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Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: Epiphany on May 09, 2011, 07:54:05 pm

Title: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Epiphany on May 09, 2011, 07:54:05 pm
Quote
In the Entertainment Weekly article, Depp also brought up his belief that he has Native blood, which he has mentioned in the past. “My great grandmother was quite a bit of Native American,” he said. “She grew up Cherokee or maybe Creek Indian. Makes sense in terms of coming from Kentucky, which is rife with Cherokee and Creek.” For Depp, his heritage gives the Tonto role an added personal dimension. “If you find out you’ve got Native American blood, which a lot of people do,” he told Entertainment Weekly, “you think about where it comes from and go back and read the great books, Dee Brown’s Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee or [John Ehle's] Trail of Tears, you have to think, somewhere along the line, I’m the product of some horrific rape. You just have that little sliver in your chemical makeup.

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/05/johnny-depps-tonto-may-take-the-lead-in-new-lone-ranger-movie (http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/05/johnny-depps-tonto-may-take-the-lead-in-new-lone-ranger-movie)/

Why doesn't he know his actual genealogy?

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Epiphany on May 09, 2011, 08:25:14 pm
Johnny Depp, Cherokee?

http://newspaperrock.bluecorncomics.com/2008/09/johnny-depp-cherokee.html (http://newspaperrock.bluecorncomics.com/2008/09/johnny-depp-cherokee.html)
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: tecpaocelotl on May 10, 2011, 02:23:08 am
Why is Johnny Depp getting the part of Tonto?
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Epiphany on May 10, 2011, 07:48:09 pm
If I worked up his genealogy correctly through public records on ancestry.com - his people are all listed as white in census, nobody tribal enrolled. Depp has claimed that a maternal great-grandmother was Cherokee, I don't see any verification of that.

Bothers me that on one hand his heritage isn't  important enough to him to research but on the other hand it is important enough to him to claim he has Cherokee ancestry and is therefore okay for the role of Tonto.

Depp could very easily find out who his people are, if he hasn't already. Records are all available and we're not talking way back in the mists of time, this is a recent generation he is claiming.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on May 11, 2011, 04:54:27 pm
The thought came to me quite a while ago that Disney has a problem: a "Frontierland" with no NDNs. This is important to them not only in the US, but also in Europe and Japan.

It looks to me like Disney, being the first class organization that it is, decided to re-make "The Long Ranger" with Tonto to solve that problem.

I don't know, does everyone here agree that Tonto is a good Native American character? And thus would make a good role model for young people as well?

(Personally, I thought a nightly festive powwow in Frontierland could have earned Disney a whole whole lot of money, and I still do, and it could provide work for many Native American actors and actresses, dancers, and musicians. I even had the spot for the dance circle picked out - the little space in front of "Thunder Mountain". All I want is 1/2 of 1% of the frybread and buffalo stick sales...)

Depp is one of the finest actors of his generation, and generally any work he does has quality, and thus box office draw. He already has good experience with Disney with the "Pirates of the Caribbean" series.

Of course, Dustin Hoffman in "Little Big Man" proved (at least to me) that a European actor could deliver a Native worldview, and it looks like Depp decided to play the Tonto role that way.

The problem Disney now has is finding an actor strong enough to play The Lone Ranger against Depp's Tonto.

It is sad that Depp thinks that his ancestry came from rape, and that may explain why he never looked into it further.

I suppose that if Disney can find its Lone Ranger, then Depp will study for the Tonto role. A strange path -  I suppose that if his heritage turns out to be true, someone will have to give Depp the diabetes warning.

What a different world we would live in if the Colonel (reported to have been a fugitive Nazi war cirminal) had not told Elvis to shut up talking about his Cherokee heritage.

The pieces start to fall into place.

(You personally may find my views annoying - please allow me to mention that spanning the two worlds is difficult for anyone, and more difficult with the
effects of diabetic stroke. Composing this post has been an exercise for me, trying to collect my thoughts before I face the rest of the day. And it is going to be a long night.)


Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Freija on May 14, 2011, 09:08:25 am
Depp does a lot of charity work, but mostly "incognito". Like helping and supporting Native American Youths. Many Native kids are very talented in the fields of art and acting but due to the costs, most of them would never have the opportunity to pursue their careers. Until now. I think Johnny Depp´s choice not to give much info about his ancestry might  be because he knows what the tabloids are like. From what he does "off screen" I think he probably knows more about it than he says.

A friend of mine works in the filmindustry in Hollywood. In her opinion (having worked with him) Depp is not only an amazing actor but a wonderful, humble guy with a heart of gold. But he is also very private and shy. He honors his ancestors the best way he can - in private and in silence. Noone´s business but his own  ;)

Aaaaaand that was the end of the Hollywood gossip for today  ;D
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on May 15, 2011, 08:59:04 pm
What a diverse group of NDNs had to say about it: http://www.nativeamericacalling.com/nac_past.shtml

Story starts at about 5:57

Tuesday, January 18, 2011– Win Johnny Depp!: (listen (http://www.nativeamericacalling.com/ram/2011/jan/011811.m3u))
'Rumors are circulating that a new movie will soon be made about “The Lone Ranger and Tonto,” and that Johnny Depp is slated to play Tonto. These rumors also proclaim that in order to prepare for his role as Tonto, Depp plans to live on a yet-to-be-determined Indian reservation. But why isn't one of our great Native actors playing Tonto? On the other hand, what would some of the economic benefits be of having Depp live on your reservation for a short period of time? And if he's really serious about playing Tonto, what day-to-day experiences and cultural practices should Depp go through in order to really get the hang of being Tonto?'


My thoughts: Depp is a very talented actor, and his clout in the film industry is undeniable. But if Depp's politics are so good, rather than participate in a paintdown, he could use this influence to demand that Natives play Natives. He could direct or produce. He could produce a film and hire a Native director. He could play one of the non-Native roles in the film, or the role of person who thinks they maybe sorta might just have some Native heritage somewhere back there... uh, like, probably Cherokee, y'know. He could do a satire and play a confused seeker or a pretendian. All sorts of options that don't rely on yet another non-Native playing a Native.

Why not cast Depp as The Lone Ranger and hire a Native actor to play Tonto? Is Johnny Depp as "ethnic" as Disney is willing to go? Then maybe Depp should give Disney a polite "no" on this movie.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: tecpaocelotl on May 16, 2011, 05:44:27 am
I'm assuming he got his role since he played a native in The Brave.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: OneRed on August 05, 2011, 07:52:58 am
You know sometimes people just deal with their issues differently than others and maybe his ancestry is pretty painful for him to bother with it. I know there have been times in my life, where I shouldn't have went looking for things, did and it ended up causing me more pain. And he probably doesn't want the media to have a field day with it, I know I wouldn't, especially if what he says is true. And especially since there's so many crazy people out there that would be harassing him like mad, "oh give me money" .. you know how it goes and maybe the reason he's been so quiet about it up until the past few years is because he might have been type casted ... and we see a lot of that with our native actors all the time. Look at the Baker Twins  and Irene Bedard as an example, they have to take on other ethnic roles to get work sometimes, they were talking about this on Tyra Banks' show. And you think about all the other famous people that we are now learning are native or have some native blood, would they have gotten where they were if they had said they were native? My guess is probably not, since we know how much native racism exists in not only hollywood, but in every day life.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 08, 2012, 07:47:46 pm
http://nativeappropriations.blogspot.com/2012/03/johnny-depp-as-cultural-appropriation.html

Johnny Depp as Cultural Appropriation Jack Sparrow...I mean Tonto.

"The Tonto costume is a mish-mash of stereotypical Indian garb, a Plains-style breastplate with a southwest-style headband (minus the effing bird), random feathers and beads--but the face paint that makes him look evil, forlorn, and angry all at once is a nice touch. Then, the fact that the publicity photo shows the "wild" and "unruly" (ok, I'll say it, "savage") Tonto behind the clean, polished, (and white) Lone Ranger is a great "honoring" to Native people too, and shows how much agency Tonto has, right? (/sarcasm)

"You guys, I'm pissed off. Like for real. I had a teensy-tiny bit of hope that this wouldn't be another othering-stereotype-filled-horror, but clearly I was so wrong. This movie has a budget of like $215 million. That big of a budget, and you couldn't have hired a Native consultant, or shoot--even asked  a Native person from the community you're purporting to represent (Tonto's Apache, right?) what the character should look like?"

Read whole post (It's an excellent one) (http://nativeappropriations.blogspot.com/2012/03/johnny-depp-as-cultural-appropriation.html)

I'm pissed off, too. All the talented Native actors, and this is what happens. It doesn't matter if Depp's weird fantasies of "Cherokee.. or maybe Creek" ancestors way way back turns out to be true. This is offensive no matter where his blood comes from. If he had any actual connection to Native cultures he would know this was wrong and would stop it. This is inexcusable.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on March 09, 2012, 04:33:54 pm
"The name "Tonto" is considered offensive by some, due to its etymology — it comes from the Spanish word for "stupid". However, the name has mostly stuck and is widely used by most people outside of the Western Apache community. The term Tonto is most frequently encountered in anthropology literature, especially older works."

If I were looking for a backstory, I would make "Tonto" the last surviving member of a pueblo nation that was killed off for its silver, first by the Spanish, then by miners. That would account for the Lone Ranger's silver bullets, and would make a great ride for Disney - The Lost Silver Mine. The powwow grounds could be adjacent, the whole part of Frontierland.

(So the way it is coming to my mind is an attack by conquistadors, followed by a plague, followed by an attack by the Mexican Army (even the Mexicans did not like the aristocrats), followed by the miners... Disney ends up with a "lost city" to add to their ride, along with more "scary" skeletons.)

The attack by the miners would come when Tonto was 9 or 10 years old, and after their genocidal attack he would kill them all with their own dynamite.

I would have Tonto then live with the Apache, hence his name. So Depp's dress needs to be worked on a lot - it needs pueblo influences, IMO.  We have been shown a war dress which is not correct, but its early in production and there's a long way to go. This should be his Last Guardian of his People's lands dress.

We have not seen Depp in daily dress yet, and that is more important, though I suppose that will be Silverhill's deerskins.

Since Tonto is not Apache, he then wanders back west to guard his people's lands, which look something like the northern Cochino National Forest. That way you get desert, plains, forest, and mountain.

And Texas Rangers.

In any case, the actor who plays the Lone Ranger is disposable to the property, as there can be multiple "Lone Rangers" who Tonto selects: The Lone Ranger dies, and Tonto "selects" and trains another one.

This is a movie, folks, though a very very important one to Native America.
We'll have to await word from the Hollywood Native American actors.

Its too bad that the way the film industry works, but there is a need for a big name to get funding, This is just the beginning, and there's still a lot of work to be done...

We'll have to see if Depp is a great enough actor to pull off the role. He is following in Jay Silverheel's footsteps... Just as Superman still has to be Superman, Native America youth still have to be able to see one of themselves on the Big Screen, or this is not going to work...

In any case, it is clear that Depp still needs to work things out as concerns his family, as this bears on his psychological state to play this role. Please keep in mind that PODIA are referred to as "breeds" in the Old South, hence their desire to use the more elegant French term "meti". (with apologies to the Canadian Meti. It's too bad about Elvis and "Colonel Parker" (yeah, in the SS).

I don't know why this matter has grabbed my attention... but it has.
(There are 2 12 year olds and a 7 year old waiting for my visit today...
I have to set this down. Have to...)

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on March 09, 2012, 05:38:13 pm
This is a persistent thought. (its still with me.)

I never saw "The Brave", and that should be an indicator... not a good sign

Depp will need muscle padding in his deerskins and lifts in his moccasins.
If he physically can't fill Jay Silverhill's moccasins, there are Native American actors who can.

Depp will see the dailies, and if he can't pull the role off, then perhaps he should move to assistant director or some such.

As far as his dress for as last guardian of his peoples' lands, and the savior and trainer of the Lone Ranger, he will need Navajo influences. Anyone else here think that he needs a large raven for his headdress, and needs to adjust his face paint?

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on March 09, 2012, 09:54:07 pm
Still with me...

Tonto needs to be able to influence good people away from his peoples' lands, help travelers on their way, and scare off bad people, or feed their bodies to mountain lions.

This thought is sticking with me, keeping me from my work.
I suppose we will all see how it works out...
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on March 12, 2012, 06:13:36 pm
Saturday morning, it was the entry line to the ride, with animatronic mountain lions in a pit, and animatronic birds above at excarnation stone platforms or maybe wood platforms. And the ruins of Tonto's no longer inhabited pueblo somewhere along the way, either on entrance or exit. A play area like Tom Sawyer's island

Saturday evening was looking at one of Disney's earlier efforts, "Squanto" with a limited review audience. "Squanto" was married, which took the fantasy off of him for young women, and there was not enough "action" for young men. While "Squanto" got an "alright" to "okay" rating. the generic powwow songs and dances fascinated.

It seems likely to me that the "Sqaunto" film project was hatched during Disney's "America" theme park period. Naturally the history was abysmal. The "bad guys" were English nobles, as in "Pirates of the Caribbean".

"Squanto" clearly showed the limitations of audience sensitivities in which Disney has to work. But murdering bank robbers should make acceptable bad guys.

Back in the real world, this was my first field trip to the Fox River region, where one of the nearby major ceremonial complexes is "privately owned".

Thoughts on this have passed for now.







Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on March 13, 2012, 11:19:59 pm
They're back again -

One of the big pluses for "Squanto" was his ability to "speak" with different animals, so no doubt "Tonto" will be able to do the same.

Jay Silverheel's "Tonto" was older than Depp. something of a father figure, and in my opinion Depp is too young to  play "Tonto" in that way.

Depp is a good enough actor to judge his own performance in the dailies.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 14, 2012, 07:25:06 pm
Ryan McMahon Gets Angry #4 - I Ain't Gettin' On No Horse

"Hey, Johnny Depp - There's A Crow In Your Hair?!?!?" (language warning)

http://soundcloud.com/rmcomedy/ryan-mcmahon-gets-angry-4
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on April 14, 2012, 03:41:06 pm
For some reason this morning the thought came to me to check up on "The Lone Ranger.

Depp working hard on role:

http://collider.com/johnny-depp-the-lone-ranger-image/159100/

locations:
http://http://www.chieftain.com/business/creede-s-eyes-widen-over-big-budget-film/article_405f8410-792e-11e1-980c-0019bb2963f4.html

special effects:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsmoviecricket/53755592-66/age-casting-18-60-agency.html.csp

plot? Chinese slaved silver miners? (Disney Asian market?):
http://www.alamosanews.com/v2_news_articles.php?heading=0&page=74&story_id=24165

casting call:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=960&sid=19836113

Time setting:
http://www.holyokeenterprise.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5120:deaver-gun-to-hit-the-big-screen&catid=34:local-news&Itemid=34

Too baggy, IMO:
http://blog.screenweek.it/2012/04/the-lone-ranger-una-nuova-foto-del-ranger-solitario-armie-hammer-173349.php

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on April 14, 2012, 03:46:49 pm
The way I remember the Lone Ranger is that his muscles nearly tore apart his clothing.

And how it is going?:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/27/armie-hammer-mirror-mirror-the-lone-ranger_n_1382926.html?ref=entertainment

Budget: Anybody got a spare $50 Mil to play with?:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturenews/9161066/John-Carter-flop-will-have-long-term-consequences.html

Dark Horizons probably has more on the last item.

More on settings, and setting things straight:
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20587023,00.html

Anyone there going to show them what an 1869 Navaho blanket looked like?

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on April 24, 2012, 08:49:32 pm
Another excellent piece from Adrienne at Native Appropriations. Here's an excerpt, but please check out the whole thing:

http://nativeappropriations.blogspot.com/2012/04/johnny-depp-as-tonto-im-still-not.html
*******************************************************************

I say all this to establish the "credibility" of Johnny Depp's source material. But Depp's descriptions of why he was so drawn to the piece are even worse. On the striped make-up representing the "separate sections of the individual":

    “There’s this very wise quarter, a very tortured and hurt section, and angry and rageful section, and a very understanding and unique side. I saw these parts, almost like dissecting a brain, these slivers of the individual. That makeup inspired me.”

Because Tonto happens to be Native American, he has to be "wise," "tortured and hurt," "angry and rageful," and "very understanding and unique"? That's like Hollywood Indian Stereotypes 101.  Finally, on the hideous crow headdress itself:

    “It just so happened Sattler had painted a bird flying directly behind the warrior’s head. It looked to me like it was sitting on top. I thought: Tonto’s got a bird on his head. It’s his spirit guide in a way. It’s dead to others, but it’s not dead to him. It’s very much alive...The whole reason I wanted to play Tonto is to try to [mess] around with the stereotype of the American Indian that has been laid out through history, or the history of cinema at the very least — especially Tonto as the sidekick, The Lone Ranger’s assistant...As you’ll see, it’s most definitely not that.”

Right. So, I like the calling of the subject in the painting a "warrior," based solely on the fact that he is Native and male (stereotype #1). Of course the "warrior" has to have a "spirit guide" (stereotype #2), and has a mystical connection that outsiders cannot understand--"It's dead to others, but it's not dead to him" (stereotype #3). I think, Mr. Depp, when you said you hoped to "mess around with the stereotype of the American Indian," you actually meant "completely play into the stereotype of the American Indian," because I'm really not seeing anything subversive or new about your language or this mess of a portrayal. If this is your "salute" to Native Americans, I'm really afraid to watch the actual movie. Also, since we haven't seen a clip of the film yet, it remains to be seen if Depp will talk in the stereotypical broken-english "Tonto speak." Let's hope he drew the line somewhere.

What we have here is a case of an extreme mis-match between intent and impact. Johnny Depp might have entered this project with the nobelest of intentions, hoping to "honor" his heritage, "re-invent" the role of Natives in Hollywood, give Tonto more agency and move him from his sidekick status--but he went about it in exactly the wrong way. I don't know what the right way would have been, perhaps going to talk to some Comanche community members (turns out Tonto is "full blooded Comanche" in this version, not Apache as I had reported earlier) to ask how they would feel comfortable being portrayed on the big screen--or if they even felt comfortable at all. I know the right way would have been doing a little more research into hollywood portrayals of Native peoples, and realizing that picking your costume from a non-Native painter who openly admits he has no regard for historical accuracy would probably be a bad idea. Many people have given Johnny a free pass because of his [alleged -kpn] Native heritage, but I think that means we should hold him to a higher standard. If he is serious about honoring his ancestors and his past, he needs to realize that costuming Tonto like a fantasy Indian stereotype is not helping Native people, and his "intent" in the portrayal doesn't save him.

Johnny Depp might have thought his intent cleared him of any criticism. That we would stand back and say "well, he didn't mean to be offensive." or "his heart was in the right place." But that logic ignores the impact of his statements and his portrayal of Tonto. Think how many policies in Indian country were done by people with "good intentions," and how all that turned out for us. The impact here is that millions of people will see this film, and they will walk away with this inaccurate and stereotyped image of American Indians burned in their brains.
***********************************************************

More.... http://nativeappropriations.blogspot.com/2012/04/johnny-depp-as-tonto-im-still-not.html
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on April 26, 2012, 04:08:26 pm
Thanks for the link, KN.

This is important, as "The Lone Ranger"'s success will not be determined by the NA community, anymore than "Pocahantas"s was.

It's clear Disney and Depp need something more than just people shouting at them - they need some real help.

Take the war paint off the face in that painting, and you'll see the face of a man who has experienced a lot - which is what Depp wanted.

But Depp would have had to age his face before putting on that war paint. Even to  play the man at a younger age would still require Depp aging his face before putting on the war paint.

Depp did not know the difference between a live and a dead crow, and this is seriously bad news. No one was there to tell him?

Surely Disney has enough money to pay for trained live crows.

And what does Tonto (Depp) look like without that war paint?

As to story and backstory: Comanche and Texas Ranger in 1869? How Disney intends to re-write that history into entertaining family fare is completely beyond me.

Given that Disney has hundreds of millions of dollars riding on this project, they can either get it right or they risk taking another big loss.

The sad part in all of this is that there was no one there to help Depp or Disney at the very beginning - no one they knew well and trusted.

And that those people have not shown up yet.

Oh well. It's a long way to final cut.



 
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on May 22, 2012, 10:51:40 pm
Once again, the thought came to me to check on this.

Now that his publicity tour for "Dark Shadows" is over, Depp is getting back to serious work. (In this case besides what this is going to do for Native Americans, that is also work measured in hundreds of millions of dollars instead of tens of millions of dollars. )

http://news.yahoo.com/comanche-nation-makes-johnny-depp-honorary-member-212341102.html

One of the interesting things to me is that in the television series (I'm not old enough to comment on the radio series), both the Lone Ranger and Tonto were father figures.

In this photo, Depp's face reflects a more appropriate age for those figures today. Again, in my view both Depp and Arnie are going to have to age their faces with makeup to play their characters.

Those of you out west know more than I do about this, but it also looks to me like Disney has also found some friends for some good advice.

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on May 23, 2012, 04:54:05 pm
Thankfully this article quotes Native Appropriations blogger Adrienne Keene (Cherokee), and clarifies that he was adopted by one Native person, not the whole tribe (as some are reporting. I didn't think they got all the Comanches, everywhere, to adopt this jerk. (and sorry, yes, he's a very talented actor and I used to think he was pretty cool. but he's being a major jerk about all of this.)):
*******************************

Why Can Johnny Depp Play Tonto, but Ashton Kutcher and Sacha Baron Cohen Get Slammed? (http://www.eonline.com/news/ask_the_answer_bitch/why_can_johnny_depp_play_tonto_ashton/318280)
Today 5:00 AM PDT by Leslie Gornstein

"Indeed, Johnny Depp has been adopted as an honorary son by a member of the Comanche Nation,essentially making him a part of that group. However, you are not alone in your line of thinking; not everyone is thrilled at the new matchup, or Depp's chosen approach to his Lone Ranger character:

In fact, Depp has been fielding criticism for months about his upcoming turn as Tonto. His exaggerated Marilyn Manson face paint, the dead bird he wears on his head—none of that has sat particularly well with many Native Americans.

That said, yes, Comanche LaDonna Harris did go ahead and ceremonially adopt the 48-year-old actor in her backyard on May 16. Per tradition, Depp was given small gifts, such as pottery, to then redistribute to the people who were honoring him.

Harris, who is president of the Americans for Indian Opportunity, told me that she has no worries about Depp's portrayal of Tonto. In fact, just the opposite.

"I don't share that concern for one reason," she told this B!tch. "Tonto is a role reversal this time. He's the hero in the movie, the brains. And the sidekick is the white guy, so to speak.

"I've admired him for quite some time, he's always referred to his own [Native American] heritage, and it was an appropriate time to see if he wanted to be adopted into my family."

Indeed, Depp said in 2011 that, "I guess I have some Native American [in me] somewhere down the line. My great-grandmother was quite a bit of Native American, she grew up Cherokee or maybe Creek Indian. Makes sense in terms of coming from Kentucky, which is rife with Cherokee and Creek."

Still, there are some people who are showing concern, or, at least, some confusion, about Harris's choice. One of those people is Adrienne Keene, a Cherokee writer who blogs under Native Appropriations.

"It's really complicated for me," she said, because Harris is "very well respected in Indian country. But my reaction is mixed, because I feel like others will say the adoption excuses Johnny from any sort of criticism for his portrayal of Tonto."

And, for the record, Keene isn't sure she's all that keen. She's been in contact with people on the Lone Ranger set who assured her that both Depp and the filmmakers treated Native American culture with great respect.

"Even if that's true," Keene tells me, "It's still Tonto; Johnny is still wearing face paint that looks like it should be in Kiss, and he has a dead bird on his head. What does it really mean on a broader level?"

As for what the adoption means, at least, on a narrower level, I found out: "He's my son," Harris tells me of Depp. "There's the responsibility of staying in contact, sending a card on Mother's Day, doing what other children do. It's a warm and cordial relationship."

A card every year from Johnny Depp? Can I adopt him too?"
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on June 01, 2012, 02:34:03 pm
I am feeling much much better about this now. This is very good news.

Also, Disney's movie division has a New Manager.

I fell pretty certain that the money necessary to turn The Lone Ranger into a really really good movie will be available now and it will be checked and polished early on, with advice from pre-release Native American viewers.
 

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 01, 2012, 05:19:04 pm
I feel the same as I did when I first heard a white guy was doing a paintdown.

Like Dances With Wolves, some NDNs are getting jobs out of this (as extras, horse riders and wranglers, maybe a few small roles). Oh, and Ms. Harris may get some Mother's Day cards (we'll see). But like DWW, we're also seeing a crap ton of ignorant wannabe behaviour, and I predict yet more of it after this film. Just like people dress up like Depp's other characters. After all, if a "cool guy" like Depp can play NDN, complete with Bird on Head, why can't others who "guess" they may have some heritage somewhere back there maybe, or who are "Native in their hearts"? I predict the hipster headdress problem is going to get worse, not better. Thanks, Johnny boy.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 01, 2012, 08:09:27 pm
Unfortunately, it's all about the money. Depp is a major star and bound to bring
in the dollars at the box office.

The movie makers are not going to make a movie and not use a major star as the
box office draw.

Now, they could and SHOULD go to every length to depict accurately the
character as a Comanche and should not cut corners there or with any
ndn supporting role of any other tribe.

I probably won't go to see it. I wasn't fond of the series, have no reason
why I'd like a movie of it.


Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 02, 2012, 11:39:21 am
Johnny Depp could have put his ego on the shelf and played the Lone Ranger. And hired a Native actor for Tonto. Same box office draw.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 02, 2012, 06:11:48 pm
So true Kathryn, so true.  That would have been the best way about it. If it was a choice
he could make? Or was the studio making the casting calls.. have no idea. But he could
have said no, and told them to hire a Native for Tonto. But I'm not sure it's his ego.

Actors like musicians or dancers, or other artists tend to want to strive for roles that
will stretch their abilities.. so, he may have thought it to be a challenge to his art..
and, being ignorant, which obviously he is or he would have said no and suggested a
Native, he accepted it.

I don't know the man's reasons.


Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 03, 2012, 07:29:04 pm
(http://ictmncdn1.tgpstage1.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/native-actors-who-could-have-played-tonto.jpg)
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on June 16, 2012, 01:56:02 am
The latest news:

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/the-lone-ranger-is-over-budget-behind-schedule-with-rewrites-already-underway-20120613

Note the release date, and remember that "Star Wars" was polished up to its release date.

This is all good news.

I'm pretty sure that Depp and Disney will do their very best to insure that this is a very good movie.

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 16, 2012, 09:11:02 pm
I can think of a lot of far better uses for $250 million than a movie with a white guy playing ndn.

I don't see anything different or encouraging in that article. Just more Hollywood business as usual.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 17, 2012, 05:05:34 am

I don't see anything different or encouraging in that article. Just more Hollywood business as usual.

Me either. He still has that bird on his head. I wonder how many people who, after having seen
the film, will go around with birds on their heads. I think it's stupid. I think, if there's really any
reason to have a dead bird on one's head, then it would have to be a very private reason, and
no one would go around in every day life with a dead bird on their head. But that's just me. Maybe
others see it as being pretty, like wearing a broach or necklace.

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: clearwater on June 20, 2012, 10:14:01 am
If that silly bird on his head makes it to the final film, then I can only guess that Disney will be soon marketing cheap birdhats made in China.

I agree, it's all about the money. Disney is a pretty big steamroller.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 20, 2012, 05:25:50 pm
If that silly bird on his head makes it to the final film, then I can only guess that Disney will be soon marketing cheap birdhats made in China.

It's already started: http://www.etsy.com/search?q=bird%20headdress&view_type=gallery&ship_to=ZZ&min=0&max=0&ref=auto6

(http://img0-ec.etsystatic.com/000/0/6367499/il_570xN.343643304.jpg)

http://www.etsy.com/search?q=native%20american%20bird%20headdress&view_type=gallery&ship_to=ZZ&min=0&max=0&ref=auto6

(http://img1-ec.etsystatic.com/000/0/5198399/il_570xN.341607185.jpg)

http://www.etsy.com/search?q=crow%20headdress&view_type=gallery&ship_to=ZZ&min=0&max=0&ref=auto6

(http://img2-ec.etsystatic.com/il_570xN.304653286.jpg)
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: clearwater on June 20, 2012, 08:01:51 pm
Oh good grief.

Somehow, I think Hollywood thinks it lets itself off the hook from cultural theft when it simply creates things out of nothing (out of "whole cloth") like this.

My feeling is, they are not of the hook. It's cultural theft and bastardization.

In my opinion...
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 21, 2012, 06:45:42 pm
And...

(http://img3-ec.etsystatic.com/000/0/5300702/il_570xN.339480723.jpg) (http://www.etsy.com/listing/100522746/black-bird-hat-feather-fascinator?ref=sr_gallery_5&ga_search_query=bird+hat+feathers&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_ship_to=ZZ&ga_min=0&ga_max=0&ga_search_type=all)

http://www.etsy.com/shop/BatcakesCouture?section_id=5885105

http://www.etsy.com/search?q=bird%20hat%20feathers&view_type=gallery&ship_to=ZZ&min=0&max=0

(http://media.laweekly.com/6956404.28.jpg)

http://www.laweekly.com/photoGallery/index/1332796/1/

partial nudity: http://www.laweekly.com/photoGallery/index/1332796/0/
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on June 27, 2012, 05:45:59 pm
They are in reshoot, and hopefully the dead bird is going away.

Amazingly, the production doesn't have money for CGI or a real for a big train scene.

I wonder what's left of Segio Leone's trains in Spain, or where some old trains are available internationally. For that matter, there are plenty of US train collections, and pieces could be shipped to the set.

There's always narrow gauge available, with backgrounds put in.

Disney needs a train scene to tie in with Thunder Mountain.

Budget? This is Disney, and its a long term investment.

I could have told them John Carter would be a flop early on, and saved them a couple of hundred million.

There's a new piece in Indian Country today on Depp and the Lone Ranger. Worth reading and watching, IMO. Everyone involved seems determined to do this right.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on September 20, 2012, 06:21:52 pm
Dead Bird still on head:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2205852/Johnny-Depp-leaps-moving-trains-films-stunts-new-Lone-Ranger-movie.html

Though Depp has stiffened its wings.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on September 21, 2012, 02:05:25 pm
The dead bird reminds me of the raccoon (coon) skin hats Disney had for Davy Crockett.

I suppose these will be in demand, and despite the fact that Disney and Depp bought rights to the image (which featured a live bird), powwow vendors will end up making them. I suppose the crows will need to watch out. Maybe Disney will make them in China, unless some nation can swing the deal first.

Oh joy. At least this will be better than hearing someone claim that they are descended from Pocahontas. But this time we'll ultimately end up having to explain "spirit warriors".

Well, whatever Disney puts out this time, it can't be as bad as "Squanto".

Casino comedians, get your jokes ready.


Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on October 06, 2012, 07:24:28 pm
Here's the trailer. Dead bird, still on head. Tontospeak, you bet. Racist as all hell, sure looks like it.

http://youtu.be/L9DDCKVrZfU

With all the railroad stuff, it looks like they are also going for some of the audience of Into the West and Hell on Wheels, currently airing on... AMC, I think.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Pono Aloha on October 06, 2012, 08:01:16 pm
My husband says, what's the big deal? It's escapist. I say it's okay to be escapist as long as you're not racist.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 02, 2012, 06:59:00 pm
My husband says, what's the big deal? It's escapist. I say it's okay to be escapist as long as you're not racist.

I think a white guy doing a paintdown, complete with dead bird on head and grunting TontoSpeak, is pretty damn racist.

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 02, 2012, 07:03:43 pm
As for the adoption claim...

Turns out a friend of the 1491s witnessed the "Comanche Adoption," he tells the story here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjCIVFvSp6M&feature=youtu.be

I don't know how the Comanche do it, but if they're like the L/D/N, every single family in the Nation would have to agree to adopt him for him to be adopted "By the Nation" as he, and even some NDN news outlets, have said.  AFAIK, he was adopted by one woman, a respected member of the community but still a complete stranger to him, not by the entire community. The reports and pictures we've seen are backed up by the witness above.

Those new to this thread can read more about how adoption works in this thread: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1294.0

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Epiphany on December 03, 2012, 01:59:16 am
http://www.nativetimes.com/life/people/7896-actor-johnny-depp-honored-guest-at-comanche-nation-fair (http://www.nativetimes.com/life/people/7896-actor-johnny-depp-honored-guest-at-comanche-nation-fair)

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/article/johnny-depp-adopted-into-comanche-nation-114174 (http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/article/johnny-depp-adopted-into-comanche-nation-114174)

http://www.tmz.com/2012/09/29/johnny-depp-comanche-indian-parade/ (http://www.tmz.com/2012/09/29/johnny-depp-comanche-indian-parade/)

Sounds like this has been two events: adopted by LaDonna Harris, then given a proclamation making him an honorary Comanche.

Quote
“LaDonna was with us the whole time. He didn’t go anywhere without LaDonna.  He loves LaDonna,” Asa Attocknie, tribal member, said. “He’s very thoughtful. He was shocked the chairman gave him a proclamation making him an honorary Comanche. He didn’t expect that at all. He was very humble.” (my bolding)

That third link is to video of him arriving at the Comanche Nation Fair in Oklahoma. Personally the video makes me a cringe a little, I don't like the man I guess.





Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on December 11, 2012, 03:47:03 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2246304/The-Lone-Ranger-trailer-The-story-mask-revealed.html

Not as bad as "Squanto" but not good news.
Its a "spirit bird".
You try to kill it and it just keeps coming back to life.

At least we can be sure that Disney will take it before NDN preview audiences, so perhaps it will be improved a little, but this is not good news.
"Horse says so".


Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 11, 2012, 06:51:31 pm
No preview feedback will make them reshoot the entire movie. It's Depp's entire performance that stinks from the head. Depp's accent veers back and forth between sounding like a constipated Norwegian attempting to sound like a Noble Savage, to sounding like a French pretendian. It is truly horrible. I didn't think it was possible to make an even more offensive form of TontoSpeak, but Depp has managed it.

I couldn't get the trailer to load in the Daily Mail article, but here it is on YouTube: http://youtu.be/JgXGbsESUEg
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on December 13, 2012, 05:07:15 pm
The Tonto speak doesn't bother me, as Tonto is shown speaking some native language quite fluently with the horse. 

As long as it is shown that English is Tonto's second or third language, it's okay by me.

Optimist that I am, there's hope that anything really, really offensive will be taken out, re-dubbed, or re-shot after the NDN preview audiences comment.

We still have not seen what Tonto looks like in street clothes, if he ever appears that way.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: milehighsalute on February 04, 2013, 11:23:35 pm
i dont care......its a FICTIONAL character in a movie i probably wont go see. now i would have a problem if they chose a non-native to play geronimo or crazy horse or pope' or any other historical figures.......but tonto is make believe
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: tecpaocelotl on April 30, 2013, 09:49:09 pm
http://www.whitewolfpack.com/2013/04/johnny-depp-speaks-to-gathering-of.html

More info including a video from Johnny Depp.
Title: Re: F*** you, Johnny Depp.
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 01, 2013, 02:44:38 am
F*** you, Johnny Depp: http://www.disneystore.com/disney/store/DSIProductDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10051&langId=-1&N=1000395&productId=1332995

(http://cdn.s7.disneystore.com/is/image/DisneyShopping/2889055737114?$yetidetail$)
(http://cdn.s7.disneystore.com/is/image/DisneyShopping/DSLoneRangerCosS13?$full$)
(http://cdn.s7.disneystore.com/is/image/DisneyShopping/2869041617097?$yetidetail$)
Title: Re: F*** you, Johnny Depp.
Post by: milehighsalute on June 03, 2013, 02:57:38 pm
F*** you, Johnny Depp: http://www.disneystore.com/disney/store/DSIProductDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10051&langId=-1&N=1000395&productId=1332995

(http://cdn.s7.disneystore.com/is/image/DisneyShopping/2889055737114?$yetidetail$)
(http://cdn.s7.disneystore.com/is/image/DisneyShopping/DSLoneRangerCosS13?$full$)
(http://cdn.s7.disneystore.com/is/image/DisneyShopping/2869041617097?$yetidetail$)
if depp cared so much about the people why didnt he just go make an appearence at GON......hang out....talk to the people....take pics....eat frybread???? he was hoping to tap into legit indian who will go see him movie and give him credibility
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 03, 2013, 08:39:21 pm
Another take on Johnny Depp's video message to GON: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SahzBTvYjos
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Laurel on June 06, 2013, 01:36:55 pm
I started a new thread for that one in Comedy Channel--should I take it down?

Also this:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/971456_10151468934797749_1980342397_n.jpg
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 23, 2013, 10:02:10 pm
Nah, leave it up. For those who can still laugh at this racism.

Depp shows up at Oklahoma showing, wearing medallion of himself in redface. White children in redface spotted at premier.

https://twitter.com/mizblossom/status/348842842396971008

(https://o.twimg.com/2/proxy.jpg?t=HBgpaHR0cHM6Ly90d2l0cGljLmNvbS9zaG93L2xhcmdlL2N5c3g5bS5qcGcUkAMUrAIAFgASAA&s=XtiwWQDYqCHyBy62tM5iz69vUkTanFfEdyLq3xcp4w8)
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 23, 2013, 10:19:13 pm
And... he promotes even more negative stereotypes to Rolling Stone:

http://nativeappropriations.com/2013/06/johnny-depp-tells-rolling-stone-more-about-tonto.html#comments

“I wanted him to be no joke. First of all, I wouldn’t f**k with someone with a dead bird on their head. Second of all, he’s got the f**king paint on his face, which scares me…I wanted to maybe give some hope to kids on the reservations. They’re living without running water and seeing problems with drugs and booze. But I wanted to be able to show these kids, ‘F**k that! You’re still warriors, man.’”

Guess Johnny boy doesn't know there are still warrior societies. As well as a fairly wide range of economic situations on different reserves and reservations. But of course, he probably saw Diane Sawyer's "drunk and penniless" poverty porn and thinks that's how all NDNs live.  Totally colonial of him to think he's the one to inspire kids by playing a character called "stupid" who talks like he has a head injury. F him.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: catbus on June 25, 2013, 04:05:10 pm
Nah, leave it up. For those who can still laugh at this racism.

Depp shows up at Oklahoma showing, wearing medallion of himself in redface. White children in redface spotted at premier...

Guess Johnny boy doesn't know there are still warrior societies. As well as a fairly wide range of economic situations on different reserves and reservations. But of course, he probably saw Diane Sawyer's "drunk and penniless" poverty porn and thinks that's how all NDNs live.  Totally colonial of him to think he's the one to inspire kids by playing a character called "stupid" who talks like he has a head injury. F him.

Serious, hits the nail on the head. I hope Mr. Depp would encounter such sentiments and turn 'red-face' in embarrasment for his own foolishness and hypocrisy in this role.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on June 27, 2013, 05:33:20 pm
It makes you gasp...

It is clear that Disney missed a wonderul opportunity to bring back the "real" life human Tonto we knew as children.

Instead, we have a Tonto and Lone Ranger who are fantasy comic book characters in the same mold as Pirate Jack.

(I do not know if Depp can act the role of  a mere mortal now.)

In making this decision Disney used up an opportunity to provide young people with role models, and I think that it is likely that it is this loss that irritates many.
 
As far as the stereotyping goes, it reminds me of that quote from that author whose nme I can not remember (and please help me out here)  that now NDNs are portrayed as keepers of hidden mystic knowledge.


Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on June 27, 2013, 06:11:37 pm
Sometimes all you can do is laugh. Reposted from Comedy with props and thanks to Laurel.

Hysterical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SahzBTvYjos

In my view, the only way to judge the current Tonto will be as a fantasy figure.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on June 27, 2013, 10:32:25 pm
And old The Lone Ranger and Tonto took on New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans:

http://youtu.be/94vjNOC5t-Q

If one had money, copies of the original films, and a lot of computer time,
one could put them in HD, edit the action, music, and sound, and colorize them, then stream them out.

Oh well...


Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Epiphany on June 28, 2013, 02:43:34 pm
Quote
Before there was the Lone Ranger and Tonto, there was… Elizabeth Key and Chief Kanagatucko? New research from Ancestry.com reveals both Armie Hammer and Johnny Depp – the leading actors of Walt Disney Pictures’ “The Lone Ranger” – are direct descendants of two real American freedom fighters. Armie Hammer Is Descended from Cherokee Chief Kanagatucko and Johnny Depp’s 8th Great-Grandmother Is Elizabeth Key, the first African-American Slave to Sue for Freedom
-
Quote
Who Was Elizabeth Key?
Unlike Johnny Depp’s vigilante character Tonto, his ancestor Elizabeth Key worked within the law to win her freedom. Born to a British Aristocrat father and an African American mother, Key successfully sued for her freedom and that of her infant son in the mid-1600s. Invoking British colonial law, which stated that civil status as being determined by the father, she won her freedom on July 21, 1656 in the colony of Virginia, where some of Depp’s family members have lived since the early 1600s.

http://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2013/06/26/lone-ranger-heroes-hammer-depp-family-trees/ (http://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2013/06/26/lone-ranger-heroes-hammer-depp-family-trees/)

So Johnny Depp's genealogy has been worked up by professionals, notice that there is no mention of any NDN heritage.

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Otter3 on June 30, 2013, 06:13:49 pm
Quote
Before there was the Lone Ranger and Tonto, there was… Elizabeth Key and Chief Kanagatucko? New research from Ancestry.com reveals both Armie Hammer and Johnny Depp – the leading actors of Walt Disney Pictures’ “The Lone Ranger” – are direct descendants of two real American freedom fighters. Armie Hammer Is Descended from Cherokee Chief Kanagatucko and Johnny Depp’s 8th Great-Grandmother Is Elizabeth Key, the first African-American Slave to Sue for Freedom
-
Quote
Who Was Elizabeth Key?
Unlike Johnny Depp’s vigilante character Tonto, his ancestor Elizabeth Key worked within the law to win her freedom. Born to a British Aristocrat father and an African American mother, Key successfully sued for her freedom and that of her infant son in the mid-1600s. Invoking British colonial law, which stated that civil status as being determined by the father, she won her freedom on July 21, 1656 in the colony of Virginia, where some of Depp’s family members have lived since the early 1600s.

http://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2013/06/26/lone-ranger-heroes-hammer-depp-family-trees/ (http://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2013/06/26/lone-ranger-heroes-hammer-depp-family-trees/)

So Johnny Depp's genealogy has been worked up by professionals, notice that there is no mention of any NDN heritage.


In this article (June 30, 2013) the NDN heritage is discussed again in detail.

In today's San Francisco Chronicle, "Depp defying horse, skeptics to play Tonto" by Michael Ordona.    Quote from article:  "Depp has often invoked his own ancestry in expressing his desire to 'redress the balance of the way they have been mistreated in cinema.'  His great-grandmother Mae Sloan would tell him as a boy of his American Indian blood, although the actor is unsure of the tribe, Creek or Cherokee." 

Depp's Tonto appearance is based on a painting by (white artist) Kirby Sattler, "I am Crow."  Depp says that when he saw the painting, at first thought that the crow was his headdress, but then he realized the crow was flying behind him.  But he liked the idea of the crow as a headdress for Tonto, who is viewed as an eccentric by his own people. 

And,  another quote from Depp:  "..They [the Commanche and Navajo] may have nothing, but they'll give you a piece of turquoise that has been in their family for 200 years.  I've never met a warmer people."

Ugh. :P


Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 02, 2013, 04:08:14 pm
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/07/02/what-johnny-depps-the-lone-ranger-means-for-disney/?partner=yahootix

Disney had a decision to make.

They could have gone with two father figures, the perfect answer to their conundrum, but instead went with two fantasy characters, based on their experiece with Pirates of the Carribean.

The result is that Disney is now working on damage control, and minimizing their losses.




 
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Pono Aloha on July 02, 2013, 08:52:55 pm
http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/07/02/196333864/does-disneys-tonto-reinforce-stereotypes-or-overcome-them

Quote
Asked if he's Native American, Depp says he grew up in Kentucky, where his great-grandmother and great-grandfather told him he had Cherokee blood. "But over there, could have been Cherokee, could have been Creek, could have been Choctaw," he says.

Whatever!
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on July 02, 2013, 10:44:33 pm
Again, all tribes that are very well-documented. It's a fantasy story, like so many families who decided it was preferable to think of themselves as having NDN ancestors rather than Black ones. Sad, but all too common. His genealogy has been done, so it's rather crazy and insensitive for him to keep on with this b.s.

This video, especially Chris Rock's and others' comments in the section that starts at 5:02, addresses the ancestry myths common in African-American families.

http://youtu.be/YR_p6PdAIrI

In families that quickly assimilated and passed as white... well, I think it's just that they didn't want to be Black, but they felt they had to have some color from somewhere.

There's a show on cable now, by some of the team that did Spinal Tap, about a guy who's researching his family tree. Sure enough, for one episode he thought he had a Native ancestor. Turns out she was Jewish. We know that story ;)
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Autumn on July 03, 2013, 01:09:55 am
http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/07/02/196333864/does-disneys-tonto-reinforce-stereotypes-or-overcome-them

Quote
Asked if he's Native American, Depp says he grew up in Kentucky, where his great-grandmother and great-grandfather told him he had Cherokee blood. "But over there, could have been Cherokee, could have been Creek, could have been Choctaw," he says.

Whatever!

Now he is throwing Chickasaw into the mix:  http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3445_162-57591526/the-lone-ranger-and-tonto-ride-again/ (around the 6:15 mark in the video)

He also justifies his characterization by saying that in this film Tonto is equal to the Lone Ranger, not a servant as in the old films.  The costume was totally his idea and it was a result of being inspired by a portrait.  Unfortunately, the bird was flying behind the man in the portrait and Mr. Depp thought a dead bird was on his head, so that was his inspiration for the costume, which is pretty pathetic, IMHO.

P.S.:  The reviews so far are pretty bad and all that for $215 million.  What a waste.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Epiphany on July 03, 2013, 01:20:01 am
He's likin' the "C" named tribes, maybe he only read that far down a list of tribes.  ;D
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on July 03, 2013, 03:26:38 am
He's picking from the five tribes who had early contact and intermarriage with whites. It's members of those tribes that a white person, whose parents and grandparents are also white, is most likely to find among their distant ancestors if they do their genealogy. They're also the tribes that white people are most likely to try to form fake versions of. Sometimes the "descendants" of a fabricated ancestor, or a distant ancestor that doesn't make their assimilated descendants with miniscule BQ NDN, or a white person with rumours they can't confirm will join one of those fake tribes of the fabricated "C" history.

As others have posted about in other threads, there are also A LOT of white people who have unfounded family rumours because they have white ancestors who tried to pass as NDN to get land allotments that weren't their right to claim. The story of being rejected because they were white frauds morphs over time into one of those "we hid in the mountains of Ohio and Texas rather than walk the Trail of Tears" fables.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on July 03, 2013, 03:17:10 pm
"What I disliked about the movie was everything."

Norman Patrick Brown (Dine') reviews Lone Ranger: http://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2013/07/norman-patrick-brown-rating-for-lone.html

"As I saw the credits roll I was amazed that Johnny Depp was first listed above everyone else as an executive producer, and how much incredible power he possessed in creating this movie's creative structure, it failed. As a native filmmaker it was obvious to me that Hollywood once again failed. Yes, yes, it is just a movie, but the ramifications of symbolism and interpretation will be recorded as true among America's non-native uneducated native history buffs, which is very dangerous for our future and perception of who we truly are today."

Read the whole thing (http://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2013/07/norman-patrick-brown-rating-for-lone.html). It's a lot funnier than the movie. 
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Otter3 on July 03, 2013, 05:46:09 pm
[quote link=topic=3318.msg35161#msg35161 date=1372864630]
"What I disliked about the movie was everything."

 Yes, yes, it is just a movie, but the ramifications of symbolism and interpretation will be recorded as true among America's non-native uneducated native history buffs, which is very dangerous for our future and perception of who we truly are today."

Read the whole thing (http://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2013/07/norman-patrick-brown-rating-for-lone.html). It's a lot funnier than the movie.
[/quote]

I agree.   Disney ads say, "This July 4th, witness the rise of an American Legend!"  The Disney marketing monster unleashed on Native Americans.  :P
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on July 04, 2013, 12:17:19 am
Adrienne Keene of Native Appropriations suffered through this racist mess. She found herself in a theatre surrounded by white people laughing at genocide, who seemed perfectly happy to see NDNs portrayed as dumb and crazy. That said, the film is getting terrible reviews, even by people oblivious to the racial issues.

I saw The Lone Ranger so you don’t have to http://nativeappropriations.com/2013/07/i-saw-the-lone-ranger-so-you-dont-have-to.html

"After it all happens, and we’re to understand all the Comanche are dead, Tonto picks up his bird from the river full of floating feathers, shields, and bodies. I braced myself for the emotional realization that his entire tribe had just been slaughtered. Again. But no. Instead the camera pans up and we are shown Silver, the horse, standing in a tree holding the LR’s hat in his mouth. To which Tonto quips, “Yes. Something definitely wrong with that horse.” The scene then quickly cuts to a loud brass band and celebration at the unveiling of the railroad line back in town.

"Let me reiterate that, not in Tonto speak, because it’s important: They slaughter an entire tribe of Natives, and there is no discussion. Just an awkward joke and a cut to the next scene. What?"

"So clearly I went into this with a critical lens, but you wouldn’t expect anything less. This film has come under a lot of harsh criticism, and for the most part, it deserves it. As a piece of cinema, it’s just a bad movie. On top of a bad movie, we have layers of stereotypes and harmful representations that are going to keep haunting us as Native peoples for years to come.

"My theater had a bunch of kids in it. I kept thinking about what images they were leaving the theater with–and that left me upset and worried. Now an entire new generation is going to play the Lone Ranger and Tonto at recess, thinking Indians talk in incomplete and inconsistent pidgin English, think all Indians are dead, and that it’s ok to dress as an “Indian” for Halloween. While this might be a flash-in-the-pan film, it solidifies the continuing views of Native peoples as lesser, as relics of the past, as disappearing, as roadblocks to “progress.” Tonto might have been less of a sidekick and running the show, but in the end, the LR gets the girl and the glory, and Tonto ends up in a museum. Hows that for a re-imagining."

Read the rest: I saw The Lone Ranger so you don’t have to (http://nativeappropriations.com/2013/07/i-saw-the-lone-ranger-so-you-dont-have-to.html)

Twitter is abuzz with people totally grossed out at this racist mess, and horrified at the many gratuitous ways NDNs are slaughtered, with genocide being played for laughs. Though some are asking that we try to focus instead on the good work Native filmakers are doing, instead of continuing to critique this. But Disney is still pushing this thing and so people's phones are ringing for comments. The only upside of this is that some Natives are being quoted, and Adrienne is doing lots of interviews because even some mainstream media outlets are pretty shocked at the racism, sexism and gratuitous, racialized violence in the doomed Lone Ranger.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Odelle on July 04, 2013, 01:49:09 am
Unfortunately, it appears that Adrienne has gotten a lot of flack (to put it mildly) for her writing on Tonto:
http://nativeappropriations.com/2012/07/real-indians-dont-care-about-tonto.html
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Epiphany on July 04, 2013, 02:56:01 am
I really appreciate Adrienne Keene's work.

From the link Odelle passed on:

Quote
The irony of this whole situation kills me–I’m not allowed to criticize Johnny Depp, a public figure, and we’re supposed to lay off of him because he has “Indian heritage,” is a “good person,” and doing “good things” for Indian country.

But me, a Cherokee woman going to graduate school so I can give back to Native communities and help more Native students go to college, who puts herself out there for criticism and hate because I dare question how Native people are situated in our society, is not an Indian or even a good person. Why does Johnny get a free pass?

Let me remind you that this is all over TONTO. Tonto. A character that has gone down in history as one of the worst and lasting stereotypes of Native peoples, and continues to affect us today.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: loudcrow on July 07, 2013, 03:32:31 pm
http://ethnicelebs.com/johnny-depp

Johnny is descended from a woman, Martha, who born in 1612, and who was of African descent. Martha’s daughter, Elizabeth Key (also an ancestor of Johnny), was the first woman of African ancestry to successfully take legal action to free herself from slavery. This happened in 1656. Johnny is descended from Martha twice (on one family tree, she is both one of his eight times great-grandmothers, and one of his nine times great-grandmothers). That would mean that Johnny is of 3/2048 African ancestry.(1)

Johnny’s nine times great-grandmother, Nicketti Opechancanough, was of Powhatan Native American ancestry, making Johnny of 1/2048 Powhatan Native American descent.
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Epiphany on July 07, 2013, 09:26:21 pm
http://ethnicelebs.com/johnny-depp

Johnny is descended from a woman, Martha, who born in 1612, and who was of African descent. Martha’s daughter, Elizabeth Key (also an ancestor of Johnny), was the first woman of African ancestry to successfully take legal action to free herself from slavery. This happened in 1656. Johnny is descended from Martha twice (on one family tree, she is both one of his eight times great-grandmothers, and one of his nine times great-grandmothers). That would mean that Johnny is of 3/2048 African ancestry.(1)

Johnny’s nine times great-grandmother, Nicketti Opechancanough, was of Powhatan Native American ancestry, making Johnny of 1/2048 Powhatan Native American descent.

Professional genealogists do state that Johnny Depp's ancestor is Elizabeth Key
http://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2013/06/26/lone-ranger-heroes-hammer-depp-family-trees/ (http://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2013/06/26/lone-ranger-heroes-hammer-depp-family-trees/)

The claim about Nicketti Opechancanough does not have the same level of scholarly backing. Apparently there is no evidence that such a person existed.

Quote
Princess Nicketti is the name given to a Virginia Indian woman believed by some to have been the daughter of Opechancanough, a leader of the Powhatan Indians and the brother of the paramount chief Powhatan. While the name has been referenced almost exclusively on twenty-first-century genealogy websites by people claiming family relationship, no scholarly evidence exists that Princess Nicketti ever lived. A careful search of seventeenth-century records in Virginia yields no one by that name, male or female. And no name of a child of Opechancanough was ever recorded in that century. The writings about her stem from a single published source: Alexander Brown's genealogy The Cabells and Their Kin (1939). Significantly, Brown calls Nicketti's story only a "very interesting tradition" and adds, "I cannot vouch for it[s accuracy]," but he had heard about her from several prominent Piedmont Virginia families. Subsequent writers have quoted Brown's text as fact.

Quote
Another problem with the Princess Nicketti legend is that North American Indian tribes did not have princesses in the European sense. Most tribes were relatively egalitarian, and egalitarian societies do not produce aristocracies. Even the more hierarchical Indian cultures, such as the Powhatan, did not have European-style royalty.

Quote
Despite the evidence against Princess Nicketti's existence, she remains a popular figure, especially among those interested in family history. As evidenced by the numerous claims of relation to Powhatan's daughter Pocahontas, and to the privileges granted those alleged relations in the Racial Integrity Acts, Virginians have long valued connections, real or mythological, to Indian "royalty." Those connections have most often been made through women, who likely are seen as less threatening than males like Opechancanough, for instance, who led Second Anglo-Powhatan War (1622-1632). Claims of ancestry through the Powhatan Indians are more common, as well, probably because it was an especially well-known tribe.

Quote
The American Indian author Vine Deloria has argued that Americans seek family connections to Indians in order to relate in a more personal way to the frontier and, perhaps, to expiate guilt related to the treatment of American Indians. Others have pointed out that during parts of the twentieth century claims of Indian ancestry sometimes exempted people from laws that segregated whites from nonwhites. For instance, in Virginia the Racial Integrity Acts, passed in the 1920s, outlawed marriage between whites and nonwhites (the latter classification included Virginia Indians, who state officials believed to be black) and required that people's racial statuses be recorded at birth; elite Virginians who claimed ancestry to Pocahontas, however, could still register as white.

Quote
"Nicketti" is not an identifiable Indian name, and is probably a corruption of some other name. It could be derived from "Necotowance," the former name of a creek in King William County, taken in turn from the personal name of Opechancanough's male successor. Nothing is known about that man except that he signed the Treaty of 1646 on behalf of many of the Powhatan tribes. He disappeared from the English records after 1649.

http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/nicketti_princess#start_entry (http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/nicketti_princess#start_entry)
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on July 08, 2013, 08:25:06 pm
The family trees - all unsourced, and full of fantasies - around Opechancanough Powhatan and the nonexistent Nicketti are a big, old, racist mess.

Supposedly, one of my 11th great-grandfathers was married to Opechancanough's mother, allegedly Paupauwiske Poawomeck (Powhatan). IF this woman existed, it's unclear which children were hers and which had other mothers. All the family trees around them are a mess. I believe some of these lineages were fabricated to claim that men like Raleigh Croshaw, a notorious NDN killer, was actually NDN. I think it's a way white people are trying to falsely blame NDNs for the massacres that their white ancestors committed against NDNS.

The family trees around these individuals routinely give them strange, non-Native names (like Cleopatra! or Disney-type names in English) and Euro-type titles of royalty. Of course the latter also happens with people who fabricate ties to Euro royalty; they just can't accept that their ancestors were normal people. Anyway... The unsourced family trees around these ancestors routinely conflate unrelated people from totally different tribes and centuries; they swap around people's birthdates by literally hundreds of years, swap around parents and children, and generally do everything possible to destroy their credibility. That's the sort of stuff Depp's defenders are relying on.

Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on July 08, 2013, 09:03:25 pm
Related discussions in our thread on solid, sourced genealogy vs vague family stories, especially about how non-Native's vague family stories about NDN ancestors usually do not bear up under scrutiny: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3981.0
Title: Re: Say what Johnny Depp?
Post by: Sparks on December 06, 2018, 02:54:50 am
Johnny’s nine times great-grandmother, Nicketti Opechancanough, was of Powhatan Native American ancestry, making Johnny of 1/2048 Powhatan Native American descent.

The claim about Nicketti Opechancanough does not have the same level of scholarly backing. Apparently there is no evidence that such a person existed.

The family trees - all unsourced, and full of fantasies - around Opechancanough Powhatan and the nonexistent Nicketti are a big, old, racist mess.

In addition to evidence quoted by Epiphany, see also NAFPS forum member jeaniesgenealogy's blog:

http://www.jeaniesgenealogy.com/2011/11/im-related-to-princess.html [Princess Nicketti Powhatan]