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Ayahuasca

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Laurel:

--- Quote from: A.H. on May 15, 2008, 01:01:56 pm ---[...] I can contemplate the eternal questions without getting depressed every night and falling into the state of lack of meaning and will to live, now.... I can now recognize the pattern of thoughts that previously pushed me into extremely nihilist state of mind, but now it just stops at the rational level and those negative emotions don't occur.

--- End quote ---

A.H.,

Mindfulness meditation has similar benefits for me, and I don't piss off any traditional, Eastern Buddhists when I do it outside its original context.

Of course it's not as easy as downing a drug, and I have to do it every day forever.

You support Creative Commons; some musicians don't.  You don't get to use their music without doing something unethical.  You support ayahuasca out of cultural context; its original users don't.  You don't get to use their stuff without doing something unethical.  You certainly can't expect to say "Oh well, ayahuasca's available, cat's out of the bag, and anyway my trip said anything I do is natural and OK" and expect people not to get miffed about that.

And for crying out loud, your original post focused on you personally. 

A.H.:
Laurel - my original post was not meant to be about me, but I wanted to express that it really works beneficially, that it can help also non-natives... It is not a simple "drug" it really is a medicine... It did something to the chemical balance or something of my brains so I got rid of those depressive emotions that came despite or maybe exactly because of all intellectual efforts to understand "why am I here?"...

I read about it everything I could from many pro&con sites...

The Umiyac statement, that is one of the rare organized petitions form the South American Natives - concerning the exploatations of yage/ayahuasca and especially the negative effect of occurance of many charlatans, some even their own people also acknowledges that this medicine is beneficial for the mankind. They demand regulations and respect to which I only say YES!, but they don't say superstitious stuff like - this is our medicine, only we can use it - it is not your medicine, you cannot benefit from it... They don't say that.  They would like to make a clear distinction between valid healers and charlatans and when in contact with parmaceutical industry, botanists, etc. they want to be acknowledged as authors of this and to also acknowledge their knowledge. As I am informed the progress is done here slowly - the west doesn't only come and steal patents (anymore) - at least there are conferences and debates about that. I hope also the practical results.

What I am saying - they are practical, they see the value and why it is interesting to the rest of the world, but they want the medicine to be presented properly and so they are also not left out of its spreading in the world.

Those words don't contradict anything I feel and think about the more universal use of this medicine (my emphasis in bold):

"We demand respect for our territories, our indigenous medicine and our traditional healers or Taitas. We ask the world to acknowledge that our medicine is also a science, although not in the same way Westerners understand it. We, the Taitas, are real healers and for many centuries we have effectively contributed to the health of our villages. Furthermore, our medicine looks beyond the physical and seeks the wellbeing of the mind, the heart and the spirit.
We demand the immediate suspension of the patent Loren Miller was awarded in the United States. For us, the patent represents an abuse and a defilement of our sacred plant. We declare that yagé and other medicinal plants we use are the patrimony and collective property of the indigenous people. It’s use in the name of mankind must be carried out with our participation and we should enjoy any other benefits that derive from its exploitation.
We ask for legal recognition of our autonomy in caring for the health of our peoples in accordance with our traditions and values.
We must regain possession of our territories and sacred sites. The forest is for us the fountain of our resources. If the forests disappear so will medicine and life.
We request support for our cause. Non-indigenous people can help us consolidate our unity and the defense of our traditional medicine, as it has been proven that they also benefit from the wisdom of the Taitas.
At the end of the Gathering, we agreed to work toward the unity and defense of our traditional medicine and offer our services for the health of indigenous people and of humanity.
The Taitas agree to initiate a process of certification of practicing healers and establish our own code of indigenous medical ethics. In this way it will be able to distinguish between real Taitas and charlatans. We are also willing to travel in order to bring the benefits of our medicine to indigenous communities in Colombia and other parts of America upon request. Conscious of the fact that non-Indians also need our services as doctors, we propose the construction of Indigenous Medicine Clinics so they may have easier access and in conditions better suited to the way in which we work, always closely linked to nature. The Taitas present at the Gathering have decided to formally create the Union of Traditional Yagé Healers of the Colombian Amazon (UMIYAC) and name our own representatives to carry out the various tasks to which we are committed and to represent us before the world, governments and other institutions. "

I respect this medicine. It helped me. I hope I can finish here.

Barnaby_McEwan:
I hope so too. You remind me of Sigmund Freud raving about the amazing new cure-all - cocaine:


--- Quote ---In my last serious depression I took cocaine again and a small dose lifted me to the heights in a wonderful fashion. I am just now collecting the literature for a song of praise to this magical substance.
--- End quote ---

http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/cocaine/

Laurel:
The statement you reproduce is at least ninety per cent about how the yage must remain in its indigenous cultural context.  They say:  "We request support for our cause. Non-indigenous people can help us consolidate our unity and the defense of our traditional medicine..."

but you said:  "We are 'plastic' civilization, so I think it is appropriate for us to use 'plastic' medicine with the right knowledge if we continue to live in a 'plastic' way." [i.e., I have a perfect right to take this traditional, indigenous medicine out of its traditional, indigenous context.]
   
They say:  "...we propose the construction of Indigenous Medicine Clinics so they may have easier access and in conditions better suited to the way in which we work, always closely linked to nature."

but you said:  "'Return to nature' and going back to any 'old ways' seems like utopia (and meaningless) at the moment..."

They say, Get your patent off OUR MEDICINE.  The phrase "our medicine" appears in the statement seven times, sometimes with the qualifier "traditional" or "indigenous"--you know, the silly baggage you say you don't need to take yage.

but you said: "they don't say superstitious stuff like - this is our medicine."

Nobody can stop you from doing what you want to do and calling it spiritual growth or whatever.  But don't pretend you have permission and blessing of Native peoples to take their medicine out of context when your "defense" is a statement that says over and over again that you do not.

A.H.:
I seem to be over enthusiastic in my writing about ayahuasca, you're right Barnaby. But I don't think it is a magical cure for everything, but it surely is beneficial also to non-indigenous, "atheistic" or at least non-religious persons and that's not from just my experience. Also the abuse possibilities are limited due to its rather unpleasat physical effects.

And like I said, you can dismiss my voice and persona, but this medicine is beneficial anyway and you cannot just throw it in the "drug" section and compare it with cocaine...

Laurel you seem to misinterpret a few things I wrote.

Anyway - as someone around here in another post said "the only ones who are not controversial are the ones who do nothing"...

My sugggestion of the future use of synthesized medicine seems appropriate so it doesn't cause too big ecological problem if it gets used more universally for the whole planet of people... They also claim: "We declare that yagé and other medicinal plants we use are the patrimony and collective property of the indigenous people. It’s use in the name of mankind must be carried out with our participation and we should enjoy any other benefits that derive from its exploitation."
So I see no contradiction if the "West" studies this medicine with the help of those cultures who know it already and if they finally synthesize it for the broader use and give part of profit and the credits to the native people and there are thousands of possibilities how to use that money and public attention for protecting the forest, their societies, etc.

And I clearly said they don't talk about "our medicine" as something only they can use or are able to benefit from (like it would be culture specific in its effects). You cannot only extract a short part of my sentence and theirs and construct opposing ideas where there are not any... I quite cleary explained the difference of saying "this is our medicine, only we can use it" or saying this is our medicine, we want acknowledgement and respectful use and being part of any furhter more universal exploitation (in a "neutral" meaning of the word as they used it in the declaration).

I talked about the utopian way for the urban "westerners" to try to mimick the "old ways and return to nature". We should rather explore what is this technical civilization about, why did it occur and we can incorporate new technologies that are based on the strict and unbiased research of old wisdom/science. And not recreating old rituals (even our own "pagan") and other more "religious" aspects of culture. As I understand those healers are very practical in their understanding of the possible use of their knowledge and plants and the possible collaboration with the rest of the world.

The part of misunderstanding comes also from that you understand the use of this medicine as something "religious" or "spiritual" in a religious way that is logically more bound to the specific culture, while even in their understanding it is more "science" but not in a way the West understands it. The science that produces the medicine that "looks beyond the physical and seeks the wellbeing of the mind, the heart and the spirit" as they say.
They know how to use it. They must work close to nature as this is their modus operandi, but they are willing to teach it to the rest of the world and if they get credit and benefit, I am sure, from what I read in that statement, they wouldn't object if it is used properly in its synthetic form in the urban surroundings in a controlled and proper manner and even with their direct participation if they choose so.
Well any further discussion should surely be made with them, not just throwing our opinions what they think upon reading that declaration. We can draw some conclusions, but certainly we should ask them for further details and debate. There are actions in this direction already.

Just being appalled by its ever rising "popularity" in the "West" and not understanding why it happens doesn't help any cause.  I think those suggested regulations and joint research in its more universal use are a good thing to do.

And finally - I really wanted to post only about the possibilities and the existing benefit of the use of this medicine outside indigenous world of its origin.
But if you can't stop dismissing me personally - I am guilty, I expect no pardon and I am claiming no blessing from anyone for my personal undertaking. I am not politically nor morally correct. I may even be a selfish bastard if you will. I am nobody.

BUT - this medicine is good and can/should be used fairly "world-wide"...

 

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