NAFPS Forum

Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: Barnaby_McEwan on December 26, 2007, 05:51:27 pm

Title: Stefan Klemenc /Neil Greenwood
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on December 26, 2007, 05:51:27 pm
Let's face another fact: your name is not Neil Greenwood but Stefan Klemenc, and you enjoy pretending to be a condor (http://www.kondor.de/condor/tanz/07july07e.html).

Can you please explain why you think this is okay but that a German pretending to be White Buffalo Calf Woman is not okay?
Title: Re: What about to do with Frauds and Plastics?
Post by: Greenwood on December 27, 2007, 12:51:59 am
My full name is Stefan Neil Klemenc - Greenwood (Grünwald).

Lets face the difference: I am not making money with being a Condordancer - people tend to avoid a person which is working with vulture, and be it the way I do it. Vultures are not THAT popular as for example an Eagle is. The animal which I "pretend" to be is one I am very familiar with, being a learned falconer and worked with these animals some years in the (former) greatest falconry of europe in Bad Wörishofen - you may ask Falconmaster Herbert Schmidt about this and about the relationship these birds established with me, before I actually had any inclination of working spiritually with them. He actually gifted me the feathers I used, which were collected over a timespan of 20 years. The dance does not have any relations to the cultures of South America except the animal which lives there. In order to avoid a possible pre-justice by Natives here I registered with my alternate name I always use in english speaking communities. I am not pretending being an Native American (this time from South America) - on the contrary: I emphasize the cultural indepent way I am going there. I am part of an european line of geomantics and magicians (handed down by my father and grandfather). Until recently we avoided even using the internet as medium because the prosecution we still have to face from church and many institutions adjacent to this power-structure.

The only thing you can blame me is using a quechua term for describing the entity I am dancing: "Apu Kuntur" is the best-fitting term, with many levels of meaning, which describes the entity best. The german terms simply do not fit. I am completely aware of this terms origin in the quechua language. If you have a better one I am open to it. Maybe the term "possession trance" is not too familiar to you - I do not remember much American Indians familiar with such practics. In european magic (okay, more precisely: in southern german and in traditional evocatory magic) this is part of the daily practice. During the last years I was contacted and worked with some physicians and parapsychologicians because I do actually manifest things which cannot be explained by suggestion or hypnosis. The bad thing is that these incidents are not controllable in the way of being replicable under laboratory conditions.

Regarding "pretending being a Condor" there is a vital difference: I am NOT pretending this - simply put: try to find only ONE feather of this animal or try to get one. You simply are going to fail. Try to get into possession trance and then blame me again of pretending something. If you think I am an Fraud or something: I have translated (as only person!) the old Declaration of War against exploitation of Native Spirituality and Rituals. I am not offering any rituals which are original Native in origin. I simply walk my way. When you do not know anything about this kind of trance - keep your ball low because I am specialized in this kind of works.

This Buffallo Woman simply pretends being something that does not exist in reality AND actually is a Native American mythological concept. She makes money with this and thus exploits a cultural aspect of the Natives over there. Of course you can say similar things about the Condor - BUT: the Condor is an animal and no mythological figure. You cannot deny that the Condor exists as animal and is short of being extincted. The White Buffallo Woman on the other side is clearly a pure mythological concept (technically). She does not exist in real-life. BTW she has learned from another Fraud: M. Kohfink or "Tacansina" - a person which avoids my because I am still hunting him down because he is an imposter, IMHO.

Another thing you may find strolling my Website: Since I am in the WWW sometimes artisans contact me, or I am contacting them. One of them is an Aymara (Roberto Mamani Mamani) whose pictures I am presenting in the Condor's section. If he is a Fraud or NewAgePlastic I really do not know - I hope not: he creates really good art.

If I would exploit South American Cultures I would not have had the guts of registering here. I can defend my position and stand for it. Can YOU do the same?

Yours,

Neil Greenwood.

P.S.: A better overview you find here: www.kondor.de/condor/tanz_e.html
Title: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Greenwood on December 27, 2007, 01:29:04 am
I want to clarify another thing: I registered here primarily because I found Sarangarel posted here. A board where she was active is something which interests me - it was a shock for me that she passed away. I lost contact in 2003 or so, it was hard to keep also because she was living in a region with instable connections. I myself had much difficulties to face during that time and had only contact once after this with her father, which must have taken place short before her passing away, because we chatted about total different stuff.

After I realized that she is no longer among the living my acitivities here are focussing on that what I do here in germany: hunting Frauds and Plastics. As it goes I may have found another one, I am still investigating this one, but actually I do only have his name "Spirit Bear" and some informations that he lives in germany. I am behind this one, as I was with Xoko and Harner (anyway: thank to your board I now clearly can distance myself from these persons). Here I find many answers on persons and frauds active here in germany. I had my fight with followers of Swift Deer as well as with Sonja Emilia, who sells Ayahuasca ceremonies and Sweat-Lodges (for 500 bucks! when I remember this correctly). I realized that it does not help much telling the truth: people tend to ignore it. So I asked this question about what to do with these frauds.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

P.S.: Would you please restore the initial question?
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: educatedindian on December 27, 2007, 01:53:35 am
We've had people come here who were clearly frauds before. (I'm not saying you are, wait a moment until I get to that.) Often many frauds scan the internet anxiously either looking for any attention paid to them, or wanting to shut down any criticism or expose with threats of lawsuits, etc. In several case we've had frauds like Scarlet McKinney or Nicholas Spence desperately trying to convince themselves, more than anyone else, that what they were doing was somehow not fraudulent or exploitative.

I don't see any sign of you making money or gathering up a group of followers. But you clearly do intend for the site to be a "how to" primer for other would be shamans. And you believe in some of the very plastics you claim to oppose.

Quoting at length from one of the worst frauds, Ted Andrews.
http://www.kondor.de/condor/totem_e.html

And you are looking for an eagle dancer to fulfill what you imagine the prophecies about eagles and condors to be.
http://www.kondor.de/condor/eagledance.html

This claim and this attempt to misuse the prophecies for your personal wishes would get you a lot of argument from just about anyone Native.

"This dance is a spiritual thing and does not belong to any tradition. The manifestation of the Spirit of the Eagle and the Spirit of the Condor during the dance is a personal vision."

Neither is true. Clearly the prophecies come from very specific longstanding tribal traditions. And I don't mean the Nuage version that makes a lot of unlikely claims about the Quechua village of Qero, often mistakenly called "Qero Indians" by Nuagers.

Much of your site does claim to be about South American Indian traditions and prophecies, and the impression most readers would get is that you claim to be trained in South American Indian traditions, dances, and "shamanism." Perhaps you don't intend that to be, but that's the way your site comes across.

Again, so far I don't see any signs that your claim of opposing plastics is insincere. But I do think you still have much to learn.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Greenwood on December 27, 2007, 02:49:22 am
Okay, the third attempt. Two times my Notebook made a mockery of my attempts writing.

First off: I did not knew Andrews being flagged as Fraud. Thanks for this bit. I am deleting his passage tomorrow.

In fact only a tiny part of my website refers to SouthAmerican traditions. I have a large section dealing with a certain part of Siberian Traditions (being again the only one translating old stories from shamans into english) and of shamanic techniques in general. Another one actually emphasizes my own roots. BTW: Never ever I have claimed being trained by S-A-Natives. I do not speak Spanish or Quechua (any dialect) well enough. I am clarifying this, too. Thank you again.

Yes, I refer to the prophecy (and I do not have any idea what you meant with "Not the Nuage-Version of it" because I do not know any other variation of the prophecy then the one I am refering to) - and when you actually try to understand it you are going to find that the prophecy is clear in its formulations but open to interpretation. Face the fact that until today (and these are nearly 10 years now) NO Native ever complained about what I do in any form. You are in fact the first one actually having a problem there and telling me about this. And my Website is well-known. In fact  the few reactions I DID receive during the years from them were positive in nature. There were no accusation of any kind until now (which I expected taking place sometimes - I wondered already not finding myself discussed here).

The prophecy is very clear in formulation and content. So what is your problem (or that of any Native) when I try to find an Eagle-Dancer with whom I can perform this dance? I simply have not found anyone meeting the requirements. That alone tells a story, until today I had rather bad experiences with these Fraud-Indians around. It IS true that an Eagle or a Condor is not interested in any cultural interpretation, these are powers without any cultural obligations to any Nation or Tribe and no prophecy can change this. These spirits would circle in the sky even when there are no humans at all below watching them. I have stated clearly my intents. I have to live with the accusations made by you and maybe by others - but I am not going to change one bit of my vision or plan only because you or others think I would misuse a prophecy with such great indications. I would betray my vision and my life and rather prefer to die instead of changing this plan. If there is an Eagle Dancer around capable of entering such a deep trance then he is going to contact me sometimes because he or she actually realize what I am up to do. Maybe he or she does come from a part of the world we both actually do not have in mind? What do you think the prophecy is all about?
 
To my knowledge this prophecy seems to be known in other Nations, too. A certain variation is the one of the Q'ero village. A clearance would help, of course, because I am not that sure about this point.

"This claim and this attempt to misuse the prophecies for your personal wishes would get you a lot of argument from just about anyone Native." - Well, then be it this way. I can only repeat what I have written since I am no liar or imposter of anything. I live with the Condors Spirit and cannot live against my spirituality. Part of this spirituality is dancing the Condor. If there is any Native around who can do the same - I would be glad to know him or her personally. I did not want to do this dance openly. In fact I did it in secret for seven years. Only recently - since 2006 - I am performing it in front of peoples who want to attend there (by the ways: I do not charge anything - this performance is a gift for anyone who wishes to be there).

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

P.S.: Modifications are done.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: barbara on December 27, 2007, 02:36:17 pm
Dear Stefan or Neil or elsewhat,
on your homepage you very often quote Paul Uccusic. He belongs as many others to Michael Harners Shamanic Foundation. You should read the different threads of Harner and others working together with him. Maybe you and weissebuffelfrau aren't so different....
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: educatedindian on December 27, 2007, 02:44:22 pm
"I refer to the prophecy (and I do not have any idea what you meant with "Not the Nuage-Version of it" because I do not know any other variation of the prophecy then the one I am refering to) - and when you actually try to understand it you are going to find that the prophecy is clear in its formulations but open to interpretation."

Almost everything out there on the net about the prophecy comes from Nuage sources, nearly all of which I would not trust.
 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=eagle+and+condor+prophecy&btnG=Google+Search

And often that leads to some pretty bizarre claims, with self appointed "shamans".
http://ayahuasca.tribe.net/thread/a7b95ff8-bae1-4121-b3f5-5a2b93e9e43b

If you take a look at that link you'll see alleged elders and curanderos arguing back and forth, each one less credible the more you read. Wild claims that Lakota, Navajo, and Cherokee traditions include this prophecy, none of which is true as far as I know.

My personal favorite was the guy jokingly calling himself Rumbling Thunder Butt, which none of them seemed to get.



A couple interesting things from that last link:
"Aramis
Re: True Union of Eagle & Condor
Today, 1:15 AM
Actually the whole eagle/condor thing is a bit weird. The sacred bird of the Amazon is the harpy eagle, not the condor. That's a mountain bird, and since mountain shamans use huachuma, then ayahuasca wouldn't figure into it. Still, I suppose that a 'union between the eagle and the eagle' just doesn't have the same marketing appeal. Speaking of marketing, is it just me or does some of the blurb on his profile sound like bahai stuff?
It all sounds like twatty, quasi-mystical, new-age crap to me, anyway. Is there any money in it? :) "



One of the self proclaimed elders was then exposed twisting the prophecy to suit his Bahai beliefs.

-----
Apparently "Seven Thunders" believes his tale about his Native American origins won't come back to haunt him. Here is what he told me in email about his actual decent on February 13th:

"Regrettably, though mostly of Lebanese decent, my family uprooted from Lebanon (Miziara Region - NE of Tripoli, and about 25 minutes from Khalil Gibrans home) and relocated to the Caribean Islands. Hence, my first language is Spanish...I have only begun learning Arabic in more recent years."

The explicitly Baha'i angle of his work was also spelled out in the same email when he stated the following:

"So back to the essentials. I was introduced to the Bab and
Baha'u'llah completely by accidently back in 1993; however, as I later
understood, not by the mainstreem Baha'is. There was something about
this Doctrine that rung true, so I started to investigate. By 1994, I
was interested in exploring more deeply and went to learn more of the
Baha'i doctrine from the teacher of the person who had introduced me.
Oh dear God, what was that for! Before I knew it I was caught between
a student and a teacher both making claims to the same thing and
spewing venom on one another. This before I hardly had any deepening
in these matters, having come from a mostly esoteric/occult
background.

By 1996, while working with certain native american tribes I took an
apprenticeship with a Lokata Medicine Man. Little did I know but his
primary sponsor in the mundane things of life was a Native American
Baha'i family - Mainstream Baha'i. My apprenticeship lasted until
1999, however my relations with this family lasted until 2003. Though
there were times when I would pose questions to them regarding the
Baha'i Faith, most of my dealings were related to the medicine ways.
The main reason for this is that given the expereinces I had already
had with 'Baha'is', I thought it best to observe and study quiety and
privately. More-over there was such incongruity between what they did
and what they preached, that I thought it prudent.

Off the chronology, I will also mention that in 1998, I went to live
in Egypt for a few months, and at that time took the opportunity to
visit Haifa & etc...Obviously not as a Baha'i 'Pilgrim', but just a
regular person interested in learning. When I arrived at Akka, the
day I went to the Shrine of Ali Nuri, Ruhiya Khanum was there
visiting. At first the guards were incredibly rude to me, and
suggested that I go visit the gardens as that was what people
preferred to do there.

What this guard did not know, is that while in Egypt, the medicine man
and his Baha'i apprentice brought me an internal memo from the Baha'is
of Canada written back in 1984 by Ruhiya Khanum. In this letter she
discussed the significance of the Native Americans to the unfoldment
of the Work as well as the beauty and significance of the Peace Pipe.
She also admoinishes those Persian Baha'is who as she says,
"Continuously miss the Bus" in there total lack of respect for the
customs of the Natives. She instructs the Persians to not as so much
as go near a Native if they are unable to respect them.

I found the guard to be so calous, that I pulled out this letter and
began to read it to the him. Naturally, he fell silent, and called
upon the Shrine Keeper. The Shrine steward was a nice enough man, who
told me that after Ruhiya left he would allow me into the shrine
alone. I showed him the letter, and the Peace Pipe which I carried.
I think this is a pretty significant story...Ruhiya died about 1-1 1/2
years later.

By 2000, I was introduced to Grandmother Ayahuasca, and this changed
everything as it represented a unification of many things in my life.
Then, in June of 2001, something very significant happened, which in
my view is the True fullfilment of Mustaghath. Around the first week
of June of 2001 I began to unexpectly have very profound dreams that
demanded I persue what I refer to as a golden thread. I researched,
and research and researched for weeks, until I found the Prophecy of
Mustaghath, and I knew this was what I was looking for...But I did not
know why. So I kept at it, until I found the answer, which is this:
On June 21, 2001, the Summer Solstice, the first Total Solar Eclipse
of the Millenium Occured. For all those that debated whether 2000 or
2001 was the first year of the millenium, this provided the answer.
In 2000 there were NO full solar eclipses, and the very first Solar
Eclipse of 2001 occurred exactly on the Summer Solstice. This
represented a seeding into the Earth of a new Current of Light - the
Light of He who is Invoked.

During this period, I was shown a prophecy of a great cataclysm, and
that it would occur within "ONE QUARTER turn of the Sun" from
Mustaghath...Namely by September 21, 2001. I told several of the
elders and my family about the prophecy. We all know what happened.
Needless to say, that even with "fore-knowledge", if we can call it
that, it struck me as a great surprise."

Being a soft Guenonian (a somewhat devotee to the writings of Rene Guenon) I am generally suspicious of anything that smacks remotely of counter-initiatic inversion or counterfeit esotericism, and when we have a white Arab boy trying to talk the talk of a curandero-shaman, I am doubly so. As such your own suspicions are well placed. It seems he has been doing this quite a lot with other people as well, which says to me he is fishing for disciples. Beware of this individual. Spiritual predator is written all over this one here...Scam is an understatement.

How is that for your 7th Thunder, Lobo??
-----


You asked about the Qero. I would not trust most of what is said about that village anymore than I would trust most of what is claimed about Sedona here in the US. There are a huge number of dubious claims, most done for money or to impress outsiders, based on the false assumption that the Qeros  were isolated for five centuries and thus somehow "purer" Indians or Incans.


"what is your problem (or that of any Native) when I try to find an Eagle-Dancer with whom I can perform this dance?"

Picture this:

A white guy with an interest in shamanism tells a Native elder (or more likely asks young mestizos who he's come into contact with, who in turn pass along the message) that he knows a lot about the prophecy and would like to be part of it. Not just that, but he wants a sacred traditional dance mixed together with his own new dance.

Can you imagine me going up to a Catholic priest and saying this?

"Hey, I know all about how you Christians view lambs and doves. I've got a new version of mass I'd like to do with you. Just turn over one of your altar boys to me. I'd like to hand out my own communion wafers mixed with yours. Mine are my own recipe."

How do you think he would look at me?

Mixing of traditions is not something to be done casually. A change in ceremony would be done carefully ***if it were to ever come at all***.

You mentioned that you've had bad experiences with plastics. I think they are likely to be the only ones interested, and for all the wrong reasons. You probably have had things like this happen:

A mestizo cab driver overhears what you want done and thinks "Who do I know who speaks a few words of Quechua that will impress this guy? I know! That old guy on the corner who hasn't worked in weeks. He'll do. Let's see how much money we can get out of him."
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Greenwood on December 27, 2007, 03:03:41 pm
Barbara: My first contacts with Paul were in 1991 and spanned till 1993. I am still in personal contact with Paul, who is aging more then 80 years by now. Back then I did not know better. As I mentioned I am reworking many parts - and I am very critical about the FSS today: they sell a three-years-program in which they actually sell a Native Ritual (that one in which you are bondaged and being freed by the spirits. I think this is the shaking tent ritual) - I got that information some months ago which was the final push for me distancing me much more clearly. Today I do not recommend the FSS anymore. I have to rework more then 900 html-pages in two languages and I can tell you: there is much to do. Ever tried to do that besides your daily activities and job?

New stuff regarding Viola: Currently my actions are fruitful because her followers begin to question her. Some are leaving already.

The point is that I actually do not copy or do anything like that - I am pretty sure that in the Andes there are no possession-trance-states known. Well, that may be a blind-spot and the real situation is otherwise. But I clearly stated all that already that it is by no means a traditional dance I perform. Okay, some guys cannot read and are unable to think, too. But these are everywhere in all colors available ... - with this kind of stuff I am rather used to deal on a daily base.

I know what you are meaning - but I am no silly White-Ass who cannot distinguish between real claims and Wannabes. Unfortunately the most Indians journeying here in Germany are listed here ... - most of them I already had in suspicion. For example Xoko. He is clever enough to fool many here. Another one is Villoldo who is avoiding me, also this Tacansina whom I disqualified for myself already in 92.

What would you do when you would be this bishop when some indian appears out of nowhere, actually doing the stuff which YOU should do but you can't because you are bound in traditions? I am not altering any traditional dance in the first place: When there actually WERE any trance-dance of the Condor in the Andes this dance is since long time no part of their traditions anymore - with the little reminder that I may err here because I simply do not have any deeper knowledge on this point. To answer this question: I am not doing this stuff, I do not conduct mesas or similar things belonging in the Andes. I would not appear before this bishop - he is of no interest to me because I would not know his rites and all. If he would ask me about his prophecy-text I would reply: "Look, I am walking my path. Your prophecy gave me some really interesting ideas about a kind of dance - take it as a honoring of the content of this prophecy or leave it - because I am up to do this dance anyway: it is my life as it is your life to take care for your community. We are of total different cultural backgrounds. Look - I am a Native here in my lands and you in your lands. I respect what you do and believe"

Okay, after supper I am fit enough again to click through the links. I am prepared of reading awkward things, but I need some cups of Darjeeling first before I can digest this.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

P.S.: For the sake of clarity I remain with Neil Greenwood. It is as real as my other name (the second half) - BTW: I do not have any problems when f.e. Japanese people celebrate X-Mas or New Years eve. And they do not even pretend being christian (nor do I).
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Moma_porcupine on December 27, 2007, 06:18:49 pm
GW
Quote
The animal which I "pretend" to be is one I am very familiar with, being a learned falconer
GW
Quote
you may ask Falconmaster Herbert Schmidt about this and about the relationship these birds established with me, before I actually had any inclination of working spiritually with them.

Neil, there are no Condors in Europe, so in reality, contrary to your claims here, you have absolutely no real life relationship with Condors.

GW
Quote
The dance does not have any relations to the cultures of South America except the animal which lives there.
GW
Quote
The only thing you can blame me is using a quechua term for describing the entity I am dancing: "Apu Kuntur" is the best-fitting term, with many levels of meaning, which describes the entity best. The german terms simply do not fit.
GW
Quote
only a tiny part of my website refers to SouthAmerican traditions.
GW
Quote
Yes, I refer to the prophecy
GW
Quote
The prophecy is very clear in formulation and content. So what is your problem (or that of any Native) when I try to find an Eagle-Dancer with whom I can perform this dance?
GW
Quote
It IS true that an Eagle or a Condor is not interested in any cultural interpretation, these are powers without any cultural obligations to any Nation or Tribe and no prophecy can change this. These spirits would circle in the sky even when there are no humans at all below watching them.

So you understand you are using a prophesy which is attributed to South American or American Indian traditions, but then you claim the powers which you believe you are possessed by, have no cultural obligations to any Nation or Tribe .

GW
Quote
the Condor is an animal and no mythological figure.

The one you believe yourself in touch with is a mythological figure, not a real animal .

GW
Quote
I live with the Condors Spirit and cannot live against my spirituality. Part of this spirituality is dancing the Condor.
GW
Quote
The point is that I actually do not copy or do anything like that - I am pretty sure that in the Andes there are no possession-trance-states known.
GW
Quote
Maybe the term "possession trance" is not too familiar to you - I do not remember much American Indians familiar with such practics. In european magic (okay, more precisely: in southern german and in traditional evocatory magic) this is part of the daily practice.
GW
Quote
Try to get into possession trance and then blame me again of pretending something.
GW
Quote
When you do not know anything about this kind of trance - keep your ball low because I am specialized in this kind of works

I know that possesion trances are considered exceedingly dangerous by both European and other traditions. It is like opening the door of your house - anything might come in, and what does may not be what a person believes it to be. I know people who have had very bad experiences messing with these things . The cultures that do work with such things almost all have very stringent protective protocols in place . Your comment that the powers you believe you are in touch with have no cultural obligations doesn't sound like there is any protective cultural protocols in place , as that is what those cultural obligations are there for. The fact that you are imagining you are working with spirits which have no affiliation to either your culture or the part of the world where you live , does nothing to reassure me you are involved with something that is real, or is what you believe it is .   

GW
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The White Buffallo Woman on the other side is clearly a pure mythological concept (technically). She does not exist in real-life.

GW
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This Buffallo Woman simply pretends being something that does not exist in reality AND actually is a Native American mythological concept.

You think the condor spirit you are imagining you are in touch with is less a mythological concept than White Buffalo Woman ?

I don't think you mean to be insulting, but you do seem to be having a hard time telling the difference between things that are real, and things that are in your imagination.  And just being able to point at other people who are involved in claiming things that aren't real , doesn't automatically mean that what you believe is....

GW
Quote
BTW: I do not have any problems when f.e. Japanese people celebrate X-Mas or New Years eve. And they do not even pretend being christian (nor do I).

Well for one thing Christmas has turned into the Grand Ceremony of Consumerism, so it is easy for people who aren't Christian but are Consumers to celebrate it. And New Years has nothing at all to do with Christianity.

Christianity as a religion strongly distances itself from "the flesh", so by it's very nature it doesn't have strong ties to the land or any particular community or culture, and , as a belief system , it is easily transfered to any community which is willing to detach itself from real life in the area people really live. This practice of putting matters of the flesh on the back burner has some things in common with the basic New Age philosophy, and also to imagining a "real" connection with real animals that live on an entirely different continent.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but what you believe does not sound real to me, and if it is real in some way , it might be dangerous.   
Title: Re: What about to do with Frauds and Plastics?
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on December 27, 2007, 06:30:47 pm
I am not making money with being a Condordancer...The dance does not have any relations to the cultures of South America except the animal which lives there...I emphasize the cultural indepent way I am going there...I am not offering any rituals which are original Native in origin.

Rrrrright...so none of the hippies and bemused schoolchildren you do your dance in front of think it has anything to do with South American Indians? Despite the Quechua title you've given yourself, despite the South American vulture feathers? They all think, "Yep, that's a German cultural tradition all right"?

As EducatedIndian has pointed out, your site gives quite a different impression. You are recklessly misleading people and you protestations remind me of a recently-deceased English comedian, Bernard Manning, who told a lot of racist jokes. He and his apologists protested that they were only harmless jokes, not meant to be taken seriously: he liked black people really, what's the problem? Unfortunately many of his fans took the jokes seriously because they enjoyed having their racist beliefs confirmed. Similarly, for those who hold comfortably stereotypical beliefs about Indians and other indigenous people, your antics and your site confirm and reinforce them.

About Viola Flambé, the miraculous German White Buffalo Calf Woman, Annika asked 'since her people has waited for years for her return, why is she hiding out in Germany?'

I have similar questions for you: why would a condor-spirit choose you? I imagine it would prefer to spend its time convincing Andean farmers not to shoot and poison real condors, perhaps enlisting the help of people who actually live in the Andes. Meanwhile many European raptor species are critically endangered. How do you help them?

Quote
If I would exploit South American Cultures I would not have had the guts of registering here.

Plenty of people have been absolutely astounded and outraged to find themselves criticised here. After all, they're spiritual - so how could they possibly do anything wrong?
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Greenwood on December 27, 2007, 09:54:23 pm
"Rrrrright...so none of the hippies and bemused schoolchildren you do your dance in front of think it has anything to do with South American Indians? Despite the Quechua title you've given yourself, despite the South American vulture feathers? They all think, "Yep, that's a German cultural tradition all right"?

Oh, I would eagerly dance in front of schoolchildren as in April. [Personal insults deleted.] I tell them about the Andean Condor and what this bird does. I tell them about my dance, yes. But one thing you do not see and will never see: the dreaming eyes and the laughter of them when they feel the Condor's energy. Yeah - you said I am imagin all this. Then you attended one of my dances? No? [Personal insults deleted.]

"Neil, there are no Condors in Europe, so in reality, contrary to your claims here, you have absolutely no real life relationship with Condors."

Maybe you overread the fact that I has been working with these birds some years - I am a falconer and the Condors are real, as the feathers are (and I have given the name of my falconmaster, who is retired by now). I was not aware in the first time what was going on, but these birds really loved me. You are right that this bird is not a endemic bird here in europe, but I did not choose it. You need not believe me there. [Personal insults deleted.] No one thinks that that what I am doing is german tradition. [Personal insults deleted.] And it is just soo easy to get Condorfeathers, yes. You only have to ask one and the bird wholeheartedly gives away all feathers. Yah, my own feathers are all fantasy - you have found it out! You did not read my Website. This is obvious.

In the Andes there are no such rites which I perform here in germany. I have already written all what is to say. You demonstrate that you simply see the flag "Whitey pretending to be ...." and thats it. [Personal insults deleted.]

I do not know whether there is anyone in the Andes who is chosen by the Condor as I am. So - if you know anyone over there, contact him. I want this. You don't know anyone?

"The one you believe yourself in touch with is a mythological figure, not a real animal."

Yea, and Condors are not real animals. OMG.

"So you understand you are using a prophesy which is attributed to South American or American Indian traditions, but then you claim the powers which you believe you are possessed by, have no cultural obligations to any Nation or Tribe."

Repeat: An animal is an animal is an animal. I have written down what I know about the things I learned and still learning. [Personal insults deleted.]

Concerning your [personal insult deleted] comment regarding possession rites: as I have written. Keep your ball low. You underestimate people like me strongly. Not everything what I do you find openly in the Internet. And you demonstrate why.

"I don't think you mean to be insulting, but you do seem to be having a hard time telling the difference between things that are real, and things that are in your imagination.  And just being able to point at other people who are involved in claiming things that aren't real , doesn't automatically mean that what you believe is...."

Thanks for your medical diagnosis of shizophrenia. Ever had the idea that YOU are wrong?

" ... and if it is real in some way , it might be dangerous. "

Yes - absolutely. [Numerous personal insults.]

I prefer a discussion with respect of each other. You are lacking respect. You actually have shown your worst side. Listen: here in germany there are real dangerous persons on the way which imposter being indian and all that. They sell their soul for money and your rituals for $$ (sorry €€). Guys like you make it rather difficult for me to find sympathy for your folk or tribe. Your name is scottish. McEwan is no indian name. You say that I might be dangerous. Do you really want me to be dangerous?

I was harsh, too. Thank yourself for that.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

[Al's note: We don't reward childishness in here. You don't help anyone by losing your temper. Barnaby's questions were perfectly reasonable. Why you only lost your temper with his questions and not anyone else's is a question you'll have to answer for yourself.

And incidentally, he is neither Native nor Scottish, though some Natives do have Scottish names.]
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Greenwood on December 27, 2007, 10:09:13 pm
"I have similar questions for you: why would a condor-spirit choose you? I imagine it would prefer to spend its time convincing Andean farmers not to shoot and poison real condors, perhaps enlisting the help of people who actually live in the Andes. Meanwhile many European raptor species are critically endangered. How do you help them?"

The Condor is being poisoned by lead and DDT in the Andes and not really treated as it should be. You know that - great point to you. He chose me and gave me the feathers for the dance. It is not your problem, but mine. In the Andes the Condor is feared and is associated with thunderstorms and of course the mountains. Maybe it chose another one in the Andes. I do not know. And be sure of this: HERE I would never ever give any answer to the question: Why? Ask yourself why this is so. Read your own posting and you know.

In contrast to you I did learn how to deal with birds of prey and know what is possible and what not. So I have to help all species around which are endangered because I am spiritual, or what? Guy, what strange ideas you have. There are people around who are professional in doing this. I do not know what you do for a living - want to make my job? I am helping old and dying people living through their last days and weeks. Of course a really job a misleading person like I am can dream of, with my Megabucks I earn with all my dances and so on.

In your eyes I am a Fraud and a Plastic and nothing I am writing can convince you otherwise. So much is clear and I know one of my enemies. Don't think I hit the panic-button now. I am used to it, but usually from the Fraud-Site.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Moma_porcupine on December 27, 2007, 11:20:51 pm
GW
Quote
Maybe you overread the fact that I has been working with these birds some years - I am a falconer and the Condors are real, as the feathers are (and I have given the name of my falconmaster, who is retired by now). I was not aware in the first time what was going on, but these birds really loved me. You are right that this bird is not a endemic bird here in europe, but I did not choose it.
GW
Quote
You did not read my Website. This is obvious

Neil it's true I didn't have time to read all your website, and I am just commenting on the information you posted here.  If there is somewhere on your website a story about caged Andean Condors living in Germany that you made friends with, along with some falcons,  I apologize for thinking you don't have a real relationship with any real Condors - but that is as far as my apology extends.

In the world as I know it, what you have said is not likely to be "real".

Whether or not you have known real condors ( and I'm still not clear on this as i don't have time to search out that part of your story) I think I am being fair in assuming the condor spirit and possesion dance you refer to, cannot possibly involve real condors, and what you are doing is based on something you believe. This does not sound real to me.  I mean, I am friends with my cat, and my cat is real,  but if i start being possesed by a cat spirit and dancing that... mmm .... well my cat might be real, but that doesn't mean the rest of it is...

I don't think you are a plastic or a fraud or that you have shcizoprenia ~ I just think you are probably confused. Something I have been myself many times in my life.

Just my opinion.   Heck what do I know. LOL

Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Greenwood on December 28, 2007, 10:43:11 am
Hello!

I am far from being confused. I am doing possession-trance since 1994 or so, after I had my initiations in the line of magic which is actually practicing this. If I would be confused then no one ever would have felt anything, seen anything or learnt anything from the dances I conduct since 1998. Since 2006 I am dancing in public, before that only in secret and not public. If I would be confused in any instance my fratres and sorores would eagerly take immediate actions in grounding and earthening me. No - I am not openly telling here about details of them. The dance which is being taped in the link of Barnaby was not the best one, I have to admit. There were many problems you cannot see on the Vid which prevented a prolonged trance-state and I flickered sometimes.

Since 1991 I was never felt ill, had no diseases, accidents or other things which had sprung into my path. Everything regarding the Condor (its Spirit) which is part of my life goes on smoothely, easily and quick with beauty. People knowing me personally or in my dances actually experience that. Comparing my life with others I consider myself a lucky one and am totally aware of this. But I had to die in 1989 for that. I am "twiceborn", died in 1989 in Rome on the Main Railwaystation. The medics brought me back but I was never the same after that: I was stone-dead and remember everything. Condor called me back then in this situation. The dance does not invoke a certain once-living Condor but the Power (or Spirit) of the Condor itself. As I have written I do not know anyone else who does this, worldwide. I would be glad to know that there ARE some in S-America or elsewhere - still waiting since 1998.

I also have pointed out that I do not publicly in the Internet share everything I do. In fact it is only a little window I opened - one which is illuminating only a little part of what I am and what I do.

What I do is considered "not real" in many worlds - but in as many other worlds it is considered "real" and "fact". I am aware of that and can life with that because people considering that what I do as "not real" are right in their own world thinking this. I am not blaming them for this except when they have the illusion of thinking that I have to share their opinion in order to be "correct" in their world. I do not fit in there.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

P.S.: Thanks for editing, yesterday I had much other things to do and simply lost my patience. Not everything was an insult you deleted but the core remained. I am an post-posting-editor as you can see.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Moma_porcupine on December 28, 2007, 08:40:43 pm
When you claim your personal beliefs have some connection with indigenous traditions and prophesies, your peculiar personal beliefs benifit from being associated with beliefs that are much more respected and credible. 

This connection is mainly what doesn't seem real to me.

I think you also missed what Barnaby was saying , which is that when people mix their own rather bizarre personal beliefs with what they claim are indigenous traditions, this might lend an air of respectability to beliefs most people would find incredible , but this false claim of association also has a tendency to damage the credibility of Native traditions. Many indigenous people feel this is a form of exploitation .
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Greenwood on December 28, 2007, 10:22:27 pm
I would agree - but: Some years ago I got very positive feedbacks about the page on the Banderas and the National Symbols from S-America Natives, for example. The other short but nice contact was with Mamani, who also (when I remember this correctly) had only positive words. Occasional contacts with normal Indios from Peru which actually happen infrequently in personal contact or via Internet also are positive. None of them plastics or frauds. Hell, many of them literally do not know anything anymore of the Condor except that it is a vulture. Since 1998 I never have achieved bad or any feedback which would harden the fact of exploitation.

So, as far as I know it is no damage I am doing to the credibility of any Native tradition there, except when I distort too much the content of the prophecy. Okay - when the core of the prophecy is actually total different from that what I have written I need urgent clear informations.

Reading through the links I was literally shocked - there is damage done. Real damage. I have altered the intro-page of the Condor-section to emphasize the personal approach and this is to be enough. You cannot expect much more from my side at this moment. " ... Within these pages I am referring to an ancient prophecy of the people of the Andes. I have to point out that I myself did not have any deeper contacts or relations to these proud and beautiful people and my interpretations of the prophecy may not be congruent with their own. My own point of view is largely based on personal insights gained by the deep relation I have with the Spirit of the Condor." - When people not even can read this and understand it, I cannot help and refer to an english-course. After all: No one else in the WWW actually emphasizes the personal approach.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: TrishaRoseJacobs on December 31, 2007, 11:40:19 am
Alright, just going to give you a tip Neil. You seem like a nice guy and this is well intentioned, so don't take it the wrong way but from the way I was raised - someone popping up outta the blue and talking about what sounds like possession etc and being really quite open about it (which I'm sure you think is good, and I'm sure a great many people do appreciate) would be considered a witch - which is not a good thing. Such a person would either be dangerous, crazy or both. I'm only saying it to let you know that the reason why you may find that some native people don't accept you as the open, spiritual guy you clearly try to present yourself as - is because you could be creeping them out. Honestly speaking - that kind of thing creeps me out. I find that kind of thing very off-putting myself and that has little to do with whether I think they are an out and out fraud or not.

Just suggesting that if you want to get along better - maybe you oughtta tone it down a bit, it could make other people less uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Greenwood on January 01, 2008, 01:57:02 am
I know what you try to tell me. Thank you for this note. I was not aware of this, but I have to reply on your post.

Being called a witch is no offense here in germany anymore (I am prefering to be called "Bannsänger", "Kondortänzer" or "Zauberer", Witch or "Hexe" is a female connotated term), well, at least to the scene I am living in. Not to the conservative catholics or materialistic ones, however. I am in the WWW since 1998 and only popped up here outta the blue *g*, you could have found me easily using Google, more then 60 Percent of my visitors do.

Deep-trance is one of the things I am openly talking about here. Many here are not even remote in contact with the kind of spiritual and magical practice I am talking about, that is right. This is not much different in germany. (Un?)fortunately most (if not all) of the so-called NA-"shamanic practitioners" or NA-"shamans" here in Europe (and surely in USA, too) avoid this trance-type. Hell, when a siberian shaman popps up here, actually telling you the same stuff - what would you do then? I simply do not want talking to anyone having real problems with this, it would be of no help to them or myself and simply is a waste of time.

If I would not have been asked those questions I would never have talked about this - but here are some around who asked very personal questions to me which demanded very clear answers. Would you have remained silent or lied being in my position? I tried to be concealed here, exactly because of that what you are writing: using an uncommon name I rarely utilize and avoiding mentioning anything in connection with this. I was being asked here like a prisoner on court. I AM dangerous, and I do not deny this - I do not deny that I am capable of being really nasty. This "Love & Light" Bull.... is not my stuff. But it is the same when you are owning a knife. You can use it for cutting a leaf of bread or to kill your enemy. In order to heal or repair some things you must know how to accomplish them. This was not the easy-way I had to learn this in my past, you can bet on this. I had to explain myself and my relation to Condor's Spirit because I was being asked to.

I do not tone anything down. I did this in my first years. "Political Correctness" is a unknown term in my live, because I was tested to my life by the spirits for seven years after I was been revived in 1989. I am doing a unique thing and I stand with my life for it, otherwise it would not be possible and I would not be here, alife and healthy. I am a nice and open guy with whom you can have a really nice time when being around here in old Germany. Nothing scaring or demonic stuff, evil witchcraft or so. This stuff is far below that what I am living and doing.

Yours and a happy New Year 2008!

Neil Greenwood
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 20, 2008, 07:59:48 pm
Hey, Neil. If you're concerned about the proper use of terms, and the cultures they come from, may I direct your attention to this page on your website: http://www.kondor.de/shaman/samain.html

The Gaelic festival of Samhain, while traditionally a time to honor the dead, has nothing to do with "the spirits of the six directions," a "Roll of Martyrs" or "shamans." These are all foreign concepts to Gaelic traditions.

The whole "Burning Times" mythos comes from Wicca. While persecution and execution of those labeled "witches" certainly happened across Europe and the Americas, the phrase "The Burning Times," along with the fallacy that those executed had anything to do with pre-Christian religions, is a Wiccan construct, dreamed up in the 1940s or thereabouts.  Wicca has appropriated some terms and ideas from Celtic cultures (and Hindu, Buddhist and misunderstood First Nations ones, as well) but Wicca is not Celtic.  While I understand that many people have emotional or psychological reasons for identifying with the poor souls who were murdered in this way, and that is part of why some modern people call themselves "Witches,"  the Wiccan (and some, just odd) material you have on that page has nothing to do with Gaelic cultures. If you are sincere about fighting cultural appropriation, and respecting the meanings of words, I would strongly suggest you take that page down.

Tapadh Leibh
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Leonard on January 20, 2008, 08:34:31 pm
This brings up a question in my mind as how do systems of 'thought' and 'spirituality' evolve ?

I must admit that some of the web-sites in the EU do look pretty wild, but I wonder just as times change and as human consciousness changes; how do concepts of 'spirituality' evolve to keep up with humanity ? ... and how may we test what is 'inspiration' as apposed to 'exploitation' ? ... when can we be sure when 'spirit' speaks and when 'people' speak ?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1180/buber-heschel.htm

The 'great awakening' of the 'ghost dance' among the Lakota  http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/eight/gddescrp.htm  http://www.viewzone.com/wovoka.html  seems to me to be a rapid and drastic change - as I understand that 'traditional' systems of 'spirituality' are slowly built by consensus among the leaders and the elders.

I agree that there is a lot of 'stuff' out there in cyber-space and how may we be really sure of what is 'real' and what is not 'real' ?

Leonard.
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Greenwood on January 20, 2008, 09:05:58 pm
I was wondering, and I am not concerned. Simply curious because I wondered about an Hebrew term appearing in connection with Cherokees.

Regarding your concerns:

The Samain festival itself is not only Gaelic, the term however is. But certainly not the festival per se, which you can find in Europe everywhere. The whole stuff I listed is not older then 20 years. It was invented by the "Riders of the Crystal Storm", which was an active community in the first years of the Internet. I mentioned that origin, however. I do not see any reason to put it down, only because it is not traditional and actually marked as such. The only reason to put it down would be an objection by the original authors or my slowly progressing reworking of the whole website, which actually has several points listed I have to change. I am NO traditionalist, hanging on dusty things which sense is long lost.

Where I do claim to represent Gaelic cultures on my Website?

I think it clear offtopic to discuss this here and an overreaction.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood.
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 20, 2008, 09:10:56 pm
... and how may we test what is 'inspiration' as apposed to 'exploitation' ? ... when can we be sure when 'spirit' speaks and when 'people' speak ?
... ... ...
The 'great awakening' of the 'ghost dance' among the Lakota  ... seems to me to be a rapid and drastic change - as I understand that 'traditional' systems of 'spirituality' are slowly built by consensus among the leaders and the elders.

My opinion: When a change happens within a community of traditional people, it's the business of those people, and especially the elders of that community, to decide whether the change is good or not.

When someone from outside that traditional community wants to change something, and usually from a ceremony they only know about from reading books by outsiders, or by learning from outsiders, they have no right to be performing that ceremony at all, let alone changing it. Their wanting to mess with that ceremony is not growth, it's appropriation/exploitation.

When someone tells me they are imitating a ceremony from a culture they are not part of, because "the spirits told them to", I have to ask why "the spirits" would tell them to do something that just so happens to look like something they read in a Nuage book or on a website. If the actual spirits are actually speaking to them, might not the ceremony look more like what is actually done by the cultures those spirits come from?

And as the Ancestors are incredibly important in many of these cultures, mightn't we be more likely to see legitimate spiritual contacts arising from their own ancestral cultures, as opposed to ones from peoples they've never met and lands where they've never lived?

The people I've met who claim to be doing (their idea of) Indigenous ceremonies they have no connection to, "because the spirits told them" are messed up. They're more likely to be tripping on mushrooms in their condos, banging on a drum they bought at their local Nuage store (or off the Internet) than having any legitimate spirit contacts.

And even "elders" in a community can fuck up, can change, can get off track. I've met people online who I thought were doing it right, only to meet them in person and find out they're frauds. In one case, I'd "known" the person for twelve years, and we'd even published work together. I made some bad mistakes because I thought I could trust what they were telling me. I was wrong. You can't really know about anyone you meet on the Internet. Ceremony doesn't happen on the Internet, it happens in person, in community. If you don't have an in-person community, it's time to find or build one. The Internet is great for spreading information quickly, and finding out about people, but it's not a substitute for interacting in real life.
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Leonard on January 20, 2008, 09:28:05 pm
That is a very good point. I wonder about that one myself. Where do the people in Europe or America get their authority to 'correct' the traditional people about their own ceremonies ?

Leonard.
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 20, 2008, 09:35:12 pm
Where I do claim to represent Gaelic cultures on my Website?

By calling it by a Gaelic name.

The fact that others rip it off, too, doesn't mean it's ok for you to do it. You're here claiming to be concerned about cultural appropriation, so, like others on this board have tried to do, I'm pointing some out to you.

We're talking about misrepresentations here;  it's not off-topic. But as long as we're talking about your website and misrepresentations...

I think the problems with your site, and your stated objectives in being here, have been pointed out well already in this thread: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1448 and others. But now that I've had a chance to look at the site in question, I'd like to add another point:

I am not pretending being an Native American (this time from South America) - on the contrary: I emphasize the cultural indepent way I am going there. I am part of an european line of geomantics and magicians (handed down by my father and grandfather). Until recently we avoided even using the internet as medium because the prosecution we still have to face from church and many institutions adjacent to this power-structure.

Neil, you claim above to have inherited some sort of Germanic tradition in your family (I think that's what you're claiming). The thing is, with pages like this, http://www.kondor.de/runes/runicsham.html , where you stir together pop-culture Rune magic  ("Runic Yoga, Runic Gymnastics") with Harner shamanism and Hindu/Yogic concepts...

Quote
Chakras can be balanced with Sowilo or the Chakra Runes (Berkano: Sahasrara, Ehwaz: Ajna, Mannaz: Vishudda, Laguz: Anahata, Ingwaz: Manipura, Dagaz: Swadhisthana, Othala: Muladhara). I draw the runes over the chakras during auric massage and balancing.

...that sort of stuff is not going to be very convincing to those who are coming from a Germanic polytheistic background, unless they're German Nuagers with no genuine connection to actual, historical or folkloric Germanic traditions. So, while it's clear to all of us that you're misrepresenting South American indigenous traditions, it's also clear that you're not accurately representing Germanic indigenous ones, either.

I would suggest that as long as you're doing this sort of eclectic/salad-bar-spirituality thing, where you're mixing together bits inspired by a variety of cultures, you're not going to find a lot of peace, acceptance  or approval when dealing with traditional people from any of these cultures.

As you are promoting these views on the Internet - where they may be imitated by others - you are, in effect, teaching these things, even if you make no money off it.

So, whether it's on or off topic, most of the stuff on your site is inaccurate and inappropriate, not just the Samhain page. If you're really serious about fighting cultural appropriation, I think you need to look in your own house first.
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Greenwood on January 20, 2008, 10:03:50 pm
I am not mentioning much of my traditions on my Website. I mention practical stuff and own ideas. That much you should have noted already. Ceremonial Magics are quite shunned until today, and certainly the things I learned and practice. Although I have included some things of this on it and planning to do more.

Do you have a problem in practical works with Runes? I am proposing that you should check the practical side of the things I mentioned. You did not, thats sure. And I repeat: I am no traditionalist but well aware of exploitations. Anything, really anything, practical about Runes is modern invention and not traditional. So whats your problem? There simply are no traditional runic practical workings - maybe the Staff-Tradition is an exception but I doubt that.

Maybe its Pop in your eyes. Its practical and it works. Runic-Gymnastics was invented in the 20's and even that I mentioned somewhere. Traditional approaches are non-existant, regarding this kind of practice. So what? Non-existant traditions cannot be misused - that you do not understand.

Yes, I stir together "Harnershamanism" and other concepts. You can find this easily. Harners Shamanism exploited some native rituals and that is the point I realized some time ago - hence my reworking and corrections I am trying to do at the moment. There is no reason to repeat this all the time wherever I am posting a comment or a question here. Thats ridiculous. It is also ridiculous that I should not take comparisons with other systems. The rest I have already stated in this other thread. Clearly you are putting me happily in the misusing corner.

So you are blaming me for all that? Nice.  Then - move me to Fraud and Plastic and be glad with that. One enemy you have won with this step - and you can take a bet that I never forget. I seek no acceptance by people incapable of being openminded. I avoid those and have no dealings with them. It is useless and has no future.

Salad-bar-Spiritualist and Misuser by Heart, Whats next on the insulting list?

Neil Greenwood.
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Leonard on January 20, 2008, 10:06:24 pm
I wonder if this is symptomatic of my 'western culture'. People like to use the generic 's' word (spirit) to assume legitimacy and authority and offer a 'smorgasbord' in the restaurant of 'spirituality', to appeal to the widest possible audience of 'diners'. In this country, we have even been known to have 'drive through' churches where you do not even have to leave your car. ... or stay at home and touch the television if you want to connect to 'jesus'.

Leonard.
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Greenwood on January 20, 2008, 10:08:08 pm
I am linking these Threads to my English and German Discussion Boards. Surely they are interested in this - and it will be interesting to see the discussions.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood.
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Greenwood on January 20, 2008, 10:25:28 pm
One thing IS symptomatic in Western Cultures: The syncretism. Here we are living in a multi-cultured society with really many different cultures living in the same street, door-by-door. They often and happily adopt habits, terms and even some rituals from each other, melting them together to a new kind of spirituality, not even remotely traditional. Well, I am part of this mixture, but I have own roots.

Syncretism is not that traditional thing, yes. But it is a valid path - otherwise you have to blame literally millions of peoples for misusing and exploiting which they don't - when it helps them and offers them a new interpretation and different overview of their lives. This clearly is a different approach then the pure traditional one, but it is also part of human history and thus nothing really new.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Leonard on January 20, 2008, 10:33:13 pm
Yes, western culture tends to be more 'poly-cultural' and 'traditional' people 'mono-cultural'. I think what the objection is that the 'traditionalists' are not a part of our culture, and we have no business trying to adapt theirs into ours.

Leonard.
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Sword of Zilu on January 20, 2008, 10:49:41 pm
It is funny how some so-called "traditionalists" oppose syncretism.

Historically, all forms of spirituality are highly syncretic. This is because traditions are nothing but disposable vehicles, by which universal truths are transmitted.

All traditions have some truths. All truths are compatible. Therefore, when one person is influenced by two or more traditions, the natural tendency is to synthesise them into one system.

Examples:

In the Coptic magical texts, four magical traditions play equal part: Jewish, Greek, Egyptian, and Christian.

In Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy, every page referred to dozens of exotic traditions.

In Daoist magic, people use pseudo-Sanskrit sounds.

In Traditional Chinese Religion, people worship Buddhist, Confucian, Daoist, and Shamanist deities at once.

In many modern Chinese religions, you even see Christian symbols, such as angels. Many newly-written sacred texts have Jesus conversing with Buddha, Confucius, and Laozi.

Tibetan astrology is a fusion of Chinese astrology and Indian astrology.

Conclusion:

The reason some people grasp onto one tradition or another tradition is because they have no true spiritual experience. For those who know true spirituality, efficacy is the measure of truth.

True traditionalists, such as many Daoists whom I know, are supportive of the New Age enterprise. They are also supportive of Neo-Paganism and Wicca.

Do you think the ancients rejected innovation and syncretism? If so, why did Caesar describe the gods of the Gauls in Roman terms? If so, why did Plutarch, Plotinus, and Iamblichus freely discuss the religions of the East?

Truth is universal. If something is true, then it is true anywhere, anytime, for any person. Traditions have nothing to do with it. Unfortunately, people forget this when they discuss religion.

Scholarship has no direct relevance to spirituality. A spiritual teaching is invalid unless it can prove itself. Scholars can talk. They can also write abstruse articles read by other scholars. But can they demonstrate any spiritual accomplishments?

This is especially poignant in relation to my country, China. Because most scholars of Confucianism, Daoism, and Traditional Chinese Religion do not believe in ancient things. Therefore, they churn out books after books of scholarly "facts," which have no bearing upon reality.

True religion is only found in the villages, in illiterate shamans, in mountain hermits.

Anyway, I doubt what I say will convince people on this forum. I write here only because a friend asked me to.

Blessings for all.
Title: Klemenc's tangents from other threads
Post by: Leonard on January 20, 2008, 10:57:05 pm
... so, if I write a book about China and the beliefs of your people, even though I have never been to your country and have never met your people - would my book and 'spiritual' conclusions be valid ? ...

... I think this is what the 'native american' people object to - some people in Europe and in America who have never been on a 'reservation' and have never spoken to these people to write books explaining the 'indians' and performing ceremony that is not theirs for profit - I think that this is the problem and the objection here. ...

Leonard.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Sword of Zilu on January 21, 2008, 02:46:20 am
Dear Neil Greenwood,

Why do you even defend yourself in front of these people? [Insults delelted.]

"Prayers and war are the most important things of the state." In ancient China, shamans who failed their missions were executed. Even Great Yu's father Gun was executed when he failed to control the flood.

Efficacy is the sole proof of spirituality. Teachers, traditions, and scriptural authorities - none can confer the recognition of the gods.

I have yet to meet a reconstructionist who can call forth a single drop of rain. I have yet to meet a scholar who can expel the smallest evil spirit.

Conversely, I have met many Westerners who can divine the future using Yijing with miraculous precision. And they can't speak a word of Chinese. (In fact, I know of one German Singaporean who used Feng Shui to improve radically his local political scene.)

When spirituality disappears, people grasp onto traditions.[Insults deleted.]

When something is true, it is true anywhere, anytime, and for any person. If a technique works, it works for all people. (In the same way chemistry is universal. In the same way automobiles are universal.) Traditions and heritages are irrelevant.

I have faith in you, Neil, as a great shaman. Your work has helped innumerable people. Your writings have certainly helped me. Because they are real. Your writings are real, because they derive from real experience and real practice, instead of speculations built on incomplete traditions and distorted scriptures.

The following is from another post, which was just locked, but I would like to reply anyway. It demonstrates how different peoples view their cultures.

Quote
... so, if I write a book about China and the beliefs of your people, even though I have never been to your country and have never met your people - would my book and 'spiritual' conclusions be valid ? ...

... I think this is what the 'native american' people object to - some people in Europe and in America who have never been on a 'reservation' and have never spoken to these people to write books explaining the 'indians' and performing ceremony that is not theirs for profit - I think that this is the problem and the objection here. ...

Leonard.

I understand your objection to people who only care about money. But I have no objection to non-Chinese people adopting Chinese symbolisms, gods, and rituals. In fact, I very much encourage it. Most Chinese people would too. It would be a point of national pride. (Just as French people export French culture everywhere.) This is the difference between a vibrant, living tradition, and a dead, "scholarly" reconstructionism.

Actually, many popular Korean, Vietnamese, and Japanese gods were originally Chinese gods. But oftentimes, they have radically different features and cults in their adopted countries. The same with Chinese festivals.

Furthermore, true traditionalists do not care about traditions. Instead, they care about efficacy. For instance, can you imagine Sarangerel saying, "Oh my! I can't use mirrors, because I am Buryat, whereas mirrors come from China. I can't do divination either, because my divination uses coins, which come from China."

Actually, Sarangerel's book advised the use of Tarot cards and regular playing cards for divination. I doubt anyone on this board can claim to be more traditionalist than Sarangerel. We should learn from her open-mindedness and willingness to innovate.

[Al's note: Debate is fine, but you don't help yourself or anyone else by being immature.]
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Greenwood on January 21, 2008, 05:50:07 pm
I have come to the conclusion that it does not make any sense to help or even to discuss with persons actively involved on this board. Obviously insults are being deleted as long as they originated from peoples "under attack" here - the others are being ignored. Exploitation is something which no one spiritual can accept which was the reason why I remained here in spite of continuing flamings against me and a consequent lack of even the attempt of thinking that there are some big mistakes done judging my person here in the mentioned way.

Sarangarel respected me as a shaman years ago, when Tengerism was not even being heard of anywhere in the WWW. The same for many Tuvinean shamans and even Natives from N-America who attended my dance were pleased and far away from labeling me Exploiter. I am respected and interviewed frequently by scientists of various faculties, among them Parapsychologists and Cultural Anthropologists being one of the handful of genuine german "neoshamans" who is being accepted as such.

It is a pity that Native interests are being crossed by non-Natives being "More holy then the Pope" - obviously it is in several peoples mind here that I have to be a Fraud or Plastic, Misusing anything and such. Note that not even ONE Native from the Andes appeared and blamed me for anything, since 1998 - blamings come from Whites and some North-Americans only here. None of them have the right of doing this in fact. The ridiculous blaming yesterday I can only laugh at. Face the fact: you lost one who has enough influence in Germany that real Plastics avoid me and even flame against me.

EducatedIndian: you wrote that I have to learn much. That what I have learned here is quite surely not that what you had in mind. You can thank your nice users here for that. I do not name them - they are knowing exactly who I am having in mind. I wish you and anyone of the FirstNations in the US that you can heal your wounds done by the White Intruders and still hurting your heritage. I really doubt that this can be achieved by Blacklists or Fraudlists at all. Those who should read them do not even know them or can read english at all (at least here in Germany).

What I learned is that your fight is having sense and meaning which I can understand but that some here have much to learn regarding the conceptions of "misuse" - a kind of witch-hunt was attempted here targeting on my person, hurting me much. I never forget that and those who initiated this hunt against me should note that they better keep out of my way (I know exactly whom I have to blame for this). It is a pity for your ideals what have happened here. You, who are not even Natives of any indigene Nation, have lost your face.

Delete my account. We have no further business with each other anymore. The threads I participated are archived for possible further useage.

"Look into your past to forecast your future." (118. Logomachy of Zos)

Over and out.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on January 22, 2008, 11:38:29 am
I have come to the conclusion that it does not make any sense to help or even to discuss with persons actively involved on this board...Face the fact: you lost one who has enough influence in Germany that real Plastics avoid me and even flame against me.

With friends like you (http://www.kondor.de/condor/condordance.html)

Quote
But then I saw a Video of the Aymara, showing a traditional Condor Dance. Well, I was really shocked, because they used complete, but deteriorated, wings of the Andean Condor. I felt the rage and sorrow of Apu Kuntur during watching this Video. Although I know and respect the folcloristic traditions of the Indigenos in South America I do not have to love them: I am no friend of those, who slaughteres the Andean Condor for show-effects, even if they are Indigenos of South America.

who needs enemies?

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/south/cultures/aymara.html
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: frederica on January 22, 2008, 09:54:52 pm
And all this time I thought the Condor was a protected bird, maybe it's just the California Condor.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Leonard on January 22, 2008, 11:34:50 pm
Yeah,  we all need 'protection' - but please - with out all of the 'bulldust' (too much dust in the air makes everyone see poorly; not see anything).

Leonard.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: frederica on January 22, 2008, 11:49:54 pm
What? Sorry don't get that.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Leonard on January 23, 2008, 03:45:06 am
We all seek to find the 'truth' (hopefully). Most of what I have seen on many web-sites professing to tell the truth of things are like someone who comes upon a clear stream and muddies up the water so much that no one can see anything. This is what I was trying to say. I am only trying to find a clear stream of water that has not been disturbed by someone not trying to cloud the water. Maybe I seek in vain I do not know.

Leonard.

<edit>

I am using this 'fraud and plastic shaman' - web site to 'clear' a lot of 'baggage' from my split/white/indian child hood - fake 'christianity' - 'wicca/pagan' - and all of the other things of 'bulldust' that I have come across in my search for authentic spirituality.

I like to quote from a statement made by the 'very' late President Lyndon B. Johnson - " ... boys, I might not know much - but, I know 'chicken shit' from 'chicken salad' ... "

... maybe now 'Leonard' can find 'peace' within him-self - we shall see ...
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on January 23, 2008, 08:18:29 am
More of Klemenc's racism. He posted this on his forum (http://www.kondor.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=278) yesterday, referring to this forum:

Quote
Reminds me on one friend I have, which is nearly blind. He is a pipe-carrier who actually lives this title - much better then many Natives, I am sure of that. Also I know many grounded and realistic people who keep the old dances here in Germany so that Natives from over there come here to learn their own dances again.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: frederica on January 23, 2008, 07:30:09 pm
Leonard,  Well, it you look at the photos posted above it clearly shows he is using some type of regalia. I do not know if there are real Condor feathers or not. But it is a protected bird here. Of course they may be fake, ie Turkey feathers. You have to register with Wildlife here just to get Eagle feathers and that can take a life time. I don't know hat the rules are in Europe, but I find it interesting.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Leonard on January 23, 2008, 08:28:01 pm
Oh, OK - I see what you are saying. I watched the video clip at the very top of this thread and the feathers do appear to be from some sort of a very large bird. The screen resolution is not too clear and I am not an ornithologist and he claims to be in a trance and not responsible for what he is doing in the dance, so what can I add to this discussion ?

It is just that I have a keen interest in authentic movement of spirituality and any authentic manifestation of spirit. I do agree with the position of this forum that no one has the right to appropriate or plagiarize any other people or any other system of belief or spirituality. It would be like me pretending to be the 'pope' or a 'rabbi' when I have no right and it is not within my own culture or traditions. I do not think it would be right for me to pretend to be the 'pope' and claim that I had the right to do so because of 'religious freedom'.

I am beginning to wonder if anything is true. Perhaps spirituality is simply some sort of sociological artifact of all human culture; a diary of sorts and commentary on the human condition of all cultures and all time of the human experience on planet earth.

Leonard.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on January 23, 2008, 09:55:24 pm
Leonard, Klemenc himself says in his first post in this thread where he got the feathers from.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 23, 2008, 11:34:52 pm
More of Klemenc's racism. He posted this on his forum (http://www.kondor.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=278) yesterday, referring to this forum <snip>

And also, this:

Quote
my version of Vulture-Shamanism.

He's finally found his True Shameonick Name: Culture Vulture.

Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
Post by: Leonard on January 24, 2008, 01:21:43 am
... although I must admit that is a pretty good one  :P ...

Your comment prompted me to consider symbolic content. On another post, someone had made the claim that coyotes come up to be tickled on the tummy and 'educatedindian' pointed out that coyote is a 'trickster' within that context - that gave me pause to think about that one.

Weymouth New Testament
Wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures flock together.

Leonard.
Title: Re: Stefan Klemenc / Neil Greenwood
Post by: Sparks on February 05, 2019, 07:50:32 pm
Stefan Klemenc AKA Neil Greenwood last posted on January 21, 2008, and the last time he signed in to the forum was on January 27, 2009. See http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=820 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=820).

I often reopen old topics when I discover that the person(s) discussed are still as active as ever out there, even if the NAFPS discussions ended ten or more years ago, which was the case this time.

His comprehensive website has survived those eleven years since then: http://www.kondor.de/ (http://www.kondor.de/).