NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: A.R. on March 27, 2007, 04:29:32 am
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Blue Wolf
An Australian Aboriginal leader Charlie Perkins once said that: "We know we can not live in the past, but the past lives in us".
And if the "Dreaming" you remember, know and recognize within is not reflected in the "Dreaming" of the white man, but is the "Dreaming" of Native American ..... DNA tests do come in handy, eh !
Barnaby McEwan
By the looks of things the white man has a great difficulty in even recognizing his/her own "Dreaming" .... let alone having a clue about the "Dreamings" of Aboriginal peoples, a-n-y Aboriginal peoples ! Therefore I personally do take an offence of a white man becoming "The Native Police" in the matters of Aboriginal genuineness.
Call it a deep and honest gut reaction, it gets to me like a "rocket fuel" !
Used to have the same "rocket fuel gut reaction" to the word "assimilation", a white person would only need to mention the word and "sparks would fly" !!!!
Still.
The road any indigenous soul personally needs to take to realign and reconnect and heal the past in efforts to find one's truths or to move forwards; - may not be as straight and narrow as an "onlooker", or white European might wish to dictate.
I've seen my Aboriginal "brothers" and "sisters" take contradictory paths dividing the previously cohesive tribal unity .... and some of the paths I personally would not take, but knowing where the person is coming from, and what they have been through making their choices puts me in no position to judge.
There is this huge cry from the white Australians for the Aboriginal people to "assimilate", but when these same "criers" meet an "Elder" who is highly educated, (in white man's terms) who speaks several languages, is well versed in "world philosophies", who dresses up smartly and drives a new 4-wheel drive, well, he is not a real tribal "Elder" now is he; - but a mere "fraud".
But for some communities to have these kind of new "Elders", who are learned in and can juggle both worlds, they present the means for future survival in the very real sense of the word.
For my parents and grandparents survival meant learning the "white ways" and in silence staying in hiding about our culture and identity.
For me survival means revival of the said cultural identity.
I do have some vague idea, that the situation in Americas is quite different than what is down here, and maybe "employing" white people as the "Native Police" hunting down "frauds" is a good idea and a smart move, which shows you to be far more "healed" and "advanced" than my "fly off the handle" methods. Heh, come to think of it .....
So never mind what I've been saying here Barnaby McEwans from Totnes, Devon, just keep on doing the good work you are doing chasing down "them frauds", you'll catch one one day, "red handed" if you keep at it, might not be at the direction your finger is pointing at though. So think twice before you start calling a person who claims to be indigenous; - "a fraud" until you know them and until you know what they have been through, and where they are at, on their journey.
NAFPS
Thank you for letting me come in and have a say.
"Bye" for now.
A.R.
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Hi A.R.
I am a Norwegian white man, an aboriginal of Scandinavia.
Interesting reminder of a majority of white men's tendency to police almost everything, but I don't agree with what you write. Natives in other countries than Europe should not forget that the old religious traditions of Europe have also been suppressed by violence and force for many centuries, not by The White Man, but by Christians. These Christians have also destroyed cultures on other continents, because they had the military means to do it.
This is not a question about race. I am proud of being white, and I love my country. But I am not proud of many of the ways Western culture has developed the last 1000 years.
I am not an onlooker. I experience that new agers take old North-European beliefs, beliefs I am a part of, and turn them into "shamanism", a product to be sold on the spiritual market. I react to this, and I sympathize with other indigenous people who feel the same way.
Your accusation of policing reminds me a bit about other new agers accusations when they say that members of this forum are "fundamentalists", "intolerant" or "extremists". Such negative labels are sometimes used instead of presenting facts and plain arguments against what is written here.
There is a difference between judging and "policing", however. If many Native Americans, like the Lakota for instance, judge that their religious ceremonies should not be sold, that new agers should not misuse them, then I have no problem with letting people know when I have encountered individuals who seem to be frauds according to the criteria presented by natives of the continent now occupied and called "America".
There is this huge cry from the white Australians for the Aboriginal people to "assimilate", but when these same "criers" meet an "Elder" who is highly educated, (in white man's terms) who speaks several languages, is well versed in "world philosophies", who dresses up smartly and drives a new 4-wheel drive, well, he is not a real tribal "Elder" now is he; - but a mere "fraud".
Nobody on this forum will call such an Elder a "fraud".
But I agree with you that one should know a person before calling anyone a fraud, but many times people say things on the internet that reveals that they are frauds or something similar. Mr. FBI for example.
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Therefore I personally do take an offence of a white man becoming "The Native Police" in the matters of Aboriginal genuineness.
Please refer to my earlier reply.
So never mind what I've been saying here Barnaby McEwans from Totnes, Devon
It's not difficult to find out where I live, since I posted that information here myself. Why mention it again?
So think twice before you start calling a person who claims to be indigenous; - "a fraud" until you know them and until you know what they have been through, and where they are at, on their journey.
Over the years, tribal governments and intertribal groups of elders have released statements on this subject many times. Dozens of articles have been written by respected native activists and writers. They say things like 'to evaluate a person's claims, call their tribal government', 'ask who their teachers are', 'ask them their home address', and so on. To my knowledge, not a single one says 'find out what they have been through', 'understand their journey', or anything similar. That kind of thing is, however, routinely said by frauds and their dupes. I think I'll take the elders' advice over yours.
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Andreas Winsnes
Ok.
Barnaby McEwans asked me about Australia.
But by all means let's look at the Scandinavian region.
I think the Vikings are well known for their "glory days", for their murdering and thieving raids in the world. When the Vikings pushed into Eurasia, the local, I mean the indigenous tribes on the land called them Rus. To cut the story short, Prince Ruric and other Viking aristocrats established power places on the land that we now call Rus'sia.
Between the "Vikings" in the West and the "Rus" in the East .... have the Native tribes of that land area been treated, are they being treated well ?
I can answer this to you squarely and from a direct personal experience .... NO !
Therefore please do not talk about the valour of the white Scandinavians or that of the white Rus towards Indigenous populations.
So what makes you now "The White Knight" looking after "Indians" .... I wonder.
A.R.
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AR,
I am not meaning to speak for Barnaby, however, I do not believe he is thinking of himself as a "white knight" out protecting Indians. To me, he seems more like a man who is tired of the frauds that prey on gullible English people. And no, I am no knight, being an Indian gramma married to an Indian grandpa and living on a reservation. I am just sick of the freaks and frauds who prey on the gullible. Then instead of being angry at the fraud, they hate all Indians when they realize they have been had.
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AR,
Note that this topic was split, since you were sidetracking the main topic by trying to make Barnaby and/or nonNatives the issue, and doing so with your very first post.
So I have to wonder if you joined the forum just to go after Barnaby, which would seem like a very petty thing to do.
Pretty ironic. We don't know if you are Native or not. I didn't see you introduce yourself in the Welcome section, and most Native people would immediately do that when they join a forum. Traditional politeness and all.
Barnaby was a great help to me on a speaking tour in Europe (just the British leg of it) when I spoke against exploiters and to raise money for two charities for Native children. I've never seen him presume to speak for Native people. I *have* seen him go out of his way and give of his time and energy selflessly to help out when asked. White knight? No. Friend and activist? Yes.
When I hear someone say that nonNatives should not play any role in rooting out expoiters, I like to ask: Shouldn't whites speak out against racism as much as nonwhites? Should only Jews care about remembering the Holocaust or fighting anti Semitism?
In my experience the ones saying nonNatives should not speak out against exploiters tend to be exploiters or followers of exploiters trying to sidetrack the main issue, which is (surprise) exploiters and their exploitation.
I don't know if you're one of them. I'll wait at least until I see you introduce yourself.
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A.R
You are really into skin colour, but forgot to mention Genghis Kahn and his immediate successors, those nice yellow chaps who went camping in Europe for a while. You know, people have always fought and conquered land, and North-Europeans are no exception. Such conquests are nothing to be proud of, but bringing the "Vikings" into this discussion is so far out that I have difficulty taking you seriously.
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Thank you Educatedindian for moving the posts and giving the thread it's proper name.
"Fraud" name calling cuts deep and makes me very angry when I hear it time and time again from non-Natives, who do not know what they are talking about.
F.e.x.
The earlier British lawmakers in this country saw it fit to forcibly remove thousands of Australian Aboriginal children from their parents and their communities to be brought up in institutions or white foster homes in order to "civilize" and to "train" them.
These children lost their language and most often their tribal origins were concealed from them. Some 1/4 Aboriginal children were even told that they were Greek, Italian, Asian or descendants of some other culture. Not to mention all the drama of physical and sexual abuse in these institutions ...... the pain and suffering of the families from whom these children were taken away ..... the list goes on and on ....
Then to add an insult to the injury; - when these "Stolen Generation" people now are seen by some Britts, they are judged as not being "real" Aborigines for not speaking their own language nor knowing the details of their own specific culture.
And that to me is just the "cherry on the top of the cake" !
I have heard many, many stories from people who have been in "Missions", listened to the stories by the "Stolen Generation" people telling me what they have gone through, and about their difficult journey back finding their long lost relatives, reconnecting with the culture etc. etc.
Even though I am not an Australian Aboriginal nor a "Stolen Generation" child, still in many ways I can identify with the situation having gone through a similar kind of "mill".
I know exactly what it is like, to be a "lost soul" in the world, because your Native identity was concealed from you. And no, the skin colour is not an issue, unless of course the skin colour of your mother and especially your grandmothers happens to be the "wrong" one. And even though the danger for safety, because of the skin colour and Native looks passes, the silent fear still lingers on, and the concealment for the grand kids "own good". Well, it wasn't, but I cannot judge them for thinking for our future survival.
I do not wish to get into telling my story further on this forum at this very point anyway.
When it comes to "selling Native culture" commercially. Tourists love it, others judge it as superficial and fake, there are many opinions. But in the end of the day, I see that it is the only employment opportunity many have. And as such it comes to the difference between living, what non-Natives would call normal life, (and having opportunities they take utterly for granted), and that of living in a "third wold" type of powerty, health problems, low self esteem, alcoholism .... etc. etc. conditions.
So how dare non-Natives judge !
To my knowledge, not a single one says 'find out what they have been through', 'understand their journey', or anything similar. That kind of thing is, however, routinely said by frauds and their dupes.
Barnaby McEwans
This quote is exactly what I mean, a perfect demonstration of "fraud" name calling by a non-Native, who doesn't know what he is talking about, and yet chooses to act like the real "Native Police", knowing the law in the matters of choice of words that should be used by an indigenous person or regarding other indigenous persons.
A friend of mine told this joke about how Westerners now taking Indigenous Culture courses soon enough will turn around and say: "What do y-o-u know about Indigenous Culture ..... you're just an aboriginal".
Laughed at that joke, thought it was too funny, but that joke doesn't seem so funny anymore.
And do you honestly think that there isn't truth in that ? (A question aimed at the Natives here).
Has the Western concept of what a true Aboriginal person should or shouldn't be like become the yardstick an Aboriginal person now needs to live up to in order to be "real" ?
Also to be worrying about the abuser's feelings getting hurt ..... Been there, done that, even till relatively recently, and got the wake-up-call of my life for my concerns. (Hence the attitude)
"Traditional politeness and all" that; - is hard to shed, but at least I've learned to think twice (touch wood) before extending my openness to people who do not deserve it, let alone understand "where I am coming from", even if I spell it out and pour my guts and heart out explaining it.
A.R.
P.S.
And have I been given permission from Aboriginal Elders and Educators to speak about Australian Aboriginal issues ?
Yes I have, I was taught for this very reason.
Do I wish to drop names ?
No. Not at this point anyway.
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When it comes to "selling Native culture" commercially. Tourists love it, others judge it as superficial and fake, there are many opinions. But in the end of the day, I see that it is the only employment opportunity many have. And as such it comes to the difference between living, what non-Natives would call normal life, (and having opportunities they take utterly for granted), and that of living in a "third wold" type of powerty, health problems, low self esteem, alcoholism .... etc. etc. conditions.
So how dare non-Natives judge !
Personally, I am not judging anybody who lives under the "third world" type of conditions you mention here. But tourists and new agers who exploit such conditions are in a way comparable to European tourists who exploit women in the third world.
Let me repeat that I let traditional natives do the judging. However, if a tribe decides that their culture and religion can be sold at the marketplace, then I can not objectively say that this is wrong, because the conditions they are living under should be taken into consideration, but I can express my anger towards those Western people who, just because of military superiority, have forced natives into such a tragic situation. And with the backing of many traditional natives, I can express my personal opinions that selling your culture and religion to the highest bidder is a tragedy.
A friend of mine told this joke about how Westerners now taking Indigenous Culture courses soon enough will turn around and say: "What do y-o-u know about Indigenous Culture ..... you're just an aboriginal".
The only thing that will happen is that a few more individuals will join the same category as countless new agers and others who now show some of the arrogant attitude you mention here. NAFPS will just continue its work, not that this organization should be the measure stick for natives around the world.
And have I been given permission from Aboriginal Elders and Educators to speak about Australian Aboriginal issues ?
Other nonnatives in this forum have the same permission, as stated several times in these threads.
But questions about the role of nonnatives in stopping exploiters are relevant, so I am glad you brought it up.
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what the british did to aboriginal children in Australia was copied by what both the Canadian and US governments did here in north america. my own family must live with this painful past and the ripple effects it continues to spread. in canada where my family is from, 50,000 children died at the hands of these church run, government sponsored hell holes and countless more live with the physical and emotional scars of having survived them. indigenous people here understand what has been taken from us in this regard.
Has the Western concept of what a true Aboriginal person should or shouldn't be like become the yardstick an Aboriginal person now needs to live up to in order to be "real" ?
your quote is exactly why it is so important for people to speak up against the cultural and spiritual exploiters. for every traditional native person there are upwards of 10 or so exploiters who claim to know the culture and teach it. they mix traditional ways with new age and mix tribal traditions many times incorporating eastern mysticism and plain old trickery and lies. they make quite a loud noise here with their books and websites and followers world wide. one well known fraud Brook Medicine Eagle, has sold more books than all native authors combined! they convince an unsuspecting non native population that they are the bearers of truth when in fact they are not.
so YES! the western concept of what an aboriginal person should be is shaped by these people to a large extent and true native people are judged on their expectations. this forum is our way to have a voice and be able to reach people who might not otherwise have contact with true native people with traditional knowledge. We are saying "no! this is NOT what we are or what we believe!" the non native people on this forum are helping us do that. not one has to my knowledge taken it upon themselves to judge with anything other than what elders and traditional true indigenous peoples have said is truth for their ways depending on their nation. i am glad they are helping. in the united states we are less than 1% of the total population so you can understand how our voices alone go unheard. but let me quote an aboriginal elder from australia...
"If you've come here to help me, you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson
perhaps those non native people here have come to understand that message clearly. we fight for survival.
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I don't think it is sheer coincidence that the only scenario seen by both Nahualqo and A.R. is the one that white persons 'judge' native persons, conveniently ignoring the fact that many frauds and plastics are white, pretending to be native, or to be of native descent, or having had native teachers who 'initiated' them. I have indeed no qualms calling someone a fraud who wrongly claims a tribal membership, and such persons cannot and will not 'teach' and perform valid spirituality, but some distorted version mixing fantasy and fiction. Thus, these persons contribute to the existence of a distorted image of native peoples, and it is in fact them who define what indigenous should and shouldn't be.
I also have no qualms in offering information on evident frauds in my country, to educate and warn people. The same applies to my looking for activities of known frauds in Europe.
However, both Nahualqo and A.R. seem unable to imagine a cooperation from white people, but apparently have the idea that the white members of this board will inevitably go and define indigenous cultures and spirituality. Well, this is either a deliberate misperception in order to promote their attack, or it means they have internalized aspects of the racism displayed by the dominant culture in our societies.
Seeing that A.R. in one of his recent posts explained that s/he wasn't indigenous (despite an earlier claim), but had permission of elders to speak up, I do wonder why s/he is criticizing us the way s/he does. I suspect someone may have had the impression of perceiving a splinter in a few eyes here.
As far as history is concerned: no matter what colour our behinds come with, it is evident that none of us can undo anything that happened centuries ago. This, however, does not give white persons any justification for leaning back comfortably, feign feeling sorry about the past and paying lipservice every now and then while completely ignoring the present. Our responsibility lies with what is going on today, and we will be judged by what we do to counter racism, racist exploitation, stereotyping of non-white peoples, of land being stolen still today, of history being twisted and re-written. We may not retreat to the line of 'Oh my, racism in fact is bad, but what can I do on my own', as unfortunately quite a few people do, and this is an attitude of aiding and abetting.
However, limiting the persons who are 'allowed' to address issues like racism and exploitation, and attempting at dividing those who do, is also aiding and abetting the exploiters and racists, as has been pointed out.
Bearing in mind A.R.'s explanation of not being indigenous but having the permission of elders not named, his/her aiding and abetting is accompanied by a generous helping of hypocrisy.
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Mo
Despite the high visibility and all the data that has been put out, Aboriginal people still at large remain highly invisible and unheard within the Western world .... that we live in.
This is the thing.
As an invisible person within the Western world context, (that we live in); - invisible, because you are only been seen through the eyes of "Western Reality Orientation" .... (as I personally would like to put it) ...... how do you deal with it ?
In terms of survival, there can be many approaches.
You can try to bridge the gap through education, or setting up "reconciliation" groups and meetings ....
You can try to reach out through common interests or you can try to "assimilate" and then from the point of understanding The Western Reality Orientation (intellectually to a point anyway) you may then try to bring your view across.
All of these approaches are valid in my mind anyway, depending who you are doing it.
Or you may have tried 1001 other approaches, bending backwards and forwards in efforts to bridge the gap between Western and Indigenous "thought" in order to come to some common understanding, and hoping against hope that some of it has been worth while, but in the end of the day, so tired and weary of knocking your head against the "wall" you may just decide to leave "the wall" or "the gap" as it is, throwing in the towel in a hissy fit.
Finding solace and peace knowing your own truth within you may just come to accept yourself as an invisible person in the Western world. Maybe even finding delight in being invisible, thus taking the grin and bear and say nothing approach, especially if you are a 1/4 and non-Natives can't in a multicultural society tell just by looking at you who you are.
That is an approach of survival as well, which I cannot fault. It isn't the approach of an "activist", but it does carry silent strength.
Or you can try the alcoholism approach .... I have ! Didn't work but, solved nothing, only made things worse. But I cannot judge people who do drink, because I did take that road myself.
So.
Thank you for the Lilla Watson quote.
One "Stolen Generation" lady who told me her story, (who after years of searching did finally find her mother still alive, many don't), said that the policeman who took her as a child, after how many years had passed, did recognize her straight away when she came back and then this policeman walked to her and said: "I'm Sorry".
By this time she had already gone through the "mill" and through the healing process and no longer needed anybody to say "sorry" to her, but h-e needed to say it, for his own healing, and she recognized that. Her eyes still shone as she told the story of that moment of reconciliation.
Ingeborg
You do not have to be Native American nor Australian Aboriginal in order to be of indigenous culture and heritage, but living here in Australia has made me realize the many similarities despite our different origins. That has been the real learning curve and an eye opener for me here.
Should be more of this type of recognition in the world I reckon.
A.R.
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AR
a quick scan of some of the topics in these forums concerning "fake tribes" will show that simply enjoying being invisible is not a good option to take. there are legal ramifications dealing with among other things, sovereignty status. precidences are being set all over the country and anti indian groups are active and thriving. i am sure for many people, simply exposing frauds is not the only action being taken. many including myself are active with education trying to bridge that gap as you have stated.
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When you are born indigenous it is for life.
Whether you live in a tribal setting or in town or in another country, the "issue of indigenousness" just doesn't go away, because you carry it within you.
You just learn to deal with it the best way you can.
What I've seen is that the colonial exploitative attitudes have not changed, but instead they have just become covert and at times also have the appearance of even being well meaning.
There are plenty good folk among the Western white population , and one of course loves them dearly for who they are.
But when one becomes "a cause worker" for Native Americans, be it South or North and yet the indigenous problem within one's own country goes unacknowledged, because they are not the WOW people .... "The Spiritual Elders, The Medicine Men, The Native Warriors" etc. etc. but instead some dirty old drunken eskimos or no-good aborigines .... something in this picture doesn't quite fit in place for me, and I just get the same old sick feeling in my gut about it.
A.R.
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But when one becomes "a cause worker" for Native Americans, be it South or North and yet the indigenous problem within one's own country goes unacknowledged, because they are not the WOW people .... "The Spiritual Elders, The Medicine Men, The Native Warriors" etc. etc. but instead some dirty old drunken eskimos or no-good aborigines .... something in this picture doesn't quite fit in place for me, and I just get the same old sick feeling in my gut about it.
What are you talking about? No one speaks like that here about any indigenous person. Your continuing insinuations of colonialism are a bit rich coming from someone who - roughly a decade ago (http://redwebz.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=23262#23262) 'went native' on the strength of having a Siberian grandma (http://redwebz.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=24058#24058) despite having lived most of your life in Australia (http://redwebz.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=23251#23251), where you live now
- took a course put together by Aboriginal people (http://redwebz.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=23252#23252) at an 'environmental centre' and decided that makes you a spokesperson for Aboriginal people
I will repeat my earlier warning: think very carefully before posting anything else.
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What will you do?
I will repeat my earlier warning: think very carefully before posting anything else.
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Barnaby
First the Europeans call your people "The Mongols" and come to your lands to take photographs, skull and other measurements to prove that you are of a "inferior race", by the Aryan superiority standards. So that even when the danger has passed, your family still lives in fear and silence about the family's dark skin colour and Asiatic looks, this factor being something never to be talked about even in the family circle itself, but the heaviness is always there.
When at a very young age, you realize, that you are not the same as white Europeans, the question becomes: "Who the heck am I ?" And all this kind of silence about your origins creates so much confusion in your life and a wound about your identity, which is also always there. Then when you do reconnect with your very own cultural heritage (which was there all the time anyway, it just wasn't to be spoken about) you come to fully know it's and your own Eastern, Siberian origins ...... you've gone through a full circle and become whole again.
So then when you come out and admit it, never wanting to go to that fear of silence again ..... all of a sudden it is: "Who do you t-h-i-n-k you are claiming Siberian Native Heritage" !
When I talk to the persons of the "Stolen Generation" here in Australia, which is a different situation, yet in sharing our stories I find there to be that many similarities it is not funny !
I find affinity with it, and this affinity is something I don't think you can fully comprehend Barnaby.
I have got great many concerns regarding to the topic of this thread.
A.R.
[Personal insults removed.]
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A.R.
Therefore I personally do take an offence of a white man becoming "The Native Police" in the matters of Aboriginal genuineness.
A.R
So what makes you now "The White Knight" looking after "Indians" .... I wonder.
A.R
"Fraud" name calling cuts deep and makes me very angry when I hear it time and time again from non-Natives, who do not know what they are talking about.
P.S.
And have I been given permission from Aboriginal Elders and Educators to speak about Australian Aboriginal issues ? Yes I have, I was taught for this very reason.
A.R.
When it comes to "selling Native culture" commercially. Tourists love it, others judge it as superficial and fake, there are many opinions. But in the end of the day, I see that it is the only employment opportunity many have. And as such it comes to the difference between living, what non-Natives would call normal life, (and having opportunities they take utterly for granted), and that of living in a "third wold" type of powerty, health problems, low self esteem, alcoholism .... etc. etc. conditions.
So how dare non-Natives judge !
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So ....A. R. What your saying is that you aren't indiginous to this continent , but you feel tou have some sort of authorization from Aboriginal Elders in Australia ( who also aren't from this continent ) to make rude and racist remarks to the people who ARE supporting MANY MANY MANY Elders on this continent ?
Aren't you just one more of those self rightous non native people you are complaining about , coming and telling native people what to do , and how to do it ?
Or is there some recognized Native Elders on this continent who don't want non native people telling the truth about people who claim to be Spiritual leaders who are really liars and exploiters ?
If you are representing Elders from this continent , who believe and frauds and exploiters shouldn't be exposed could you please name them ? ( and I don't mean known frauds and exploiters )
We are only concerned if people are LYING about who they are or what Native traditions are . ( and suggesting it is traditional and not exploitive and degrading , to charge and commercialy develop Spiritual traditions IS LYING ) People have a right to tell the truth no matter what race they are , even if Y-O-U don't like it.
Oh by the way , A.R. is the same person as Artnwere from the Carlos Castaneda Twilight zone forum . If people read through the threads they will see A.R. and nahualqo are mutual admires of each other .
http://www.percivale.co.uk/castacontin/viewtopic.php?p=6527&sid=b5acecc56a5d3f4e16d9de0ad4c0b192 (http://www.percivale.co.uk/castacontin/viewtopic.php?p=6527&sid=b5acecc56a5d3f4e16d9de0ad4c0b192)
Both A.R. and Artnwere are from a Finno-Urgric background , both in the habit od S-P-E-L-L-I-N-G
words with dashes , both residing in Austraila .
Hhmmmm makes you wonder what A.R. s real concerns are . i doubt they actually have anything to do with supporting native people on this continent .
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AR,
I've asked you several times to give a little introduction about yourself. You keep avoiding doing so, yet you continue to give us what you claim to be details of your life and your alleged authorization from Australia's Aboriginal peoples and elders. I have a hard time believing they'd give you such authorization and yet want your identity kept secret.
Also, you claim to be Siberian, but your email address (which anyone can see under Members) has what appears to be your name, Anneli Rodney. Perhaps you could explain what seems to be an Anglo last name and a Nordic first name?
And if you are a follower of N, then obviously that is one more deception of his, when he claimed to only teach those with NDN ancestry.
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[
When it comes to "selling Native culture" commercially. Tourists love it, others judge it as superficial and fake, there are many opinions. But in the end of the day, I see that it is the only employment opportunity many have. And as such it comes to the difference between living, what non-Natives would call normal life, (and having opportunities they take utterly for granted), and that of living in a "third wold" type of powerty, health problems, low self esteem, alcoholism .... etc. etc. conditions. So how dare non-Natives judge !
I don´t quite understand the heated comments, because the protests should come from the person who is wrongfully accused, i e the spiritual leader. But it won´t if he is who he says he is. I can´t see any of the medicinepeople I know start a battle on an Internet Forum - they´d go out and pray, they´d go to a ceremony, they know that the truth is a shield that will keep them protected. The medicinemen/spiritual leaders/Elders I know would not worry about it, they would have enough support from the spirit world to keep them safe.
So it seems that the worry of people being judged has more to do with worrying about exploiters loosing their income.
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It's like throwing a handful of dust to the wind. It's just justification, control, and rationalization. Really doesn't amount to anything. I'm suprised only a few have been dragged in for support. We are only 1-3% of the population and 3% is pushing it, so if the Elders decide support is needed, that is the way it will be. frederica
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Barnaby
First the Europeans call your people "The Mongols" and come to your lands to take photographs, skull and other measurements to prove that you are of a "inferior race", by the Aryan superiority standards. So that even when the danger has passed, your family still lives in fear and silence about the family's dark skin colour and Asiatic looks, this factor being something never to be talked about even in the family circle itself, but the heaviness is always there.
When at a very young age, you realize, that you are not the same as white Europeans, the question becomes: "Who the heck am I ?" And all this kind of silence about your origins creates so much confusion in your life and a wound about your identity, which is also always there.
Nobody measured your skull: a few months ago you wrote on the Redwebz forum about "physically having inherited my granfather's white looks". I doubt whether European-looking people with a Siberian grandparent are persecuted much in Australia.
Lots of people think "who the heck am I?" when they're young: it's called being a teenager. Unfortunately you still write like a particularly angry one: "I'm different. I'm special. They don't understand me. You don't understand me. You're a fascist!" Give me a break.
Why, if I and the other Europeans active in this forum are such colonialist pigs, do the Indian majority here put up with us? I didn't start this forum, I don't own the website. If I or any European here was out of line we'd soon know about it, and you're calling into question the judgment of the Indian people here by suggesting otherwise.
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Also, you claim to be Siberian, but your email address (which anyone can see under Members) has what appears to be your name, Anneli Rodney. Perhaps you could explain what seems to be an Anglo last name and a Nordic first name?
I'd take 'Anneli' for a German name. It's a bit outdated now. The name combines 'Anne/Anna' and a shortened form of 'Elisabeth' = abbrev. 'Liese' (pronounced 'leeza') to Anneliese, Annelie, or Anneli.
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Al is right, it is very common here in the Nordic countries. I have three friends called Anneli or Annelie ;D
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This is all turning into a genuine real life soap opera.
Regarding my identity. Is it Native or non, how could you tell; - is it in the name I've given you ?
Just how superficial is this fraud hunting going to get ?
Honestly, is your Native or non Native identity determined by names you give out on public forums ?
In the area, where I lived before, there was a Native American, who came annually to hold weekend retreats, Sweats were part of it, and I can't remember how much they did cost. I didn't go to those, nor his talks, because there was nothing drawing me to them, but it didn't even enter my head and still doesn't to "go after" these people, to determine whether they are frauds or not. Or to "go after" the people organizing or attending such gatherings.
That sort of thing would be down right ugly. For me that sort of thing would feel like a recruitment to a Nazi party.
Is this sort of nasty and ugly business "going after" some Native Americans for some other Native Americans going to make me a "Spiritual Warrior"; - mind boggles.
There was however a time, when I could feel a presence of a Native American person, very strongly. The feeling just came out-of-a-blue. After three days, feeling this strong presence, I had to ring my friend about it, another Finno-Ugric person, for she understands these things.
I blurted out on the phone that I had felt this strong presence, and that this Native American is on the mountains.
My friend started to laugh, because she had just 5 minutes ago come home from the markets, - held on the mountains, and there she had seen a stall selling Native American artifacts. This she had never seen there before. Then a man came to talk to her, who was a Native American. I asked my friend if she was sure that he was, and my friend said yes, because he told her so.
Now had this person selling artifacts, - who's presence I trust I was feeling, (because it was too much of a coincidence), come to my local area to give a talk or something, I would have gone, because there was this real and genuine presence.
You may call this "New Age", but there is nothing "Nuage" about it, and this is how I personally determine, who is genuine and real, who is not.
And I know there are Native Americans, who know this.
It IS an open secret.
And if you don't know it, then whether I called myself Tom, Dick or Harriett, it is not going to make any difference.
And I still wouldn't go calling this person, who held those Sweats a "fraud", how do I know, I wasn't there, and maybe the people really got something out of those retreats ?
A.R.
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Is it Native or non, how could you tell; - is it in the name I've given you ?
It's obvious from the way you write as well as what you write about yourself.
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You may call this "New Age", but there is nothing "Nuage" about it, and this is how I personally determine, who is genuine and real, who is not.
And I know there are Native Americans, who know this.
It IS an open secret.
Hej A.R.
No, I don´t think there is anything Nuage about that either. I don´t even think it is a secret. I believe in "things" that we cannot always explain and most Elders and medicinepeople have these kind of gifts. But I also believe that we have to balance these gifts with living in the real world.
So, I guess you´re saying that we should "feel" who you are. (Traditional Ndn:s - well, everyone I have met - always introduce themselves very carefully. Maybe you haven´t spent that much time in Native communities?) And my feeling is that you, just like me, is a non-Native. I am not in here to argue, I am just trying to understand why the wishes and feelings from a vast majority of traditional Indians are disrespected?
Or to "go after" the people organizing or attending such gatherings. That sort of thing would be down right ugly. For me that sort of thing would feel like a recruitment to a Nazi party.
Well, I don´t believe in "going after" like hunting someone down and bashing his head in. I believe in informing people. Like we do in the film. I inform them about what most Ndn:s feel about the abuse of ceremonies - according to many Elder´s wishes, and I guess you´ve read the links that have been posted in here?
Do you think it is wrong informing people about what the "other side" think? Shouldn´t everyone be allowed to choose what path they want to walk based on facts from both sides, even if you don´t share the view of "the other" side? Wouldn´t that be the decent thing to do? To let people make up their mind themselves?
And I still wouldn't go calling this person, who held those Sweats a "fraud", how do I know, I wasn't there, and maybe the people really got something out of those retreats ?
Well, this is a tricky thing...a rapist gets something out of raping women. Does it make it right?
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"Regarding my identity. Is it Native or non, how could you tell; - is it in the name I've given you ?
Just how superficial is this fraud hunting going to get ?"
Yep, you definitely are an admirer or imitator of N. Same martyr complex, same persecution paranoia.
All we've done is asked you to say hello and say who you are, and you break out the Nazi comparisons. (See below.)
"In the area, where I lived before, there was a Native American, who came annually to hold weekend retreats, Sweats were part of it, and I can't remember how much they did cost. I didn't go to those, nor his talks, because there was nothing drawing me to them, but it didn't even enter my head and still doesn't to "go after" these people, to determine whether they are frauds or not."
If he was charging and inviting anyone who had the money, that's a fraud.
"For me that sort of thing would feel like a recruitment to a Nazi party."
There it is.
You bet, asking questions if someone is what they claim to be, that somehow equals the systematic genocide of 12 million people.
That's the sort of thing said by people who've never experienced real prejudice in their very sheltered life.
"Is this sort of nasty and ugly business "going after" some Native Americans for some other Native Americans going to make me a "Spiritual Warrior"; - mind boggles."
The mind boggles at how little you understand about Natives.
"There was however a time, when I could feel a presence of a Native American person, very strongly. The feeling just came out-of-a-blue. After three days, feeling this strong presence, I had to ring my friend about it, another Finno-Ugric person, for she understands these things. I blurted out on the phone that I had felt this strong presence, and that this Native American is on the mountains."
THE INDIAN IS HERE! Sorry, everyone. Annika knows what I'm talking about.
This sort of thing kept happening to her and people she brought over to Sweden to speak on NDN issues. Nuagers kept trying to prove how sooper-spirchul they are by claiming to see NDN spirits.
AR, once again, you keep dodging the question.
If you won't say who you are, how about saying why you won't say it?
Or are you going to tell us, as N did, that your life would be in danger?
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THE INDIAN IS HERE! Sorry, everyone. Annika knows what I'm talking about.
;D ;D ;D
OH, I just remembered when you spoke at the New Age place and that pigeon landed on the windowsill - and everyone cried out: "AAAAH, look!! His totemanimal!!"
By the way, Al, nice to hear that you are now Swedish according to people in here. Our favourite fraud - you know who I mean - says that all Indians will be reincarnated as Swedes, so I can understand you...why wait until you die??! ;D ;D
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NAFPS
Educatedindian
Hello, let me introduce myself, I am a Karelian person, living in Australia.
A little bit of history here. After being occupied by both the Swedish and the Russians, Finland did finally get it's independence in 1917.
Karelia wanted to become part of the independent Finland, but my grandparents on both sides, with my parents had to flee their lands in Karelia in 1940, because those lands once again became under Russian rule.
Karelians belong to the East-Baltic race in which European features are blended with Mongolian traits.
These Mongolian traits are my family traits.
And when it comes to the my reference to Nazi, two of my uncles fought beside the Saami in Lapland against the Nazi invasion. Because of our family's dark skin colour and Asiatic looks, the Aryan superiority of the Nazis was considered to be a real threat, so that even when the danger passed and we lived in peace time in our language relatives country Finland, where I was born, the origins of our Mongolian traits was something never to be talked about.
I speak Karelian dialect, but I no longer can speak Karelian proper, the language of my grandmothers, language which I could understand, but not quite when I heard them speak it.
But going back a bit, under the Swedish occupation, the Christianizing and civilization of our peoples started in earnest.
Under the threat of punishment, it became forbidden to give offerings to our Sacred Sites, Sacred Groves and Spirit Trees. In the "Spirit-of-the-Place" places called Hiisi, Sacred Rocks were smashed, and those places were now to be called of the devil. Could write about this on and on, but I think you do get the picture.
We were shamed and ridiculed for our animist beliefs and our shamanic culture, but still, in many places our Christianizing and civilization was only a thin veneer, and people still practiced their culture. My grandmothers still practiced the old ways as did other Karelians in their villages, though now in total secrecy in a "foreign fast Westernizing country" that we now lived in. Still though holding fast to our ethnicity.
As I said earlier "I have got great many concerns regarding to the topic of this thread", and in the end of the day, I do hope, that I have created a question mark around the whole issue for both Natives and non-Natives here.
It seems that Western Europeans take every word the Native Americans speak about "indigeousness" as a gospel; - or haven't you noticed it as yet !
In the process of "standard making" such statements as: The New Agers use the 'we' word, The New Agers talk about 'Totems' etc. etc.makes me stop and think: "But hang on a minute", this is not so, not from my own cultural perspective anyway, and we do talk about Totems in my neighbourhood here in Australia locally, as the person may talk about his or her own, or is pointing out the Totems of others to me .... and this is just in a normal ordinary everyday conversation, and there is nothing New Age about it, that's for sure.
Because of my own cultural background I can relate to it, though of course there are differences, the Animals themselves for starters, whom you consider as being your Ancestors, and the way you receive your Totem, but still, the way I have perceived a person's Totem within ordinary Reality without knowing it first, is considered as normal, that's how you perceive it, - so there are similarities as well.
But if this, what is considered as normal talk and normal perception is related to Western European who is out to catch NAFPS'es, then this becomes "The New Age" talking.
And where on Earth do they get all these rules ! ? From the NAFPS "rule book" it seems.
It is all very well for the Native Americans to "educate" nonNatives about genuine Native American and New Age differences, this is good, but I guess one could make a whole list these things, that does not apply to others, yet they are being applied to others.
Under the Swedish occupation, Sacred Groves were cut down and churches built on top of them. In the areas f.e.x. where there were "Bear Totemics", areas where it was forbidden to kill your Ancestral Grandfather, the bears were killed and then the skins were nailed on church walls for everyone to see, in a manner of: "Look at your Grandfathers now !"
So when a Swedish person here says:
OH, I just remembered when you spoke at the New Age place and that pigeon landed on the windowsill - and everyone cried out: "AAAAH, look!! His totemanimal!!"
Freija
For me this is like going back in time all over again, back in time when we were so ridiculed for our Totemism; - and it is as though nothing has changed.
It is the same all over again, and in this time it takes place in NAFPS forum.
I think Freija summarized it well:
By the way, Al, nice to hear that you are now Swedish according to people in here. Our favourite fraud - you know who I mean - says that all Indians will be reincarnated as Swedes, so I can understand you...why wait until you die??! ;D ;D
Freija
My very own Cultural Spiritual Heritage belongs to the Finno-Ugric group and it originates from Siberia and it is still being practiced.
If one does not live one's own culture in some ways, it becomes lost it in approaching monoculture of sameness.
But I intend to hold onto my Siberian Shamanic Reality Orientation and Worldview despite NAFPS and the European "right-hand-men/women" dictating the truths about Totemic etc. beliefs and practices I am not supposed to have.
A.R.
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Hi A.R.
I could say a lot about your accusations but I understand that Swedes are not your favourite people...so I will refrain from posting on this topic again.
I have the deepest respect for the original traditions of any people, especially all indigenous people (I am sorry if you see that as another gospel ) that´s why I am doing what I am doing - but to me it is a HUGE difference between the New Age world´s "totemanimalcourses" during an expensive weekend and the spirituality of the real people! And also, in the case I joked about, the very stereotypical fantasy-world that surrounds Ndn:s. If they don´t have a totemanimal, they are no real Ndns!! It just adds to the way that Ndn:s are seen as something coming out of a New Age book instead of real people. Why aren´t they getting asked about the situation on the rez instead? Or how we, non-Natives, can help in the struggle for justice? No, Natives are in many cases there to fullfill the white world´s need of fantasies and dreams. And many of them, including us who support them, are getting sick and tired of it, hence the ironical jokes.
If you don´t see the difference between a real - and sacred! - Native American ceremony and a fraudelent ceremony organised for money/sex/ego - which according to most traditionalists is not sacred since the spirits do not come in - then I can fully understand your confusion.
To compare the attempt to protect the true Native spiritual traditions to the Swedish occupation of Finland....is...like....wow!! :o (I think we were pretty good at colonizing Turtle Island, too....yet none of the rightful landowners in here have in any way been disrespectful.)
Well, Easter is gone and over (almost) and I have to go back to work. Thanks for the discussion. By the way, I have many Finns in my extended family. No hard feelings there.... ;)
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AR
It is all very well for the Native Americans to "educate" nonNatives about genuine Native American and New Age differences, this is good, but I guess one could make a whole list these things, that does not apply to others, yet they are being applied to others.
Looks like this accusation is just a way A. R. can get around looking in the mirror and seeing one of those arrogant non native people telling ndns what to do , and who can help them do it .
Doing a search on "Totem" the only entry that comes up that has no claim of it being Native or teaching Native ways is here .
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=669.msg3324#msg3324 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=669.msg3324#msg3324)
Animals
Totem Animals may be Ancestors.
Animal Readings help you utilize your best personality traits.
Regular reading ($90/hour):
Totem reading ($100.00/hour)
this was Al's initial response ;
educatedindian reply #1
This brings up something interesting. Since she makes no claim of being Native or teaching
Native ways, why do you ask us to research her?
So A. R. where is anyone here claiming expertise on Finno - Urgic traditions and identifying practioners of these traditions as frauduent ? Where is anyone here claiming expertise on Australian traditions , and identifying people making false claims about Australian practices ? I think you are just making this up so you can play the victim and try and claim you have a right to tell Native people what to do .
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( editied to add )
If you go back a couple generations most people on this planet have lived through some sort of serious persecution . It doesn't follow that because people have a heritage that is Chinese, African , Armenian, Jewish ect , they have a right to tell American Indians what they should and should not be concerned about and who is allowed to support them in their concerns .
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I doubt A.R. would be interested , but for people who do have questions about the role of non Natives supporting native concerns , the book by Rupert Ross , "Dancing with a Ghost", might help people understand why non native and mixed blood supporters can be so helpful, when it comes to communicating with arrogant mouthy non natives who don't listen and won't take "No" for an answer . The book talks about how these differences in culture can make it really hard for Native people who are still deeply connected with their own culture , to deal with the non native justice system - and non native culture in general. The pushy non native way tends to walk right over the averted eyes and silence, which in many native cultures is a loud and clear "NO". So mixed blood and non native people are often more able to do the necessary yelling in peoples ears ,that seems to be required for many non native people to listen .
The important thing is that Native peoples intrests are truely being represented , not who is representing them . ( and A.R. has yet to tell exactly who's intrest she thinks she is representing - though it is obvious with her stance on non natives being unable to support native interests , the exploiters must love her )
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It seems that Western Europeans take every word the Native Americans speak about "indigeousness" as a gospel; - or haven't you noticed it as yet !
I wrote earlier in this thread:
"NAFPS will just continue its work, not that this organization should be the measure stick for natives around the world."
For me this is like going back in time all over again, back in time when we were so ridiculed for our Totemism; - and it is as though nothing has changed. It is the same all over again, and in this time it takes place in NAFPS forum.
NAFPS tolerates irony, and I hope you do to.
Unfortuneatly, it seems like you are seeing trolls in this forum that does not exist. But if some members write wrongfully about your culture, please tell.
What Norwegians and Swedes have done do the Sami culture is unexcusable, so also was the concquest of Karelia. I support the full independence of Sápmi. And I certainly support your stance against Harner. So I believe this dispute between you and us other members of this forum is at least based partly on misunderstandings, and should be solved without arguing.
But why do you use the word "shaman" when you are not Evenk? Would it not be better for your own culture if a Karelian title was used? In comparison, Norse believers don't call themselvs shamans, but "seidkone" for instance. That breaks monocultural tendencies.
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Glad to finally meet you AR. Shall we call continue to call you AR, or Anneli? I'm guessing the last name of Rodney came from marrying an Australian?
"when it comes to the my reference to Nazi, two of my uncles fought beside the Saami in Lapland against the Nazi invasion...." followed by more personal history.
And after all of that, I still have no idea how Native people stopping abuse has anything to do with Nazis.
"We were shamed and ridiculed for our animist beliefs and our shamanic culture"
Well, it looks like this is going to keep happening, you using a term used by outsiders, and then defending any criticism of that outsiders' term as somehow an "attack".
"I do hope, that I have created a question mark around the whole issue for both Natives and non-Natives here."
The only question that's been raised so far has been why you keep making these tortured, roundabout analogies.
"It seems that Western Europeans take every word the Native Americans speak about "indigeousness" as a gospel; - or haven't you noticed it as yet !"
LOL! I only wish it were true. Much more often it seems Europeans take the word of outsiders trying to define tribal cultures as gospel, much as you are doing with your own heritage.
"we do talk about Totems in my neighbourhood here in Australia locally, as the person may talk about his or her own, or is pointing out the Totems of others to me .... and this is just in a normal ordinary everyday conversation, and there is nothing New Age about it"
You claimed earlier that Sami and Siberian cultures were related.
From my brief contact with Sami when I came to Sweden, I know they have their own lists of things that are not to be talked about openly, or only with certain people or at certain times. I have a hard time believing they'd come on the net and tell everyone about very private experiences.
NAFPS had a member for several years, Huhanna Hickey, who was Maori and Australian Aboriginal. She mentioned many times similar protocols about what was and what was not to be discussed.
So I have hard time believing tribal people in either Scandinavia or Australia walk around saying, "Hey! What's your totem, dude?" like people in the 70s would ask people their zodiac signs.
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Andreas
Unfortuneatly, it seems like you are seeing trolls in this forum that does not exist.
Andreas
You are right. As soon as you started to talk more, I realized just how genuine you are, and this started to weigh on my conscience.
My apologies, please forgive me. I also applaud your interest in your own Nordic culture.
And of course in my own culture the name for a "shaman" is Tietaja.
NAFPS tolerates irony, and I hope you do to.
Andreas
Here I do disagree, in my mind it cheapens what is real and genuine, and that which is so fragile in this day and age must be preserved for future generations.
So I have hard time believing tribal people in either Scandinavia or Australia walk around saying, "Hey! What's your totem, dude?" like people in the 70s would ask people their zodiac signs.
Educatedindian
Just because people tell you what their Dreaming is, it is never ever talked about in this manner.
Educatedindian, how can you possibly talk about it in this downgrading manner if you know just how important it is to live this aspect of your Culture. And then you talk about protocols about discussing things. I really do not get you on this.
You claimed earlier that Sami and Siberian cultures were related.
Though Saami are a "separate" group, Saami language belongs to the Finno-Ugric language family, and through a long coexistence, there are a lot of things Karelians and Saami share in common and in general with other Finno-Ugrics.
From my brief contact with Sami when I came to Sweden, I know they have their own lists of things that are not to be talked about openly, or only with certain people or at certain times. I have a hard time believing they'd come on the net and tell everyone about very private experiences.
Educatedindian
I keep on repeating, that it is an open secret, but you do not understand what I am saying here.
When you go to the land of Saami, the spiritual culture is all around you, if you have the eyes to see it, same here in Australia. And all of a sudden your private experiences and that of others aren't so private any more, this IS the thing.
A.R.
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My opinion - I can see no reason for non-Natives not to participate in stopping exploitation. I think that they not only should, but indeed have a particular obligation and responsiblity to. To ignore that which you know is wrong is to be party to it.
We're in a situation right now where non-Natives (and Natives too) know that something is exploitative and wrong and are silent and take no steps to correct it.
Perhaps because they think it's nothing; perhaps they gain something from the error, and secretly don't want it corrected. Perhaps they just don't want to take any ownership of it, even when it is directly their concern. Perhaps they just don't care.
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Jacob Holdt:
http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/aid.htm
In Copenhagen, Denmark I was deeply touched by the "soulfulness" of Jacob Holdt; - impressed by his warts and all truthfulness and his integrity in telling it. Visiting him at his home and listening to his stories "the world was once again saved" for me, for he restored my faith in Danish having a role in stopping racism and the exploitation of Natives, whoever or wherever they may be !
Because my closest circle of friends at the time consisted of Finns, Africans, West Indians and other assorted foreigners, I had witnessed the same most paternalistic racists master race attitudes from colonial times masquerading as help; - directed towards my friends. It was down right painful for me too to live witnessing it.
So what a relief it was then to meet Jacob !
A.R.
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naparyaq/all,
I feel I have a duty as a human being to speak out against spiritual exploitation in all its forms, and I do--to the point of having lost so-called friends over it. However, I also feel that it would be wrong for me to claim to speak for anyone else. I generally say something along the lines of, "I think if you do some reasearch you'll find that many Native Americans" et cetera. If the person doesn't go off in a defensive snit, I recommend better books for them to read.
I'd love to know, from anyone on the board, what else I could do as a writer and a human being.
I think there used to be a list up on one of the NAFPS sites of things non-Natives who would like to help with Native causes in general can do, but IIRC it wasn't completely geared toward stopping exploitation. Is it still up somewhere...?
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Go to Our Red Earth.
http://www.geocities.com/ourredearth/rabl.html
http://pathshop.com/do_not.htm#nono
http://www.geocities.com/ourredearth/help.html
http://www.geocities.com/ourredearth/why.html
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The very list I meant, thanks! I thought I'd seen it at NAFPS.
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the book by Rupert Ross , "Dancing with a Ghost", might help people understand why non native and mixed blood supporters can be so helpful, when it comes to communicating with arrogant mouthy non natives who don't listen and won't take "No" for an answer .
I've read the book. I highly recommend it.
My opinion - I can see no reason for non-Natives not to participate in stopping exploitation. I think that they not only should, but indeed have a particular obligation and responsiblity to. To ignore that which you know is wrong is to be party to it.
I did not speak...
"First they came for the Communists ;
I did not speak because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews ;
I did not speak because I was not a Jew.
Then they came to fetch the workers, members of trade unions ;
I did not speak because I was not a trade unionist.
Afterwards, they came for the Catholics ;
I did not say anything because I was a Protestant.
Eventually they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak ..."
Martin Niemöller,Pastor
Dachau, 1942.