.   I'm not sure what I think of that, but whatever the origin of that stuff ultimately is, it's worth preserving and NOT a recent invention.

At any rate, I think there's a really simple way to evaluate Pagan frauds that doesn't require arguing validity between groups or defining "Paganism"  (a hopeless task):   Are they who they say they are?   Do the people they claim as teachers and initiators know them?   Do they get shirty when you ask them for contact info from their teachers/community?  Do they try to coerce you into *anything* based on your desire to learn?.....Because even though there is a controversy in Feri about charging money to teach, there ARE teachers around who don't charge money, and any of the ones who do should be both willing and able to refer you to someone who does not.    That's just one example from my own trad.  If someone is part of a community, and not just teaching something they came up with on their own, then there are other community members who have a different take on the matter and who can be communicated with.  There are LOTS of Pagans around, so talk to people.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Defend the Sacred on April 16, 2008, 04:32:18 am
Further...a lot of the "Gardner made it all up" stuff comes from Aidan Kelly, who is himself not a very reliable source.

The thing is, Kelly is not the first, nor only, researcher to come to this conclusion. I heard all of this years before Kelly published, from the man who brought the Alexandrian tradition to the US in the sixties. My own background in Hinduism also made it clear what some of Gardner's sources were.

Whether it's "whole cloth" or "influenced by over a dozen different religions, compiled into an eclectic, modern tradition passed off as ancient" is really a matter of semantics, imho.

It does seem that Anderson had an influence from Appalachian folk magic, satanism* and hoodoo in his early versions of Feri (not sure if he was calling it Feri yet at that point), but he did bring in A LOT of stuff from Gardner when he discovered Gardner's books. Or that's what I recall Anderson saying in interviews.

*I don't say that to imply that Feri or the traditions derived from it are "satanic", only that in the research I've seen, it seemed pretty clear that Anderson took inspiration from folk traditions like, "Go into the graveyard, naked at midnight, and ask the Devil for magical powers." and similar stuff. It also seems like Anderson's presentation of what Feri was/is changed significantly over his lifetime.

And, well, there is the whole initiation story, which is exactly like Gardner's, IIRC.

While many people seem to feel drawn to Feri, I have to say that a tradition that combines Hawaiian, African, Celtic and Middle Eastern ideas, practices and symbology has to be modern. In my experience people didn't used to claim Feri was pre-Gardnerian. I only heard people start claiming that after Kelly was published and they didn't like what he had to say. 
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Mabonwy on April 17, 2008, 05:00:06 am
Well, it's *Hutton* who is willing to credit the idea that Feri is a "home-grown American strain of religious witchcraft".   Either you think Hutton is a reliable source, or you don't, but if people are going to use him to back up their opinions, they need to take in *all* of what he says, not just strip it down and use it like a stick to whack people with. 

Anderson's story isn't at all like Gardner's, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Yes, he sure did change what he did over time, as the practitioners of living traditions sometimes do, and the different lines of Feri have different practices, not the least because we all feel perfectly willing to keep evolving what we are doing.  But there's a core of stuff that he passed down to everyone, that didn't come from *anywhere* else.  Anywhere you encounter it, it came *from* Feri, not otherwise.

I personally disagree with the idea that an old tradition has to be "pure"; I think that the opposite is most likely to be true, because the natural tendency of people is to syncretize and adapt, *especially* when they are under some kind of pressure.  Plus Victor personally tended to universalize, and assume that anything he encountered that was LIKE what he was doing was part of the same "secret" strain of mystic whatever.  But that was him. 

My own feeling on the matter is that I am not a European and I have no interest in reconstructing Old Ancient Traditions I am dubious of the validity of and which I feel no cultural connection to, nor yet trying to swipe ones from indigenous cultures I'm also not part of.  I'm a tenth-generation creolized American (by which I mean that I'm mostly but not entirely Euro-descended) and *my* cultural traditions include exactly the hoodoo and Southern folk magic that Feri is most firmly rooted in.   My family practiced that stuff  and Feri is (at least parts of it) an organic extension of it.  It's as close to being a culturally appropriate religious practice that actually conforms to my personal values as I'm going to get. 

Anyway, my point was, that the advantage of the initiatory traditions that people are having so much fun scoffing at here is that....they have initiatory lineages.  Which you can CHECK.  If someone claims an initiation in trad Wicca or Feri, you can ask to be put in contact with their initiator.  If the person refuses, you should be suspicious.


Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on April 17, 2008, 06:16:59 pm
Feri, and by extension Reclaiming, are not. They are based on "a home-grown American strain of religious witchcraft"  (from Hutton's book, your own source) which pre-dates Gardner.

The quote is "Starhawk was a feminist who had been trained by Gardnerians and then initiated into one of the home-grown American strains of pagan witchcraft which had absorbed some material from Wicca, the Faery, taught by Victor Anderson." It's on p345 of Hutton's book, fact fans.

So when was it homegrown? Could you provide some evidence that it predates Gardner, please?

Quote
I'm usually a bit puzzled by the people who *simultaneously* say that Gardner invented Wicca out of whole cloth, and that he was influenced by the Golden Dawn, etc.   Which is it?  And what exactly is wrong with being influenced by the Golden Dawn...

It's wrong if you conceal it, as Gardner did when he publicised his new religion.

I personally disagree with the idea that an old tradition has to be "pure"...

It at least has to be old if that's what people are claiming it is.

Quote
Anyway, my point was, that the advantage of the initiatory traditions that people are having so much fun scoffing at here is that....they have initiatory lineages.  Which you can CHECK.  If someone claims an initiation in trad Wicca or Feri, you can ask to be put in contact with their initiator.  If the person refuses, you should be suspicious.

What if the initiator is a fantasist who gets a buzz out of initiating other fantasists? What if the person who initiated the initiator tended to universalize, and assume that anything he encountered that was LIKE what he was doing was part of the same "secret" strain of mystic whatever?
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Defend the Sacred on April 19, 2008, 08:17:34 am
Either you think Hutton is a reliable source, or you don't, but if people are going to use him to back up their opinions, they need to take in *all* of what he says, not just strip it down and use it like a stick to whack people with.

Have to disagree with you here. Never met the author I agreed with unequivocally, 100%, no questions asked. Hutton has done some good work, but other areas of his research (such as on Sheela na Gigs) are superficial or incomplete. He's tried to cover a lot of territory, and has done some areas of it better than others. I think it's rather unrealistic, and non-academic, to think any author or book is either 100% perfect *or* totally worthless, with no in-betweens. It's all a continuum, and critical thought is not optional ;-)

Quote
Anderson's story isn't at all like Gardner's, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Perhaps I was thinking Alex Sanders and Anderson. The underage sex with a mysterious old woman in the kitchen. (page 78, Adler, DDTM - Anderson)
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: yngona on May 30, 2008, 04:44:55 pm
Are there ANY Celtic reconstructionist groups out there that are not nuage, romanticized, historically inacurate, or eclectic?  If the Asatru people can piece together their old traditions, why are the Celtic traditions so full of bad information?

Sadly, Asatru/Heathenry has its nuagers as well.  They have infiltrated our ancestral folkway and work actively to water down our well-documented customs and traditions.

Live Deliberately!
Yngona Desmond
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: yngona on May 30, 2008, 05:00:19 pm
Quote
Asatrú is a Germanic/Norse stream of Polytheistic Reconstructionism. With the Eddas, a good deal of surviving folklore, and at least one priest of the old traditions surviving in Iceland into my lifetime, they've had a lot to build on. While there has been the serious problem of racists being attracted to it, as well as some who don't consider themselves racist still using source materials written by racists, for those who actually adhere to its better principles, it is an ethnic tradition with about as much validity and heft to it as you'll find among white folks. However, "Goth" is a musical/fashion style affected by some of the younger Neopagans, not an historical magical tradition. (Unless you're speaking about some spiritual traditions of the real, historical Goths... which afaik have nothing to do with the sort of "spooky Neo-Wicca" that some young people are calling "Gothic".)

Nicely explained.  Thank you.

Heathens (also: Asatruers) have a remarkable wealth of history to rely upon (the Eddas being but one small portion).

Real Heathens are not racists but respectful of their ancestry.  In truth, we should be considered 'ancestor worshippers' or 'ancestor venerators'.  And the only 'goths' I know are also Heathen tribes - the East Germanic Visigoths and Ostergoths.  The former settled in modern day Spain and the latter in Italy and the Balkans.

Live Deliberately!
Yngona Desmond
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on May 30, 2008, 06:49:56 pm
Sadly, Asatru/Heathenry has its nuagers as well.  They have infiltrated our ancestral folkway and work actively to water down our well-documented customs and traditions.

Indeed. One reviewer of a book of yours considers you one of them:

Quote
Apparently, she spends more time "actively monitoring ley lines", "assisting local Guardians with energy clean-up" and "reconnecting in a non-invasive manner with primal and ancestral energies" while communing with her "folk-soul" than she does performing scholarly research. This is definitely not a scholarly work as the first reviewer states, but is a new-agey, somewhat racist, poorly referenced work that left me wondering how anyone could possibly have mistaken this as a work of significant scholarship.

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1419618415?sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Kevin on May 31, 2008, 01:14:40 am
Greetings Great Sister Yngona!  I am Dances With Badgers, head man of the RRB (red road boys) - we are attempting to establish a 5 mile wide, open DMZ around all reservations. We have been sneaking around burning wreaths of stinkweed on the lawns of white folks in an attempt to scare them off  at least 5 miles away  from Indian land. Our Shaman, whose name I cannot disclose due to sacred vows taken by all RRB members, employs the power of the sacred white weasel. He blesses our wreaths of stinkweek and I'm here to tell you they fire up fast once he has done his thing! We are few in number but highly dedicated and disciplined so please send us your prayers! I believe your own sacred ways will attune you to any member of the RRB you happen to encounter, we go around in plain clothes except when on raids, so all you have to do to identify one of the RRBs is to pat your heart twice and make some comment about badgers. Any RRB member will be able that way to sense  your power is genuine and you will have a friend on the spot! Aho! I have spoken!
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Mabonwy on January 25, 2009, 05:45:30 am
Victor Anderson claimed he was taught by a group of people called the "Harpy Coven" who lived in Oregon in the 1930's.  Those folks were from Kentucky and Tennessee, and evidently were familiar with both the folk beliefs and practices of the region and a strain of occult practice.

Those people did exist; their names are on the census.   Furthermore, there are a lot of things embedded in Feri practice which aren't widely known or available in books, but which are known to *me* because I know a fair amount about Southern folk magic through my own family and also through knowing practitioners.   There's also a core of practice which is distinctly different from Wicca or anything else; the similarities are all things which were sort of grafted on later.  We do KNOW what was grafted on, and by whom.   A combination of these and other factors leads me to believe that the core of Feri is indeed pre-Gardnerian, rooted in Southern folk beliefs via the Harpy Coven, and distinct from the Brit-Trad-influenced strains of neo-Paganism.   Actually, I think that should be pretty obvious to anyone who actually knew much about Feri, and had enough background to know what they were looking at...as opposed to reading an article about it somewhere.

Still, I would have to write a book to explain why I think so in detail.  (One of these days, I might.)  And none of this is terribly important unless you want to get into Feri yourself, really.  The only point I was trying to make is that trad witchcraft has its own methods for evaluating who is or isn't legit.   And that anyone who dismisses trad witchcraft out of hand, but is claiming to want to expose Pagan frauds,  is cutting him or herself off at the knees.   That, or apparently has some kind of reconstructionist axe to grind.   I have philosophical and logical objections to reconstructionism, but at least I don't try to pretend that the people who want to do that are automatically fakers.
Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: londonsurrealist on March 05, 2013, 08:06:04 pm
Hello there

"Hi wyldwych. From what you describe UAOD may have started from noble intentions, but at least in part it sure doesn't have them now. In that it reminds me of a site called Metista.com, run by a guy (now passed on) calling himself Bearwalker Wilson. Wilson made a lot of noble sounding declarations against selling ceremonies and calling for respect for Natives. And then he turned around and sold "his own" version of Native ceremonies."

I realise that this is an old thread and an old comment, however I would like to state very directly and emphatically that the above statement by Educatedindian is wholly inaccurate. I studied with Joe for several years until his death and in that time he never, I repeat NEVER
a. Performed Native ceremonies
b. Sold his own version of Native ceremonies.
c. Sold anything except a self-published book and some dolls.

What is more, he was insistent upon trying to find one's own spirituality through understanding one's own culture. The idea behind Metista was that by coming to terms with the mongrel nature of most culture and with what we actually own we can discover our own spirituality. Many things can become inspirations, including Native American beliefs and practices, but  one would not follow the Native American path unless one had the right as that would be cultural theft.

Joe disbanded Metista as it ceased to entirely reflect his ideas and set up Toteg Tribe. Toteg was an acronyn of Temple Of The Elder Gods, not some kind of fake "Indian" word. This is explained more fully on the Toteg Tribe website:
 http://www.toteg.org/

I can state absolutely that any claim that Joe was selling any teachings (Native or otherwise) is utterly untrue and that any person who claims otherwise is either ignorant and responding to rumours or, simply a liar. In the seven years I knew him, he never asked for money for anything. He did sell me a few items that he had made, but even then he sent me a present that cost him more than the things I bought off him. Others can verify this.

If anybody is interested in this matter they can see for themselves the outline of the Toteg Tribe teachings at the above URL and if they have any questions they can ask me.

Stuart Inman




Title: Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 06, 2013, 01:17:24 am
Hello Mr. Inman,

I don't know much about this group, but looking at their website, it's not only their use of the terms "tribe," "clan," and "American shamanism" that would lead to some suspicions about them. There's also text like this:

http://www.mountainshadowstoteg.org/

"We know that all things are children of the Earth Mother and Sky Father, and thus we are all related."
and
"In 2011 we will begin a series of workshops and rituals... Our initial offering for this series is "American Shamanism: The History and Ethos of Toteg Tribe".... Our second workshop, "Lore of the Talking Stick""

While they also state elsewhere on the page that they are not Native, it's obvious where they're taking some of these ideas from. And if they are using Harner's methods of Shamanism, those are taken from anthroplogical accounts (and fantasies) of Native American practices, albeit with a Siberian misnomer.

Again, I know very little about this "Toteg" group, but from looking at their pages, what they say about themselves does raise some red flags about misappropriation concerns.

(note - this thread very quickly turned into something that doesn't really fit in non-frauds. moving to etc.)
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on March 06, 2013, 03:47:28 am
Joe may not have sold ceremony for actual cash. But he sold a bill of goods. "Selling" can occur in many forms.

Honestly, white folks are gonna feel like they are doing something Native when they are practicing what he preached. We all might deny this, but why else would we be doing Tribes and Shamanism and Talking Stick Consecrations etc etc? Isn't this ultimately playing Indian?

Presentations on "Land Spirits of Utah"? Really? http://eventful.com/saltlakecity_ut/events/mountainshadows-clan-toteg-tribe-presents-l-/E0-001-036958044-2 (http://eventful.com/saltlakecity_ut/events/mountainshadows-clan-toteg-tribe-presents-l-/E0-001-036958044-2)

Quote
I confess, I got Inspiration from an Indian. I followed an Indian "truth" without taking from an Indian culture. In my case, it led me back to a "truth" of my own heritage, that I already knew, but in the

know-it-all impetuousness of youth had chosen to ignore. It may lead others in different places, I don't know. I continue to follow those teachings to this day.


http://www.toteg.org/naturespirit.htm (http://www.toteg.org/naturespirit.htm)

Quote
If you have a call to shamanize the path will be very difficult. Modern American society is not set up in such a way that we still have cultures or subcultures in which shamanism is recognized and practiced.

We really have no foundation in which shamanism is or can be relatively easily understood. As Tori remarked to me this morning, what we in Metista are doing is NOT training shamans. It appears that what we,

along with Michael Harner, Sandra Ingerman, and several others (including the general Neo-Pagan movement I suppose), ARE doing is preparing society so that in another five or six generations it really can

accept those in the role of a true "shaman."

Quote from So You Wannabe A Shaman, Huh?  http://www.scribd.com/doc/76580442/Joseph-Bear-Walker-Wilson-So-You-Wannabe-a-Shaman (http://www.scribd.com/doc/76580442/Joseph-Bear-Walker-Wilson-So-You-Wannabe-a-Shaman)
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: educatedindian on March 07, 2013, 01:44:15 pm
Mr Inman, I can categorically state you don't seem to have known Wilson as well as you think you did. I personally saw his site offering the sale of ceremonies. This was towards the very end, some years ago, and not for a long period of time. It was quite striking to me, coming after years of denouncing pay to pray.

This may be what you and Wilson himself are referring to when you say he became disillusioned with what he founded. Wilson does seem to have been a PODIA hoping to connect with his ancestry and finally realized there would always be Nuage types seeking any opening to exploit. So finally he turned from Metista, based largely on Harner and other core shame on exploiters, to his attempt at Euro witchcraft traditions.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on March 07, 2013, 03:40:02 pm
I never met Joe but I talked with him a few times online. He had an online chat room. Joe had become a student of Cat Yronwode and I believe was eventually a retailer for her hoodoo rootworker products.

I was interested in his work but honestly couldn't get past the fact that "Toteg" in my mind sounds like "toe tag" as in a morgue item to me. I also was finally getting free of the Nuage.

Quote
Bearwalker's Shamanic Services

      In spite of what you may have heard elsewhere, "shamanism" is not the same thing as Native American spirituality. The word "shaman" actually comes from Siberia, and its use to describe Native American holy men and women can be offensive to traditional Natives and their Elders - please be considerate of their wishes. I am not an Indian, and I do not practice Native American forms of spirituality.

     I am a shamanist. Traditionally the shaman's service to community is to: Find lost objects or things, locate and attract game, divine what future events are in store for individuals or the group as a whole, control the weather, guide the souls of the dead to their proper home, drive away evil spirits or ghosts, change luck from bad to good, overcome and destroy evil magicians or evil spirits who are attacking individuals or the group when needed, diagnose the causes of problems and prescribe solutions, and yes, even healing.

     Needless to say all of those things are not needed in our modern society. What I can do is perform readings or divinations for you, and offer advice based upon what those divinations show, and therefore provide insight and guidance into such areas of your life as love and sex, health, financial security, and overall happiness and contentment.

      I do daily prayers and meditations and will be pleased to add your name to those I mention in these prayers without charge.

     If you have a more specific need or would like a little more personal focus, I'll be happy to add a candle burning working for you. I ask for $5 to do this.

     I can also perform shamanic readings or divinations for you, and offer advice based upon what those divinations show. This can provide insight and guidance into such areas of your life as love and sex, health, finances, and overall happiness and contentment. I use a variety of things when I do divination readings, as the situation may be called for. Most readings take 48 to 72 hours to complete.

      I always start by sleeping on the problem and getting information from my spirits in dreamtime, and then doing a journey for additional help and clarification. After that I will use such tecniques as casting bones, stones, or seeds on my drumhead, candle wax, cards, or my crystal ball depending upon what my spirits indicate the situation calls for. These are different from ordinary readings in that I will also suggest a minor spell or magical working that you can do to help your situation. I ask for $40 for this service.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020606005131/http://www.josephbwilson.com/services.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20020606005131/http://www.josephbwilson.com/services.html)
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on March 07, 2013, 03:56:43 pm
Required reading for Toteg's Visar Guild: http://www.toteg.org/amazonvisarreading.htm (http://www.toteg.org/amazonvisarreading.htm)

Harner's book The Way of the Shaman is required reading.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on March 07, 2013, 04:15:24 pm
Bio for Stuart Inman:

Quote
Stuart Inman studied with Joseph Bearwalker Wilson for seven years and is a Doyen of Toteg Tribe and one of three Virtue Holders of the 1734 Tradition of Witchcraft. He is an initiate of both Alexandrian and Gardnerian Wicca and has studied Tibetan Buddhism. He has also been involved with the International Surrealist Movement for over twenty years, has done original research into lesser known aspects of surrealism and is a founder member of the London Surrealist Group.

http://fulgur.co.uk/abraxas/abraxas-issue-one-contributors/ (http://fulgur.co.uk/abraxas/abraxas-issue-one-contributors/)

Quote
Doyen: A person who is the senior member and spiritual leader of the Tribe or of a Clan of the Tribe.


http://www.shadowdance.org/toteg/glossary.html (http://www.shadowdance.org/toteg/glossary.html)
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 07, 2013, 06:48:37 pm
Required reading for Toteg's Visar Guild: http://www.toteg.org/amazonvisarreading.htm (http://www.toteg.org/amazonvisarreading.htm)

Harner's book The Way of the Shaman is required reading.

As are books by fraud Tom Brown Jr, who sells people wilderness training that includes fraudulent Apache teachings, that Brown claims to have received from a man who either never existed, or certainly wasn't Apache. Most likely Brown read books by ET Seton and Karl May and made it all up. Which can seriously endanger people, especially when you're claiming to teach them how to survive in the wilderness. You do not want a liar/fantasist teaching you survival skills. People wind up dead that way.

""The Tracker" is the introduction to Tom Brown and Grandfather. The story begins with the chance meeting between an ancient Apache and a New Jersey boy. It tells of an incredible apprenticeship in the Wild, learning all that is hidden from modern man... "The first track is the end of a string. At the far end, a being is moving; a mystery, dropping a hint about itself every so many feet, telling you more about itself until you can almost see it, even before you come to it.""

Thread on Tom Brown: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=269.0

Searching on his name from the main page will bring up numerous threads that mention Brown. Many frauds and exploiters cite him as a teacher.

There are a number of modern Pagans who really should know better, some of whom even claim to be against misappropriation, who admire Brown and incorporate his pretendian b.s. into their philosophies and ritual work. They love Brown because it's the classic White Saviour motif: "I met an old NDN. He's dead now. But he taught me his ceremonies [that just happen to look exactly like Harner's b.s.] and asked me to share them with the world, because the time has come to share all knowledge, the more seekrit the better. He had a vision about me and told me I was fulfilling prophecy. Did I mention he's dead now and I never met anyone else who knew him? Oh, and I'm not claiming to be NDN. I really respect NDNs and their right to self-determination. I met an NDN once. I'm just being a good supporter by doing what the [made up] Speshul NDN, who no one else had the privilege of knowing, told me to do. So I am helping those people. I take Mastercard and Visa and Paypal, by the way. Aho."
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on March 07, 2013, 08:35:28 pm
Quote
They love Brown because it's the classic White Saviour motif: "I met an old NDN. He's dead now. But he taught me his ceremonies [that just happen to look exactly like Harner's b.s.] and asked me to share them with the world, because the time has come to share all knowledge, the more seekrit the better. He had a vision about me and told me I was fulfilling prophecy. Did I mention he's dead now and I never met anyone else who knew him? Oh, and I'm not claiming to be NDN. I really respect NDNs and their right to self-determination. I met an NDN once. I'm just being a good supporter by doing what the [made up] Speshul NDN, who no one else had the privilege of knowing, told me to do. So I am helping those people. I take Mastercard and Visa and Paypal, by the way. Aho."

I owe you and others here a huge debt of gratitude. So much of what I experienced in 20 + years of my life are discussed and clarified here in these forums. I'm learning so much, thank you all.

This classic White savior motif I saw played out with pseudo-Hinduism too.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 07, 2013, 09:27:58 pm
Thank you for all the excellent work you've been doing!
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Phillip63 on March 08, 2013, 01:21:04 pm
I've been away a long time, but I'm glad to see people tackled this topic, hard.  I laughed out loud when Yngona Desmond got exactly what she deserved.

Meanwhile it seems the thread I posted last summer about "shaman" Raven Kaldera still gets examined.  I am so grateful that this board exists and you're so diligent about maintaining it.  I had such aggressive activity on my dinky little Weebly site I was obliged to discontinue it and now one of the appropriators took the name and made it into a one-page insult.  Which is fine--I keep on calling out appropriators and engaging them in other venues.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on April 16, 2013, 07:14:00 pm
Quote
About Shamanic Work & Healing With Live Wood:
Guided meditations, practical healing work with LiveWood, stories about ancient folklore in Britain around 10000 BC and connecting to wild and tamed dryads

Quote
The Dusty Millers are ShaMan of a tribe that lived just after the last ice age in Britain in an area nowadays known as Kent. They roamed the forests 'the weald of Kent', Andreds Wood in a radius of 25 miles having summer camps in the Medway area and winter camps more to the south in Canterbury. They know this area like the back of their hands.

They worship the Great Mother Goddess (like Venus of Willendorf) and their tribe was and is matriarchal. The Dusties (ShaMan) of the tribe were the spiritual guides who not only looked after the pigs but also after the well-being of every single member of the tribe.

http://www.humaniversity.com/calendar/2012-04/shamanic-work-and-healing-with-live-wood (http://www.humaniversity.com/calendar/2012-04/shamanic-work-and-healing-with-live-wood)

Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: catbus on June 13, 2013, 04:37:18 pm
Stepping into this discussion late, but I think a pagan version of NAFPS would be great.

Personally, I have met a number of pagans, some who were supposedly leaders of covens, some who were 'lone practitioners', and one a know-it-all anthro professor. And every singly one of them had absolutely no interest or concern in historical accuracy. The hippy ideal is that 'the world of spirituality everything is fair game'. The anthros are the worst, because they read and misunderstand traditions all over the world, and then they claim things are universal and can therefore be called pagan/wiccan/druid whatever the fluff. When it's really just lost white people playing reconstructionist roleplays that likely have not the slightest resemblance to anything from ancient europe.

So if there is a way to educate these people, or at least make an attempt, that would be good. But the appropriationistic and offensive pagans are never going to stop. They are so arrogant they think they have taken the world's indigenous traditions 'further' than any traditional culture. On top of that, every single one of them are sexually-obsessed and power-hungry, the type of people that are dangerous and egotistic.

One professor admitted to me that pretty much everything in pagan/wiccan garbage is either stoled or made up. for example, he told me that Aleister Crowley's bastardization and theft of Daoist concepts he learned in China, were changed and made into a foundational aspect of the modern wicca/pagan. I need to research into this. if they are ripping off Daoists and most of their community is unaware of it, I feel I'll need to write something to post online ripping all the pagans and wiccans to pieces for them to read. All them clowns need to leave Asian traditions alone, they just end up misunderstanding it and then teaching people these watered-down new-age fake shaman traditions out of it.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 13, 2013, 07:38:06 pm
I would personally say, "inaccurate historical re-enactment" rather than "reconstructionist." Though there are plenty of people who lie about what they are doing, and use terms that are not accurate for what they are doing, the general consensus is that it's only religious reconstruction if it is accurate, or as accurate as humanly possible if a revived practice is too old to have anyone in living memory to help with the revival. Lots of cultures, including some who don't admit it, have had to do a certain amount of careful reconstruction based on old recordings of songs, stories and interviews with Elders, recorded before they died and took a wealth of information out with them. In some cultures even the language has needed to be reconstructed, and it's a serious scholarly and spiritual discipline.

Most Neopagans are flat-out allergic to that level of committment. I agree that there are a lot of Neopagans who think going to the Renaissance Faire is a spiritual experience. The ren faire is not religious reconstructionism, however;  it's a loose re-enactment, often as not anachronistic or even based on fantasy, and primarily for fun and profit. 

Crowley and the Golden Dawn definitely influenced Gerald Gardner's creation/collage of Wicca, which in turn became the template for most of the Neopagan community. Gardner misappropriated a lot of things from various Asian and South Asian Peoples (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3687.msg31022#msg31022), so I wouldn't be surprised if out of context bits of Daoism are in there as well. As white Englishmen, directly involved in and benefiting from colonialism, I think it's clear both Gardner and Crowley saw it as their inherent right, and even duty, to misappropriate from, and dominate, other cultures.  In their work they both demonstrated repeatedly that they were completely comfortable with dabbling in what they believed to be another culture's sacred rites and beliefs, then declaring themselves the supreme experts of things they had barely glimpsed.

Sadly, that trend has continued with the heavy levels of misappropriation in the mainstream of the contemporary Pagan community, which in so many ways can no longer be distinguised from the Nuage communities. It's so bad that white folks like me, who are involved in our ancestral ways, don't go near the mainstream of that community anymore. But I went into most of that upthread already.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: catbus on June 22, 2013, 08:12:03 pm
Quote
I would personally say, "inaccurate historical re-enactment" rather than "reconstructionist."

Crowley and the Golden Dawn definitely influenced Gerald Gardner's creation/collage of Wicca, which in turn became the template for most of the Neopagan community. Gardner misappropriated a lot of things from various Asian and South Asian Peoples (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3687.msg31022#msg31022), so I wouldn't be surprised if out of context bits of Daoism are in there as well. As white Englishmen, directly involved in and benefiting from colonialism, I think it's clear both Gardner and Crowley saw it as their inherent right, and even duty, to misappropriate from, and dominate, other cultures.  In their work they both demonstrated repeatedly that they were completely comfortable with dabbling in what they believed to be another culture's sacred rites and beliefs, then declaring themselves the supreme experts of things they had barely glimpsed.

Sadly, that trend has continued with the heavy levels of misappropriation in the mainstream of the contemporary Pagan community, which in so many ways can no longer be distinguised from the Nuage communities. It's so bad that white folks like me, who are involved in our ancestral ways, don't go near the mainstream of that community anymore. But I went into most of that upthread already.


Thank you for clarifying about this. Do you perhaps know some resources that may tell which lineages of Dao/Tao was used by people such as Crowley? Other useful information could be things where he studied, how long he studied, etc. If you could point me in the right direction, that would be great.

The problem with what people are doing, by mixing up a little bit from here and there, is they twist the meanings before ever even experiencing them through true living and cultivation of those teachings. So when they claim to be using those teachings, or to have 'evolved' them to a better and more effective system, it is rather arrogant and ethnocentric to put it lightly.

Quote

I would personally say, "inaccurate historical re-enactment" rather than "reconstructionist." Though there are plenty of people who lie about what they are doing, and use terms that are not accurate for what they are doing, the general consensus is that it's only religious reconstruction if it is accurate, or as accurate as humanly possible if a revived practice is too old to have anyone in living memory to help with the revival. Lots of cultures, including some who don't admit it, have had to do a certain amount of careful reconstruction based on old recordings of songs, stories and interviews with Elders, recorded before they died and took a wealth of information out with them. In some cultures even the language has needed to be reconstructed, and it's a serious scholarly and spiritual discipline.

Yes, this has often had to be done with cultures who have been colonized, facing rapid extinction especially.
I personally have a problem with it when they are not up front about it though. Often things get misinterpreted, lost etc, and it is really misleading unless people are honest and entirely upfront that what they are doing is reconstructed, and what it is reconstructed from.

I will give an example to show what I mean:
There are many Korean traditions that had to be preserved after the holocaust known as the japanese invasion, because during the occupation all form of cultural expression were outlawed. Some of the Daoist-healing and Martial arts lineages were preserved because there were only one or two surviving old masters who had studied when they were children before the occupation. This old knowledge/experience was combined w/ any other info passed down, info gleaned from paintings, writings, anything else passed down, etc, and the younger masters/scholars worked to preserve the traditions so the people could have them in the culture again.

But generally in such a case, the people are honest about it the traditions being nearly lost and having to 'reconstruct' some aspects'. There is nothing wrong with this ofcourse, it is saving culture for the benefit of the culture and the people to learn/practice/embrace.

Ok, but then sometimes some arrogant bogus knowitall comes along, with not alot of knowledge or experience, and claims to have preserved ancient cutural traditions. often these people are amateur reconstructionist who are NOT honest about their 're-enactment' or attempt at reconstructionism. Anyways, one such person was Ilchi Lee, the founder of 'Dahn Yoga', 'Dahn Daoist Healing Center', 'Dahn Tai Chi', etc. It was all bogus but they fooled so many people, had centers all over the place. And a few years bac, some lady died at one of there centers in Arizona. They have hurt and traumatized a ton of other gullible students and patients also.

Similar examples of such fake, harmful, dangerous, and offensive re-enactment can be found in most traditions, whether it be the some fake shamans here from the states, or some fake masters/gurus from China/Tibet/India. There are always fake lineages popping up, and half the time the leaders might actually think they are doing something real, because they don't realize how far-fetched there secret attempts at reconstructionism are.

The sad thing is how people keep getting hurt by such frauds, thinking it's the real-deal cultural tradition. They don't do their research to find out if it's just more silly re-enactment (aka failed reconstructionism).

Furthermore, it seems to me that an individual practitioner, scholar, or cannot truly 'reconstruct' a culture or cultural tradition. I would think that only a people/coherent-community must do it for it to become something they can rightfully call a revived and authentic cultural tradition. Such as with Korean people working together to revive certain cultural traditions that were nearly lost. That is a true examples of honest and authentic reconstructionism.

So maybe when cross-examining people should ask themselves "who is making these claims of recovering cultural traditions? Is it is just one supposed master, guru, or one supposed shaman guy? Or is it a real people and real culture concerned with honoring the ways of their ancestors?"
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 22, 2013, 08:59:50 pm
I really don't know that much about Crowley's background. I doubt he learned anything legitimate. Most people couldn't stand him when he was alive; he tried to join lots of occult groups who wouldn't accept him as a member. Or he'd be accepted and then kicked out.  I don't think any legitimate spiritual leader would have tolerated him.  I've always found him scummy and repellent. I get such bad vibes from his photos, writings, artwork, etc. that I don't even allow them in my house.

You're right: The first rule of reconstructionism is honesty. This means citing one's sources, and being impeccable about indicating what is cultural continuity and what has had to be carefully reconstructed from historical record. It can't be done in isolation. Like any viable lifeway, people have to have the checks and balances of community and elders, otherwise it's too easy for people to get caught up in illusion or self-aggrandizement.

Most Pagans do not want those checks and balances. About five years ago there was a major split in some of the reconstructionist communities when we found out that some were wanting to use the word while not upholding the principles. It's still happening. We've had people go online and do huge rants about reconstructionism without having a clue what it means in the context of our current communities.  Or worse, sometimes they do know but they have some weird agenda - either that of trying to claim no reconstruction has been needed when they are using reconstructed materials themselves, or of ignorantly proclaiming there's not enough that survives to even attempt it. It usually comes down to people not knowing the cultural communities or the field.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on June 26, 2013, 08:48:23 pm
Quote
The teacher, Gudni Gudnason, is a Celtic Medicine Man. Gudni learned this Magick from some very special ladies during his training at the British Mystery School. These ladies were genuine Wicca Priestesses. Gudni's intent is to pass this Female knowledge on to you.

http://www.thelivinglightfoundation.com/classesSpells.php (http://www.thelivinglightfoundation.com/classesSpells.php)

This is on his dedicated thread on Frauds, also want to stash it here, as a perfect example of weirdness.

"Celtic Medicine Man"?
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 26, 2013, 09:02:25 pm
As I posted in the other thread:

Wicca isn't Celtic. Celts don't/didn't have "Medicine Men." "Magick" is a Crowley spelling, again, with nothing to do with anything Celtic.

And if this wasn't already screaming fraud, a big, gigantic red flag is any man who says he's going to teach "fertility Magick" to women.

Bad, bad scene.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on June 26, 2013, 09:14:32 pm
One of Gudni's top people is Verla Wade, she says she "serves as a Celtic Shaman".

http://www.universalkabbalah.net/VerlaWade (http://www.universalkabbalah.net/VerlaWade)

She teaches "dragon magick" http://www.thelivinglightfoundation.com/classesdragonmagick.php (http://www.thelivinglightfoundation.com/classesdragonmagick.php)

Along with "Isis healing", "core gene replacement", along with other weirdness.

Gudni passing on "this Female knowledge" - so creepy.



Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 26, 2013, 09:19:49 pm
Again, anyone calling themselves a "Celtic Shaman" is a fraud.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on June 26, 2013, 10:03:29 pm
Quote
Again, anyone calling themselves a "Celtic Shaman" is a fraud.

Web searching on "Celtic Shaman" brings up lots of frauds. Including Society of Celtic Shamans:

Quote
Aren't you really just 'ripping off' Native American traditions when you say you teach a shamanic path?

It is true that when one hears the word shaman the picture most usually called to mind is that of an elderly First Nations American man wearing a mask and beating a drum. In reality, most First Nations 'shamans' do not use that term at all. They prefer the term Medicine Man or Medicine Woman. Shamanism is practised all over the world and no one clan or tribe, people or nation can claim to have the exclusive right to practice and teach the shamanic traditions. But it is important that each clan and tribe, each nation and people teach their own traditions

http://www.faeryshaman.org/shamanfaq.htm#sha1 (http://www.faeryshaman.org/shamanfaq.htm#sha1)

Quote
Shamans with Celtic ancestors are Celtic shamans. There never were any people who called themselves Celts. The word Celtic describes both a culture and a group of languages. In Western Europe, the countries we now call France, Spain, Switzerland, and Belgium were all Celtic speaking areas in the 1st century BCE, as were Wales, Britain, Scotland, The Isle of Man, Ireland, the Orkneys and the Channel Islands. The entire west was Celtic. Therefore, anyone who is descended from people who lived in these regions has Celtic ancestors. Shamans with Celtic ancestors are Celtic shamans. We must, however, remember that the terms Celtic Shaman and Faery Shaman are very new. They were both coined within the last ten or fifteen years as the need to describe the Western European path was necessary. No one can claim to be descended from an unbroken line of Celtic Shamans stretching back to the builders of Stonehenge.
http://www.bodymindspiritonline.com/bodymindspirit/edition13/22_profile_tira.htm (http://www.bodymindspiritonline.com/bodymindspirit/edition13/22_profile_tira.htm)



Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 27, 2013, 06:28:50 pm
The term "Celtic Shaman" was coined out of the white guilt of a bunch of people practicing Harner "core shamanism" who wanted to pretend they had an ethnic tradition. They do extreme violence to the surviving ways of the six Celtic nations as well as the Native ways Harner harmed when he threw them in his anthro blender and pressed "liquify."

"Faery Shaman" (under various spellings) was first used by a Wiccan in California in the sixties or seventies. I'm not sure what he was doing, but he was also a folk singer. "Fairy" is an English term, misapplied to some of the spirits in other cultures, usually with the denigration of powerful (and large) spirits to something akin to tiny Victorian flower fairies or twee little people. (There are some spirits who are little, but most others are larger than humans.) There is a living tradition of interaction with the spirit world that is sometimes translated into English as "The Fairy Faith" (not giving the Gaelic here, as there are data miners reading), but that is about simple offerings and customs and has nothing to do with "journeying" or pretendian ceremonies.

Most of them think any white person can be called "Celtic" when actually the only surviving Celtic cultures are those who still speak a Celtic language (Gàidhlig, Gaeilge, Gaelg, Cymraeg, Kernewek, or Brezhoneg) and in order to understand the cultural survivals, you need the language, and to take the spiritual ways on their own terms, without trying to shove them into a pretendian-shaped mold.

Painting knotwork or spirals on a stolen Plains-style drum and howling vocables is no more Celtic than Native. These types only get away with what they do because so many people are ignorant about the living cultures.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on June 27, 2013, 08:50:44 pm
Many of my ancestors are from the Shetland Islands. Some people who also have ancestors from the Shetland Islands, who don't know better, would think Shetland Islands = Scotland = Gaelic speaking = Celtic Pagan = we can all be Celtic Shamans.

They would (and do) point to the yearly fire festival as "proof" of a supposed certain type of pagan heritage. But that is inaccurate.

This from Paganism: A Very Short Introduction, by Owen Davies (who also writes of how "fakelore" becomes folklore):

Quote
The most well-known case of the re-invention of a tradition to give it a pagan heritage is the Up-helly-aa festival in Lerwick, capital of the Shetland Islands, which today attracts thousands of visitors in January. It is likely that simple winter festivities involving music and dancing had carried on in Lerwick for centuries, just as they had elsewhere across Europe, but many of the 'ancient' aspects of Up-helly-aa are the products of 19th-century developments. The burning of tar barrels seems to have introduced in the early 19th century. Concerns over public safety caused by this practice, and the drunkeness that accompanied such celebrations, led in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to a complete re-invention of the festival inspired by the Shetland's Viking heritage. A 'pagan' Viking pageant was devised involving an ordered torch-lit procession by hundreds of men singing an 'ancient' song written in 1897, and the spectacular burning of a Viking-style longship as a sacrifice. Local socialists and the temperance movement also influenced the development of the pageant. It was all a long way from Norse pre-Christian religion.

I didn't grow up in the islands, nor did my parents. I'm not there now. Can't speak for people who live there, nor would I ever do "spiritual tourism" and plant crystals/do ceremonies there. I can't sidestep cultural appropriation issues by claiming that we are all the same, that one seafaring culture is just like the other.

So wearing a kilt, a Thor's hammer necklace, calling myself a Pict, and speaking a little Gaelic so I can show up at events with a knotwork painted drum like you write of, burn sage, and sing about The Green Man - this would all be so very very wrong.

Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Epiphany on June 27, 2013, 09:00:22 pm
Quote
Most of them think any white person can be called "Celtic" when actually the only surviving Celtic cultures are those who still speak a Celtic language (Gàidhlig, Gaeilge, Gaelg, Cymraeg, Kernewek, or Brezhoneg) and in order to understand the cultural survivals, you need the language, and to take the spiritual ways on their own terms, without trying to shove them into a pretendian-shaped mold.


My use of bolding there, such an important point.

Language, spiritual ways on their own terms = needing to do lots of reading and learning, no throwing things into the blender and no assuming things are all the same, no looking for ways to prove preconceived notions.

I think it is important to take our time and also deal with our own discomfort, be willing to admit that sometimes we really just don't know. We could be wrong. We might not have a clue.

Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 28, 2013, 07:32:00 pm
Recently, living here on Turtle Island, I encountered a white pretendian appropriator who had her DNA done. She says she found out she has extremely distant heritage from some of the mainland European Celtic tribes (who no longer exist as a culture, and the remnants of which only exist via what was assimilated by the cultures in the surviving Celtic Nations, after the mainland tribes migrated there). So now, with no connection to any living culture, and no knowledge of European history, she's claiming to be "Indigenous Celtic." She knows nothing of the cultures and is just a Wiccan/pretendian/nuage mishmash. It's ludicrous, but some of the people attempting to colonize Indigenous identities this way are really crazy and aggressive. Some have even attempted to colonize interfaith events as Indigenous representatives.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: catbus on June 29, 2013, 03:35:37 pm
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Recently, living here on Turtle Island, I encountered a white pretendian appropriator who had her DNA done. She says she found out she has extremely distant heritage from some of the mainland European Celtic tribes (who no longer exist as a culture, and the remnants of which only exist via what was assimilated by the cultures in the surviving Celtic Nations, after the mainland tribes migrated there). So now, with no connection to any living culture, and no knowledge of European history, she's claiming to be "Indigenous Celtic." She knows nothing of the cultures and is just a Wiccan/pretendian/nuage mishmash. It's ludicrous, but some of the people attempting to colonize Indigenous identities this way are really crazy and aggressive. Some have even attempted to colonize interfaith events as Indigenous representatives.

It's funny how these folks keep always trying to turn their lost ancient traditions which they know not much about for sure, because there was no surviving lineage whatsoever, into something that resembles NDN traditions. Or they mix it w/ Harnerism ofcourse, and claimt hat Celtic, NDN, Shamanism, the traditions are all the same so they can piece it together.

Maybe they should just accept, that there traditions are gone, white people killed off their 'earth-based' traditions, did not allow any lineages to survive, and no such communities or lineages of Elders truly survive to this day.

One cannot even call a scholar or reconstructionist a true pagan. There are plenty of douchebags who have learned Gaelic fluently as they can, have studied anthropolological writing and folklore extensively, yet they still steal from other traditions and declare it's ok. Half of these white devils also seem to have a strong tendency to identify themselves as 'hedonists' or 'hedonistic' which seems to be part of why they are so individualistic they could never have the 'checks and balances' of true elders and community. They want to 'revel in the flesh', and run around naked in the moonlight with some redheaded whore, doing some made up ceremonies and calling out to some made up gods and goddesses. That is the usual idea of being 'wiccan', or 'pagan', for most Amerikkkans who identify with that word, at least the men. The women, it is more of a way to steal indigenous-looking practices and mix it with their white-supremacist feminist movement/rhetoric.

As far as i have been taught, there is no such thing as a surviving pagan community with all its traditions in tact that managed to survive christian persecution. There seems to only be fakes like the Golden Dawn, and alot of hippies who have studied the world's traditions, then mix it up and call it pagan. And writings, etc, without any surviving lineages, are not enough for a people to reconstruct traditions which dates back all the way to pre-christian times. So let us all be skeptical of ANYTHING that anyone says is a european spiritual tradition.

Keep a healthy distrust of the 'pagan', 'wiccan' label itself when it comes to the world of spirituality, because i would guess that th number who are truly concerned with authenticity are like 1 percent, especially considering how many stupid-a***es run around calling themselves pagans and wiccans. I think that girl who probably died naked out in the forest not far from here, called herself a wiccan. When you confront the the pretendian pagans, they have mastered the political correct rhetoric, and they will act like you are 'denigrating their traditions', they will act like they are traditional Indigenous people being persecuted by racists, when it is the other way around. They are the racists, and therefore the enemies. I am beginning to study into their traditions from a scholarly standpoint, just so I can tear them devils down whenever I encounter a pagan.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 29, 2013, 09:27:27 pm
Maybe they should just accept, that there traditions are gone, white people killed off their 'earth-based' traditions, did not allow any lineages to survive, and no such communities or lineages of Elders truly survive to this day.

I think you're painting with too broad a brush here. I've posted on here a lot about how we do have surviving cultural traditions, if one is willing to take the cultures on their own terms, learn the language and music, etc. Around the turn of the last century in Scotland, and a bit later in Ireland, massive projects were undertaken to interview elders before they died and took a ton of cultural wealth with them. We have many recordings of songs and stories. These are the things that existed *alongside* Christianity. We know less about what was truly pre-Christian, as those were writings by the Romans, but when those accounts line up with the survivals, some pretty solid things can be, and have been, pieced together.

I understand your anger, as I've dealt with the eclectics and fantasists denigrating my ancestors and the surviving ways for my whole life. I deal with it every day. But I also feel like you're playing pretty fast and loose here.

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One cannot even call a scholar or reconstructionist a true pagan. There are plenty of douchebags who have learned Gaelic fluently as they can, have studied anthropolological writing and folklore extensively, yet they still steal from other traditions and declare it's ok

I'm not exactly sure what you're point is here. Real reconstructionists are firmly opposed to eclecticism and cultural appropriation. But we have no control over what people call themselves. The same people who misappropriate from, and misrepresent, NDNs also misappropriate from the ethnic cultures I am part of.

"Pagan" isn't the best word for what we do as it's been so tainted by the appropriators, nuagers, etc. But by the technical definition (from the Roman "pagani" - of the countryside - the people who held to rural "superstitions" after Christianity came to the cities) any of us doing earth-based traditions can be called that. It's not my preferred term, but it's not *technically* all that inaccurate.

With our struggle for language survival, and as language is the heart of a culture, I would never call someone who has made the effort to become fluent in Gaelic and help preserve and pass on the language a "douchebag."

The people who are misusing the word "reconstructionist" when they are actually just eclectics and fantasists are a big problem, but those are not the people who are learning the languages and learning from the elders who are native speakers, storytellers and musicians. We do have elders of a sort. It's not as structured or solid as the thriving NDN communities on this continent, but it's pretty comparable to the communities who had early contact, who have had to fight to keep and revitalize their language, and who still have some simple ceremonies but few things that are as huge and elaborate as some of the surviving ways of the people who were invaded much later.

I've said all of this up-thread, though, so I'm not sure why we have to go over this again.

Yes, people should be incredibly skeptical. And there are plenty of fantasists and liars who have tried to confuse the terminology. But until you're more familiar with the field, I'd respectfully ask you to avoid tarring everyone with the same brush until you know more about what does and doesn't survive.
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 29, 2013, 09:47:25 pm
I don't know as much about mainland Europe, but there are surviving ethnic, polytheist customs and rituals in Latvia and Lithuania, as well as in parts of Greece. I hear there are more, but I know people personally from villages in those countries where they still hold bonfires to the local deities/spirits on the festival days, and where you can buy amulets to the deities in the village marketplace. It's small, it's simple, it's rural and underground, but it's not all gone.

Gerald Gardner did great harm when he cobbled together something he partially made up and partially pilfered, because while he propagated the idea of survivals, he fed people things that were not authentic, leaving the real survivals to be ignored. When it became obvious what he'd done, some became healthily skeptical, but others swung to the other extreme and assumed nothing had survived.

The same problem exists in Wales with the work of Iolo Morgannwg, who preserved some lore, but mixed it in with things he'd made up. He helped with the revival of interest in Welsh Celtic ways, but also damaged people's ability to tell authentic survivals from his forgeries.

Finding the true ways of our paler ancestors has been hard work, but a great deal of groundwork has been laid over the past few decades and generations. Telling people that there are no authentic "European" ways is both untrue, and can also lead to Euros trying to justify being pretendians because they mistakenly believe they have inherited nothing that is their own. They may not have been born into a family that remembers and practices the older ways, but they have the birthright to find their relatives who do have viable, earth-honoring lifeways, and they have the right and responsibility to listen to their own ancestors and ancestral spirits and honor them in the old ways. 
Title: Re: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 29, 2013, 11:44:03 pm
A clarification:

they have the right and responsibility to listen to their own ancestors and ancestral spirits and honor them in the old ways. 

Uh, as long as it's not oppressive or immoral. Some of our ancestors were violent raiders, or participated in genocide, or had less-appalling but still inappropriate customs we don't want to preserve. Ancestors who did that stuff don't deserve to be honoured. I only think they should be remembered to the extent that it means learning from history so we don't repeat it.

What I'm talking about preserving are the old, earth-honoring ways that don't offend or insult the people and spirits we now live among. Things like songs and appropriate offerings, observing the holy days, maintaining shrines for the ancestors and spirits, etc.  I'm not advocating anything oppressive, even if some of the ancestors did it. I'm going to assume some common sense here...