NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: voiceOfReason on March 21, 2008, 08:41:23 pm
-
Just out of curiosity... What, exactly, is a "fake pipe carrier", and how is one to know if they are in the presence of such a creature? In addition, what difference does the "colour" of the carrier make?
If you do your research you will find that in every one of the four colours of people, pipes are traditional in spirit work, medicine, or whatever you want to call it. The First Nations people are not unique in this. Medicine men from all cultures traditionally used pipes in their ceremony.
I'm just a simple, humble person who knows his own spiritual ways... I pray to the great spirit and walk this Earth in the best way I know how and attend ceremony when it presents itself. I give my offerings to all of the people of this land, and offer my appreciation for the gifts that they give me. I have been extremely fortunate to attend sweat lodge with good people from all four directions, and the teaching I receive from this is that once the door closes, we are all the same colour. Good spirits shine through no matter what wrapping is on the outside.
These things are not about surface, they are about intention. That's what matters. And this is what every pipe responds to. The pipe feels what the carrier feels. If the pipe is shown the respect it deserves and is used in a good way, it doesn't matter who or what is carrying it. I have seen beautiful canupua in the hands of first nations people that are dead because they fill them with anger and bitterness for the white man. And I have seen simple corncob pipes in the hands of black brothers that give you no choice but to open your heart to the warmth and wonder of the great spirit. Even a simple cigarette carries power to one who's heart is truly open.
The pipe is a living, breathing thing. Whether you feel the person is "plastic" or "fake", grabbing a Canupa out of a carrier's hands shows nothing but disrespect for the pipe itself. There is a reason the pipe decided to be with that person, and if the pipe did not want to be with that person, it would not be. If you truly have respect for these ways, you would know this and you would respect it. It is not your place to question or decide for it. All you need to do is see that it is so, and receive your teachings.
In these times, Mother Earth needs all the help she can get. All she requires from you is that your heart is pure. The pipe carrier's job is HARD. If you feel anything other than appreciation when you are in the presence of a carrier, perhaps you need to ask yourself why this is so.
All my relations.
-
I may be incorrect on this issue If I am please let me know. First for many original people the use of tobacco in or out of ceremony was not an uncommon event. I understand that where tobacco was not available other substances were used. I believe ,for example, some of the plains tribes user red willow bark. The Cherokee had three pipes if I am correct. A man and a Woman each had their own pipe used as a remedy for some ailment either physical or mental. The smoking mixture was prepared by the medicine person for the particular situation. The third pipe was smoked at ceremony sometimes by all present. Here my ignorance will show. I heard or read somewhere that in the case of the Sacred C'anupa only men were to be pipe carriers am I incorrect here? As a traditional and cultural purest I do not believe that one should violate custom and culture out of one's own selfish desires. As a Christian the Pipe is not my way of worship but I will not disrespect those to whom it is as a part of their culture. Just do it in correct cultural manner. There is a command in the Bible than we are not to add or take away not a jot or tittle from the scriptures under threat of severe censure. So just as a Christian should be very careful about how he uses his ceremony so should those who worship with the Pipe. Beware those of you who corrupt what the Creator has set in motion. Stand under no trees during a thunderstorm. "LOM"
-
Just out of curiosity... What, exactly, is a "fake pipe carrier", and how is one to know if they are in the presence of such a creature? In addition, what difference does the "colour" of the carrier make?
If you do your research you will find that in every one of the four colours of people, pipes are traditional in spirit work, medicine, or whatever you want to call it. The First Nations people are not unique in this. Medicine men from all cultures traditionally used pipes in their ceremony.
I'm just a simple, humble person who knows his own spiritual ways... I pray to the great spirit and walk this Earth in the best way I know how and attend ceremony when it presents itself. I give my offerings to all of the people of this land, and offer my appreciation for the gifts that they give me. I have been extremely fortunate to attend sweat lodge with good people from all four directions, and the teaching I receive from this is that once the door closes, we are all the same colour. Good spirits shine through no matter what wrapping is on the outside.
These things are not about surface, they are about intention. That's what matters. And this is what every pipe responds to. The pipe feels what the carrier feels. If the pipe is shown the respect it deserves and is used in a good way, it doesn't matter who or what is carrying it. I have seen beautiful canupua in the hands of first nations people that are dead because they fill them with anger and bitterness for the white man. And I have seen simple corncob pipes in the hands of black brothers that give you no choice but to open your heart to the warmth and wonder of the great spirit. Even a simple cigarette carries power to one who's heart is truly open.
The pipe is a living, breathing thing. Whether you feel the person is "plastic" or "fake", grabbing a Canupa out of a carrier's hands shows nothing but disrespect for the pipe itself. There is a reason the pipe decided to be with that person, and if the pipe did not want to be with that person, it would not be. If you truly have respect for these ways, you would know this and you would respect it. It is not your place to question or decide for it. All you need to do is see that it is so, and receive your teachings.
In these times, Mother Earth needs all the help she can get. All she requires from you is that your heart is pure. The pipe carrier's job is HARD. If you feel anything other than appreciation when you are in the presence of a carrier, perhaps you need to ask yourself why this is so.
All my relations.
Well that is nice.
We have a protection order, if you want a pipe that nice but don't say
"We are all relate", Don't relate that pipe to Lakota way, our language or our culture.
Don't use our direction (each tribe has their own) don't use our colors and if i find that a person is using any of these i will takle that pipe because it is my right.
No you have no right! you have no say! and you are not sacred,
NO non Indians.
I know I know it is white privledge you take and take and take with no right to.
-
I may be incorrect on this issue If I am please let me know. First for many original people the use of tobacco in or out of ceremony was not an uncommon event. I understand that where tobacco was not available other substances were used. I believe ,for example, some of the plains tribes user red willow bark. The Cherokee had three pipes if I am correct. A man and a Woman each had their own pipe used as a remedy for some ailment either physical or mental. The smoking mixture was prepared by the medicine person for the particular situation. The third pipe was smoked at ceremony sometimes by all present. Here my ignorance will show. I heard or read somewhere that in the case of the Sacred C'anupa only men were to be pipe carriers am I incorrect here? As a traditional and cultural purest I do not believe that one should violate custom and culture out of one's own selfish desires. As a Christian the Pipe is not my way of worship but I will not disrespect those to whom it is as a part of their culture. Just do it in correct cultural manner. There is a command in the Bible than we are not to add or take away not a jot or tittle from the scriptures under threat of severe censure. So just as a Christian should be very careful about how he uses his ceremony so should those who worship with the Pipe. Beware those of you who corrupt what the Creator has set in motion. Stand under no trees during a thunderstorm. "LOM"
The Pipe carrier are the men, there is a few who are real pipe carriers,
The women have their own pipe for prayer. Two different things
-
Just out of curiosity... What, exactly, is a "fake pipe carrier",
It is someone who is not authorized by the traditional Lakota elders to do pipe ceremony. If you were a real pipe carrier, or had met any, you would know what this meant.
If you do your research you will find that in every one of the four colours of people, pipes are traditional in spirit work, medicine, or whatever you want to call it.
You are mistaken. You are attempting to use Lakota terms and symbols, not "universal" ones. You probably have just been exposed to people who are not Lakota and don't know what they're talking about. Now is your chance to learn how to not be offensive.
You need to realize that there are people here who don't need to "do research" to find out what Lakota traditions are, as they are Lakota, such as Earth, who has responded in this thread. For people here, traditional ways are not about the Internet and books, they are real, living traditions, maintained by actual communities of Indigenous people. The "validity" of non-NDN people who want to use NDN ceremonies is not up for debate. The purpose of this site is to fight that abuse.
I suggest you read the introductory posts in the threads here, and documents and sites like these: Protection of Ceremonies (a statement from Lakota elders) http://www.123hjemmeside.dk/indianerforedrag/5945831
http://www.geocities.com/ourredearth/declaration.html
-
Earth wrote "The Pipe carrier are the men, there is a few who are real pipe carriers,
The women have their own pipe for prayer. Two different things "
Thanks Earth I understand "LOM"
-
I was in a hurry before I am sorry
The men who become the Pipe Carriers have many stages
they have to do before they are given the privledge. They must
live their lives for the people and be at their call at all times.
Women do not do this they have a prayer pipe which they
can pray with for their family.
The men pray for the people and women pray for their families.
In a camp you would have only a couple of pipe carriers.
If you have a pipe does not give you the right to be pipe carrier, only
the Native Spiritual men can give you this right after you complete many
years of rituals.
No white/Black/Yellow person can be a pipe carrier.
Plus many tribal people have pipes but being a pipe carriers
is a Lakota/Dakota/Nakota traditon.
-
Earth; No problem I do understand. It is the Pipe carrier's responsibility to care for the people. They have to live a clean pure life both physically as well as spiritual. They can let no corruption come into their life. I have met many spiritual men and women over my life time I have found the they all have these same things in common. The most important factor of all of them is that they have a one on one on going personal relationship with the Creator. "LOM"
-
My Elders who are NDN, My relatives who are NDN, have all been blessed by the Sacred Ways, they always say "It is difficult to be NDN, there is much we must do, all these ways must be authorized by the Medicinemen, the Elders of the Tribe and that person who takes on these responsibilities, must know and speak the Language. Those who carry these spiritual responsibilites must FAST (no food, no water, no sleep and continious prayer to the Creator) all the time, being place on a FAST by the Medicinemen through ceremony.....
Those who imitate the ways and take shortcuts are not connected to the Ways.
Those who are not NDN by blood are not connected to the Ways.
The Protocols, have been established by our ancestors for thousands of years, we do not and connect change what has been given to us to follow on this path our ancestors set for us.
These sacred intruments are powerful and we must help our NDN people with these sacred.
We cannot afford to make mistakes on this sacred path of our spirituality, no shortcuts.
So for those who imitate and are not NDN by blood, then they risk their own families health and happiness by trying to imitate themselves in the sacred ways.
These photos of the so called altar is not a true Altar, it is only a person imitating.
-
Well that is nice.
We have a protection order, if you want a pipe that nice but don't say
"We are all relate", Don't relate that pipe to Lakota way, our language or our culture.
Don't use our direction (each tribe has their own) don't use our colors and if i find that a person is using any of these i will takle that pipe because it is my right.
No you have no right! you have no say! and you are not sacred,
NO non Indians.
I know I know it is white privledge you take and take and take with no right to.
You make assumptions that show your ignorance, racism and prejudice.
"Protection order"? Like the Christian church, do you now police the spiritual realm?
When you say "all my relations", do you exclude any in this universe from that? White, black, yellow, purple, blue, two legs, four legs, winged, fins, standing people. If any are excluded, then you are lost to your own spirit and your words are only that. Words. They have no meaning.
What of Cree? Blood? Anishinabe? Tlingit? Many many tribes. Lakota are not the only first nations people. These people all have their own teachings. Their own way. Colours are the same for some. Tradition... some are the same, some are not. The spirits speak ALL languages, not just Lakota.
No, it is not "your right" to deny the pipe it's will. To do so is not sacred. When you say it is your right to choose another's spirituality, you are no better than the white people who try to take away yours.
This greediness. This anger. This judgement. While you embrace these in your heart you are lost to the meaning of your own spirit.
All my relations
-
It is someone who is not authorized by the traditional Lakota elders to do pipe ceremony. If you were a real pipe carrier, or had met any, you would know what this meant.
Who I am, and whether I am a pipe carrier or have met an official, "authorized" Lakota pipe carrier makes no difference. You know I speak truth.
Lakota is not the only tribe, nor do they decide who can and who cannot carry a pipe for those the world over. I feel that it may be prudent for you to expand your attention to elsewhere in the world, as it is the planet upon which you live, inhabited by those you call your relations. These rules are Lakota, yes, because it is their wish to define rules about these things. Simply deciding to define rules does not make it good, or true, or right.
White Buffalo Calf Woman did not tell the people that they must define rules around who can and cannot carry a pipe.
If you do your research you will find that in every one of the four colours of people, pipes are traditional in spirit work, medicine, or whatever you want to call it.
You are mistaken. You are attempting to use Lakota terms and symbols, not "universal" ones. You probably have just been exposed to people who are not Lakota and don't know what they're talking about. Now is your chance to learn how to not be offensive.
I am not the one who needs to learn this, sister. There are first nations people from my country who would take you to the ground for speaking in this way. You are assuming that I am speaking of Lakota ways, when I am not. Never once did I make reference to the Lakota people. My knowledge of other indigenous cultures comes from both research and experience. So, no, I'm afraid I am not mistaken.
Making the statement that those who are not Lakota "do not know what they are talking about" is offensive to many. Perhaps there is something here that you could learn.
You need to realize that there are people here who don't need to "do research" to find out what Lakota traditions are, as they are Lakota, such as Earth, who has responded in this thread. For people here, traditional ways are not about the Internet and books, they are real, living traditions, maintained by actual communities of Indigenous people. The "validity" of non-NDN people who want to use NDN ceremonies is not up for debate. The purpose of this site is to fight that abuse.
Again, I never once spoke of Lakota, nor did I mention the Lakota. I understand that the original thread has to do with one who feels she is related to the Lakota in some way, but my statements are in general, not specific. I stated that people need to do research to understand other cultures, and understand how the pipe is used within them. Again, the use of a pipe in spiritual traditions is not exclusive to the First Nations people.
I have great respect for the purpose of this site, which is why I am here. I see medicines bought and sold, I see sacred objects treated with disrespect, and I see people taken advantage of and being charged money to attend ceremony. But I also believe that attempting to control spirit with rules and exclusionary practices is just as disrespectful to the spirit of these things. Spirit is freely available to all, no matter how they wish to practice it.
I am Wihtikokan. I am a contrary spirit. This talk of "validity" makes me laugh. The great spirit does not judge, or speak through one people only. This is what the Christians try to convince all of us of and they used this reasoning to try to wipe out First Nations culture. This is the belief that Muslims will kill you for.
This is a far cry from the true meaning of "all my relations". If that is disrespect, then I will be disrespectful so you can see the truth of these words.
All my relations
-
This attempt to hijack a thread in Frauds was moved. Kindly have the manners not to do that again, Voice.
Voice/Contrary, you certainly are being disrespectful. You are presuming to lecture a Lakota about Lakota traditions. And you are smearing people as racist when they dedicate themselves to fighting the racism inherent in white Nuagers asserting White Privilege, that they somehow "have a right" to take over, misuse, misrepresent, etc, Native traditions.
This is especially ironic since you use the English spelling for "colour" leading me to believe you are likely a European. So all that you say is very condescending.
If you don't know that virtually EVERY Native tradition I'm aware of says one must be a part of that people to be a teacher or medicine person, then you don't know much.
You also are making an ignorant claim that all tribal peoples practice pipe traditions, even including Africans. So tell me, why don't Apaches have pipe keepers? (Pipe carrier is the Nuage term, and hundreds of THEM imagine themselves to be "pipe carriers".)
Navajos? Cherokees? Six Nations? Mayans? Etc, etc. In fact none of the tribes outside of the Plains have keepers of a sacred pipe in anything even close to what the Lakota do. Pipes are used in ceremony sometimes, but not nearly in the same way. Like many Nuagers, you are homogenizing all Native traditions, imagining them to be nearly identical.
You claim you know these things based on "learning and experience" and yet you also make the very prideful boasting claim of being a contrary. This can't help but give us the impression that you have yourself been taken in people falsely claiming to be medicine people, and that you want to believe somehow they are not wrong. I hope I'm wrong about that (since I don't like to see anyone harmed or lied to) but it does seem like that is what's driving these bizarre and insulting attempts to lecture Native people about Native traditions.
And a European claiming to be a contrary. I don't even see much of a need to say more, since it destroys all credibility for you. I'll simply ask you what your purpose is in here except to give yourself a false sense of superiority by imagining you somehow know more than people actually raised in the traditions.
I hope you stay and learn, and that one of the first things you learn is something most Natives have been taught by elders and family, to listen more than speak, or you will never learn anything.
-
The Redstone Pipe, these Redstone Pipes are sacred to the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota, the area that these sacred stone is mined, is within the territory of the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota. The Lakota/Dakota/Nakota people are the caretakers of the Ways associated wtih the Redstone Pipes, and within those protocols is the way of being to walk with sacred pipe. Not everyone and all carried these sacred Pipes, only those whose life was dedicated to the spiritual well being of the people, was chosen to be the one to use the sacred pipe to pray for the people....
The words "All My Relations" is powerful, but the meaning today has been distorted by those who do not truly understand it, those who do not understand it want to use it to include themselves to in some way authorize themselves to carry a sacred pipe.....to do it without the proper protocols.....these protocols were given to be followed by the Calf Pipe Woman, who brought the sacred instrument to the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota people, so these protocols are seriously important.....In the old days history, these Redstones were given to the other tribes to help them with a blessing, to pray for their people, these Redstones were prayed with and given in a positive way, along with basic protocols....these redstones were given to those who have dedicated themselves to the spiritual well being of their people.....When the protocols were given the words "All My Relations" meant for all our Relations including every creation.....there was no knowledge of the White Race, Black Race or Yellow Races....It was meant for what the Red Man knew in the World he was born into and all those associated with this land....now, today this country and all these Races want what was given to the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota peoples, the Redstone.......yet they want to disregard the protocols to have it and try to use the meaning of All My Relations to include themselves into it.......They try to make the words into a racist meaning.....there is the mistake of it......
-
I guess I will put in my 2 cents worth here....
First of all I am having difficulty with your user name, as you sound more like the voice of arrogance than the voice of reason.
Yes many indigenous Nations used pipes and several have a long relationship with the Sacred Pipe. As far as I know, all the First Nations that had a relationship with the Sacred Pipe have had very strict protocols around how the Sacred Pipe is treated, and when, where, and by whom it may be used.
You parrot off "All my relations" but you reduce the Sacred Pipe to nothing more than an object, when you remove it from all it's relationships with The People, and the culture.
In order to have a culture there has to be a structure, which means there are rules, and things that are done a certain way and not done a certain way.
Maybe a properly cared for Sacred Pipe can sometimes help individual non native people, though I am not sure about that. A lot of the power of traditional things like the Pipe seems to be in the connection they provide indigenous people to their own ancient history . So I am not sure how well these things can work outside of this context. They may work OK occasionally, but i am very sure that if traditions are removed from the context in which they have a long history, they loose much of their power to lift people into something much greater than themselves, and the healing this provides. I also believe Prayers performed with sincerity anywhere by anyone, have the power to heal and are a help to the world. Probably this is especially true when these Prayers have the added support and context provided by ones own ancient traditions, but when the outer trappings of other peoples traditions are adopted, it really seems to miss the point of both Prayer and the purpose of traditions in supporting Prayer.
By removing the Sacred Pipe from the culture, the protocols, the rules of how these things are done, you remove the Pipe from all it's relations, and it is being treated like a non living object.
Only non living objects are not affected by their relationships, how they are cared for, or what conditions they find themselves in .
I wonder how long the Christian religion would last if anyone who went out and bought a
an little statue of Jesus could declare themselves a fully ordained minister, in the belief the power of the Jesus statue would over power any persons incompetence, arrogance, dishonesty or even exploitation.
I wonder what would become of the Buddhist religion if all the teachings were reduced to possessing a little stone statue of the Buddha.
Your belief system sounds materialistic and object oriented, with some magical thinking mixed in there that conviniently relieves you from any responsibility for the relationships your own behavior has the power to build or destroy. You might want to consider what you actually mean when you say "All my relations".
It's only non native culture that assumes the world revolves around individual people and what they personally possess.
-
Voice,
You claim you are not using Lakota ways and yet you bring up White Buffalo Calf Woman who is only a part of Lakota/Dakota/Nakota ways. And also the much misused phrase you use of "All My Relations" is another thing from that culture. And from a late Lakota friend, I know how skewed nuagers have made this phrase. You nuagers seem to think it means something entirely different then what it truly means. But I will leave that for Lakota People to explain that.
-
This attempt to hijack a thread in Frauds was moved. Kindly have the manners not to do that again, Voice.
Voice/Contrary, you certainly are being disrespectful. You are presuming to lecture a Lakota about Lakota traditions. And you are smearing people as racist when they dedicate themselves to fighting the racism inherent in white Nuagers asserting White Privilege, that they somehow "have a right" to take over, misuse, misrepresent, etc, Native traditions.
I didn't attempt to "hijack" anything. I merely asked a simple question: How can you tell whether a pipe carrier is "fake" or not. I got answers based on Lakota tradition. But I merely stated that Lakota is not the only indigenous peoples on our continent. There are many teachings. To believe that only one is the true and right way is exclusionary and arrogant, and [Condescension].
Nor did I ever say anything about nuagers.
The responses I am getting to my post which put words in my mouth only serve to illustrate [Personal insults removed].
I assumed that this site is in place to try to protect all *First Nations* spiritual practice.
This is especially ironic since you use the English spelling for "colour" leading me to believe you are likely a European. So all that you say is very condescending.
If you are in the U.S.A., this means that yours is the only English speaking country that spells color in this way. [Personal insult removed]. The tribes that I speak of should give you a clue, and maybe give you clues as to where my teachings come from.
Educatedindian, you can speak of these imaginary boundaries as if they are real and make any sort of difference in the world. They are nothing but human constructs to allow one group of people say, "you are different than I". When the true meaning of "all my relations", shows that this is not so. It is an illusion. We are all brothers and sisters. Two leggeds. All human. COLOUR or tribe means nothing in the eyes of the great spirit.
Do you all presume to know better than our creator?
If you don't know that virtually EVERY Native tradition I'm aware of says one must be a part of that people to be a teacher or medicine person, then you don't know much.
Every Native tradition that *you* are aware of. [Personal insult] [Personal insult] [Personal insult]
Yaqui? Mazatec? Cree? Tlingit? Blackfoot? Many elders give teachings to those that are not a part of that people because they see that these divisions are simply illusions. They remember the true meaning of "we are related".
Even some of the most celebrated Lakota elders have seen the bigger picture and given their teachings to those outside of their own people.
You also are making an ignorant claim that all tribal peoples practice pipe traditions, even including Africans. So tell me, why don't Apaches have pipe keepers? (Pipe carrier is the Nuage term, and hundreds of THEM imagine themselves to be "pipe carriers".)
I never made any such claim. I never once said "ALL tribal people practice pipe traditions." I said, "Medicine men from all cultures traditionally used pipes in their ceremony" Specifically making reference to the fact that there are indigenous traditions from all races that utilize a pipe of some form or another.
The term "pipe carrier" was used in the original thread by, I am assuming, a Native non-nuager.
Navajos? Cherokees? Six Nations? Mayans? Etc, etc. In fact none of the tribes outside of the Plains have keepers of a sacred pipe in anything even close to what the Lakota do. Pipes are used in ceremony sometimes, but not nearly in the same way. Like many Nuagers, you are homogenizing all Native traditions, imagining them to be nearly identical.
Again, putting words in my mouth. I never specifically mentioned the Lakota at all. In many ceremonies that I have attended, Lakota, Cree, Tlingit, Blackfoot, The pipe is used in the same way.
I am not homogenizing all Native traditions, only speaking from my experience. However, like many Christians, bible thumpers and [Personal attacks] [Personal insults]
You claim you know these things based on "learning and experience" and yet you also make the very prideful boasting claim of being a contrary. This can't help but give us the impression that you have yourself been taken in people falsely claiming to be medicine people, and that you want to believe somehow they are not wrong. I hope I'm wrong about that (since I don't like to see anyone harmed or lied to) but it does seem like that is what's driving these bizarre and insulting attempts to lecture Native people about Native traditions.
I did not choose the name I was given, nor did I choose the path that comes along with it. For me, this does not give me pride, nor is it something that I boast about. Personally, I grappled with this for years and did not want it.
I stated that this is who I am to give you an idea of why I am here and why I speak the way I do. In the end, I care about you and love you all because you are all my relations, no matter what colour or tribe you are from. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. But after reading a number of posts, it's apparent and obvious to me that [Personal insult], and this [Personal insult] which will always keep you from experiencing your true nature.
Quite frankly, the [Personal insult] is astounding. The fact that you presume to know whether someone's teachers are "falsely claiming to be medicine people" and that they are "wrong" based on a few minor interactions on the Internet [Personal insult] and is [Personal insult] to your own spirit and ways.
I hope you stay and learn, and that one of the first things you learn is something most Natives have been taught by elders and family, to listen more than speak, or you will never learn anything.
Oh yes, I agree. [Personal insults].
This is for all of you participating in this thread:
Simply because I have beliefs and teachings that run contrary to some of yours does not make me a nuager, nor does it define the colour of my skin.
If even for a second any of you made these assumptions, then it is probably in your best interests to truly examine the motivations for your actions on this site, and examine what it is that drives your passion to protect these ways.
All my relations
[Al's note: Numerous personal insults removed. And they will continue to be. Learn basic manners and quit being the Voice of Condescension.]
-
Voice,
You claim you are not using Lakota ways and yet you bring up White Buffalo Calf Woman who is only a part of Lakota/Dakota/Nakota ways. And also the much misused phrase you use of "All My Relations" is another thing from that culture. And from a late Lakota friend, I know how skewed nuagers have made this phrase. You nuagers seem to think it means something entirely different then what it truly means. But I will leave that for Lakota People to explain that.
I bring up White Buffalo Calf Woman because I am apparently speaking to a Lakota.
And given the true meaning of the phrase, "All my relations", there is no such thing as misuse. If more people understood *AND BELIEVED* the true meaning of those words, the world would not be in the state it is today. In fact, if all of you truly believed this, this site probably would not exist.
The meaning behind these words is found in many different languages and stated in many different ways in many different cultures. The spiritual understanding that we are all related is not a thing that is unique to the Lakota.
If "all my relations" excludes anything at all for you... or means to you that, "I am related only to those who agree with me and are the same tribe and/or colour and/or follow my ways and/or practice their spirituality in a specific way", then you are lost to the true meaning of the words themselves.
When you say, "All my relations" in your ceremony or in your home, are you not including all things of this world? Your own people, of course.. The Eagle, yes? The bear? The wolf? What of the Condor? What of the Elephant in Africa? What of the grass? The trees? The rocks? The mountains? The child in Afghanistan? The rest of the universe? Are they not all your relations?
All my relations
-
When the protocols were given the words "All My Relations" meant for all our Relations including every creation.....there was no knowledge of the White Race, Black Race or Yellow Races....
I deeply respect your teachings on the red stones. So to this I will not comment, as this is your way and your teachings. I have seen pipes of many shapes, colours and sizes. Made of many different materials. They are all sacred to the bearer.
Your words above, are true and good. "All My Relations" meant for all our relations *including every creation*.
Every creation.
EVERY CREATION.
Even at that time, this included all peoples and all races. All things in the known and unknown universe.
Every Creation.
yet they want to disregard the protocols to have it and try to use the meaning of All My Relations to include themselves into it.......They try to make the words into a racist meaning.....there is the mistake of it......
As I said in another post. If, to you, "All My Relations" excludes any of the great spirit's creations, then you seriously need to re-evaluate what these ways mean to you and why you are here, on this site.
If any people include themselves in this and believe that everything is "their relation", this is not "racist". This is good! And there is no mistake in that.
All my relations
-
I agree with you that we are all related - I am related to the nature and to all other people, not by blood but in a spiritual sense.
THEREFORE I have an obligation to show other people r-e-s-p-e-c-t, to listen to their wisdom, to have faith in them knowing how to take care of their part of Mother Earth and letting them do that without interferense. Seeing them as my "relatives" means NOT to take their things, abuse their sacred ways, but to help them to protect what is closest to their hearts.
Isn´t that the way you treat your relations?
-
I guess I will put in my 2 cents worth here....
Excellent! The more, the merrier!
First of all I am having difficulty with your user name, as you sound more like the voice of arrogance than the voice of reason.
Oh, I don't know. Maybe [Personal insult], you may go back and re-read some of the posts in this thread, and you may see the truth of it. If you find me arrogant, well, that is ok with me. At least I have gotten you to participate, and maybe think about your reasons for being here.
Yes many indigenous Nations used pipes and several have a long relationship with the Sacred Pipe. As far as I know, all the First Nations that had a relationship with the Sacred Pipe have had very strict protocols around how the Sacred Pipe is treated, and when, where, and by whom it may be used.
Yes. On this we agree.
However, perhaps the difference here is that my teachings did not specify tribe or colour in relation to these, only *character*.
My personal belief is that any teaching designed to exclude a person based on any reason, (I.e.: a person's colour), and which causes division can only be rooted the historical past between the races, which means it is rooted in anger and hate.
As Chaska stated, "there was no knowledge of the White Race, Black Race or Yellow Races...." If this is the case, then why would there be teachings related to colour? If there was no knowledge of other races when the original teachings were given, then where do you think these "new" teachings came from?
You parrot off "All my relations" but you reduce the Sacred Pipe to nothing more than an object, when you remove it from all it's relationships with The People, and the culture.
Reading back through the thread, I think [Personal insult] that the pipe is a living, breathing thing that deserves respect. My teachings are that the pipe chooses it's bearer, for whatever reasons it has. It is not for us to question this.
In fact, it knows, better than we do that all is related as this is it's teaching. Rock, Tree, Fire, Air, Male, Female, North, South, East, West, Mother Earth, The Great Spirit, all the two leggeds, the four leggeds, the winged ones, the finned ones... they are all there.
Maybe a properly cared for Sacred Pipe can sometimes help individual non native people, though I am not sure about that. A lot of the power of traditional things like the Pipe seems to be in the connection they provide indigenous people to their own ancient history . So I am not sure how well these things can work outside of this context. They may work OK occasionally, but i am very sure that if traditions are removed from the context in which they have a long history, they loose much of their power to lift people into something much greater than themselves, and the healing this provides. I also believe Prayers performed with sincerity anywhere by anyone, have the power to heal and are a help to the world. Probably this is especially true when these Prayers have the added support and context provided by ones own ancient traditions, but when the outer trappings of other peoples traditions are adopted, it really seems to miss the point of both Prayer and the purpose of traditions in supporting Prayer.
By removing the Sacred Pipe from the culture, the protocols, the rules of how these things are done, you remove the Pipe from all it's relations, and it is being treated like a non living object.
Aaahh... Now [Condescension] I completely understand and agree with what you say here, and this is good. Context is everything.
So ask yourself, when the first pipe was given to the people, there was no history. No tradition established. No connection to the past of the people. What made this pipe sacred? What gave this pipe it's life? What gave it it's ability to heal and bring the people together?
My belief is that this pipe has power because of the *intention* and respect in the hearts of the people who use it. Which is still true for that pipe today, and is true for all sacred pipes.
Which goes back to my first post. It is really all about intention and respect.
I have seen sacred pipes help individual non-native people. Not all are blind to the traditions and the teachings. Not all are disrespectful of these ways. To paint large swaths of people with the label of "black" or "white" or paint all people of a specific race or tribe with the same wide brush is no better than them painting Indigenous people with the brush of "alcoholics, bums and derelicts".
I wonder what would become of the Buddhist religion if all the teachings were reduced to possessing a little stone statue of the Buddha.
It's interesting you bring up buddhism, as this is a spiritual system in which the adherents believe that there are no boundaries to who can practice. It doesn't matter if you are Tibetan or Indian, white, black or purple. They truly live the oneness concept to the core.
The little stone buddhist statues are simply personifications and reminders of the teachings of a simple man, Siddhartha Gautama.
One can follow these ways if they so desire, and there are traditions that go with it, as well. But these traditions are not exclusionary in any way, shape or form. A white man or a First Nations person could enter a monastery and begin teachings tomorrow. In fact, Tibetan monks seek bodhisattva's in all continents in people of all colours. To them, the incarnation and sacredness of these beings and energies is not dependent on a person's colour, status or upbringing.
Your belief system sounds materialistic and object oriented, with some magical thinking mixed in there that conviniently relieves you from any responsibility for the relationships your own behavior has the power to build or destroy. You might want to consider what you actually mean when you say "All my relations".
I suggest you re-read my posts in this thread.
It's only non native culture that assumes the world revolves around individual people and what they personally possess.
Tsk tsk... [Condescension and personal insults]
All my relations
[Again learn basic manners. We don't reward overgrown children posing as spirchul.]
-
I agree with you that we are all related - I am related to the nature and to all other people, not by blood but in a spiritual sense.
THEREFORE I have an obligation to show other people [Condescension and personal insults], to listen to their wisdom, to have faith in them knowing how to take care of their part of Mother Earth and letting them do that without interferense. Seeing them as my "relatives" means NOT to take their things, abuse their sacred ways, but to help them to protect what is closest to their hearts.
Isn´t that the way you treat your relations?
Yes! What you say is good and true.
And if you believe that this applies to *all people*, then you are truly in the heart of it.
"I have an obligation to show other people r-e-s-p-e-c-t, to listen to their wisdom, to have faith in them knowing how to take care of their part of Mother Earth and letting them do that without interferense."
Yes! Yes! and yes!! This includes white, black, yellow, red. This includes ALL things. Rocks, trees, water, earth, four leggeds, wingeds... six leggeds!! They are all *people* who deserve your respect. Have faith in them taking care of their part of Mother Earth, no matter what way they choose to do it, and let them do it without interference.
If *any* of these people choose to walk the red road in a good way, then that gives me joy! These ways are good, and the more people there are who walk them, the brighter our future is. Any teachings that run contrary to this only serve to create more division and fool people into believing that we are not related.
I believe that this is what the Elders mean when they say that we all used to speak the same language. The trees... The rocks... the Earth... The Birds... All people of this world, and even Mother Earth herself.
[Long condescending passage removed]
All my relations
-
Even some of the most celebrated Lakota elders have seen the bigger picture and given their teachings to those outside of their own people.
All my relations
And their followers have wreaked havoc, butchered and twisted Lakota spirituality.
"All My Relations" I hate that phrase and never will use it. It is the cry of the "Wannabe Tribe" and a sickening excuse to use and abuse another's culture.
Rich Joseph "Piney"
-
Voice
I have seen sacred pipes help individual non-native people. Not all are blind to the traditions and the teachings. Not all are disrespectful of these ways.
Perhaps it is true that not all non native people are as disrespectful as you are , but from what I have seen ,over time , it takes a knowledgeable community with deep roots to keep these ways in balance. I have no idea how anyone could look at all the abuse reported in these pages and still insist that individual rights to "have" is more important than the collective long term health of these traditions. But of course that attitude is typical of non native culture which puts short term individual privilidge ahead of the long term health of the whole.
It seems to me it is the arrogant and disrespectful attitudes like yours that made it necessary to draw a line somewhere pass that protection order.
Gotta go... Hope you will consider what is being said here and that you will gain some understanding ..... You would think Respect for Native traditions would include Respect for the Native people who have a deep and time tested understanding of what is necessary to maintain these traditions for future generations . Respect is a behavior, not just some fancy words justifying your sense of entitlement .
-
Even some of the most celebrated Lakota elders have seen the bigger picture and given their teachings to those outside of their own people.
All my relations
And their followers have wreaked havoc, butchered and twisted Lakota spirituality.
"All My Relations" I hate that phrase and never will use it. It is the cry of the "Wannabe Tribe" and a sickening excuse to use and abuse another's culture.
Rich Joseph "Piney"
You may judge your Elder's actions harshly if that is your desire. This does not change the fact that spirit spoke to them, and they listened. They did not question and they did not judge. They did not live their lives out of anger, as you choose to do. Their hearts were pure and good, and as a result, their actions were as well.
[Long condescending and insulting passage removed]
I love the phrase. And when I say it, you are included as well.
All my relations
[For the final time, learn basic manners.]
-
Perhaps it is true that not all non native people are as disrespectful as you are ,
[Personal insult}
[Racist remarks]
But of course that attitude is typical of non native culture which puts short term individual privilidge ahead of the long term health of the whole.
[Personal insult]
[Personal insult]
I see abuse on these pages, yes. [Personal insult]
There are good people of all races. In many posts I see that this site is simply a way for many [Personal insult]. And like a virus, it grows and infects.
It seems to me it is the arrogant and disrespectful attitudes like yours that made it necessary to draw a line somewhere pass that protection order.
[Personal insult]. You have absolutely NO idea who I am, but this does not matter to you [Personal insult]. Please feel free to continue to assume that all who hold differing opinions from you must either be a) Non-Native or b) nuagers. But please don't believe that by doing so that you are helping anyone in any good way.
Respect is a behavior, not just some fancy words justifying your sense of entitlement .
Yes, I completely agree. Too bad [Personal insult]
All my relations
[And you're out of here. You've been warned half a dozen times, and you continue to be insulting. If you ever grow up, let us know.]
-
what tribal nation are you enrolled in?
If you re from the Plains which reservation do you live on?
If it is another nation who made you a pipe carrier which one?
What Native family supposes you?
Are you Hunka?
Since this pipe is not related to the White Buffalo Calf woman
which stories gives it light?
We know the surrounding plains tribes and work with them.
If you are related to a Tribal nation give us your family name
I can trace them and talk with them about you.
-
Anyone can pray the way they want in private but when someone takes something from another culture as a means of prayer and goes Public with it, then it is no longer prayer but becomes something vain or political or economic in its intent. It gets perverted into an attempted means of holding power over other people. The arrogance of some of the people exposed here is truly amazing, and insidious - they seem to have a colonial, consuming mentality and quickly become evil people.
-
You may judge your Elder's actions harshly if that is your desire.
I am Nanticoke and 6 Nations Delaware. My spirituality is Quaker. They are not my elders, nor is their spirituality my culture.
You are attacking with personal insults. I guess you are not as intellectual as you try to appear. Shallow, very shallow, and unspiritual I might add.
Rich Joseph "Cuwewii" (Piney)
-
These Colors that some are trying to include into this, HOW the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota have these colors, comes from the Helpers of Creator, comparable to Angels, but have NDN names. These Helpers communicate to the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota spiritual peoples in ceremonies, and when we request their aid, they come to help us. These Helpers also instruct us about colors in certain ways, these Helpers never have said that these colors Black, white or Yellow stands for other races.....never.....These colors they have instructed to us may represent the direction WEST...to represent the Dark Clouds and the Thunder, whence rain comes to purify the land, the air and ourselves....Therefore, those that try to insinuate that these Colors represents Races, then that is their made interpretation......The Lakota/Dakota/Nakota have always helped other races, other tribes even the Animal Nations, but it is these others in the other races who try to mimic the spiritual persons of Lakota/Dakota/Nakota. The other tribes all have spiritual persons who knows this, because the spiritual person hear the Land, the Mother Earth.
-
All nations have different colors, none of which I know of pertain to race. This idea has come up in the last 10+ years, maybe more. It is like the use of the phrase "We are all related", which is a misquote and has been used in the corrupted state to meet people's needs. My opinion is that it just enforces their idea of "sharing and entitlement", and sell warm, fuzzy T-shirts with these sayings at PowWows. It's just another corruption used to misinform the general public and justify individual needs. The bottom line is that it has nothing to do with nothing pertaining to the Nations.
-
I've been a guest on this site for a wile now, and have made my contributons through others. But I decided I should add my thougts to this talk.
Censorship is just plain wrong. Ppl deserve to have their say, evn if you do not like it. This voice says some true things, even if he does not know how to always say it nice.
I do not like censorship, so I will most likely nt be back. censorship is wrng and is abuse of power, like whie man.
-
WOW....Im sorry I dont agree...I believe censorship was justified...this is not a place to come to, merely to attack others. Yes people have the right to an opinion...but one has to hear the opinions of others too...without attacking them or verbally abusing them...something which Voice Of Reason (Quite a strange name considering the tone used) failed to grasp.
Admin do a wonderful job here...as difficult as it must be....and for that...I personally am very grateful...as Im sure are many others.
With Respect,
Tsissy
-
If many are bothered by this, we may split off this topic and start one about what we allow posted in here. So far it seems to be just one person who never joined, before they decided to make that single post saying they wouldn't be back.
"Voice" had been warned a number of times to quit insulting people, then continued to. Half a dozen is more than enough chances.
Incidentally, one person told me they believe that "Voice" was most likely none other than Suzanne Dupree. I'm not sure about that. Dupree couldn't write or reason that well.
-
She never presented herself the last time, always had someone do it for her. If it is her or a representative for her, I always found it strange they come here instead of going to the L/D/N Nation's Elders or Councils. People that issue a string of personal insults usually have an agenda, cause an argument, be disruptive or just throwing a tantrum. I don't know many legimate Medicine People that would do that.
-
People that issue a string of personal insults usually have an agenda, cause an argument, be disruptive or just throwing a tantrum. I don't know many legimate Medicine People that would do that.
I don't know of any that would do that.
-
True, to the creator we are all one. meaning we are all his children, thus brothers and sisters, one family. However, all families have members that do things a little different than the rest. Just as a father may teach his children to do different things, to behave and think in such a way that is best for them, so the creator has done with His children.
To those who seek to honor Him, and follow his ways, He has given the means to do so, as is best for them. To the L/D/N He has given the sacred pipe, and ways and laws for them. To others He has given other things, and ways and laws. Yes, many are similar, for some of His laws are universal, but some are for the people to whom they were given. The issue isn't the use of pipes, but the use of L/D/N pipes and/or ceremony, which only the L/D/N have the right to do.
To each He says "this is how I wish you to honor Me and care for each other" giving specific rules for ceremony, behavior,etc. For someone else to use the tools, or methods of a people not their own is disrespectful not only to the people they have taken from, but to the Creator as well. To then use these things for personal gain, is sacralige of a high order.
If the Creator decides that for a particular person, the ways He has given to a particular group is best for that person, then He will send that person to those people, the person will come with humility, willing to learn, to become for all intents and purposes one of those people. And if it be the creators will for that person, He will also make it known to the people that it is His will for them to embrace this person as one of their own. Such a person would never take what is learned and go out and share it, because it is not the peoples way, and such a person would become in heart, mind and spirit one of the people, such that he/she would take an insult directed at tehe people as a personal insult to themselves.
Yes, there are some things the creator has said can be shared with all, these things however are the universal laws of the creator, to love one another, to help those in need, etc. But there to say that all the ways of this people, or that people are good for everyone is to assume the role of the One who has the authority to decide what is best for His children.
To say that it is ok for someone not native to use and share with the general public for a fee or even for free what was given to a people because it was best for them, is to say the creator didn't know what He was doing in giving the people who choose to follow Him and honor Him the ways best suited to them to do this, for His own purposes.
-
I believe the real power of ceremony Indians have is primarily genetic. I've been lucky enough in my day to have seen a bit of it and it's ancient and powerful stuff. It's childish for non-Indian adults to be running around wearing colored chicken feathers and using idiotic names pretending and wishing to be something they can never be no matter how hard they wish and try. Hostility to such poachers is fully justified and the restraint and measured responses coming from the Indians in this forum is commendable to say the least. It seems we have 4 kinds: poachers, those who respect, those who are indifferent but do no harm and those who are indifferent and will allow harm to be done.
-
My Grandfathers told me "When you pray with this Cannupa, and you are praying for the world peoples, you say the words "Two Leggeds", this covers all of them across the waters and them in those territories, so even though we never have met them, we are praying for their health and happiness, where ever they may be....When we pray for all NDN peoples it is different, because their blood is the color in the Pipe, when a NDN persons dies, then that color vanishes and reappears in the stone where the Pipe stone is in the ground. This Red Stone is only in one place in the entire world, there is no other places where it is....It was placed for us only to use it, placed for us to pray for others and all creations, so when you hold the Cannupa and pray with it, then all the NDN ancestors is in it with you...there are the protocols that must be in place, the language will have the emotion in it, the songs sung with it must have the emotions in it, the prayers must have the emotions in it, that way the Cannupa and the prayer becomes one and has power in it.....these other races have their own ways that come from where their root (country) originated, that is where THEY are connected and that is where their ancestors lay buried. That is why we NDN do not want to live in any other country's because we are connected here to the power."
-
I was distracted when I wrote my earlier replies, and haven't had time to get back to this till now. As the Voices rationalizations for opposing those who are trying to protect these traditions is so common, I wanted to point out a few more of the ways this so called "voice of reason" doesn't even make sense.
First , maybe it happens, but I have never heard of a person of Native descent who grew up in a Native community being told they were unsuited to assist in traditional ceremonies because they were the wrong color. With the intermarriage that has happened enrolled community members come in all colors and sometimes traditional leaders don't look Indian. What is important seems to be that people leading traditional ceremonies actually have a life long relationship with a Native community, they are of good character, and it is the Native community that is served by them having a part in maintaining these traditions.
Sometimes I hear Native people try and explain this by saying these traditions don't belong to the White , Black or Yellow Nations, but I suspect what is being said is not that people are being excluded because of physical appearence, but that people cannot be a part of maintaining a collective ancient tradition if they have no real continuously existing connection with these traditions or the collective culture they belong to. If some people think this is racist, look up the meaning of the word "tradition". A tradition that isn't someones tradition , isn't a tradition . I doubt this is about what color people are. Some of the most respected Elders I know are mixed blood and look White not Indian. What color they are just isn't important to the people in their community.
I have known Elders who were open to inviting non native people to share a Pipe ceremony , and these Elders felt non native people might benefit from this, but I have never known a respected Native person who believed non native people have what it takes to be leading traditional ceremonies. (something non native people for some peculiar reason often feel they need to do ) None of these Elders who were open to including non native people , but who also frowned on non native people leading ceremonies , were racist or unkind to people of different colors . They were just being practical.
Chaska mentions the importance of language, and I think this is something people who only speak English often fail to understand.
I don't know much about Lakota traditions, and I am wading into something I don't know much about in what I am about to say , but I have heard Elders explain that even simple verbs like "walking" or "eating" can have so many variations in some Native languages, that a whole chapter of a dictionary would be required to explain them all. Unlike English most Native languages put more of an emphasis on verbs, whereas English is noun orientated.
I have often heard that in many Native languages there is many words which have no English equivalent. Without a word, there isn't even a concept. Which is one reason that these teachings and traditions need to be preserved in the language they originated in. Otherwise it is probably similar to imagining it is possible to teach advanced concepts in physics using the language and concepts of a people who had no use for anything but simple mathamatics.
I may be misunderstanding this, ( if I am wrong hopefully someone will correct me ) but I always had the impression that saying "All my relations" was referring to the behavior (verb ) of having relations and that saying this was more a way of acknowledging duties and obligations to behave properly.
It seems to be only the New Age people who interpret this word as a noun, which together with the word "my" is imagined to mean that everything which belongs to anyone automatically belongs to everybody else, and anybody who puts up any boundaries is in some way denying the basic interconnection of all living creatures. I think this is not only really distorting the meaning , but it is also completely impractical and unrealistic.
Voice also expressed a lot of other typical fuzzy misconceptions that aren't true but serve to justify attacking traditionalists who are trying to preserve their culture ...
Voice
It's interesting you bring up buddhism, as this is a spiritual system in which the adherents believe that there are no boundaries to who can practice.
One can follow these ways if they so desire, and there are traditions that go with it, as well. But these traditions are not exclusionary in any way, shape or form. A white man or a First Nations person could enter a monastery and begin teachings tomorrow.
I know a number of people in the Buddhist community and there is many boundaries which are very strictly policed. People must do many years of practice before they have any chance of being accepted as a monk or nun, they must be recommended by a Spiritual leader who is recognized by the Buddhist community, and this recommendation goes on to be considered by a group of similarly recognized Spiritual leaders and may still be turned down. In fact I know a Native man who wished to become a Buddist monk and even though he had been involved in many Buddhist practices for many years he was told he had worldly karma he had to work out and the answer was NO. Many Buddhist ceremonies are open only to people who are invited, and people hoping to participate must do whatever is required as preparation and even then any individual may be told they bring something into the ceremony which doesn't serves the purposes of the Buddhist community.
In the case of Buddhism, it isn't necessary to consider personal cultural background, but this isn't because Buddhist traditions allow anyone to do whatever they want. It's because ( as I understand it ) Buddhism seeks to empower the part of human nature which is not identified with any conditional form, identity or cultural background. This is , in it's very essence, a very different practice than when indigenous peoples are trying to maintain uncorrupted cultural traditions and identity. And though it hasn't occured to the all knowing voice of rationalization, I doubt the tradition of the Sacred Pipe just started out of now where.
Voice
So ask yourself, when the first pipe was given to the people, there was no history. No tradition established. No connection to the past of the people. What made this pipe sacred? What gave this pipe it's life? What gave it it's ability to heal and bring the people together?
As I understand it, the Red Stone that the Sacred Pipe is made from is said to be the blood of the indigenous People's ancestors, which became the Red Stone. As the Stone existed before any Pipes could be made from it, the traditions that gave birth to the Sacred Pipe, and even how the Pipe came, have their roots in the relationship the People had with the land for many many miilenea.
Voice
My belief is that this pipe has power because of the *intention* and respect in the hearts of the people who use it. Which is still true for that pipe today, and is true for all sacred pipes.
Which goes back to my first post. It is really all about intention and respect.
I also don't understand why, if this is what some people believe, that they feel they need to use Native traditions at all. Why not just take their good intentions and do their own thing, as that is all they seem to think is important.
It seems so incredibly unkind and disrespectful to accuse people taking sensible steps to preserve these traditions of being "greedy" "judgmental" and racist. And calling these accusations "The voice of reason" just adds insult to injury.
What a bunch of dishonest rationalization and double speak....
Sorry to rant but it's been bugging me all week...
-
Well, thata was worth waiting for MP.