NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: nahualqo on March 19, 2007, 02:37:09 pm
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I believe it is important that you retain your credibility by refusing to go into extremism against Native Americans. McCarthism is passe. Unless you are from their tribal culture and you have the authority to judge another Native American from within their unique tribal beliefs, I would suggest to err on the side of leniency where Native Americans are concerned.
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I believe it is important that you retain your credibility by refusing to go into extremism against Native Americans. McCarthism is passe. Unless you are from their tribal culture and you have the authority to judge another Native American from within their unique tribal beliefs, I would suggest to err on the side of leniency where Native Americans are concerned.
I am quite certain that an entry in the Research Needed section will not have negative effects on my credibility, as the very title of this category reflects that there is doubt which further research, preferably by other persons in this forum, can clarify one way or the other.
Comparing an entry in the Research Needed section to McCarthyism, however, applies just the extremism you are advising me against. I am not engaging in a witch hunt here, nor am I looking for un-American activities in anybody. If I was repeating McCarthyist attitudes, as an aside, I wouldn't be giving a person the benefit of doubt by chosing the Research Needed category.
Your first sentence in the above quote, however - '...important that you retain your credibility by refusing to go into extremism against Native Americans' - suggests that I am going out of my way to seek, and find, fault with persons who happen to be ndn, i.e. vulgo racism. I am not contributing to this forum because I want to do something *against* ndns, but because I'd like to contribute to exposing frauds and plastics. I joined CERTAIN (Coalition to End Race-based Targeting of American INdians) in 1998 or 99, and am still a member there. You are welcome to inquire with people there regarding my credibility, my conduct, and my actions.
Quite frankly, I do not see how my activities here at NAFS in general or the above entry merit an accusation of racism.
When Sikyea's name came up while researching another person, I did some further research, during which I noticed the varying tribal affiliations mentioned in connection with him. If the nations named were wellknown here, I'd have put that down to people not being able to listen. However, the different ethnic groups, although mostly belonging to the Dene nation, are everything but widely known here. As far as I gathered, tribal affiliations aren't to be taken that lightly as to be changed whenever this feels convenient, and that "who claims you" is a crucial question.
The most important reason for entering this into the Research Needed section were the results which indicate this person is selling ceremonies both in Europe and in South Africa. As far as I gathered, this is a main indicator for suspecting someone as a fraud, as ceremonies should not be offered for money, never and under no circumstances, no money should be offered, no payment demanded, and that even the admission of non-ndn persons to ceremonies is a controversial matter.
You may have noticed that when I first joined the forum, my contributions were posted by other persons. This was partly due to my situation re internet access, but I also wanted to have my research checked before it went online, by persons who have been doing such research far longer than me and who knew more about the matter than I did then. I don't assume I have as yet learned all there is to learn, but I do realize that a false or premature accusation will do harm and sought advise in cases of doubt. Seeking and appreciating advice, I have learned, can contribute to one's credibility, but don't harm it.
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Still you are self appointed in your duties. I only made a polite suggestion not to fall into over enthusiasm so that you insult our sensibilities. If someone is abusing tribal knowledge, responsibility or wisdom that falls back upon the Nation to police their own people. I am not an authority on the practices of all tribal behaviors and practices and I can only speak in a general way. I agree with your interests in exposing frauds but I am not comfortable with you standing as judge and jury of another Native American if he or she is practicing their own traditions for foreign audiences. I agree with momma porcupine about defending against outright frauds. I haven't made a decision yet on those Native spiritual leaders bringing others into their practices in order to hold let's say sweat lodges. This is new knowledge to me and I have to think a long time on things like this before I find my heart to make a decision.
I need to hear from those that have instructed Non-Natives to officiate their particular cerimonies to understand their reasoning. I can agree with Sweat Lodges if they keep the tradition with proper instruction and respect the tradition. I cannot agree with someone not recognized as a proper Lakota elder that has properly earned officiating an Inipi cerimony for instance.
There are many areas of our beliefs that really take special knowledge that few are able to understand or even be accepted spiritually by those spirits the cerimony invokes. We need special provenance that cannot be easily distributed among our people let alone others that haven't the background or belief system or reality architecture to absorb and respect these traditions. One cannot read a book or even face proper instruction and believe they can officiate our most sacred spiritual beliefs. I don't believe it is a reasonable expectation that one may blithely connect to what is most sacred.
I never acused you of racism. I believe that if you believe my meanings to mean that I accuse you of racism then you do not understand me. I am reluctant to accept your judgement against Native Americans as authoritative because you are not of their culture or tradition. We aren't like catholic missionaries, ideologues we have a great deal more flexibility to accept another's beliefs even those that are different from ours. However, any judgement that leads to shame is something that is powerful that should be weilded by those in authority to judge their offenses is any were made according their their tradition. I don't trust the judgements on two Lakota Medicine people spoken of as they have been acquaintenances of mine long time ago and they seemed like they respected their ancestors at the time. This speaks volumes to me, it speaks louder than initiating Non-Natives to officiate sweat lodges. I disagree however that anyone that has been taught to officiate that is a Non-Native can actually instruct other Non-Natives to officiate Native American sweat lodges.
Why don't they just take a sauna? Baring one's spirit or soul in the Sweat Lodge is not entertainment, I just don't get it. What's the allure?
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Still you are self appointed in your duties.
I got invited here, and it has always been evident that I am not native.
I only made a polite suggestion not to fall into over enthusiasm so that you insult our sensibilities.
Excuse me, but I believe that terms like "McCarthyism" and "extremism" do not quite match the description of a polite suggestion.
I agree with your interests in exposing frauds but I am not comfortable with you standing as judge and jury of another Native American if he or she is practicing their own traditions for foreign audiences.
I am in no way 'standing as judge and jury'. I explained the criteria I use in my research. Furthermore, my activities here are mostly researching names that are mentioned in entries by other persons and trying to find out whether there are any activities in Europe. If you see this as over-zealous on my part, I suppose we have to agree that we disagree in this respect.
As far as I am concerned as a person and my motivation, conduct, and credibility are being questioned, I repeat: please do not hesitate to contact CERTAIN to inquire about me. You are also welcome to start a new thread in this forum and inquire what people here think of me and my contributions, and criticize my involvement publically and not just in this thread. As I have also been on the ndn-aim list for several years, you can also inquire there.
I also don't happen to be the only white person to contribute here, and I do wonder why you aren't voicing similar concerns over the activities of other white persons. So why is it you seem to be concerned over my contributions and motivation and not about others in a similar way?
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I don't think anyone was extreme one way or the other. It is just research with what is available. Then it gets tossed around in a conversation until someone can validate what is being looked one way or the other. We all know that there is corruption of ceremonies, we all know that some are being sold to make a living. The Nations know this also, but there is little they can do except say do not do this. Some Nations Medicine People are paid for services and Ceremonies, some are not. But they are practiced on their own ground. When they are not, and sold for individual purpose and mixed with Nuage does it become questionable. Another questionable thing is when a individual becomes a Medicine Person in a week under the instruction of someone named "Thunder Chicken". It may require some research. frederica
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Ingeborg, I don't think he was referring to you or the other non Natives, but to NDNs on the board.
Obviously some NDNs strongly disagree. Ironically we've had NDNs come to NAFPS before and accuse us of going easy on frauds who are actually NDN, saying just the opposite, that NDNs above all have no excuse.
This thread remains under Research for a reason. So far all I've seen points to him actually being Native and even having some knowledge, but still doing wrong by selling ceremony.
It might also help to remind everyone that we are from being McCarthy-like. McCarthy had the full power of the federal govt behind him, based his accusations on rumors, or on people being vaguely tied to people who had been vaguely tied to Communists.
Above all, McCarthy never found one single actual Communist, and he strted his witch hunt as a cynical ploy to get re elected. So I can confidently say there is absolutely nothing, zero, zip, we have in common.
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I am glad that you feel that you have nothing in common with McCarthy. I believe that NDN's that have strayed should be counseled by their own people if possible. Even Sitting Bull played a part in the wild West shows. The point is, are they doing it as entertainment or are they doing it for serious acts of entering the Magical body for want of better English words. There just aren't proper English words that properly convey the real power and magic. It always ends up sounding misleading.
How can you convey what we believe when a people and a language don't have the proper words to properly explain and make stick what is real? Also, I believe we have had too much shame heaped on us by the colonial society to go around heaping it on each other publicly. Call me a soft touch!
Ingeborg, I don't think he was referring to you or the other non Natives, but to NDNs on the board.
Obviously some NDNs strongly disagree. Ironically we've had NDNs come to NAFPS before and accuse us of going easy on frauds who are actually NDN, saying just the opposite, that NDNs above all have no excuse.
This thread remains under Research for a reason. So far all I've seen points to him actually being Native and even having some knowledge, but still doing wrong by selling ceremony.
It might also help to remind everyone that we are from being McCarthy-like. McCarthy had the full power of the federal govt behind him, based his accusations on rumors, or on people being vaguely tied to people who had been vaguely tied to Communists.
Above all, McCarthy never found one single actual Communist, and he strted his witch hunt as a cynical ploy to get re elected. So I can confidently say there is absolutely nothing, zero, zip, we have in common.
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Even advertising a Sweat Lodge ceremony raises concerns . All the Elders I have known were horrified at people advertising ceremonies . There is a very strong feeling , the right way for people to come to a ceremony , is for people to come and offer tobbaco ask for help . There is reason things are done in this way .
Some of the links seem outdated , so I am not sure if Tim was actually charging for ceremonies , but if he was , there isn't much question this is wrong . ( except in the minds of some people who support exploitation or don't know better )
If you look at the top of the "Research needed" page , "About this catagory" , it says ;
"Anyone whose website blatantly states a price being charged for a ceremony IS A FRAUD. Period. No research needed!"
And then there is this ;
http://www.newagefraud.org/
Native people DO NOT believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching. Any who charge you even a penny are NOT authentic.
If anything I think people here tend to give exploiters the benifit of any small doubt , and probably a lot of people posted other places, rightly belong in the "frauds" catagory .
nahualqo
I believe it is important that you retain your credibility by refusing to go into extremism against Native Americans. McCarthism is passe. Unless you are from their tribal culture and you have the authority to judge another Native American from within their unique tribal beliefs, I would suggest to err on the side of leniency where Native Americans are concerned.
nahualqo
If someone is abusing tribal knowledge, responsibility or wisdom that falls back upon the Nation to police their own people.
nahualqo
I agree with your interests in exposing frauds but I am not comfortable with you standing as judge and jury of another Native American if he or she is practicing their own traditions for foreign audiences.
What you are saying is that non native people ( who are so often the only audience these frauds and exploiters can get ) , don't have the authority to make a judgement that someone is a fraud or an exploiter , even if they are selling ceremonies , and going against the wishes of their tribal Elders . You are also saying Native people and Elders who ARE authorities on their culture , who repeatedly say selling ceremonies is NOT OK , can't be supported by anyone except people in their own tribe .
If this is really your opinion , it would make it impossible to stop exploiters from setting up buisness in any non native community.
Selling ceremonies is not acceptable in almost all tribal traditions . The people who do this are almost always exploiters . Being involved with exploiters may be dangerous to peoples well being . But you seem to be suggesting non native people don't have a right to protect other non native people by educating people in their community how to recognize and avoid frauds and exploiters ?
nahualqo
Still you are self appointed in your duties.
Supporting traditional people and Elders in their request that the commercial exploitation of traditions stops , is not being "self appointed". If you haven't personally known any Elders who were upset by the commercialization of Spiritual traditions , I can only conclude you haven't known many ( or any ) Elders .
nahualqo
I agree with momma porcupine about defending against outright frauds.
We probably agree on some things , but I am just as opposed to exploitation as I am to outright frauds . By the sounds of many of your comments nahualqo , you aren't really clear why selling ceremonies and Spiritual traditions should be considered a problem at all .
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1074.0 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1074.0)
nahualqo reply #2
I am new here but I can sum things up pretty quickly. Not only are you involved with religious policing but you are attacking some people's livelihood.
Oh I see , if people are degrading Spiritual traditions by turning them into a commercial enterprise , and we say anything about it , we are ATTACKING their livelihood?
nahualqo
I don't have any sympathy for those that are making money on our beliefs falsely but you have got to know that you are sticking your foot into two areas people most often hold sacred, their religious beliefs and their money and their money is usually the more sacred.
I really doubt anyone selling religion holds that religion sacred , which brings us back to your point about how mean and nasty we are , by getting in the way of people selling someone elses religion .
nahualqo
Also, you should not let yourself become extremists. Let the other side turn to extremism it ruins their credibility. Strategically speaking it is always best if you hold the middle ground where you can remain on solid footing with yourself and others.
If we support those Elders who say "OUR SPIRITUALITY IS NOT FOR SALE " we are extremists ? Are you suggesting the middle ground would be agreeing people should be able to make "some" money selling ceremonies ? Even if ALL the Elders who are not known exploiters all say NO ? Again I am sure the exploiters would completely agree with your opening up an opprotunity for them . A "middle ground" . I resent being called an "extremist" for not supporting some peoples shallow monetrary self intrest .
nahualqo
I am reluctant to accept your judgement against Native Americans as authoritative because you are not of their culture or tradition.
nahualqo
However, any judgement that leads to shame is something that is powerful that should be weilded by those in authority to judge their offenses is any were made according their their tradition.
If someone is selling ceremonies , and Elders in their tribe say it isn't OK , those Elders DO have the authority to say that , and people have a right to support those Elders in their protests , whether exploiters like it or not . You would think anyone who actually cares about preserving uncorrupted traditions would greatly appreciate any strong voice that supports the Elders and speaks out against those commercializing Spiritual traditions . Ingeborg does that really well . If you actually cared about traditions as you profess , I would expect you would support her , but instead you repeatedly say things that point to another agenda , one that opens the way for exploitation .
nahualqo
I need to hear from those that have instructed Non-Natives to officiate their particular cerimonies to understand their reasoning.
Maybe you need to hear from some of the communities and people who have been affected by these non Lakota who are leading Lakota ceremonies outside the Lakota community . If these Lakota Elders want these people leading Lakota ceremonies so much , why don't they keep them in the Lakota community ? It should be the community served that decides it's Spiritual leaders , not someone from somewhere else .
And what an interesting double standard - you are suggesting it is OK for tribal ceremonies to be passed outside the tribe , but then you declare that when this happens, no one outside the tribe , in the community where they come to be practiced , should have any role in policing them . Sounds like you are advocating to make things easy for exploiters to exploit without interferance . Is that your intention here?
Quote frederica
Some Nations Medicine People are paid for services and Ceremonies, some are not.
It would be helpful if you could specify which nations pay their Medicine people and for what services , and if these services are something that might be rightly sold outside the Nation . I know the Navajho are paid for conducting a sing , and Curandero's in South America are paid for personal assistance . Maybe you know some other examples ? As we are trying to educate people how to recognize and avoid frauds and exploiters , and we repeatedly tell people charging for ceremonies is wrong , it kind of muddies the message to say some in Nations this is OK , without giving specific information .
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Those are the only 2 that I know of. When a friend of mine son came of age, she had a Sing. It was costly. But a lot of that paid for many things, ie 5 day Ceremony, food, gas, and other things. And that was a long time ago. So beyond those two, I know of none. And any aside from those I view as personal gain. frederica
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You are preaching to the choir momma porcupine. The minute you bring in elders like I suggested then you are bringing in the exact right people to make such judgements. It is the responsibility of elders of that tribe who are best at knowing what to do with their own people that stray. I don't believe in supporting exploiters in any way whatsoever, so let's get that clear. If you want to know what I am saying just ask me, don't paraphrase me with a stinger meaning something that I did not mean or say. I am not familiar with the European or Australian scene, I have a hard time keeping up with my local scene.
I believe that if non-Natives wish to illuminate a situation with a NDN, then do so with the tribal elders. Get to the bottom of things but also get input from what the elders wish to do. If the elders give counsel to allow non-Natives authority to act in their behalf, that is the elders right. Acting in communion with elders in a case by case basis I whole heartedly agree, in fact that would make me feel a whole lot better.
It has been my experience that non-Natives are too readily available to make mischief on Native Americans and to prevent any semblance of impropriety, communicate with the elders of the tribe and let them know exactly what you are doing and bother to get their support before taking specific action!
I personally have never encountered anyone charging money for sweats. I have never experienced someone charging money for cerimonies. I don't cruise the internet sites looking for it either. If you say it is going on then I am willing to take your word for it. However, that in no way construes my behavior as supporting or agreeing with such behavior.
Just because you are able to lay out your argument with a critical eye and whip around with Cartesian logic that would make Descartes proud does not mean you have answered the real question, should you shame the person or should the elders speak with those in error. I am really big on trying to talk sense with people first before I bring out the big guns.
I don't know about your family, but my family has been through quite enough hell for me to learn a more peaceful outlook towards solving important problems. If someone is selling phony cerimonies that have no basis in fact is there a crime being committed against any tribe? I believe that we create our own worlds. If someone is abusing and selling things that they shouldn't, there is a spiritual component that will kick in no matter what we say and do that will be harder to get out from under than anything we might say.
I am not your judge, I am asking for you to judge yourselves. It is you who must be aware of the outcomes of your actions because being right doesn't always prevent you from doing wrong. Wisdom and patience prevent us from falling into any pitfalls our ego and self importance may trip us into. I would first apprise people of their duties and responsibilities before using the big guns of shame, that is all. I have no authority to persuade you to do anything that you are not already doing. It is your own conscience that will dictate your feelings about yourself and what you are doing. I am not in your shoes, I do not know what you are seeing and doing. Thereby I am only asking for wisdom from you all to know the difference between what is real, factual and necessary and what is false and destructive!
Even advertising a Sweat Lodge ceremony raises concerns . All the Elders I have known were horrified at people advertising ceremonies . There is a very strong feeling , the right way for people to come to a ceremony , is for people to come and offer tobbaco ask for help . There is reason things are done in this way .
Some of the links seem outdated , so I am not sure if Tim was actually charging for ceremonies , but if he was , there isn't much question this is wrong . ( except in the minds of some people who support exploitation or don't know better )
If you look at the top of the "Research needed" page , "About this catagory" , it says ;
"Anyone whose website blatantly states a price being charged for a ceremony IS A FRAUD. Period. No research needed!"
And then there is this ;
http://www.newagefraud.org/
Native people DO NOT believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching. Any who charge you even a penny are NOT authentic.
If anything I think people here tend to give exploiters the benifit of any small doubt , and probably a lot of people posted other places, rightly belong in the "frauds" catagory .
nahualqo
I believe it is important that you retain your credibility by refusing to go into extremism against Native Americans. McCarthism is passe. Unless you are from their tribal culture and you have the authority to judge another Native American from within their unique tribal beliefs, I would suggest to err on the side of
leniency where Native Americans are concerned.
nahualqo
If someone is abusing tribal knowledge, responsibility or wisdom that falls back upon the Nation to police their own people.
nahualqo
I agree with your interests in exposing frauds but I am not comfortable with you standing as judge and jury of another Native American if he or she is practicing their own traditions for foreign audiences.
What you are saying is that non native people ( who are so often the only audience these frauds and exploiters can get ) , don't have the authority to make a judgement that someone is a fraud or an exploiter , even if they are selling ceremonies , and going against the wishes of their tribal Elders . You are also saying Native people and Elders who ARE authorities on their culture , who repeatedly say selling ceremonies is NOT OK , can't be supported by anyone except people in their own tribe .
If this is really your opinion , it would make it impossible to stop exploiters from setting up buisness in any non native community.
Selling ceremonies is not acceptable in almost all tribal traditions . The people who do this are almost always exploiters . Being involved with exploiters may be dangerous to peoples well being . But you seem to be suggesting non native people don't have a right to protect other non native people by educating people in their community how to recognize and avoid frauds and exploiters ?
nahualqo
Still you are self appointed in your duties.
Supporting traditional people and Elders in their request that the commercial exploitation of traditions stops , is not being "self appointed". If you haven't personally known any Elders who were upset by the commercialization of Spiritual traditions , I can only conclude you haven't known many ( or any ) Elders .
nahualqo
I agree with momma porcupine about defending against outright frauds.
We probably agree on some things , but I am just as opposed to exploitation as I am to outright frauds . By the sounds of many of your comments nahualqo , you aren't really clear why selling ceremonies and Spiritual traditions should be considered a problem at all .
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1074.0 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1074.0)
nahualqo reply #2
I am new here but I can sum things up pretty quickly. Not only are you involved with religious policing but you are attacking some people's livelihood.
Oh I see , if people are degrading Spiritual traditions by turning them into a commercial enterprise , and we say anything about it , we are ATTACKING their livelihood?
nahualqo
I don't have any sympathy for those that are making money on our beliefs falsely but you have got to know that you are sticking your foot into two areas people most often hold sacred, their religious beliefs and their money and their money is usually the more sacred.
I really doubt anyone selling religion holds that religion sacred , which brings us back to your point about how mean and nasty we are , by getting in the way of people selling someone elses religion .
nahualqo
Also, you should not let yourself become extremists. Let the other side turn to extremism it ruins their credibility. Strategically speaking it is always best if you hold the middle ground where you can remain on solid footing with yourself and others.
If we support those Elders who say "OUR SPIRITUALITY IS NOT FOR SALE " we are extremists ? Are you suggesting the middle ground would be agreeing people should be able to make "some" money selling ceremonies ? Even if ALL the Elders who are not known exploiters all say NO ? Again I am sure the exploiters would completely agree with your opening up an opprotunity for them . A "middle ground" . I resent being called an "extremist" for not supporting some peoples shallow monetrary self intrest .
nahualqo
I am reluctant to accept your judgement against Native Americans as authoritative because you are not of their culture or tradition.
nahualqo
However, any judgement that leads to shame is something that is powerful that should be weilded by those in authority to judge their offenses is any were made according their their tradition.
If someone is selling ceremonies , and Elders in their tribe say it isn't OK , those Elders DO have the authority to say that , and people have a right to support those Elders in their protests , whether exploiters like it or not . You would think anyone who actually cares about preserving uncorrupted traditions would greatly appreciate any strong voice that supports the Elders and speaks out against those commercializing Spiritual traditions . Ingeborg does that really well . If you actually cared about traditions as you profess , I would expect you would support her , but instead you repeatedly say things that point to another agenda , one that opens the way for exploitation .
nahualqo
I need to hear from those that have instructed Non-Natives to officiate their particular cerimonies to understand their reasoning.
Maybe you need to hear from some of the communities and people who have been affected by these non Lakota who are leading Lakota ceremonies outside the Lakota community . If these Lakota Elders want these people leading Lakota ceremonies so much , why don't they keep them in the Lakota community ? It should be the community served that decides it's Spiritual leaders , not someone from somewhere else .
And what an interesting double standard - you are suggesting it is OK for tribal ceremonies to be passed outside the tribe , but then you declare that when this happens, no one outside the tribe , in the community where they come to be practiced , should have any role in policing them . Sounds like you are advocating to make things easy for exploiters to exploit without interferance . Is that your intention here?
Quote frederica
Some Nations Medicine People are paid for services and Ceremonies, some are not.
It would be helpful if you could specify which nations pay their Medicine people and for what services , and if these services are something that might be rightly sold outside the Nation . I know the Navajho are paid for conducting a sing , and Curandero's in South America are paid for personal assistance . Maybe you know some other examples ? As we are trying to educate people how to recognize and avoid frauds and exploiters , and we repeatedly tell people charging for ceremonies is wrong , it kind of muddies the message to say some in Nations this is OK , without giving specific information .
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nahaulgo,
if you have never encountered ceremony sellers, good for you. I have met more than one, unfortunately. One, I have been asked by tribal members of that person's tribe, to do what I can to expose him. Others prey on friends off mine and I try to clue them in. Myself, I was almost raped by one of these creeps when I was young and naieve. In a perfect world, we would not have to have a site to expose frauds. But this is not a perfect world. The ones who sell ceremoioonies to gullible non-Indians are promoting stereotypes. Then, when the non-NDN finds they have been taken in, many turn and blame it on NDNs. That is a form of racism. I am not for sticking my head in the sand and going "lalalalala. I don't see that bad person over there!"
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nahualqo
I don't believe in supporting exploiters in any way whatsoever, so let's get that clear.
Maybe you don't mean to support exploiters but your continuing insistance that people charging for ceremonies need to be dealt with on a case by case basis , or we might be being unfair , would seem to imply you believe charging for ceremonies might be OK in some situations . If we know the Lakota tribe does not agree with charging for ceremonies , it really isn't necessary to ask them every time there is someone who is charging for a Lakota Sweat Lodge ceremony , if this is still not OK , or if they have changed their minds yet .You say you don't support exploitation but you contantly critize our efforts to stop this .
Isn't that a double message ?
nahualqo
I personally have never encountered anyone charging money for sweats. I have never experienced someone charging money for cerimonies.
Interesting that you admit to having absolutely NO experince in this , in yet you feel you have a right to give us advice on how to proceed .
nahualqo
Acting in communion with elders in a case by case basis I whole heartedly agree, in fact that would make me feel a whole lot better.
Assuming the people selling ceremonies have had any contact with Native people , most of these people who get posted here , who are selling ceremonies , HAVE been repeatedly confronted by Elders . These people who are charging for ceremonies don't care . They lie . They KNOW what they are doing is totally in disrespect of both the Elders , and the traditional teachings , but they continue . If you expect Elders are going to be able to show up every time someone starts charging for ceremonies , to gently remind them of their duties and responibilities you are dreaming . Especially as these exploiters are usually operating outside a Native community . Elders have other things to do . If someone is charging for traditional ceremonies and teachings there is a problem . If you respect what the Elders have to say about this , it seems you would be willing to support them , without expecting them to perform the impossible task of addressing every single incident of abuse individually .
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The people that are NDN and selling, this does get back to the Nation, and it is dealt with. But it is not always successful. One of the problems is a lot of these people selling Ceremonies are questionable themselves. Many have no legimate ties to a Nation, Tribe or Band. Many no one is familiar with. I have never heard of at least half of these people here and in Europe. I quit taking things at face-value years ago, and will check it out first. A good example is this "Firewalker", claims to be Cherokee in Luxenburg. Ingelborg found one of his sites. Mostly Nuage, plus a mixture. One things I am still pondering is he offers "teen vampire". I have no earthly idea what that is. I don't think anything we have needs to be mixed with whatever that is. frederica
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Why are we continuing to have this conversation? I don't support fraud nor the selling of cerimonies. My suggestion is to seek redress from Native American misuse of cerimonies by involving the elders of their tribe! If they are outright frauds then call the police. If they are rapists, call the police! If I have the moral courage to seek proper input by Lakota elders when real Lakota Native American spiritual people are selling cerimonies why on earth are you reactive? If you are in support of Native American leadership then you have a stronger case. What gives? It seems to me that you are defending irresponsible actions that take elders out of the loop! If you are keeping elders in the loop then you are satisfying my moral points raised! Enough already or I will believe that you want to act without any elder support whatsoever!
nahaulgo,
if you have never encountered ceremony sellers, good for you. I have met more than one, unfortunately. One, I have been asked by tribal members of that person's tribe, to do what I can to expose him. Others prey on friends off mine and I try to clue them in. Myself, I was almost raped by one of these creeps when I was young and naieve. In a perfect world, we would not have to have a site to expose frauds. But this is not a perfect world. The ones who sell ceremoioonies to gullible non-Indians are promoting stereotypes. Then, when the non-NDN finds they have been taken in, many turn and blame it on NDNs. That is a form of racism. I am not for sticking my head in the sand and going "lalalalala. I don't see that bad person over there!"
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I believe that if non-Natives wish to illuminate a situation with a NDN, then do so with the tribal elders. Get to the bottom of things but also get input from what the elders wish to do.
Nahualqo, I am European and I understand your points - well, as far as a non-Native can understand. I have some questions - not because I want to argue about this, but because I´d like to do things in a way that shows respect to Indian people.
The worst abuse, I would say, is here in Europe. How do I get hold of the tribal elders of a certain fraud? If I ask him of a name, he would mention another fraud. Even non-Native ceremonyleaders refer to Native exploiters as their elders.
Say I get a name (which rarely happens), most elders are not on the Internet. So do you mean I should call them in US? Do I call every time I see an advert promoting a pay-to-pay ceremony? Do I call for each incident? These frauds usually keep far away from their elders and even their people.
Traditional Lakotas have asked me to do whatever I can to stop the exploitation of their ceremonies in Europe. Does this mean I have to call the tribe of a a Native person, who is not Lakota, when he is selling Lakota ceremonies? You know, most exploiters in this country selling Lakota ceremonies are not Lakotas. Do I have to call his tribe? Or is it enough with him doing Lakota ceremonies?
Or - because most of us over here could not afford to keep calling USA and we don´t know where to call - is it better to ignore the abuse?
Thanks for your time :)
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If you are going to be active in this area, I suggest that you use the Indian Telegraph and start connecting to people. Here is a website that has a large list of Native American sites! http://www.nativeculturelinks.com/organizations.html In our culture we ask someone, who knows some else who knows. It works! It sounds to me like you have a real problem in Europe. Any Native American Elder is willing to give you his tribe, clan or society proudly. If any person in question cannot relate to you the lineage of their knowledge from where it derives then it is suspect. There are some secret societies but they are well known secret societies. Anyone's teachings can't be way different or come from a different culture. A plains culture for instance has their own methods that are similar from tribe to tribe with different languages but similar content or styles. The full war bonnet for instance is a plains tradition so someone from an Eastern Woodland culture that wears a war bonnet does not have fidelity to their own culture or doesn't know it. If you really want to you can find plenty of information about people, if they are on tribal roles for instance, all recognized tribes have them. If you don't do the due diligence then you risk mischaracterizing someone and disgracing them. It sounds to me that you are dealing with mostly outright frauds in Europe and if you are continuing to get a certain name as their teacher then you know where the source is. It could be possible that those that get involved are only complicit by wishful thinkiing. Real Native American spiritual knowledge is very hard to come by even for Native Americans who wish to follow their own traditions!
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nahualqo, you wrote in another thread:
I was unaware the problem had become so prevelant!
But, as Debbie said, you criticize us for this site, and even call us hard-headed. So here's some more info for you:
When you google for the term sweatlodge in German language, google comes up with 69,900 sites.
When you google 'sweatlodge + date', again in German language, google presents 18,300 hits.
When you google the English term 'sweatlodge', it's 64,100 results, and 15,000 for 'sweatlodge + date'.
Google results for vision quest in German language: 65,000 hits
Google results for 'vision quest' + date: 20,000 hits.
Googling these terms in English language: 771,000 hits for vision quest, 180,000 for vision quest + date.
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I never said you were hard headed. I believe you are hard hearted. I support this site. I also believe that there is a right way and a wrong way that can disgrace and hurt Native American people before you know all of the facts or before you communicate with their elders. There are people of honor and respect in every Native American tribe who will support your search for the truth. I ask that you make sure they are in the loop and I gave you a web site with many Native American resources. There are Indian Centers in cities all over America that support their Native American populations. Make use of their help. I can't believe that there are 69,000 Native Americans on tribal roles living in Germany! I know there are some because I have met them all over Europe. I haven't been in Europe for 20 years and there were few Native American happenings there. There was an United Nations council for Natives of the Western Hemisphere when I was in Switzerland.
I just did a google of sweat lodge germany and I got a lot of hits but some were like this one http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/index_other_sites.html, here is another one http://www.rachel.org/BULLETIN/bulletin.cfm?Issue_ID=2120.
I also found this one where they were having a sweat lodge for tourists. http://www.worldviewz.net/bavaria_artie_about.html. It advertises that Native Americans are leading the sweat cerimonies and fire cerimonies. Are they getting paid for this? Are they selling sweat lodges? Are they using their own tribal cerimonies or are they giving Disney land cerimonies? Are they being respectful of their traditions. This advertisement does not go into those details. Why would anyone go to Germany for a traditional Native American spiritual sweat lodge if it is spiritual? I don't get it, why would someone seek to go to Germany in order to experience Native American spirituality? It doesn't sound very proper. But at the same time they could just be employees of a Disney land fantasy. The whole thing could just be a feel good fantasy! I can't imagine a tourist going through a real sweat, it's not easy. Are they just having a sauna?
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There are reasons why exploiters of Native traditions are being posted here ( as has already been explained ) If someone has a website advertising and charging for ceremonies , it isn't a grey area that needs to be researched , or gossip , ( which can be incorrect ) Why should we worry about unfairly disgracing someone when we know traditional Elders strongly object to what they are publicly advertising on the internet ? People selling ceremonies have already disgraced themselves . It would be nice if exploiters would notice that they are disgracing themselves , and stop .
If anyone reading this thread isn't sure if people here are acting in support of recognized tribal Elders , the many articles in link posted below might help clarify the situation .
http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm)
People speaking out against exploitation of traditional ceremonies and fraud . are not "self appointed", though apparently some of our critics are.
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We act the way we do because we are not because of what another does. If you want respect then behave beyond reproach. the criticism I bring up is about style your bringing up others under the light of your scrutiny with a far brighter blazing light. You should always be concerned about disgracing someone unfairly. That is why elders discipline others. They have a wiser manner about them.
[Al's note: Edited out yet more rudeness and personal attacks. What will it take for you to start acting like an adult?]
There are reasons why exploiters of Native traditions are being posted here ( as has already been explained ) If someone has a website advertising and charging for ceremonies , it isn't a grey area that needs to be researched , or gossip , ( which can be incorrect ) Why should we worry about unfairly disgracing someone when we know traditional Elders strongly object to what they are publicly advertising on the internet ? People selling ceremonies have already disgraced themselves . It would be nice if exploiters would notice that they are disgracing themselves , and stop .
If anyone reading this thread isn't sure if people here are acting in support of recognized tribal Elders , the many articles in link posted below might help clarify the situation .
http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm)
People speaking out against exploitation of traditional ceremonies and fraud . are not "self appointed", though apparently some of our critics are.
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If you are going to be active in this area, I suggest that you use the Indian Telegraph and start connecting to people.
The full war bonnet for instance is a plains tradition so someone from an Eastern Woodland culture that wears a war bonnet does not have fidelity to their own culture or doesn't know it. If you really want to you can find plenty of information about people, if they are on tribal roles for instance, all recognized tribes have them.
Real Native American spiritual knowledge is very hard to come by even for Native Americans who wish to follow their own traditions!
Thank you for your reply, Nahualqo. Although most of my questions didn´t get replied.
I am not "going to be active in this area...", I have been active for seven years. But I am still listening and learning. And you seemed to have all the answers. I am fully aware of the things you informed me about. You know, even "nons" might actually know something about Native cultures, like the fact that the Plains cultures use full war bonnet and other cultures don´t.... Or that Native spiritual knowledge is hard to come by. The nice thing with this board is that nons have always been welcomed and the same rule goes for nons and Ndn:s alike: as long as you´re respectful it is perfectly OK to ask questions and share your point of views.
So, anyway, I take it you want us over here in Europe to phone elders in USA every time we see a pay-to-pray ceremony? That, in itself, would mean most people over here who are against the abuse would just not bother. Many of them are not even comfortabe with speaking English. So if we cannot contact elders each time, I take it your basic advice is to just ignore the abuse? Does that also mean that we should stay away from informing other Europeans or even - in some cases - warning them?
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I am known as a plain speaking person. For all of the misphrasing of my meanings on this board leads me to believe that you are also disrespectful to others. Please show me where I have condoned the sellng of cerimonies, I haven't and yet you paraphrase my meanings to infer something that is not there. Should I think that you are dishonest? If you misparaphrase my simple words then indeed you are unreliable and I don't trust your intent. If you don't choose to get in touch with elders then I know that you have another agenda and I will spread the word to your deceit and hidden agendas.
Native people selling cerimonies is an issue for Native Elders to address. If they authorize you to act in their behalf on a case by case basis then I will believe you are in it for the good. If you don't choose or desire to include the elders of tribes of Native Americans that are suspect of selling cerimonies then I don't believe you have any authority whatsover to address Native Americans selling cerimonies. The responsibility falls on you to behave in accordance tribal elders specific issues and permissions. The only way you can address selling of cerimonies is on a case by case basis anyways. How else are you going to make your accusations, blame everybody?
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If you don't choose to get in touch with elders then I know that you have another agenda and I will spread the word to your deceit and hidden agendas.
WOW, is that a threat? :o I had the honour of spending time with lovely Lakota traditionalists. They tought me that women are sacred. You do not threaten women. They also said that it is OK to give advice in a respectful way, then pull back because spirit will take care of it. So I do not go round and threaten people. I educate Europeans in an attempt to reduce the ongoing exploitation which quite often includes rapes, molestation, assults. I was trying to ask relevant questions. Obviously, we cannot phone elders each and every time we do something over here.
I am not here to argue about it, just wanted to ask some relevant questions. I wanted to know if you think there is an alternative for us? Or if we should just "close down"? But never mind. With the risk of having my very hidden agenda exposed (where is it??? It must be extremely hidden) I will carry on educating Europeans.
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Sheesh, will you please bother to do some reading before doing yet more ridiculous blanket accusations? You obviously haven't followed this issue at all.
One resolution by elders after another has asked for help from EVERYONE, including nonNatives, in ending frauds and ceremony selling. The first resolution was way back in the late 70s.
I've had about enough of your rudeness. You've been warned by private email and in public, and yet you can't even show basic common courtesy. You're obnoxious and talk down to people, yet you claimed in your first emails to me to be the keeper of a spiritual tradition. That can't be true, because you simply don't have the maturity or humility. Good bye.
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Of course , people who critize people who expose frauds and exploiters usually have "personal" reasons
that are interesting . People who haven't read all the threads in this forum , might want to check out who nahualqo is , through the link below . You will see why he is so strenuously objecting to what we do here .
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1097.0 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1097.0)
Nahualqo seems to be in the habit of getting attention , by presenting himself on line , as a person carrying traditional Spiritual knowledge , who is looking for worthy students . It turns out he claims to be a Spiritual leader of a secret traditional Toltec lineage .
When a poster in the sustained reaction forum asked nahualqo what his tribe was , and who his elders were , all they got was evasion and verbal abuse and basicly they were told it was none of their buisness because they aren't an Indian .
On the other hand, nahualqo dosn't seem to have any problem basking in the non native attention he gets by claiming to be a Toltec nagual - just- he doesn't think it is any non natives business to verify if he really deserves this attention or not .
Now he is telling Weheli he can't give any information about the Toltec elders because the FBI might assasinate them .
Re: Respect is earned mutually, listening to the concerns of others is wisdom
Reply #11
nahualqo
"Our tradition has been attacked by the Federal Government three times. Originally we were situatated near New Orleans. The last big military move by the Federal Government pushed us north from New Orleans to Baton Rouge, Lafayette and Lake Charles. The last leader of our tradition and my teacher was assassinated in 1987 after the FBI failed to convict him on trumped up Federal Charges. I would have no know and trust you very well before I would entrust you with my responsibilities towards the elders in our tradition. "
So apparently if we accept nahualqo's insistance that we find tribal elders before confronting frauds , he will be safe from any confrontations .
Seems all of nahualqo's eloquent "moral" concerns were nothing more than a self serving stratagy to make it more difficult for us to discredit frauds . ::)
YUCK
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Hmmm. If the FBI is after him, they could it be for fraud?? Oh, wait, did he mean FBI as in Full Blood Indians?? (Saw it on a T-shirt. ;) )
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If the FBI is after them why are they advertised on the Internet. frederica
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Frederica,
You sure have that right, This persons name is so easy to track down so it appears that all this drama about the FBI is just that. This elder he spoke of, in one of the many links on this forum, crossed over of natural causes and thats the truth of it.
I believe he is using this forum as a platform for his own personal aganda and is contradicting much of the time. With all these different threads he is posting on reminds me of the Cherokee story of the Rabbits and the coyote.
As far as I am concerned I have nothing further to speak to this person. We Cherokee do more than turn our backs but for this Nahualgo he is not even worth that energy.
Weheli ;D
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I agree, I think the contridictions in all his treads are interesting. Coyote is always a trickster, but he can be pretty evil also. Makes you wonder. frederica
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If you wish to see evil, then look to your own selves. You have at least 3 real Native American spiritual people in your frauds section. You discuss Nahualism as fraud, without discussing Nahualism itself. If you do have knowledge of Nahualism then you will know the answer to the question I posed. What methodology did the Mexica use to dominate the Snake tradition. Instead of answering that question which most Nahual Traditionalists would know. You pass it up . you stand as judge and juror of other Native Americans. Your list of OK Native Americans is a thin list of books and few writings. You misjudge Nahualism without knowing a seminal event in our long historical presence in North America, Mexico and Central America. By the way, you won't find the Mexica methodology in any text book. When I describe it to you then you will understand certain well known Mexican iconographies. So either answer the question I posed or stop your posing as if you have a clue about Nahualism.
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"If you wish to see evil, then look to your own selves."
Evil?
ROFLMAO!
"You have at least 3 real Native American spiritual people in your frauds section"
Somehow I don't think your idea of "real" will match up with what any other NDN, outside of a fraud or exploiter, would say. But go ahead and name them.
"either answer the question I posed or stop your posing as if you have a clue about Nahualism"
No.
You don't come in here and make demands, esp after you've been caught lying repeatedly and continue to disrespect Native women, something no actual Native spiritual leader would do.
Either grow up or leave.
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If I lied then show them with knowledge I would like to see that too.
"If you wish to see evil, then look to your own selves."
Evil?
ROFLMAO!
"You have at least 3 real Native American spiritual people in your frauds section"
Somehow I don't think your idea of "real" will match up with what any other NDN, outside of a fraud or exploiter, would say. But go ahead and name them.
"either answer the question I posed or stop your posing as if you have a clue about Nahualism"
No.
You don't come in here and make demands, esp after you've been caught lying repeatedly and continue to disrespect Native women, something no actual Native spiritual leader would do.
Either grow up or leave.
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I know you have already read the threads, including where you were repeatedly caught lying. So playing dumb won't work.
Once again, have enough courtesy to answer the questions. You've made accusations three times now about "real" elders we've called frauds. Name them, for the third time.
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Not being aware of the current leadership of my tribe is not lying. I did not learn our tribal traditions because it was unavailable to me when I sought it out. That is where your tactics are proving to be your undoing. By such political tactics you reduce the dialog to ad hominem attacks and internet cliches. If you say I am lying then please, I would like to know because it is not my intent nor my desire. In business and my professional life, I have a well known reputation for honesty. If you would have gotten to know me as I first requested then perhaps you would have known a great deal more about me before this.
You have Archie Fire Lame Deer and Leonard Crow Dog and myself in your frauds section. I can't answer for Archie Fire or Leonard Crow Dog but we don't sell cerimonies. We don't sell seminars. We don't publicize the particulars of our cerimonies and practices whatsoever. Our cosmology is well documented in the ethnological studies of Mayan and Aztec belief patterns which are similar in content and are based upon the same primal original sources. We no longer pull thorns through our toungue or pierce our penis' with cactus thorns and we don't cut out human hearts but those particulars weren't necessary to preserve the practices and beliefs.
I have spent the last few years investigating those people that were supposed to believe in our traditional knowledge and found little or no real knowledge of our practices and no knowledge of our cosmology. The only thing people knew were from the writings of Carlos Castenada which failed to give even a morsel of our very comprehensive cosmology. Knowing our cosmology is a requirement to understanding our practices.
I have found people with real knowledge to exchange with the head Rabbi of the Brestlove Hassidim in Safad, Israel. I spent time discussing our tradition with His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the Hindu mystic that brought the Krishna movement to the United States and translated the most read Bhagavad-Gita into English. I also spent time in the Yucatan, Belize, Honduras and Guatamala looking for other existing Nahualist traditions. I spent time exchanging traditional similarities with a Tibetan Shamanic traditionalist which is a pre-Buddhist tradition. I spent time to study and know where and how our traditional knowledge is preferable and where our knowledge is closer to human/sacred original primal source. That is why I ask that you dialog with intelligent interest, it is the only way a real exchange of information can proceed. I have travelled across the globe learning how other traditions interface with their communities. Most of the traditions are rare and difficult to find even for their own communities, purposefully. It still seems the best policy.
I know you have already read the threads, including where you were repeatedly caught lying. So playing dumb won't work.
Once again, have enough courtesy to answer the questions. You've made accusations three times now about "real" elders we've called frauds. Name them, for the third time.
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"If you say I am lying then please, I would like to know because it is not my intent nor my desire."
In your emails to me you emphasized that my even revealing there was such a tradition as you claim to be part of could result in the deaths of yourself or others.
Then Barnaby found you'd been talking aobut your alleged tradition in many forums.
"If you would have gotten to know me as I first requested then perhaps you would have known a great deal more about me before this."
I offered to meet with you. You declined.
"You have Archie Fire Lame Deer and Leonard Crow Dog and myself in your frauds section. I can't answer for Archie Fire or Leonard Crow Dog but we don't sell cerimonies. We don't sell seminars. We don't publicize the particulars of our cerimonies and practices whatsoever."
Actually the late Archie Lame Deer *did* sell ceremonies in Germany for the last several decades of his life. He did sell seminars. He did publicize how to do sweats and other rituals.
Normally we would not bring him up since he has passed on and there would be no point, as we've done with other exploiters who've passed on. But his son is now selling ceremonies to Germans, as are all the European exploiters he "franchised".
For Crow Dog, we were asked questions about him and we specifically said he is *not* a fraud. He does have some practices that many, esp other Lakota, have questioned the rightness of doing.
"I have found people with real knowledge to exchange with the head Rabbi of the Brestlove Hassidim in Safad, Israel. I spent time discussing our tradition with His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the Hindu mystic that brought the Krishna movement to the United States and translated the most read Bhagavad-Gita into English...I spent time exchanging traditional similarities with a Tibetan Shamanic traditionalist"
I have no idea what any of these have to do with any of the questions asked of you.
Outside of possibly the last I have no idea what these have to do with any indigenous traditions. While I agree very much with networking on similar issues, I've never cared much for the idea of trying to find similarities between very different traditions. It's too easily transformed into the pseudo shamanism ideas of people like Michael Harner, that it's OK to exploit any tribal tradition because somehow they're really all the same.
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he only way for you to understand is for us to have a private conversation about it. I have explained that discussing our cosmology is not considered an offense. Revealing our practices and cerimonies is an offense. I never discuss our practices and cerimonies to anyone outside of the tradition. What I have disclosed is diffuse and parts of the cosmology can be read by works of anthropological scholars who more often than not fail to understand the cosmology as we understand the cosmology. Our approach to the central Mesoamerican cosmology has unique features but I have spoken in features that have already been exposed in some way by Western or Colonial writers. I take great care in what I share. In three years of investigating I have found only one person that had any real knowledge that correlates to any mystical tradition that shares similar knowledge. People would be surprised to know what similarities exist in the highest teachings of mysticism in Pharonic Egypt, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism.
The differences in teaching methods is such in Western Scholasticism that I was discussing cosmology with a college professor of a particular expertise with the mound builder culture along the Mississippi. He also is Native American descent, Choctaw I believe.
In the burial practices of a certain mound culture they found people were buried along social organizations of directions. There were Northern, Western, Southern and Eastern organizations and people were buried according to their direction. He believed this was the result of a purely political organization. What he failed to understand was how the Mesoamerican calendar was used by most people to prognosticate their lives and fates religiously or spiritually. Direction is associated with each calendar day. This particular inference showed to me that the mound builder social organizations were never political only, every aspect of Native American life is based upon their spiritual beliefs in accordance with their cosmology. This was lost on the professor even though he was Native American.
Spiritual or religious states of being are the only normative states of being in Native American culture. The idea of secularism came to this continent with the European. Thereby the professor was incapable of instilling or imparting the true reality organization of that particular culture. The people under study were unnecessarily denuded of their humanity and their reality.
My mandate of providing a legal institution must allow discussions of our cosmology along with our ancient methods of reality organization to be established in a curriculum. There is enough cultural and ethnological information to be conveyed that a three year curriculum would still not necessarily disclose practices and cerimonies. What is key is successfully imparting the well kept reality orientation of our tradition. The reality orientation has always been the vehicle for further disclosure. No student in the past or present receives any knowledge unless the fertile ground of its continuance and growth are first fostered by proper reality organization. The elders are of the opinion that the vehicle of reality orientation will be present when we are successful instructors. This is where I need advice. I was taught in the old manner and I will be expected to teach in the new manner. This tradition has always been imparted to people that first viewed reality through our reality organization if they failed to view reality through the traditional reality organization they weren't asked to continue. It is in principle the only way the knowledge can be viewed.
My investigations with other Native American educators of anthropology has provided only a Western reality organization for their students at the end of their classes. We have to do better than that, we have to provide an exclusively Native American reality organization specific within the genre and context of the material of our tradition. This is elusive but not unheard of as it is till practiced in tribal traditions.
I watched PBS a week or so ago, they had a Masters Class for pianists under a Maestro. Even though I was unfamiliar with the Maestro, unfamiliar with the language of music, I could discern the ephemeral reality organization the Maestro was attempting to impart to his worthy student. He was attempting to impart something that had no linear counterpart between them and so he imparted his reality structure by reflections, metaphors and words that created shadows outlining something that they both could understand and see because they both spoke the same musical non-linear, verbal language. It was more art than musical science. The student's playing of the rarified score soon began to take on some of the heightened tonality and complexity of the Maestros playing of that rare music. The student began to take on the musical reality organization of the Maestro.
It is that boundary where the nonlinear, nonverbal meet the verbal boundary where our prescience and collective good will triumph over subjectivity to achieve a common ground and we can deliver metaphorically to the student that ability to play that rare music. In my studies abroad with the leaders of different powerful and arcane mystical traditions, it was this very question that I was asking. First I endeavored to see the depth of their knowledge in relation to ours and secondly how to they impart such ephemeral topics in a legal institution and how does it logically get disseminated. In many ways their knowledge used different languages, different metaphors, totally different iconography but the core cosmologies held much more in common and even complimented each other. This is not to say that they are interchangeable because they are not. One either studies one or the other but never both. One cannot fully explain any tradition but exclusively within its own integral original reality organization.
While attending lectures as a guest where 11 or 12 Rabbis were present learning from the head of the tradition, I correctly answered questions only because I had already addressed those spiritual issues in my own training in our tradition. I answered successfully on a specific issue but it did happen to be the correct answer. In the specific traditions investigated, food and behavior were modified to bring all participants into a collective consciousness. It was that collective consciousness that was a precursor to establishing a collective reality organization. They all participated in acknowledging the modern and they all accepted willingly the collective experience together that gave them their intellectual intimacy. It is the intellectual intimacy that allowed all of them to stay at the periphery or centered square in the spiritual reality that induced their collective leaps into their traditional knowledge.
The key of course is communication. I need clear communication, the tradition needs to be clear and the teacher translucent, it was the single greatest factor in favor of the successful transmission of other ancient traditions from one generation to the next. Although the student teacher relationship of the successful traditions I witnessed were more influenced by Middle Eastern or Asian teaching relationships rather than the English or European professorial austerity. If we can't find a middle ground so that our communication reflects our truths, intents and purposes then how can we be successful in interpreting each other's passion for service? I can't ask service of you if I am unwilling to be of service to you in return. So is their room for accommodation? I am still hoping for good communication knowing and expecting good will from each other. That is a basis for further communication and a good start.
"If you say I am lying then please, I would like to know because it is not my intent nor my desire."
In your emails to me you emphasized that my even revealing there was such a tradition as you claim to be part of could result in the deaths of yourself or others.
Then Barnaby found you'd been talking aobut your alleged tradition in many forums.
"If you would have gotten to know me as I first requested then perhaps you would have known a great deal more about me before this."
I offered to meet with you. You declined.
"You have Archie Fire Lame Deer and Leonard Crow Dog and myself in your frauds section. I can't answer for Archie Fire or Leonard Crow Dog but we don't sell cerimonies. We don't sell seminars. We don't publicize the particulars of our cerimonies and practices whatsoever."
Actually the late Archie Lame Deer *did* sell ceremonies in Germany for the last several decades of his life. He did sell seminars. He did publicize how to do sweats and other rituals.
Normally we would not bring him up since he has passed on and there would be no point, as we've done with other exploiters who've passed on. But his son is now selling ceremonies to Germans, as are all the European exploiters he "franchised".
For Crow Dog, we were asked questions about him and we specifically said he is *not* a fraud. He does have some practices that many, esp other Lakota, have questioned the rightness of doing.
"I have found people with real knowledge to exchange with the head Rabbi of the Brestlove Hassidim in Safad, Israel. I spent time discussing our tradition with His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the Hindu mystic that brought the Krishna movement to the United States and translated the most read Bhagavad-Gita into English...I spent time exchanging traditional similarities with a Tibetan Shamanic traditionalist"
I have no idea what any of these have to do with any of the questions asked of you.
Outside of possibly the last I have no idea what these have to do with any indigenous traditions. While I agree very much with networking on similar issues, I've never cared much for the idea of trying to find similarities between very different traditions. It's too easily transformed into the pseudo shamanism ideas of people like Michael Harner, that it's OK to exploit any tribal tradition because somehow they're really all the same.
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« Reply #34 nahualqo
If you say I am lying then please, I would like to know because it is not my intent nor my desire.
There doesn' seem to be any point in listing all the contractions as there are so many , and they are so obvious , no one needs to have them pointed out except Nahualqo , who seems determined to get some sort of award for just ignoring us when we do .
Below is a link showing more of nahualqo's verbal abuse and it is obviouse he has no commitment to any of the principals he went on and on about earlier in this thread .
THE TWILIGHT ZONE
- A forum to discuss topics related to the work of Carlos Castaneda -
http://www.percivale.co.uk/castacontin/viewtopic.php?t=726&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid
=f6eb24efad1ca08b1702ce92167adec7 (http://www.percivale.co.uk/castacontin/viewtopic.php?t=726&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid
=f6eb24efad1ca08b1702ce92167adec7)
The questions in this thread asking nahualqo about his authorization , were consistantly polite and reasonable , and nahualqo's responses were consistently evasiave , and abusive . He claims to be a Spiritual leader , but his own behavior shows otherwise . No amount of long winded self promotion will change that .