NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: debbieredbear on April 05, 2011, 08:32:31 pm

Title: Andrew Soliz
Post by: debbieredbear on April 05, 2011, 08:32:31 pm
He is supposed to be Pueblo/Mayan, "adopted Lakota" and a "ceremonial leader" as well as a Pipecarrier and sundancer. Anyone know of him? He is doing sweats and stuff and has web pages.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: ValSu on April 06, 2011, 12:47:58 am
Asking for money!  >:(

Here is where he asked for money..in part on this website I just found:

Sacred Ways in St Croix:
February 8th- 22nd 2009

Spending time with Ceremonial Leader Andrew Soliz could very well alter the way you look at the sun, the stars, and the canvas that is your life. Tatankamani (Walking Buffalo), a Pipe Carrier, Sun Dancer, and Healer, carries the traditional teachings of Native American people with wisdom, compassion and concern for the tiospaye that is his human family.

By listening deeply and with compassion, Andrew guides people to bring forth their own unique healing powers. He holds sacred space with his gentle strength and integrity providing an opportunity for healing and to celebrate the spirit in each of us.

Sessions are one hour long. The exchange is on a sliding scale of $100.00-$150.00. Space is limited so please call to book a time that works for you.

Website here:
http://www.sacred-ways.org/
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: ValSu on April 06, 2011, 12:50:35 am
http://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewsoliz

this is another of their contact pages. In part it says:

Quote
"Andrew Soliz's Experience

Founder / President
Sacred Ways
Nonprofit; 1-10 employees; Alternative Medicine industry
March 2003 – Present (8 years 2 months)

Sacred Ways is dedicated to promoting growth and healing thru traditional Native American teachings and ceremonies."

Here is a Facebook with same name. Is this same person you are asking about?
http://www.facebook.com/andrew.soliz
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: ValSu on April 06, 2011, 12:53:01 am
Is this a story of the same guy by chance?

Soliz guilty of manslaughter in Morton woman's hit-and-run death
Published: Thursday, February 11, 2010
http://lubbockonline.com/stories/021110/loc_561379672.shtml
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: ValSu on April 06, 2011, 01:01:41 am
Here are more links with same name although not sure if same person you are asking about since I never heard of him.

http://discoverthegift.com/our-speakers/cherif-aziz/

Andrew Soliz - Sacred Ways, Native American Teachings
http://www.sbwellnessdirectory.com/sacred-ways.htm

Another site, http://www.wildcoyote.biz/events.html
which has some event described, in part:

Quote
"We are please to finally bring our dream to reality by beginning our Native American programs. We just completed building our first sweat lodge in late Sep. 08, followed by its blessing and a private sweat lodge ceremony with some close friends. Our goal is to promote growth and healing through traditional Native American teachings and ceremonies. Offering alternative education to youth, adults and families, by exploring human nature to develop a strong positive self-image.

Sacred Ways…
Our ceremony’s master will be Andrew Soliz who has been performing sweat lodge ceremonies for people from all over the world.
He often travels and attends different tribal pow-wows, and has been blessed by many tribal chiefs for his gift and dedication to his work.
Sacred Ways brings together teachers, leaders and other like-minded individuals to share wisdom and promote racial harmony in a safe, nurturing environment founded on integrity.
The circle is strong and full of medicine. Sacred Ways is based on integrity and upholding the traditional ways."


This is all the time I have for now. Maybe others will have heard of this individual and have more to share in regards to information.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on April 06, 2011, 01:12:49 pm
Is this a story of the same guy by chance?

Soliz guilty of manslaughter in Morton woman's hit-and-run death
Published: Thursday, February 11, 2010
http://lubbockonline.com/stories/021110/loc_561379672.shtml

Lubbock is in north Texas, quite some distance from the LA area where he's based. Very likely just two people with the same name.

All the other links listed seem to be him. He repeatedly says he is Latino and "of Native American descent." No tribe is ever named and no sign he even knows what tribe he may be descended from. I didn't see Pueblo or Mayan listed. Someone who actually was likely would be more specific, eg Laguna Pueblo, Quiche Maya, etc.

But what's really infuriating is that NPR interviewed him and described him as a medicine man among the Lakota. I don't see any sign of Soliz ever mentioning who he alleges trained him.

He does go to Virgin Islands pretty regularly on youth outreach programs, so it's a bit of a mixed picture. VI is one of the most crime ridden parts of the US.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Superdog on April 06, 2011, 04:17:41 pm
Oh wow....this guy.

He's got another site teamed with a woman named Carrie Woodburn.  I'm just speculating, but she may be his girlfriend...no real evidence to back that up....just a hunch. 

It's called Alchemy of the Heart

http://www.alchemyoftheheart.net/index.html

On it you'll find links to products and services being sold.  Some of them directly linked to Andrew and definitely outrageous in their audaciousness as well as the price.  Here's some examples:

Medicine bags and a "session" with Andrew.  Prices range from $1200-$1800
http://www.alchemyoftheheart.net/alchemy_of_the_heart_medicine_bags.html

Limited Edition Buffalo Elk Bags ($385-$598) and a generic "Medicine Bag" $65
http://www.alchemyoftheheart.net/alchemy_of_the_heart_products_medicine_bags.html

As a side note.  The skill required to make these bags is something we teach 2nd graders who turn out bags of similar quality to those displayed.  The pictures show factory tanned leather leaving behind any notion that he cures the hides himself.

Advertised sweat lodges.   There is no fee listed, however a request for donations does follow.
http://www.alchemyoftheheart.net/sweat_lodge.html

As well as a series of retreats at high class resorts (with high class fees) that offer "Native American Ceremony" as one of the things you'll experience.
http://www.alchemyoftheheart.net/alchemy_of_the_heart_retreats_bali.html


The site also says he has childrens books coming out in the fall of this year (2011) as well as being "featured" in a documentary called "Discover the Gift". 
http://discoverthegift.com/our-speakers/andrew-soliz/
"A ceremonialist who serves through traditional Native American ceremonies, including spirit callings, sweat lodges, and more, Andrew Soliz is also the founder and president of the non-profit organization, Sacred Ways that works with youth, adults, families, and at-risk populations, to promote growth and healing through these teachings and rituals. He is Pipe Carrier of the Lakota Nation. (Where's the face palm pic?)

Here's the youtube channel for the site (I haven't watched the videos yet, can't comment on the content, but from the pictures these mostly seem to involve Carrie)
http://www.youtube.com/thealchemyoftheheart

My impression....a high paid self help guru (once again) using Native American spirituality as a selling point.  Fortunately, his prices range so high his following seems rather miniscule and he markets himself internally in the corporate self-help business model (i.e. James Ray).  But still, the lack of detail in any of his information leads me to believe that he probably doesn't have a leg to stand on as far as his "Native credentials" go.  If you have nothing to hide...you don't hide anything.

Superdog
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Superdog on April 06, 2011, 08:09:50 pm
Just a follow up.  I read on one of the pages that he Sundances every year in South Dakota and has for the past 7 years.  No names of whose Sundance it is or what reservation, but it explains all the Lakota adoption credentials he keeps putting out there.  But I defer to earthw's post about adoption rites and from that info would say he's representing Lakota spirituality and selling it with no right to really do so. 

But if he does go every year....chances are he's known somewhere in Lakota territory so it would be interesting to see what those folks would say about him.

Superdog
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on June 12, 2011, 05:33:24 pm
Soliz and Woodburn both emailed me. Woodburn insisted he's well known and respected, but also used some goofy Nuage defenses. Soliz was more forthcoming with some information, but there's quite a few contradictions. I asked him to follow up but haven't heard back since.

In order, emails are from Woodburn, Soliz, and my response.

------------

Hello,

I see you have some speculation on your site about Andrew Soliz – might I suggest you contact him directly to inquire about his lineage and discern out of “experience” his authenticity vs. posting speculative theory on your site.  He is a seven year Sundancer in South Dakota, well known by many on the pine ridge reservation, including the medicine men.  I find it ironic the stand you seemingly take for outing “fraud” yet with no basis from experience vs. theory.  Hmm…..

Carrie Woodburn

------------

To whomever this concerns,

I am Andrew Soliz and I was recently shown your web site. I am shocked, disappointed and upset at your claims and comments. In principal your website could help many people who are victims of fraudulent people who misrepresent themselves and prey on peoples vulnerability. However you really need to do your research before you post claims against people.

I am presenting myself to you here and now to ask any questions you have about my background, integrity and how I came to be allowed to run ceremony and do the work I do.
I am a mix blood. On my fathers side I am Mayan and mexican. On my mothers side I am Acoma Pueblo and spanish. Five years ago I was adopted by Darlene Cross. Her husband was Vernal Cross, a very well respected Medicine Man from Kyle South Dakota. Their son and my brother is Michael Cross, a very well respected Medicine Man in his own right who has been recognized by the tribe. Everything I do is with their permission. My cousin Thomas Alvarez is a member of AIM.

I do not charge for ceremony and never have. When I am involved with retreats there are costs involved with food and lodging that must be covered. There is never a charge for ceremony and we have always been clear about that. I have never claimed to be a Medicine Man or Shaman and i never will. Furthermore your claims that traditional's don't use websites is not true. David Swallow, Nathan Chasing Horse, Orville Looking Horse, Leonard Crow Dog and others all have web sites. You yourself have a web site.

Who are you to be question anyone? For many years I volunteered my time in San Quentin prison, youth camps and local jails. I have created programs in youth detention centers in the Virgin Islands and countless other wonderful causes. I don't go around touting this because I do it from my heart. The traditional ways of our people can and do help all of mankind and should be shared. You don't know me and your careless speculations are unfounded. I invite you to come and do ceremony or sit and pray with me. Look into my eyes and heart and see who I am.

I encourage you to spend your time in more productive ways. Native people don't need to be attacking each other. We have been oppressed long enough by others. Feel free to contact me to get your facts straight. I have nothing to hide.

Peace,

Andrew Soliz

-----------


Mr. Soliz,
 
Responses are within the email to make it clearer what is being responded to. See comments marked >>>.

--- On Fri, 5/13/11, Andrew Soliz wrote:

To whomever this concerns,

I am Andrew Soliz and I was recently shown your web site. I am shocked, disappointed and upset at your claims and comments. In principal your website could help many people who are victims of fraudulent people who misrepresent themselves and prey on peoples vulnerability. However you really need to do your research before you post claims against people.
 
>>>All our research comes directly from what your own sites posted online.

I am presenting myself to you here and now to ask any questions you have about my background, integrity and how I came to be allowed to run ceremony and do the work I do.
I am a mix blood. On my fathers side I am Mayan and mexican. On my mothers side I am Acoma Pueblo and spanish.
 
>>>Which Mayan people? There are nearly two dozen separate Mayan peoples and cultures. It is our experience that "Mayan" is most often said by Mexicans with a vague understanding of their Indian heritage.
 
>>>Why is someone of Mayan and Pueblo ancestry doing what purports to be Lakota ceremony? Why not Mayan or Pueblo traditions? Are Acoma Pueblo elders aware of what you do?
 
 Five years ago I was adopted by Darlene Cross. Her husband was Vernal Cross, a very well respected Medicine Man from Kyle South Dakota.
 
>>>Vernal Cross's family has in fact issued a public statement that Vernal did NOT authorize anyone to teach, esp not in his name, and that anyone doing so is fraudulent. There are six specific individuals they name as frauds using his name. You are not among them.
 
>>>However, the statement comes directly from Darlene Cross herself: How do you explain this?
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=380.msg1723#msg1723
 
Their son and my brother is Michael Cross, a very well respected Medicine Man in his own right who has been recognized by the tribe. Everything I do is with their permission. My cousin Thomas Alvarez is a member of AIM.

I do not charge for ceremony and never have. When I am involved with retreats there are costs involved with food and lodging that must be covered. There is never a charge for ceremony and we have always been clear about that.
 
>>>Your own website repeatedly lists prices for ceremony. It lists you charging up to 1800 dollars a session. This includes "ceremony" at expensive tourist resorts in both Bali and the Caribbean.
 
I have never claimed to be a Medicine Man or Shaman and i never will. Furthermore your claims that traditional's don't use websites is not true. David Swallow, Nathan Chasing Horse, Orville Looking Horse, Leonard Crow Dog and others all have web sites. You yourself have a web site.
 
>>>We have never made that claim. We state truthfully that no medicine people would put up a website to sell ceremony as you have done.

Who are you to be question anyone?
 
>>>Who we are is all over our website, if you'd bothered to look.
 
 For many years I volunteered my time in San Quentin prison, youth camps and local jails. I have created programs in youth detention centers in the Virgin Islands and countless other wonderful causes. I don't go around touting this because I do it from my heart.
 
>>>Again, if you had bothered to actually look, you'd see we also point to some good you have done and describe you as a "mixed picture," someone who is doing wrong but also doing right sometimes.
 
The traditional ways of our people can and do help all of mankind and should be shared.
 
>>>Nearly all Natives disagree with you. "Sharing" Native traditions makes little sense stripped of their tribal context, dilutes, them, distorts them, and harms them.
 
You don't know me and your careless speculations are unfounded. I invite you to come and do ceremony or sit and pray with me. Look into my eyes and heart and see who I am.

I encourage you to spend your time in more productive ways.
 
>>>There is nothing more productive than protecting sacred traditions from harm, and people, both Native and non-Native, from pay to pray ceremony.
 
Native people don't need to be attacking each other. We have been oppressed long enough by others. Feel free to contact me to get your facts straight. I have nothing to hide.

Peace,

Andrew Soliz
 
>>>You are welcome as well to come to the forum and state your position. Or if you wish we can post your statement here. We always welcome all further information to get at the truth of these matters.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 08, 2011, 12:51:20 am
I know Andrew Soliz. He has sacrificed himself to help a lot of people.  He is a pipe carrier and has been a sundancer on the Cross ranch in Kyle, South Dakota, Pine Ridge reservation.  I know because I was there.  Regardless of Andrew's credentials/anscestory, etc., he helps all beings.  He facilitates healing and loves his Lakota brothers and sisters.  Mitakuye Oyasin.

“Then I was standing on the highest mountain of them all, and round about beneath me was the whole hoop of the world. And while I stood there I saw more then I can tell and I understood more than I saw; for I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit, and the shape of all shapes as they must live together like one being. And I saw the sacred hoop of my people was one of many hoops that made one circle, wide as daylight and as starlight, and in the center grew one mighty flowering tree to shelter all the children of one mother and one mother and one father, and I saw that it was holy.” (Black Elk Speaks, as told to John G. Neihardt, University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln, 1961.)
 
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on July 08, 2011, 05:30:18 pm
Hello Mr. Ciferri, and welcome.

As you can see by looking above in this thread, we've long noted that Mr. Soliz is a mixed picture, does some good but also does things that are harmful and wrong.

You could perhaps help by trying to clear up some of the difficult questions about him. We asked him why he claims Vernal Cross authorized him to do ceremonies and says he is adopted into the Cross family when the Cross family, including the widow Darlene Cross, specifically say Vernal Cross did not authorize anyone to carry on in his name.

Mr. Soliz never answered. Perhaps you would have more luck asking than we have.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 08, 2011, 08:35:41 pm
Dear educatedindian:

First, thank you for welcoming me.  May my words here only lead to peace, understanding and harmony. 

I wrote a long thoughtful response to your post.  When I hit the post button, I got the message that my session was timed out and I lost everthing I wrote. 

Perhaps the spirits have indicated that it's best I should just shut up.  Anything you may hear from me is just a second hand account from your perspective in any event.

I have only this to add: 

From my perspective, what initially seems like harm often later turns into miraculous healing.  In my humble opinion, the spirits work from their own timetable. 

Also, I am grateful you have taken time and deliberation in considering the works of Andrew Soliz.  I continue to have a positive opinion of Andrew Soliz and those of his Lakota brothers and sisters with whom he associates. 

With humility, gratitude and respect,

Rod Ciferri
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on July 09, 2011, 02:03:29 pm
I can't help but notice that basically your answer is no answer at all, avoiding the question. Cliches about "hate" that have nothing to do with Soliz are not an answer.

All I asked was if you could ask Soliz about what Darlene Cross says. And any answer from you would be a firsthand account.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Johnnie on July 09, 2011, 03:40:57 pm
I lived in the Santa Barbara area for many years and got to know a lot of the people there, including those who go in and out of the Ojai area, a hotbed of New Age style traditions.  As Ed. Indian points out, the source of our spirituality is tribal ways and one has to wonder what it is exactly Mr. Soliz is teaching in his retreats and other workshops.  Truth is there is a market for tribal ways and there are those who will pay dearly for the privilege of participation.  However, is it Maya?  Lakota?  And if it is Lakota that Mr. Soliz is selling then how is it with all the problems among the Lakota you are not there doing your "healing?"  Unemployment, substance abuse, PTSD, could all be addressed by working with the Lakota people on these issues.  In short, who needs the "ceremonies" you conduct?  White folks willing to pay through the nose?  Or Indian people who are the source of these alleged "ways" you teach?  I read the materials on your website and while there is no overt "pay to pray" pitch, it is clear that money is exchanged.  You are making a living doing these ceremonies.  While I believe it is within the bounds of common decency to financially support spiritual leaders, it should be those who are ministering to their own people.  My question always is; if you believe you are versed well enough in these tribal ways, why are you not among your own people?  In the case of Mr. Soliz, his own people, whomever he might claim them to be, are nowhere near Ojai.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Defend the Sacred on July 09, 2011, 03:52:05 pm
From my perspective, what initially seems like harm often later turns into miraculous healing.

Could you explain what you mean by this?
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 09, 2011, 04:17:03 pm
Dear educatedindian:

It is only you who speak of "hate", as our posts between eachother will reveal.  Also, the answer to the question you seek is in this thread already. 

<<We asked him why he claims Vernal Cross authorized him to do sundances>>

No, you neither asked him why he claims Vernal authorized him to do sundances, nor did you prove he ever made such a claim.  I'm not aware that Andrew leads sundances at all, much less sundances authorized by Vernal. 

In that regard you never asked him a question, rather, you asked him to explain the statement of Darlene Cross contained in the link you posted. 

Given that you give no proof of him making the claim that "Vernal authorized him to do sundances", I'm not sure what anyone would explain about the statement in the link you posted - it speaks for itself - and what it says is "No part of  Vernal's hochoka was passed on.  All of his hochoka remains with the family and when he passed away he took his power with him.  Anyone who claims otherwise is subject to arrest and imprisonment under federal law". 

Please direct me to Andrew's statement that he claims Vernal's hochoka. 

Andrew has told you himself that he has permission to do what he does and he refers to Darlene and Michael Cross as giving him that permission. 

Andrew has told you himself:  "Michael Cross is a very well respected Medicine Man in his own right..."

So, where do you get from any of this that Andrew has claimed Vernal Cross authorized him to do sundances?

I won't even bother Andrew to try to get him to "explain" the statement of Darlene Cross.  It's clear to me that it speaks for itself.  But, if you need some further explanation of it, perhaps you should ask the person who made the statement in the first place.

Mitakuye Oyasin.

Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 09, 2011, 04:27:11 pm
Dear Kathryn:

From my perspective, pain is part and parcel with healing.  It's easier to understand from an allopathic perspective.  It hurts to have cancer surgically removed from the body, but, later it feels good to be healed.  I believe it's the same thing in spiritual healing.  It's painful changing something that's been ingrained for a while, but after the changes have been made it feels better than before.  I hope that helps.

Mitakuye Oyasin.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 09, 2011, 04:29:24 pm
Dear Johnnie:

Mitakuye Oyasin.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on July 12, 2011, 08:04:44 pm
Dear educatedindian:

It is only you who speak of "hate", as our posts between eachother will reveal.  Also, the answer to the question you seek is in this thread already.  

<<We asked him why he claims Vernal Cross authorized him to do ceremonies>>

No, you neither asked him why he claims Vernal authorized him to do sundances, nor did you prove he ever made such a claim.  I'm not aware that Andrew leads sundances at all, much less sundances authorized by Vernal.  

In that regard you never asked him a question, rather, you asked him to explain the statement of Darlene Cross contained in the link you posted.  

Given that you give no proof of him making the claim that "Vernal authorized him to do sundances", I'm not sure what anyone would explain about the statement in the link you posted - it speaks for itself - and what it says is "No part of  Vernal's hochoka was passed on.  All of his hochoka remains with the family and when he passed away he took his power with him.  Anyone who claims otherwise is subject to arrest and imprisonment under federal law".  

Please direct me to Andrew's statement that he claims Vernal's hochoka.  

Andrew has told you himself that he has permission to do what he does and he refers to Darlene and Michael Cross as giving him that permission.  

Andrew has told you himself:  "Michael Cross is a very well respected Medicine Man in his own right..."

So, where do you get from any of this that Andrew has claimed Vernal Cross authorized him to do sundances?

I won't even bother Andrew to try to get him to "explain" the statement of Darlene Cross.  It's clear to me that it speaks for itself.  But, if you need some further explanation of it, perhaps you should ask the person who made the statement in the first place.

Mitakuye Oyasin.


I suspect, in part because of your empty and repeated inappropriate use of a Lakota phrase you don't understand, there's little hope of getting through to you, but I'll try.

Pretty much everybody here can see you're full of anger and hate, close to downright rage, that anyone even dared question Mr. Soliz. And you project your emotions upon others.

That seems to be the reaction from Soliz's followers, first from his partner, who sounded somewhat like a child, telling me roughly "Um, you guys are gonna get it now."

And now from you. I pointed out there are some things unclear, and that you could help out Soliz by making them clear. Your reaction is to refuse to answer and then defend him with fluffy phrases.

Far from helping Soliz, you've hurt him. Just to be clear, no one ever mentioned Sundances, not me nor other nafps members. (We said "ceremonies" the same ones he advertises and sells online.) You were the first to do so, and now it only leads others to wonder if in fact Soliz is now abusing that ceremony as well.

Again, Soliz is not Lakota, nor of any other tribe that ever did the Sundance. Mayans and Pueblos never did.

He claims to be adopted, but the Lakota at nafps and elsewhere have said time and again being adopted does NOT give one the "right" to do Lakota ceremony.

Not only that, Darlene Cross had clearly and publicly stated Vernal never authorizd anyone. Soliz refuses to answer on that question, and now so do you. Instead you go on a strange tangent where you invent things I never said, and misread again and again what Soliz said in his own statement.

That's a shame. As I said before, you could have helped him but have instead hurt him and made him and his followers seem like they have something to hide.

I also find it interesting (but not surprising) you didn't even know Soliz claimed Vernal authorized him. So apparently someone only needs to claim to do Native ceremony and that's Ok by you.

Again, not surprising. I see online you speak of your belief in lightworkers and channeling. So that certainly undermines any claim of Soliz as a traditionalist. Again, this is just one more way you've hurt the cause of the man you came here to help.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 14, 2011, 05:21:41 pm
Dear educatedindian:

I see you take issue with my use of the word "hochoka".  Your concerns are well taken.  I believe I interpreted hochoka in too narrow a sense, i.e., as referring to the sacred circle formed by the arbor at sundance.  Since I interpreted it that way, I thought Darlene was referring to the inheritance of Vernal's power to do sundance in the way he had developed it as a medicine man.  When you asked for Andrew to explain Darlene's statement, I thought you were accusing him of leading sundances.  I realize my understanding was based on a mistaken narrow interpretation of the word, and I apologize for any misunderstanding I have caused because of it.

Mitakuye Oyasin.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on July 15, 2011, 02:12:26 pm
Could you at least understand the "M-O" phrase Lakotas use, and not keep misusing it? They don't use it like "Hello" or "Have nice day". They don't even say it like Christians say "God bless you." It's used at certain times and places of ceremony, and not as casually as you misuse it.

Again, you seem to be dodging the question. Soliz is not Lakota and has no right to Lakota ceremony, and Vernal Cross never authorized him to do any ceremony or carry on in his name, as Soliz falsely claims. Darlene Cross stated no one was given the right by Vernal.

Why not just talk to Soliz and ask him to clear up what Darlene Cross has publicly stated, and the ceremony selling he does on his website?
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: snorks on July 15, 2011, 02:52:40 pm
Could someone explain to me the following:

From my reading, the poster is saying that there is some sort of current that is received when standing in the sacred circle.  This current is like what Reiki practitioners receive to practise their Reiki.  Therefore the current can be passed on to others.  Is my reading wrong?  If so, I apologise.
-----------------
Dear educatedindian:

I see you take issue with my use of the word "hochoka".  Your concerns are well taken.  I believe I interpreted hochoka in too narrow a sense, i.e., as referring to the sacred circle formed by the arbor at sundance.  Since I interpreted it that way, I thought Darlene was referring to the inheritance of Vernal's power to do sundance in the way he had developed it as a medicine man.  When you asked for Andrew to explain Darlene's statement, I thought you were accusing him of leading sundances.  I realize my understanding was based on a mistaken narrow interpretation of the word, and I apologize for any misunderstanding I have caused because of it.


Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 16, 2011, 08:22:46 pm
Dear educatedindian:

I understand the Lakota "M-O" phrase, as you call it, to mean "we are all related" in English, and I use it assuming it means that.  I am certainly not using it to say "Hello" or "Have a nice day" or "God bless you".  I am using it knowing it is perhaps the most profound statement of fact ever made in human history. 

Perhaps you could explain what makes you jump to the conclusion that I am using it "casually". 

You appear to speak from great authority when you criticize me, for the use of a word, or the way I use a word, yet you say precious little in educating me about it.  I am puzzled why you don't clearly explain the meaning of the words I use and the correct context in which I use them, instead you jump to conclusions:

<<I suspect, in part because of your empty and repeated inappropriate use of a Lakota phrase you don't understand, there's little hope of getting through to you>>

Rather, it would be more respectful, make more sense logically and serve to educate others if you explained which words I'm using inappropriately and in an empty way and how I am doing so, so that I can correct my alleged misunderstanding. 

To be fair, you did explain a little bit to me, such as saying "M-O" is used only in ceremony, and not casually.  You've gotten through to me on that point, I can assure you.  In order to not further - unwittingly – antagonize you, I will no longer use it here. 

However, if it is important for you to know where I'm coming from - everything I do and every moment I do it in is sacred to me.  All is sacred to me because I know that within me.  Lakota spirituality resonates deeply with me because it shows me that cultures other than mine feel we are all related.  If we are all related, there is nothing that is not sacred.  I don't need to co-opt another culture's language or religion or way of life to know that.  I know that just by existing.

<<Why not just talk to Soliz and ask him to clear up what Darlene Cross has publicly stated, and the ceremony selling he does on his website?>>

I won’t because I'm not willing to cop to your non-sequiturs embedded in the statement above.  You have utterly failed to prove Andrew is somehow claiming Vernal passed on his hochoka to him – even as you admit Andrew was not among the wrongdoers identified by Darlene. 

I am satisfied with what Andrew has said – he has permission to do what he does.  Since you are the one who isn’t, why don’t you ask Darlene and Michael Cross directly about these things?
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 16, 2011, 08:31:55 pm
Dear snorks:

That's interesting, but I confess I know nothing about Reiki.  I wasn't saying that there is "some sort of current that is received when standing in the sacred circle" that can be then "passed on to others". 

I was saying that I thought Darlene was referring to Vernal's "power" as a medicine man to conduct sundance in the manner in which he had conducted it.  I then realized I may have been interpreting the word "hochoka" in too narrow a sense, leading me to perhaps misinterpret what Darlene meant. 

However, I realize something akin to what you have said may be happening at sundance.  I'm just not the one qualified to make that determination.

Peace to you,

Rod

Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Smart Mule on July 17, 2011, 01:33:53 pm
Dear educatedindian:

I understand the Lakota "M-O" phrase, as you call it, to mean "we are all related" in English, and I use it assuming it means that.  I am certainly not using it to say "Hello" or "Have a nice day" or "God bless you".  I am using it knowing it is perhaps the most profound statement of fact ever made in human history. 

Perhaps you could explain what makes you jump to the conclusion that I am using it "casually". 

Hello Rod,

Why do you feel that the specific phrase being discussed is perhaps the most profound statement of fact ever made in human history?  How would you explain the phrase as you have been taught or have interpretted?

Quote
You appear to speak from great authority when you criticize me, for the use of a word, or the way I use a word, yet you say precious little in educating me about it.  I am puzzled why you don't clearly explain the meaning of the words I use and the correct context in which I use them, instead you jump to conclusions:

<<I suspect, in part because of your empty and repeated inappropriate use of a Lakota phrase you don't understand, there's little hope of getting through to you>>

Rather, it would be more respectful, make more sense logically and serve to educate others if you explained which words I'm using inappropriately and in an empty way and how I am doing so, so that I can correct my alleged misunderstanding. 

There are a number of Lakota speakers on this forum.  Not a single one of them close posts made on the internet with that phrase.  The People I know who are from Lakota communities to not use the phrase in conversation, not even the People who are considered to be spiritual leaders.

Quote
To be fair, you did explain a little bit to me, such as saying "M-O" is used only in ceremony, and not casually.  You've gotten through to me on that point, I can assure you.  In order to not further - unwittingly – antagonize you, I will no longer use it here. 

I think that simply stating the facts as to the proper use, without getting into the discussion of when and how such a phrase is used, is appropriate.  It is not educatedindians place to teach certain aspects of protocol, especially not on the internet.

Quote
However, if it is important for you to know where I'm coming from - everything I do and every moment I do it in is sacred to me.  All is sacred to me because I know that within me.  Lakota spirituality resonates deeply with me because it shows me that cultures other than mine feel we are all related.  If we are all related, there is nothing that is not sacred.  I don't need to co-opt another culture's language or religion or way of life to know that.  I know that just by existing.

If everything is sacred it should be treated with respect, don't you think?  Do you think that taking something from another culture, when you don't know the traditional and tribally specific meaning behnd it to be respectful?

Quote
<<Why not just talk to Soliz and ask him to clear up what Darlene Cross has publicly stated, and the ceremony selling he does on his website?>>

I won’t because I'm not willing to cop to your non-sequiturs embedded in the statement above.  You have utterly failed to prove Andrew is somehow claiming Vernal passed on his hochoka to him – even as you admit Andrew was not among the wrongdoers identified by Darlene. 

I am satisfied with what Andrew has said – he has permission to do what he does.  Since you are the one who isn’t, why don’t you ask Darlene and Michael Cross directly about these things?


He has permission to do what he does?  Do you think that it is permissable to charge people for healing when that is not part of the culture that he is supposedly learned in?  Why do you think it is proper for people who are not Lakota to charge for something that the Elders and Healers give freely?
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 17, 2011, 03:57:14 pm
Dear sky:

The term we have been discussing is the most profound statement of fact ever made because I know it to mean that even if there someone disagrees with me, even if someone does something "out of protocol", even if that person outright intends to destroy me - that person is part of the Creator, as am I and everything in Creation. 

In my humble opinion, the time in which all "ceremony" infuses every moment of every person's day is rapidly approaching.  No longer will one be able to act one way in ceremony and the opposite outside of ceremony.  The Lakota did not tell me that;  I know it in my heart. 

While you and educatedindian have been busy taking me to task on the use of a word, I have been here only to get across my belief that Andrew has helped people who needed it. 

Will you be the one to try to take away the effect of all that good work because of a breach of protocol?  Can you?  Do you think, if there has been such a breach, that the Spirits would have allowed the work to be successful in the first place?

Is it your understanding that it is not the protocol of medicine men to accept donations for their efforts and that it is not protocol for the one asking for help to offer one?  Do you even acknowledge that Andrew has already stated here that he is not a medicine man?   Does it not factor into your fraud investigation that one who is a real medicine man from a lineage of medicine men is Andrew's brother? 

Most importantly, have you heard from anyone claiming they were hurt by Andrew?

Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Smart Mule on July 17, 2011, 07:15:23 pm
To avoid a semantics tangent I've sent you a pm.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: earthw7 on July 20, 2011, 12:00:25 am
I read the whole post ???
Why is it when we as Lakota people say this is not right; that those who use our
words with very little understanding what they really mean, they tend to think that it is their
right to STEAL-ABUSE my culture and my language. When we say a person is doing
wrong we have a roupie-white guy step up to say this is a good person as he charges money
for what should be free among the people. If he was a real person and one who cared about the Lakota
people he would live among the people and help them instead of taken white people
money. He has been taught nothing because if he was he would not be doing what he
is doing.  YOU--- Rod Ciferri have the gall to tell us what our cultural ways are.................
They you want to tell us what our words mean-see this is what happens when these
people come in to to steal our culture.  Oh I did knew Vernal and he had ghost medicine
why would anyone want to steal that, he did not teach or leave his medicine to anyone.
Why is it when a person died you have these people stepping up to say they have been taught
by him.  If you know our ways you are required to have four witness to prove what you are saying is true. who are his witness?
Please dont tell me you know my culture and langauge by using my culture that makes you a person who would steal from another
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on July 21, 2011, 10:15:58 pm
Dear sky:

The term we have been discussing is the most profound statement of fact ever made because I know it to mean that even if there someone disagrees with me, even if someone does something "out of protocol", even if that person outright intends to destroy me - that person is part of the Creator, as am I and everything in Creation.  

In my humble opinion, the time in which all "ceremony" infuses every moment of every person's day is rapidly approaching.  No longer will one be able to act one way in ceremony and the opposite outside of ceremony.  The Lakota did not tell me that;  I know it in my heart.  

While you and educatedindian have been busy taking me to task on the use of a word, I have been here only to get across my belief that Andrew has helped people who needed it.  

Will you be the one to try to take away the effect of all that good work because of a breach of protocol?  Can you?  Do you think, if there has been such a breach, that the Spirits would have allowed the work to be successful in the first place?

Is it your understanding that it is not the protocol of medicine men to accept donations for their efforts and that it is not protocol for the one asking for help to offer one?  Do you even acknowledge that Andrew has already stated here that he is not a medicine man?   Does it not factor into your fraud investigation that one who is a real medicine man from a lineage of medicine men is Andrew's brother?  

Most importantly, have you heard from anyone claiming they were hurt by Andrew?


Mr. Ciferri, you seem to put an awful lot of effort into ignoring what's right in front of you, even after being told repeatedly.

Once again, Soliz himself claims Vernal Cross authorized him. That's his own words you've ignored at least three times now.

Once again, Darlene Cross herself says no one was ever authorized to do ceremony by Vernal.

That means the Cross family itself is harmed by Soliz, the very man adopted by them.

And yes, all those people going thru ceremonies that are not valid, that are not being done properly because they are unauthorized and pay to pray ceremonies, each of them have been harmed by Soliz, no different than a man who claims to be a priest but is not and then conducts Christian marriage or baptism ceremonies that are not valid.

My guess would be that the people harmed perhaps includes you, Mr. Ciferri. You sure seem to value the teachings from Soliz, but it's clear your understanding of Lakota tradition is far from accurate. Or you would know the very act of either demanding or offering payment for ceremony is wrong, corrupting, crass, and unspiritual. You have been harmed by being given falsehoods, and are now clinging very hard to those falsehoods.

Soliz's repeated claim that he does not call himself a medicine man means little since he basically has "set up a shingle" online claiming virtually the same thing, and charges for it. Medicine people do accept payment when it's freely offered from the heart afterwards, but demanding a set price is wrong, and going online to advertise is about as wrong as you can get.

Of course, you could solve all this quickly by asking him a simple question. But as we know, you absolutely refuse to do so. You'd rather stay ignorant of the matter. And you'd rather ignore what Natives, including Lakota, have told you, relying instead on the word of an adopted man of seemingly vague ancestry, when the Lakota repeatedly state adoption gives NO right to do ceremony. Period.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 29, 2011, 06:21:34 pm
To earthw7:

<<Oh I did knew Vernal and he had ghost medicine why would anyone want to steal that>>

Since we all seem to agree that Vernal never passed his medicine on, how is it possible to “steal” it?

BTW, in your opinion, is Vernal the only one in the history of the World to have ghost medicine?

For that matter, you must have known Vernal’s son Michael, right?  Do you think maybe he had ghost medicine as well – “independently” of his father (since his father didn’t pass on “his” medicine)?

<<we have a roupie-white guy step up to say this is a good person as he charges money for what should be free among the people>>

Guess neither you nor “educatedindian” can intelligently speak of what I have offered here.  You both need to put words into my mouth, that this forum proves were never uttered, and hallucinate meanings to my words that were never intended. 

You MAKE BELIEVE that a particular page on a website “proves” that Andrew charges for Lakota ceremony.  On the other hand you have me here stating that I’ve been helped by Andrew – and he never charged me, or even broached the subject of money.  Yet, my first-hand account isn’t good enough for you. 
Furthermore, you have NO ONE here with first-hand knowledge of Andrew purporting to offer Lakota ceremony for money.  You have me stating my FIRST-HAND experience that it’s not the case.  Yet, you prefer to PRETEND that I’m just making it all up to fit in with your hallucination of what it must be like to work with Andrew.

Let’s get this straight:

1.   You have never worked with Andrew, so everything you think happens working with him is just your best GUESS, SPECULATION AND HALLUCINATION.

2.   I HAVE worked with Andrew; as such I have real world experience that is the OPPOSITE of what you say. 

<<Why is it when a person died you have these people stepping up to say they have been taught by him>>

Why is this statement even relevant?  You say you have read over “the whole post”, do you mean you read this entire thread?  Because, if that’s what you mean, you have a serious reading comprehension problem and should try again.   You and educatedindian just PRETEND that Andrew claimed to be taught by Vernal.  You have a post here from Andrew that clearly does not say what you contend he said. 

Put up, or shut up!  When are you and educatedindian going to actually post FACTS to support your wild hallucinations?  I KNOW you never will, because it’s objectively not possible.  You’ve painted yourselves into a corner by making SUPPOSTITIONS that do not logically follow what is known.

And don’t think my calling your BS is telling you your “cultural ways” – it’s just pointing out your BS.

<<YOU--- Rod Ciferri have the gall to tell us what our cultural ways are.................>>

I answered Sky’s QUESTION of me.  I wasn’t just gratuitously telling everybody what Lakota culture is. 

YOU, earthw7, have the gall to MAKE PRETEND I’m telling you your cultural ways.

Sky asked me what I thought a particular Lakota word meant to ME.  I answered.  NEITHER YOU NOR “EDUCATED INDIAN” have told me it’s not what that word means.  Why don’t you tell me my definition of the word is NOT the actual definition?  If the word is from “your” culture, you should be able to tell me I’m wrong about its meaning, right?  Better yet, why don’t you educate me about what it really means?  That shouldn’t be so hard for you – after all, it’s “your” culture, right?

Also, FYI, I have the right to give my opinion anywhere and at any time.  This forum has the right to say I can’t speak here and kick me out.  Until then, I can and will speak my mind in a rational way.
 
<<If you know our ways you are required to have four witness to prove what you are saying is true. who are his witness?>>

BTW, when you say “our ways”, to whom are you referring?  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and clear up your muddled reasoning for you.  Let’s assume you mean it is Lakota ways that require proof of four witnesses’ testimony.  Let’s further assume that contention is true.  I’m going to further assume that one of the witnesses cannot be the person about whom the opinion concerns.  So, Andrew’s opinion about himself posted here cannot be counted as a witness, right?  Let’s further assume that what you mean by “witness” is someone with personal knowledge about a particular thing –here, the thing is an opinion formed about Andrew by someone who actually spent time with Andrew (otherwise they cannot have personal knowledge). 

Then, you are correct that there have not been four witnesses to offer an opinion about Andrew based on personal knowledge. 

There have only been TWO -- Me and Carrie Woodburn.  Both those witnesses – the only witnesses to post here – have a positive opinion of Andrew.  Those who don’t have a positive opinion of Andrew – like yourself and educatedindian – ARE NOT WITNESSES.
 
So, there are two witnesses for Andrew and NONE against him.  That might not prove to you that Andrew’s a good guy, because you would need four witnesses for that, but it certainly points out the utter lack of witnesses that can say from personal knowledge that he’s not (opinions not based on personal knowledge or content on a website are HEARSAY and not good enough to be reliable).
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Rod Ciferri on July 29, 2011, 07:09:59 pm
Dear educatedindian:

<<Once again, Soliz himself claims Vernal Cross authorized him. That's his own words you've ignored at least three times now>>

I’m still waiting for you to support your hallucination, educatedindian.  Should be easy enough – it’s called “cut and paste.”

POST HIS STATEMENT HERE.  Otherwise, it is YOU who is the FRAUD!

[Looooong series of spamming, childishness, and abusive language deleted]





[Al's note: Ciferri chose to spam us, yet again. This time it was with a long series of abusive, insulting, and childishishness aimed at not just me, but even at a Lakota. Rather than foist this on us all yet again, his childishness, spam, and even some cursing, were all deleted. So will any future spam from him.

If you wish to apologize and say something useful or even act like an adult for a change, Mr. Ciferri, let us know. Until then all you've done is waste our time by repeatedly spamming, and made Mr. Soliz and his following look like you have something to hide.

And since Mr. Ciferri is either too lazy or, more likely, being willfully blind, here is the statement from Mr. Soliz himself, yet again. It was there all the time in the earlier posts, and Mr. Ciferri refused to even bother to look despite it being pointed out to him no less than three time.

"Five years ago I was adopted by Darlene Cross. Her husband was Vernal Cross, a very well respected Medicine Man from Kyle South Dakota. Their son and my brother is Michael Cross, a very well respected Medicine Man in his own right who has been recognized by the tribe. >>>Everything I do is with their permission.<<<"

The bolding and arrows are mine.

Yet we have Darlene Cross's own public statement, also pointed to repeatedly for Mr. Ciferri: No one was authorized by Vernal.

Not to mention Soliz is adopted and has no right to do Lakota ceremony, and also continues to be a ceremony seller.

Moved to Frauds.]
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on July 29, 2011, 09:07:08 pm

You MAKE BELIEVE that a particular page on a website “proves” that Andrew charges for Lakota ceremony.  On the other hand you have me here stating that I’ve been helped by Andrew – and he never charged me, or even broached the subject of money.  Yet, my first-hand account isn’t good enough for you.  
Furthermore, you have NO ONE here with first-hand knowledge of Andrew purporting to offer Lakota ceremony for money.  You have me stating my FIRST-HAND experience that it’s not the case.


As we can all see, you're either ignorant, or more likely, choosing to be blind.

Soliz's own websites state he charges for ceremony.

Once again, if you'd bothered to look, the evidence is right there in front of you, and straight from Soliz himself. He charges up to 1800 bucks.

From his own website:

"Your purchase of a custom "Spirit Medicine Bag" will include:

a 90 minute private phone or in person session with Andrew Soliz

Andrew will then sit in prayer and >>>ceremony<<<, honoring and communicating with the animal spirit guides that made themselves known in your 90 minute session.

next Andrew will create your beautiful custom bag with the energies of the animal spirits.

your custom order will be available 2 weeks from the date of your 90 minute consultation.

custom "Spirit Medicine Bags" range from >>>$1200-$1800<<<.

50% deposit is required at time of consultation and >>>payment in full<<< at time of "Spirit Medicine Bag" completion and a $100 initial deposit will reserve your session date"

I don't think we've seen such crassly commercial pay to pray ceremony in awhile.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Sad-Old-Druid on July 30, 2011, 01:57:46 pm
I was shocked by his insolence towards earthw7.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: snorks on July 30, 2011, 04:31:19 pm
Interesting how quickly he went from reasonable to very angry.  

One reason reason why I asked the Reiki-type question was to get at his notions of how ceremonies are "transferred".  In the New Age, the current is passed from person to person, instead of by asking permission and get authorization.  It would follow in the New Age sense that A.Soliz would be legitimate.  But, as everyone has repeatedly pointed out - he is a fraud.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: debbieredbear on July 30, 2011, 04:40:16 pm
Having dealt with this type of person before, I was not shocked at the disrespect shown to earth. Sadly, many newagers have such a sense of entitlement, that they will arrogantly dismiss any Native person's objections.

Another way newgaers "pass" ceremony is through  channeling. They will say it was channeled by so and so's guide so it must be "real Indian" and therefore legit. I have a friend who still does not understand that her "authentic Indian moon ceremony" is nothing but a guided meditation.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on July 30, 2011, 04:49:59 pm
Yeah pretty condescending to EarthW.

And then didn't even get the "witness" thing, I guess his reading comprehension
could use some help..

But yeah, I've seen this before, the new age types, they're all O.K. until reason
and rational thought begin to point out the fake and fraud in their lives.. then they
unravel. It's understandable though.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: earthw7 on July 31, 2011, 03:06:15 am
Well what can i say :o
The witnesses are a part of our culture when a adoption happens
we have always done this this is  how we know things were done right.

We know who we are and dont need a person who is not our culture
telling what is right or wrong and no we dont have to educate them.

When a person goes from trying to be related to everyone to demand
and yelling at people you know he has a long way to go before he finds that center
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: bluebirdneighbor on June 11, 2012, 04:42:57 am
Update on Andrew Soliz

I just read a lot of interesting information about our new neighbor and thought forum members might be interested in what Andrew Soliz has been up to lately. Last fall Soliz moved into home in Laguna Beach, California that his girlfriend/wife Carrie Woodburn purchased in September 2011 for 1.2 million dollars. We believe that the primary reason for this purchase was to set up a new age "community" compound where Soliz and Woodburn could host the variety of New Age workshops and retreats. They also have merged their New Age enterprise with the Sweat Lodge ceremonies that Soliz runs.  Shortly after moving in they began to "prepare" the property for their NewAge community center. (source Carrie Woodburn twitter)
Quote
As we near the close of 2011, Andrew and I are immersed in creating many exciting new launches to come early 2012.  Meanwhile we invite you to come play and pray with us on any of the occasions below that sing to YOU!  We've been preparing the land of our new home for ceremony and circles.  Andrew will be leading monthly community sweat lodge ceremonies here in Laguna Beach for those of you called. 

There has been a lot of local press on the issue. I have included links to some of the articles. I also encourage you to check out Carrie Woodburn on Twitter. She posts all of her emails and advertisements to her followers there - including this one that advertises a "veil of the goddess circle" that she bundled with a sweat lodge ceremony for $95.00 per person. http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Next-Veil-of-Goddess-Circles-with-Carrie---Cindy.html?soid=1102286017429&aid=JffBQu6Pho8 (http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Next-Veil-of-Goddess-Circles-with-Carrie---Cindy.html?soid=1102286017429&aid=JffBQu6Pho8)
 
Soliz  frequently mentions the Native American Freedom of Religion Act as a source of blanket protection for all that he wants to do on the property - including  Woodburn's feminine mystery seminars she holds in the tipi. My question is this - What type of protection does this Act afford? What does it mean to be "adopted"?  What if he is not really a Native American? Does it matter who owns the property? How do real Native American's feel about the merging of New Age  and sacred Native ceremonies.

Soliz and Woodburn have lied to the neighbors on so many occasions it is hard to keep track. They insist that "ceremony is not a business" yet they relentlessly promote and sell these ceremonies and circles through Woodburn's website Alchemy of the Heart. Soliz has gone underground leaving Facebook and his Sacred Ways website. He has merged most if not all of his operation with Woodburn's site. The following links are to the articles and guest columns in our local paper.
 
I wonder what the Lakota people think of guys like Soliz?  He lives in one of the wealthiest communities in the world  - drives around town in a Porsche and Range Rover  -  and provideds sacred Native ceremonies to  rich wannabe white New Agers.

http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/02/24/sweat-lodge-concerns-heat/ (http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/02/24/sweat-lodge-concerns-heat/)
 
http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/04/07/sweat-lodge-owner-complies-local/ (http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/04/07/sweat-lodge-owner-complies-local/)
 
http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/04/11/disputing-sweat-lodge-reporting/ (http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/04/11/disputing-sweat-lodge-reporting/)
 
http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/04/18/territorial-attitudes-unfairly/ (http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/04/18/territorial-attitudes-unfairly/)
 
http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/04/18/territorial-attitudes-unfairly/#comments (http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/04/18/territorial-attitudes-unfairly/#comments)
 
http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/05/07/guest-column-23/ (http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/05/07/guest-column-23/)
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Pono Aloha on June 11, 2012, 05:20:29 am
I'm no expert on the law, but reading the text here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Religious_Freedom_Act it appears that its provisions do not apply to this situation. It is not uncommon for people to throw around laws even if they don't apply to them. Most importantly, towards the bottom of the article it shows the definition of Indian is member of a tribe. Can he show he is an enrolled member of a recognized tribe?
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: bluebirdneighbor on June 11, 2012, 03:21:30 pm
He told us he has a "tribal card" but as far as I know - no one has seen it and the newspapers here never asked to see it. He frequently brings up the struggles of Native people and that now it is his time to "fight the fight". We feel he exploits the true and real hardships of Native people to engender sympathy for himself. Clearly he is not suffering or struggling in any way. Here is an excerpt from one of the articles on Soliz in the Laguna Beach Independent
Quote
“This has been happening to American Indians for hundreds of years,” said Soliz.  “I guess it’s my turn to fight the fight.”

Soliz cites the American Indian Religious Freedom Act of 1978 and the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000 as protection to practice his religion where he chooses.  “I don’t believe I’m doing anything wrong and I’m willing to stand for that fight,” said Soliz, who moved to Laguna Beach from Ojai in 2010. “This is my home and I have the right to practice my spirituality in my home.”
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 11, 2012, 04:23:38 pm
I don't think that would stand in court. If he was simply practicing his religion, that would be one thing, but this is clearly not what he is doing if he is opening a center and charging people admission. That is not practicing any religion. That is having a business.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: nemesis on June 11, 2012, 04:46:59 pm
I have serious concerns about the workshops run by Soliz's partner Carrie Rae Woodburn

For example here

Cultivating the Sacred Feminine Workshop for Women

Cultivating the Sacred Feminine January 16th Laguna Beach 12:30-5:30pm $75 pre-registration only at: www.kensho.bz/workshops/sacredfeminine.html

FB page
http://www.facebook.com/notes/carrie-rae-woodburn/cultivating-the-sacred-feminine-workshop-for-women/86498758560



from her website
Quote
Carrie Woodburn, CEHP, is a Certified Energy Health Practitioner and Alchemist. Alchemy of the Heart evolved out of Carrie's experience of the power of the human heart to heal and awaken consciousness. She is deeply committed as a catalyst for positive change in community and in the world. She is particularly interested in bridging the gap between complimentary and conventional beliefs as she believes we are on the brink of a significant evolution in human consciousness, which will have a momentous impact to our future. In her work, she began to see a common thread in that many seemed to be experiencing an impulse to evolve...to seek a greater sense of fulfillment. She believes this is the catalyst that is causing many to awaken spiritually, and that it resides in the heart of humanity. Carrie is deeply committed to doing her part in creating a peaceful future that is guided by love instead of fear and she believes this is dependent on each of us "waking up" to our authentic selves and being an expression of that in our work and in the world.

Carrie works with Women, Men and Teens utilizing multiple healing modalities in her practice of Healing and Integration. Her work facilitates a transformative healing impact to areas one may be emotionally, physically, mentally or spiritually blocked, or simply ready to expand to the next level of consciousness. Specific areas of impact include freedom and healing from addictions, fear based limitations, limiting belief systems, physical pain, emotional or spiritual turmoil, increased creativity, clarity, vitality and joy. Clients experience deep real life transformation with a basis of wellness as a place to begin from rather than arrive to.

Whether guiding groups on Retreat at one of various global destinations or in private individual session, Carrie  offers guidance through Energetic Healing, Breathwork, Play, Ritual and Wisdom Teachings as part of her map for Healthful Living.

source:
http://www.alchemyoftheheart.net/about_carrie_woodburn.html

also
Quote
Rites of Passage for Women

 Women are deeply connected to the mysteries of the Earth.  One must only scratch the surface of our ancestral memories and rites of passage to discover the richness of ancient Goddess culture.  In doing so, something alchemical occurs.  We begin to feel a stirring within.  An ancient yet somehow familiar knowing, stirring in the soul.  The farther back we extend our reach we discover that all cultures were at one time rooted in reverence for the Goddess. She lives. She lives right now in the impulse we as women are collectively experiencing to “evolve”.  It is she who is whispering in our ear to awaken the places we have been slumbering. What if we allowed ourselves to remember the natural impulse of the teachings of our blood?  To reconnect with the feminine source energy our bodies know so naturally? To remember our inherent ability to “be” earth and sky within our own feminine form?

and


“When you choose to sit on the Earth as a Goddess….she awakens to your call. Our bodies are like sacred text, showing us the ways of wisdom through our feminine form.  We are wisdom-keepers. Through Ritual and Ceremony we access gateways to sacred and ancient mysteries of the ways of women as only women can know. Through specifically designed Rites of Passage Ceremony we not only give ourselves the gift of celebrating life’s transitions, but also discovering the depth of our true beauty, strength, wisdom and grace.”
- Carrie Woodburn

http://www.alchemyoftheheart.net/alchemy_of_the_heart_ritual_rites_passage_women.html


While the "discover your inner goddess" workshops do not have the overtly sexual themes advertised by sex trafficking recruiters, they are still events at which the participants will feel extremely vulnerable and "open", due to their nature.

While Carrie Rae Woodburn's FB friends list does not contain many friends involved in prostitution, it does contain at least one newage sex worker working at a "goddess temple".  edited to add, there are a few female friends who describe themselves as "dakinis" and / or work at "goddess temples". 

I notice that Carrie Rae Woodburn's "goddess" events include "breathwork", a pseudo-therapeutic intervention commonly used by newage cults and predators.  

Personally I have no problem with rites of passage rituals.  I think it likely that many victims are falling prey to predators due to a lack of rites of passage and transition honouring rituals in our own cultures.  However rites of passage are not about personal-development or psychotherapy, they are events and rituals for the whole community in which an individuals rights and responsibilities within their community are celebrated and consolidated by the community.

New age appropriations of ROP rituals are always "me me me" focussed and always about personal development and never about the community (cultic pseudo-communities excepted).  

It is incredibly important that ROP rituals are presided over by respected elders from the community and not dodgy newage entrepreneurs with a demonstrable lack of respect for the community.

In addition to my concerns about Carrie Rae Woodburn, I am disgusted by Soliz's arrogance and his blatant disrespect towards native people in general and towards respected community members here.  

How on earth can such a man claim to be qualified to run any kind of community event, let alone sweat lodges?


edited to say....
Quote
Carrie is an Energy Health Practitioner, Artist, life student of the Tantric traditions of Feminine Power, and Teacher of Feminine Mystery.  She helps people connect with their hearts which creates an opening for healing and a rich experience of truth.

Carrie facilitates group programs that awaken, inspire and empower others to make effective, lasting change, opening a new context and orientation for "well"-"being" as a place to begin from vs. arrive to.

source:
http://www.alchemyoftheheart.net/alchemy_of_the_heart_retreats_bali.html

OK so we have pseudo-tantra as well
I have to say that this looks fairly dodgy to me






Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Pono Aloha on June 11, 2012, 05:25:14 pm
If Carrie has been running her programs out of her house, my guess is that it will not be possible to stop Andrew. They have to be treated equally under the law, whether or not he is ndn. Perhaps if his ceremonies are increasing the traffic, the city could put limits on numbers of people, but not what they do once they get there. I surely would love to see that tribal card. But as others have said, even if he is card-carrying pueblo, that doesn't mean he can do lakota ceremony. I also find it disingenuous that he "doesn't say he is a medicine man" yet does ceremonies. We've got one like that here -- says he was trained as a kahuna but doesn't use the title so as not to offend. Yeah right. I'm offended!
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 11, 2012, 05:45:54 pm
Well, depends on the city's laws for business zoning. I'm not sure as I'm not a lawyer, but it
seems to me it'd be kind of hard to prove that their business is Native American religion.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: bluebirdneighbor on June 11, 2012, 10:42:02 pm
Isn't this the root of the problem for all "pay-to-pray" Sweat Lodge operations - that is is religious freedom - not a money making enterprise despite the "donations". It is clear to all that Andrew does not need donations to sustain him as he enjoys his life in a 1.2 million dollar home what is called the "gold coast" of Southern California.   I think the Native American community could do a lot to dissuade wannabe white folks from attending these ceremonies by educating them that they are actually being disrespectful of sacred Native traditions and people by supporting these operators. I encourage all of the Native members to comment on line to any of the articles written in The Laguna Beach Independent. Here is a link to one of the articles http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/02/24/sweat-lodge-concerns-heat/ (http://www.lagunabeachindy.com/2012/02/24/sweat-lodge-concerns-heat/)
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: tecpaocelotl on June 12, 2012, 12:07:04 am
Once we take this guy down, does that mean we'll take more down who reside in this area?
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 12, 2012, 01:37:53 am
Well, I thought he was doing more than sweat lodge, but doing a lot of new age things,
which isn't Native religion. I guess I was thinking that a sworn statement by members of
the tribe he claims to be part of, stating that what he is doing is NOT their religion would
kind of debunk his claim of the Native American Freedom of Religion Act.

I think the root of the problem with all "pay to pray" sweat lodges is not religious freedom,
but religious misappropriation for personal gain. And the fact that people don't want to
listen or know or believe that what they are paying for is bunk. It's a big scam and no one
wants to admit that.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: bluebirdneighbor on June 12, 2012, 02:09:54 am
To critter - please forgive me if I miscommunicated my last post. I agree that what Soliz is doing has nothing to do with real Native American religious freedom. It's just hard to have a rational or meaningful debate  with them (Soliz/Woodburn) when they insist that all they're doing is practicing their religion - not exploiting the religious traditions of native people for personal financial gain.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 12, 2012, 03:17:22 am
I agree bluebird, it is hard. But, I think if the community wants to put an end to this
then they would have to know if having a business in that neighborhood is
prohibited by zoning laws, and then prove to the court that what he is doing
is a business. Which, shouldn't be too hard. Are they filing taxes with the money
they are making off these things? Or are they tax exempt and calling their self a
church? Seems to me, charging for "programs" is a business. But, again, I'm not
a lawyer and I am only going by what I know of my own neighborhood's laws.

:)
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Pono Aloha on June 12, 2012, 07:15:17 am
If they are operating as a non-profit, they have to file an IRS Form 990, which is easily found online. Looking up "Sacred Ways," the name of his organization, I only find 990s for 2004 and 2005. http://foundationcenter.org/findfunders/990finder/ In the 2005 form (filed in 2008) he claimed to be a church, to have revenue of $72,000, salary of $23,000.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: nemesis on June 12, 2012, 03:23:08 pm
Just a little more about Carrie Woodburn

She appears to be quite involved in an organisation called the Goddess Temple of Orange County

Her name is given as the contact person for an event there

Quote
DEC 29th--Tantric Dance of Feminine Power with Vajra Ma
Public Event · By Vajra Ma

    Thursday, December 29, 2011
    6:30pm until 9:30pm

   
The GODDESS TEMPLE of Orange County, Irvine, CA
   ADDED CLASS--DECEMBER 29th!! CLASS FULL. Contact Carrie for waiting list. Or--next time! Tantric Dance of Feminine Power with Vajra Ma
To register contact Carrie Woodburn 949 433 7802 wakeupcall@cox.net>
This workshop is appropriate for women new to the TD of FP and Advanced Students.
Must register with Carrie, not on FB event page. $50
$65 at door, space permitting, must call first.


http://www.facebook.com/events/315725205119419/

Woodburn also has at least 2 FB friends who work at the "temple", firstly

Vajra Ma - a senior person at the "temple" and the women who ran the above event in 2011
 - you can read her recommended reading list (including various books on "tantra") here
http://www.goddesstempleoforangecounty.com/reading.html
Her FB page is here
http://www.facebook.com/vajra.ma?sk=info
and her FB friends include
ALisa Starkweather - needs her own thread, very involved in the Red Tent movement, an associate of Brooke Medicine Eagle and Susun Weed
DeAnna L'am - also needs her own thread, very involved in the Red tent Movement, another associate of Brooke Medicine Eagle and Susun Weed


another FB friend of Carrie Woodburn who works at the "Goddess temple is Gaia Moon
FB page http://www.facebook.com/shaktimind
pls notice that her interests include: expanded orgasm, tantric sex, tantric yoga and sex magick.
Gaia Moon's FB friends include various newage brothels including Aadara Tantra Berlin, Chakra Tantra Temple, GoddessTemple Tantra and Jade Lotus Tantra.  Friends also include "Baba" Dez Nichols (a newage pimp) and countless newage sex workers including Gypsy Lynn Iyata and Crystal Dawn Morris (of Phoenix Goddess Temple notoriety), Amara Charles (DTMMS) and "Pamela Jane" (an interesting lady who belongs to some Ashram Shambala meetup groups). 

I can remember looking at the Goddess Temple of Orange County website ages ago and thinking that it appeared to be more of a neo-pagan "wimmin's" temple rather than the standard newage brothel, but given the promotion of books on "tantra" and the involvement of one of the staff (Gaia Moon) in the pseudo-tantric scene with its sex workers and brothels and the involvement of a senior member of the "temple" with extremely dodgy people in the red tent movement, I have to say that this "temple" seems to have one foot in one camp and one foot in another.

The temple website actually charges subscriptions to members along the following rates
Quote
BECOMING a TEMPLE PLEDGING PRIESTESS/MEMBER
To join the Temple as a member and receive your beautiful new color Goddess Prayer in the mail every month as Her gift to you, choose your monthly pledge amount:

Circle of the Earth $25
Circle of the Sun $40
Circle of the Moon $75
Circle of the Stars $200
Send your first pledge check made payable to "The GODDESS TEMPLE of Orange County"

Mail to:
17905 Sky Park Circle, Suite A, Irvine, CA 92614

For more information about the benefits of each circle, please request the brochure"Becoming a Priestess" by e-mail: info@goddesstempleoforangecounty.com or by regular post.

Individual Donations are warmly accepted and greatly appreciated.
Please indicate this type of gift with the note:
"Individual Donation" in the memo section of your check.

verah spirchul I'm sure

So, to conclude, Carrie Woodburn is involved with a fairly dodgy looking "Goddess Temple".  It is not the dodgiest temple I have ever seen by a very long shot, however there are indications that it is fairly dodgy. 

I would be extremely concerned if any of my female friends were attending the ceremonies and retreats run by Carrie Woodburn .
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 12, 2012, 03:30:06 pm
Salary of 23,000 gets him into a 1.2 million house. Sounds like the IRS needs to do an audit..  :-\
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: bluebirdneighbor on June 12, 2012, 05:54:43 pm
The home was purchased by Woodburn. They claim they are married but who knows if it is a legal union recognized by the State of California.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: bluebirdneighbor on June 12, 2012, 05:56:16 pm
Also - the address was made public by the Laguna Beach Independent in one of the first articles they ran on the story. 932 Meadowlark Dr, 92651
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Pono Aloha on June 12, 2012, 07:34:41 pm
I'd be more interested in an audit on why no more 990s were filed. Have they given up their tax exemption as a church and turned into a business? If so, there goes his religious freedom claim. Or did they "forget" to file 990s?
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: bluebirdneighbor on June 13, 2012, 04:16:40 am
Here is some info as to what he was up to with non profit in 2009 - well after the dates you found. http://www.wildcoyote.biz/sweatlodge09.pdf (http://www.wildcoyote.biz/sweatlodge09.pdf)

Quote
Sacred Ways…
Our ceremony’s master will be Andrew Soliz who has been performing sweat lodge ceremonies for people from all over the world.  He often travels and attends different tribal pow-wows, and has been blessed by many
tribal chiefs for his gift and dedication to his work.   Sacred Ways brings together teachers, leaders and other like-minded individuals to share wisdom and promote racial harmony in a safe, nurturing environment founded on integrity.
The circle is strong and full of medicine. Sacred Ways is based on integrity and upholding the traditional ways.

More info about costs/fees/"donations"
Quote
No Costs, Just Donations…
Sacred Ways is a non-profit organization and depends on your generous donations to supports its program.
THERE IS NEVER A FEE FOR THE CEREMONY, and NO ONE IS EVER TURNED AWAY.
The donations from your heart make it possible for us to bring the medicine and ceremonies to all.  There will be a cost for individuals
interested in private sessions (vision quest, spiritual healing, etc.) with Andrew, after the sweat ceremony in our tipi.

Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: StudentofLife on July 11, 2012, 02:09:17 am
I stumbled upon this site and this listing using google during my own research into information on Andrew Soliz. I'll write my experiences and opinions here and respond to any questions so long as I receive the notification or have time to check back.

I was referred to Andrew by a well respected and trustworthy friend of mine in Los Angeles. He suggested I speak with Andrew as a sort of spiritual adviser (There was no exchange of money for the referral or the advice Andrew offered). Ended up doing sweats with Andrew, for free, at his home in Laguna Beach. Andrew lives with his girlfriend down there, and his girlfriend owns the home there. My understanding of what Andrew does with the often referenced site "Alchemy of the Heart" is sort of a contracted work type gig. The website is not managed by him and he does not own the company from what I've gathered. It seems the sort of situation where the organisation hires Andrew as their spiritual guru and while Andrew is at their retreats he gives advice, performs services, and offers sweats. This may be a "loop hole" for in a way technically having sweats paid for, but not by Andrews design. Attendees seem to pay Alchemy of the Heart for the retreats, and Andrew happens to also offer Sweats at these retreats while there. I have not personally attended one of these retreats though, I've only spoken with many who have and are involved with Andrew. The sweats I attended at Andrews home are absolutely free and money is not mentioned. Donations are not even mentioned, but when asked Andrew will point out a little donation container where someone could put any amount if they so chose. However, again, I do not have personal experience with these retreats and this is only what I've "gathered" in researching and through overheard conversations. If you want to discredit this first paragraph then that's fine, I'd understand.

Regarding Sun Dances, I recently attended a Sun Dance in South Dakota with Andrew and the Oglala Sioux tribe, whom Vernon Cross lead. I met Darlene Cross and the majority of the tribe there. Andrew is indeed a Sun Dancer and adopted by Darlene's family. I personally met the family, Michael - Vernon's son and co-patriarch, Eric - Also Vernon's son and co-patriarch, and many others. Andrew pierces at the Sun Dance and does not claim any sort of official leadership in the ceremonies that is noticeable to a non-native. Andrew has never claimed to myself or others that I've met to lead Sun Dances or have any authority to do so. Darlene absolutely seems to trust and love Andrew from the interactions I've witnessed. I've stood in one of the Cross family homes and met nieces, cousins, brothers and sisters. They all seem to love and respect Andrew. Andrew refers to Darlene as "mom", Michael as his "brother", etc.. and this is accepted by the family. For all intents and purposes he is a member of their family from their demonstrated perspective and his own.

I am aware of Andrew working with men to provide retreats for western men interested in spirituality. The cost of these retreats and where the money goes, I have not asked nor do I care. I have heard mention similar to other posts here defending Andrew that much of the costs go to operating expenses, as the retreats are typically held in isolated and beautiful places owned by a specific family - the family is otherwise un-associated with Andrew.

I would suggest from my personal experience, if Vernon is considered legitimate, and if the Cross family on the Pinewood reservation and the Oglala are a respected Lakota tribe, then I can vouch for the legitimacy of Andrews adoption into the family and their deep respect for him, and thus Andrew should not be considered a fraud. Much of the speculation and misdirected assumptions in this thread are exactly that. People are posting here with preconceived notions and intentions not based in fact. If you really want to confirm Andrew's legitimacy, contact the Cross family directly! Michael has a phone, but the number I will not give out. I'd imagine other Lakota could find a way to contact the family, but I'm not too familiar with how in-touch other families are with each other on the reservation there.

To list Andrew in the confirmed fraud section based solely upon the *opinions* in this thread and unsupported arguments is a disservice to him, and to the credibility of this website. I do not see any confirmed proof beyond conjecture and arguments of Andrew being a fraud, and my own personal experiences suggest the complete opposite, so what does this website base its decisions upon? Irrational arguments and preconceived notions?

If Andrew Soliz is a fraud, then Vernon's surviving family is supporting this fraud wholeheartedly, and so is the Oglala Sioux tribe. This seems absolutely unlikely and absurd. Andrew's legitimacy can 100% be confirmed by actually doing the legwork to contact the cross family.

I mean no disrespect to other posters in this thread or this site, but what is posted in this thread attacking Andrew's reputation, and this thread being moved to confirmed frauds, absolutely hurts the credit of those accusers here and this website.

Edit: I wrote "Sacred Heart" when I meant to write "Alchemy of the Heart" for the website I mention.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: earthw7 on July 11, 2012, 01:52:18 pm
There is no Pinewood reservation. ::)
Vernon Cross died many years ago
Darlene cant make up her mind
i will not take the word of another non native
who has a idol worshipping problem
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: StudentofLife on July 11, 2012, 03:39:50 pm
Pine Ridge, my apologies for not correcting the mistake when I reread what I posted.

I am aware Vernon died and at no point did I suggest he is alive.

At this point you're demonstrating an irrational personal vendetta against a man you may or may not know. You're suggesting my personal account of experience with Andrew Soliz is invalid because 1) I mistyped Pine Ridge, and 2) because I'm not native? How many Oglala do you think are on the Internet right now googling Andrew? When I was there on their reservation it seemed few even had plumbing. They live in what has been degraded seemingly by the US Government policies into essentially a third world country. They are distraught. Darlene is supposed to jump online and defend Andrew from misinterpreted information? Where did you pull "idol worship"  from? Because I respect the man and have actual personal experience with his family and the Oglala, vs your complete and ill founded speculation?  Or, are you insulting my spiritual beliefs of which you know nothing?

You are literally trying to refute two personal eye witness accounts through biased speculation and irrational arguments. I'm not insulting you as a person, mind you, but in this thread it appears you are barely avoiding outright unjustified slander.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Smart Mule on July 11, 2012, 07:27:43 pm
Pine Ridge, my apologies for not correcting the mistake when I reread what I posted.

I am aware Vernon died and at no point did I suggest he is alive.

At this point you're demonstrating an irrational personal vendetta against a man you may or may not know. You're suggesting my personal account of experience with Andrew Soliz is invalid because 1) I mistyped Pine Ridge, and 2) because I'm not native? How many Oglala do you think are on the Internet right now googling Andrew? When I was there on their reservation it seemed few even had plumbing. They live in what has been degraded seemingly by the US Government policies into essentially a third world country. They are distraught. Darlene is supposed to jump online and defend Andrew from misinterpreted information? Where did you pull "idol worship"  from? Because I respect the man and have actual personal experience with his family and the Oglala, vs your complete and ill founded speculation?  Or, are you insulting my spiritual beliefs of which you know nothing?

You are literally trying to refute two personal eye witness accounts through biased speculation and irrational arguments. I'm not insulting you as a person, mind you, but in this thread it appears you are barely avoiding outright unjustified slander.

SoL,

I believe you owe earth an apology.  Have you bothered to read any of her many posts to these forums which indicate who she is and what community she is a MEMBER OF and LIVES IN?  She has every right to defend the traditions of her People.  Are LDN people supposed to leave the determination of the fate of their culture to well intentioned white people simply because of abject poverty? 
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: StudentofLife on July 11, 2012, 08:03:14 pm
Quote
SoL,

I believe you owe earth an apology.  Have you bothered to read any of her many posts to these forums which indicate who she is and what community she is a MEMBER OF and LIVES IN?  She has every right to defend the traditions of her People.  Are LDN people supposed to leave the determination of the fate of their culture to well intentioned white people simply because of abject poverty?

Read more: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=post;topic=3274.45;num_replies=59#ixzz20LTHlc00

I owe earth an apology because of her own statements? I have written nothing that is not factually true and based upon personal experience. I went so far as to state clearly I am not insulting earth as a person, but what she has written is inaccurate and logically flawed. I mean no disrespect to the posters on this site, the forum administration, the native people, or this site itself, but to list someone as a fraud without any evidence and pure conjecture is essentially slander.

At no point did I suggest she has no right to defend the traditions of her people. I did suggest no one has a right to accuse another of something such as fraud without evidence, and there is no evidence listed in this thread. This thread is incorrectly placed in "confirmed fraud" areas of this site, when there is nothing confirmed other than strong opinions of people whom read something online and have no real contact with the tribe in question or the person in question.

I am happy to answer any questions asked of me, but none were asked. Instead my entire post was dismissed by sky simply because I am not native and because I miswrote the name of the reservation.

Now, I'm being accused of a personal attack I did not make, when in reality, the perception I have is I am being personally attacked for defending the man. Why would I apologize for an insult I did not make and an offense that is made up?

If earth has a great reputation on this forum, awesome. However, her response to me was written poorly and included no substance. Again, this is not a personal attack on anyone. I am simply explaining the situation.

If there are other reasons Andrew is considered a fraud by the natives here, please I would absolutely implore you to explain as his spiritual guidance affects many, and many of these people are good people - including I think myself. I don't want anyone to be mislead in the least. However, the examples I see listing him as a fraud are: He works for a retreat and while working for a retreat he offers sweat lodges. He also offers sweats for free, without mention of money, off the retreat. His adoption is accused as being false, but the Cross family seems to think the adoption is real, as well as the Oglala tribe. Andrew does indeed dance at Sun Dance and is respected by the natives there so far as their behavior demonstrates.

I am happy to civilly discuss this, but the responses thus far come from a predisposition of minds already made up based upon inaccurate information. I still do not see any quoted texts of Andrew suggesting he is authorized to do anything in Vernal's name. Andrew has only stated in the quotes in this thread he has the permission of his adopted native family, the Cross family, to do what he does.. which is perform sweats and provide spiritual advice.

When I mentioned abject poverty it was in support of my argument that it's not realistic to expect someone from the Oglala tribe to jump on the internet to defend Andrew. How is the judgement of fraud against him supposed to be fair in any way when the conclusion is based on nothing but a retreat he works with over charging for medicine bags?
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on July 11, 2012, 09:38:13 pm

1. I was referred to Andrew by a well respected and trustworthy friend of mine in Los Angeles.

2. My understanding of what Andrew does with the often referenced site "Alchemy of the Heart" is sort of a contracted work type gig. The website is not managed by him and he does not own the company from what I've gathered. It seems the sort of situation where the organisation hires Andrew as their spiritual guru and while Andrew is at their retreats he gives advice, performs services, and offers sweats. This may be a "loop hole" for in a way technically having sweats paid for, but not by Andrews design. Attendees seem to pay Alchemy of the Heart for the retreats, and Andrew happens to also offer Sweats at these retreats while there.

3. I have not personally attended one of these retreats though, I've only spoken with many who have and are involved with Andrew. The sweats I attended at Andrews home are absolutely free and money is not mentioned. Donations are not even mentioned, but when asked Andrew will point out a little donation container where someone could put any amount if they so chose. However, again, I do not have personal experience with these retreats and this is only what I've "gathered" in researching and through overheard conversations. If you want to discredit this first paragraph then that's fine, I'd understand.

4. Regarding Sun Dances, I recently attended a Sun Dance in South Dakota with Andrew and the Oglala Sioux tribe, whom Vernon Cross lead. I met Darlene Cross and the majority of the tribe there. Andrew is indeed a Sun Dancer and adopted by Darlene's family. I personally met the family, Michael - Vernon's son and co-patriarch, Eric - Also Vernon's son and co-patriarch, and many others. Andrew pierces at the Sun Dance and does not claim any sort of official leadership in the ceremonies that is noticeable to a non-native. Andrew has never claimed to myself or others that I've met to lead Sun Dances or have any authority to do so. Darlene absolutely seems to trust and love Andrew from the interactions I've witnessed. I've stood in one of the Cross family homes and met nieces, cousins, brothers and sisters. They all seem to love and respect Andrew. Andrew refers to Darlene as "mom", Michael as his "brother", etc.. and this is accepted by the family. For all intents and purposes he is a member of their family from their demonstrated perspective and his own.

5. I am aware of Andrew working with men to provide retreats for western men interested in spirituality. The cost of these retreats and where the money goes, I have not asked nor do I care. {Al's note:Bolding is mine] I have heard mention similar to other posts here defending Andrew that much of the costs go to operating expenses, as the retreats are typically held in isolated and beautiful places owned by a specific family - the family is otherwise un-associated with Andrew.

6. I would suggest from my personal experience, if Vernon is considered legitimate, and if the Cross family on the Pinewood reservation and the Oglala are a respected Lakota tribe, then I can vouch for the legitimacy of Andrews adoption into the family and their deep respect for him, and thus Andrew should not be considered a fraud.

7. Much of the speculation and misdirected assumptions in this thread are exactly that. People are posting here with preconceived notions and intentions not based in fact. If you really want to confirm Andrew's legitimacy, contact the Cross family directly! Michael has a phone, but the number I will not give out. I'd imagine other Lakota could find a way to contact the family, but I'm not too familiar with how in-touch other families are with each other on the reservation there.

8. To list Andrew in the confirmed fraud section based solely upon the *opinions* in this thread and unsupported arguments is a disservice to him, and to the credibility of this website.

9. I do not see any confirmed proof beyond conjecture and arguments of Andrew being a fraud, and my own personal experiences suggest the complete opposite, so what does this website base its decisions upon? Irrational arguments and preconceived notions?

10. If Andrew Soliz is a fraud, then Vernon's surviving family is supporting this fraud wholeheartedly,

11. and so is the Oglala Sioux tribe. This seems absolutely unlikely and absurd.

12. Andrew's legitimacy can 100% be confirmed by actually doing the legwork to contact the cross family.

13. I mean no disrespect to other posters in this thread or this site, but what is posted in this thread attacking Andrew's reputation, and this thread being moved to confirmed frauds, absolutely hurts the credit of those accusers here and this website.

Edit: I wrote "Sacred Heart" when I meant to write "Alchemy of the Heart" for the website I mention.

Hello,
I added numbers to make it clearer what I am replying to.

1. You do not name this person. Why?

2. You understand incorrectly. If you had bothered to actually read the thread, you'd see the site is owned by Soliz and his wife.

3. False. If you had bothered to actually read the thread, the website owned by Soliz clearly says payment required in advance.

4. False. You clearly are lying here. Like Earth pointed out, Cross died some years back.

Again...If you had bothered to actually read the thread, you'd see his widow Darlene has specifically said her husband did not authorize anyone.

Again...If you had bothered to actually read the thread, you'd see that Soliz has consistently refused to answer when asked why he lies about being authorized when Darlene Cross says otherwise.

5. The fact you openly say you don't care that ceremonies are being sold says volumes. You clearly understand as little about Native ceremony as every other member of Soliz's circle that has come here.

6. False. Once again, If you had bothered to actually read the thread...you'd have seen the evidence and would not be making one false statement after another.

7. False. The only falsehoods, speculation, and misdirected assumptions being made in here are by you. Once again...If you had bothered to actually read the thread, you would not be looking either foolish or a liar.

8. False. The only disservice being done in here is by you. You defend him without knowing anything, without bothering to look at the evidence right in front of your face.

Are you always this lazy in your spiritual search?

If you had bothered to actually read the thread...

9. You don't see any because you were too lazy to look. That seems to be typical of every last Soliz defender so far.

If you had bothered to actually read the thread...

10. But they are not. Darlene specifically says NO ONE was authorized by her husband and anyone claiming otherwise is lying.

If you had bothered to actually read the thread...

11. It is absurd. Simply because it is not true. And you would know that...If you had bothered to actually read the thread.

12. We did the work. You did not. You were so incredibly lazy you could not read what was inches from your face.

If you had bothered to actually read the thread...

13. Actually you did quite a bit of disrespect. You did that disrespect the first time you convinced yourself  that pay to pray was not that, simply because it was done indirectly.

You were being disrespectful when you attended that stereotypical mockery of Native culture Soliz has in his home. Playing Indian in a tipi in a backyard is not just disrespectful but racist. It's like a kid playing dressup on Halloween. But a small child has an excuse. What is yours?

You were being disrespectful when you said you did not care if Soliz sells ceremony in his men's retreats.

You were being disrespectful when you made lots of unfounded accusations in here with no evidence.

And finally you were being quite disrespectful when you insulted Earth, and then went on to smear her for another very long post yet again.

You are banned from posting for one week. But you can still login and contact people by IM.

Contact the mods by IM or earth by IM. You need to think about your insults, lack of respect, scattershot accusations, smears, personal attacks, and general immaturity.

If you can be more adult and less insulting, and actually know what you're talking about by bothering to read before leveling false accusations, then the ban will be lifted.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on July 11, 2012, 09:44:57 pm

I owe earth an apology because of her own statements? I have written nothing that is not factually true and based upon personal experience. I went so far as to state clearly I am not insulting earth as a person, but what she has written is inaccurate and logically flawed. I mean no disrespect to the posters on this site, the forum administration, the native people, or this site itself, but to list someone as a fraud without any evidence and pure conjecture is essentially slander.

At no point did I suggest she has no right to defend the traditions of her people. I did suggest no one has a right to accuse another of something such as fraud without evidence, and there is no evidence listed in this thread. This thread is incorrectly placed in "confirmed fraud" areas of this site, when there is nothing confirmed other than strong opinions of people whom read something online and have no real contact with the tribe in question or the person in question.

I am happy to answer any questions asked of me, but none were asked. Instead my entire post was dismissed by sky simply because I am not native and because I miswrote the name of the reservation.

Now, I'm being accused of a personal attack I did not make, when in reality, the perception I have is I am being personally attacked for defending the man. Why would I apologize for an insult I did not make and an offense that is made up?

If earth has a great reputation on this forum, awesome. However, her response to me was written poorly and included no substance. Again, this is not a personal attack on anyone. I am simply explaining the situation.

If there are other reasons Andrew is considered a fraud by the natives here, please I would absolutely implore you to explain as his spiritual guidance affects many, and many of these people are good people - including I think myself. I don't want anyone to be mislead in the least. However, the examples I see listing him as a fraud are: He works for a retreat and while working for a retreat he offers sweat lodges. He also offers sweats for free, without mention of money, off the retreat. His adoption is accused as being false, but the Cross family seems to think the adoption is real, as well as the Oglala tribe. Andrew does indeed dance at Sun Dance and is respected by the natives there so far as their behavior demonstrates.

I am happy to civilly discuss this, but the responses thus far come from a predisposition of minds already made up based upon inaccurate information. I still do not see any quoted texts of Andrew suggesting he is authorized to do anything in Vernal's name. Andrew has only stated in the quotes in this thread he has the permission of his adopted native family, the Cross family, to do what he does.. which is perform sweats and provide spiritual advice.

When I mentioned abject poverty it was in support of my argument that it's not realistic to expect someone from the Oglala tribe to jump on the internet to defend Andrew. How is the judgement of fraud against him supposed to be fair in any way when the conclusion is based on nothing but a retreat he works with over charging for medicine bags?

Talk about willful blindness...

Is there any reason not to delete this whole insulting, disrespectful,ignorant, lying mess? Outside of making it clear exactly why he was banned.

SOL (talk about an unfortunate choice of initials), that apology is still necessary. You need to come in here with less a sense of entitlement and attack mode.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: earthw7 on July 12, 2012, 02:52:26 pm
Pine Ridge, my apologies for not correcting the mistake when I reread what I posted.

I am aware Vernon died and at no point did I suggest he is alive.

At this point you're demonstrating an irrational personal vendetta against a man you may or may not know. You're suggesting my personal account of experience with Andrew Soliz is invalid because 1) I mistyped Pine Ridge, and 2) because I'm not native? How many Oglala do you think are on the Internet right now googling Andrew? When I was there on their reservation it seemed few even had plumbing. They live in what has been degraded seemingly by the US Government policies into essentially a third world country. They are distraught. Darlene is supposed to jump online and defend Andrew from misinterpreted information? Where did you pull "idol worship"  from? Because I respect the man and have actual personal experience with his family and the Oglala, vs your complete and ill founded speculation?  Or, are you insulting my spiritual beliefs of which you know nothing?

You are literally trying to refute two personal eye witness accounts through biased speculation and irrational arguments. I'm not insulting you as a person, mind you, but in this thread it appears you are barely avoiding outright unjustified slander.

SoL,

I believe you owe earth an apology.  Have you bothered to read any of her many posts to these forums which indicate who she is and what community she is a MEMBER OF and LIVES IN?  She has every right to defend the traditions of her People.  Are LDN people supposed to leave the determination of the fate of their culture to well intentioned white people simply because of abject poverty? 

I will apologize to you, it has been a long week, today is my anniversry of my son death and i get a little out of hand and say things i should not because my heart is hurt.
On the Other hand I am a warrior first for the people, my nation and my lway of life. I live on my reservation I have Oglala blood, my family the Fast Wolf's and Randall comes from the Wanbli area, but i live on the Standing Rock Reservation. I do my best to live my culture everyday as my parent and grandparents, Yes i do not take your words as truth because you are non native using my way of life like you owe it,you did not not read the proclamation that says NO NON INDIAN SHOULD LEAD INIPIS (SWEAT LODGE) with your friend leading our ceremonies he is in violation of our proclamation. At NO Time EVER has anyone ever been adopted a person into a Tribal Nation only a family can adopt and that does not mean that person has any right to ceremonies of our people, they can attend them but not teach our ways. I understand life on the reservation as well as my history and our social standing among the capitalist. Wow you are worried about our plumping when people are stealing our way of life, What are you saying because my people are poor it is al right to steal our ways?? We are degraded and distraught? That is not what i see from my eyes. Which Oglalas? You make it sound like you have the whole nation backing you but i know my people and you do not. Today since Vernon death we have a whole list of whiteman who go around claiming that have some sort of right to take our ceremonies, one man does not have the right to give away our nation rights. Please understand that i position is not to attack a person but to attack the abuse of my culture
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on July 13, 2012, 03:57:28 pm
SoL emailed an apology and further questions. I'm posting it below followed by my answer to him.

----------

Dear Administrators,

My username on your forums is "Student of Life" and I was recently banned for a week because I was insensitive in the tone and language used when arguing in defense of Andrew Soliz. I must absolutely apologize for my indiscretions in the manner I approached this subject and in which I responded to Earth's posts. My intentions meant no ill will, however I am not accustomed to these types of discussions and as you have suggested, my cultural understanding of your background and point of view is limited.

I was told I was banned but could still IM, but if by IM you mean private messages on the forum, the forum tells me this is not allowed. If by IM you meant using earth's profile information to add her to AIM or Yahoo chat, these are services I don't yet use.

The subject of Andrew Soliz as a fraud is very important to me, as he provides spiritual advice to myself and many others I've met who seem like genuinely well intentioned and good people in their society. I do not want anyone hurt by the actions of a fraud. I have a couple questions about your native tradition I'm hoping you may find time to answer in an effort to better understand why Andrew is considered a fraud.

I did read the entire thread but as, like you suggest, I am very ignorant of your ways, there are aspects I'm not quite "getting".

Primarily, is it the case where if the Cross family from the Oglala tribe properly adopted Andrew into their family, is it the case he would still without argument be unauthorized to perform the sweat lodge ceremony, even if the Cross family approved of him doing so? I understand you are saying based in Darlenes statements the family has not done so, but I need to understand is it culturally forbidden for an adopted Oglala and/or Lakota in general to perform sweats regardless of family approval?

Andrew tells us he is now a pipe carrier, is there any way this could be true of an adopted Lakota?

Again I apologize for my previous rash tone and conclusions, and for any insults I unintentionally bestowed on other respected members of this forum, including earth. I do honestly want to understand why Andrew is considered a fraud, and it seems my thick head couldn't figure it out from the evidence posted.

Again, I'm wondering if it is absolutely not allowed for an adopted Lakota to be a pipe carrier and lead sweats, even if they were theoretically given permission by the surviving Cross family?

Another point I don't understand is the statement that Vernon did not authorize anyone, but both of his sons Michael and Eric lead a Sundance in what they say to us is a "combined alter". If Vernon did not pass anything on, does this entail his children are not authorized to do what they do? I'm not making an argument in this question, I'm sincerely asking to help my understanding.

I have watched Andrew greet Darlene as "Mom" and refer to their family as his own in front of them. I have watched Andrew Pierce and dance at Sun Dance, but are you suggesting if this is true, what he does in his personal life may be unauthorized and hidden from the family? It is hard for me to understand how the family would seem so accepting of Andrew if they knew he was performing unauthorized ceremonies.

I absolutely and sincerely would appreciate the answers to these questions and your patience in dealing with my lack of understanding and insensitivities. I mean no ill will and only hope to help others by understanding.

Thank you,
SoL

--------
Hello,
I accept you at your word when you tell me of your good intentions.

It was my mistake not realizing that blocking posting also blocks IMs. I'll forward the message below to the other mods and Earth. And I will also post these emails and lift the ban.

Adoption into a family never gives one any supposed right to perform ceremony. Lakota traditions says one must be not only Lakota and raised in the community but also fluent in the language. On all three counts Soliz has no right to do Lakota ceremony. Most tribes have similar requirements, and all regard the sale of any ceremony as deeply offensive, crass, and making the ceremony useless. Donations, unprompted and unpressured, are allowed. Having a set price is not.

Darlene's public statement is that Vernon did not pass on authorization to anyone, period.

We have asked Soliz several times, as well as his followers, to clarify, get a statement from Darlene or any other Cross family member. Soliz and followers abruptly go quiet and don't answer when pressed on the question.

Al Carroll, moderator.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Defend the Sacred on July 13, 2012, 05:06:55 pm
SOL, you need to get up to speed on community standards, and community realities. I think we became frustrated with you because you kept saying, "Where's the information?" when the information is all over this site. You said, "Where are the Lakota?" when we have a number of respected Lakota who post here and work with us. I think you fell for some non-Native's lie that NDN people are not online. There is actually a thriving community of Native people from the reservations who communicate via social networking. A recent study showed NDNs have adopted social media more than any other ethnic minority in the US.

You have an opportunity here. This is not a forum of random strangers - this is an established network of Native people and allies, many of whom have known one another for decades, and who work together in person to protect ceremony and culture. There is a lot of information here if you will commit to doing your own heavy lifting, if you read and listen with an open mind. And as I think you are aware now, you are the new person to an established community; it is your responsibility to introduce yourself, behave politely, and learn; we can't start over and educate every new person from scratch. Please read this thread: The Do's and Don'ts of Being a Good Ally: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2365.0

I suggest you read the pinned threads in all the sections, and the pages about Protection of Ceremony on the main website: http://newagefraud.com

Here's some explanation about adoption among the Lakota and related Nations: Adoption Ceremonies http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1294.0
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: educatedindian on August 02, 2012, 04:30:38 pm
Rita Robinson, a reporter for the Laguna Independent, contact me yesterday. We spoke on the phone twice, for over a half hour altogether. I'm more than a little discouraged after talking to her.

I submitted a guest column to the paper about a month ago. They have yet to run it. The paper has at least half a dozen articles on Soliz, mostly supportive and falsely accusing his neighbors of being racists and naively taking his word for it about his claims.

Robinson openly admitted to being very sympathetic to Soliz. "What's the harm?" And she said she had personally paid for ceremonies she believed to be Indian, though she didn't give any more details. I tried patiently explaining the basics about Native traditions and exploitation to her, but I don't think she understood. At this point my only hope is she uses some quotes of mine that might get through to people.

Robinson says the paper might use "details" of my guest column, but no word on when or if they will ever publish it. The city has a request from Soliz for a permit to build a permanent knockoff of a sweatlodge. The paper did contact local NDN communities. At least one wrote me asking for more information and saying they don't approve of Soliz as he's an outsider doing ceremony in their traditional homelands. We'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: tecpaocelotl on August 09, 2012, 05:20:07 am
What about sending your concerns to the city?
Title: Re: Andrew Soliz
Post by: Superdog on August 09, 2012, 01:31:40 pm
Checked on an older post of mine.

Some of the prices have changed for some of Soliz's services/products....but they still remain rather audacious.


Here are the "spirit medicine bags" (including a phone session with Andrew) now priced at $300-$900 (old price was $1200-$1800)
http://www.alchemyoftheheart.net/alchemy_of_the_heart_medicine_bags.html

The alchemyoftheheart.net site is still filled with "sell sell sell" impulse writing.  Hard to count the number of times Andrew calls himself "internationally renowned ceremonial leader and healer".....or things along that line.

For folks coming to defend him.  I won't attack your perception of him.  I will simply say that when someone is selling workshops, retreats, sessions that include "Native American ceremony" as one of the selling points....it's bothersome.  Soliz is only following ways of an adopted Lakota (badly...because he should've learned that he cannot represent himself as Lakota anything....he's simply adopted and that only gives him rights to participate in Lakota ceremonies...not create and sell his own).  But as has been stated over and over and over on this site....there are over 500 nations on the continent, each with their own ways, languages and customs.  This man only presents one aspect of that yet sells it with the generic blanket term "Native American".  That's the first flag that something is wrong and it bothers someone like me....a Native who's not Lakota.....who has to continually wade through eugenic stereotypes on a daily basis from other non-Natives who learn from bad teachers like Soliz.

The medicine bags posted above is only ONE example out of many that make me cringe.  For those that have bought services off of Andrew ask yourself something:  If a complete stranger told you, if you paid their fee, they could solve your problems by listening to you talk about them on the phone and then giving you a small bag filled with stuff he found outside....would you pay this man?  Why does the fact that this man says (himself only) that he's a "renowned healer and ceremonial leader" with "Native American ceremonies" seem to make this prospect actually sound plausible?

The term I like to use for those that would impulse others into buying anything ceremonial is "commercial spirituality".  Basically the idea that your level of spirituality coordinates to how much you can afford.  Keep in mind, that when Andrew goes to sundance and goes to the people that he says make him legitimate enough to sell their ceremonies....he isn't asked to pay them for it....yet he asks you for money...

Something to think about...

Superdog