Author Topic: Frauds and illness  (Read 13513 times)

gusss

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Frauds and illness
« on: March 24, 2006, 06:44:00 pm »
are there any accounts of NAFs who missapropriate native ceremonies falling ill ?

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2006, 11:19:37 pm »
See the threads about Harley Reagan, Robert Franzone, and Carlos Casteneda.

And for illness and other misfortunes falling upon their followers or inner circles, see the threads on Benny LeBeau and Buck Ghosthorse.

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2006, 11:23:58 pm »
I haven't added it yet, but apparently Roy I Wilson's followers have been getting ill from his sweat lodge ceremonies. Heard it through the moccasin telegraph.;) But the person who told me is "in the know."

walking-soft

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2006, 06:17:55 am »
Very interesting question. I'm curious as to why you would ask. Have you been ill.

Read through all the threads, yes to your question and some have died. Things done in the wrong way esp. if it's ceromonies that have been stolen or used in the wrong way can make a person seriously ill. Just because it sounds good or right doesn't make it so.
                                              Wado

gusss

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2006, 02:47:33 pm »
Its a long story, heres a version I posted elsewhere.


Ive know this woman for years who is white ( to look at) claims to be half Oglala Sioux and conducts ceremonies. She comes across as a medicine woman and uses Jamie Sams cards and all that. Everyone seems to respect her round here as a "medecine woman" here being the UK .
Anyway at first I was quite impressed by her, never having met a real native person when I was younger (18). I would have say I consider her a friend but the enviroment of drugs and alcahol and weird new age power structures put me off a bit and my contact has dwindled over the years. She ran ceremonies and sweats and charged money.
Then she got breast cancer and it nearly killed her. Luckily she recovered . It was about this time that I started reading stuff online and was quite amzed to read all this stuff about fake medicine and white people pretending to be NDNs and selling spirituality etc etc That was all new to me. Though I think people like that do it for status (guruship) as much as money.
anyway I posted her one of the articles Id read here I think Arvol looking horse saying whites shouldnt take part in ceremonies and a couple of bits and bobs about fake medicine people getting ill.
She obviously didnt read it or respond and a couple of months later she invited me to a sweat ( a charge for minimum expenses etc). I didnt turn up.
I am very superstitious and  I then got it into my head that she had got ill because of her false medicine practise and was worried if she kept doing it her illness might come back .
On her Birthday we all went out and got pissed(drunk) and I said as much. She hasnt spoken to me since though dont know if shes done anymore ceremonies. Old friends of mine who were also friends of hers now wont talk to me. I did have good intentions but I think maybe I overstepped the mark. Most people have told me suggesting to someone that there illness was in anyway their own fault is offensive and I should apologise, however if I suggested someone give up smoking they would not have had a problem.
Im considering apologising ( I feel it would been better if wed talked about it sober, and perhaps not on her birthday) that but I still think she should at least be made aware of all the stuff posted on here , ie legitimate warnings against false medicine people by tribal nations own government.
I would appreciate it anyone had any links to legitimate warnings by tribal governments relating to fake medicine people if they could post them, or if anyone in their own words can consisely sum up why it is wrong and what the dangers are

So that was a post I made before on another site. I am looking to see if it was just my delusion or if people really do get ill from lying about such things.
I has a look for the names you mentioned Edu Ind but could not find any of them apart from one.

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2006, 05:54:07 pm »
Quote
Everyone seems to respect her round here as a "medecine woman" here being the UK .


I'm in the UK: I'd be interested to know who this person is. PM me in confidence if you like.

Offline Ric_Richardson

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2006, 04:30:02 pm »
Tansi;

While this story may be more about the misuse of a Spiritual Gift, than a fraud, I believe that it may be relevant.

In our region, several years ago, there was an individual who held sweats.  This individual was known for being able to use "manipulative" Medicine and was sought out by people when they wanted something like winning an election, money or women.

One day, while this person was alone, in his lodge, he crawled out and said "they got me" and died.

After this, many of our community members became afraid of Traditional Medicine and this fear continues to be seen.  Now, if anyone in our community seeks out Traditional Medicine, they do it secretively.

We believe that when some people have Gifts, they also have the Choice as to how they use them.  Whether the choice is for good or bad, there is a price to pay.  When used to help with health and healing, we believe that the price is acceptable, but if used in a manipulative manner, the price may include the Life, or worse, of the individual making this choice.

With Respect;
Ric

Offline vikinglady

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2006, 04:56:42 pm »
Ric - I totally agree with what you said because I think the same goes for having a spiritual gift in any culture or religion. The temptation of power and money will always be there.

I have my own theory when it comes to non-Natives getting seriously involved in Indian cultures and/or spirituality: somewhere along the road, they will be tested. It happens e-v-e-r-y time! They will come to a crossroad and those who choose the wrong path will without any doubt get in trouble, sometimes when it comes to their health. Some of them look much older than their age, like if something is eating them from inside. I have seen this happen SO many times! It catches up on them eventually.

I know that people over here have participated in sweats run by frauds and taken very ill, too.

Offline plz

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2006, 07:48:03 pm »
Gusss,

This is only from my white woman w/breast cancer opinion:

I 'did' a sweat for an elderly lady who had 'always wanted' to participate, but was hesitant for her health 's sake with the traditional heat involved.

I also 'did' the second half of a sweat ceremony for Ed McGaa, at his direction.  This all was back in 1989.

In '99 I was dx'd with breast cancer.  However, so was my mom at age 50 along with HER mom at age 65...... and they were NOT involved in any kind of nuage bs.

So, from just my perspective, I stopped trying to figure out the hows a long time ago.  Because I've seen that anyone can get cancer.

Your friend has probably been down the road of: "what could I have done differently?" ad naseum.  So, would be on the defensive with words that put the blame on her...

On the other hand, I am in total admiration of  Moma P's post on taking ceremonies out of context/foundation.  It's dangerous, imho.  

regards,
pattyz


Offline piya

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2006, 04:30:04 pm »
I have heard this said many times among our people, and think it is right to bring it up now for discussion.

Don't look at it as Christians V's Nds, alcohol and tobacco, look deeper into it.

"It is ironic that the wine that is the Christians' most sacred substance, used in the Mass to represent the blood of their God, has caused such a trail of devastation within Native populations. And the Natives' most sacred substance, tobacco, has caused major health problems for so many Christians. "

Steve

To Old To Die Young

gusss

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2006, 12:46:44 am »
Piz-
you werent charging people or misleading gullable young people into ceremony to boost your flaggin sense of self importance.

walking-soft

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2006, 11:44:59 pm »
Plz,

Was wondering if the Ed MCGaa is the one also known as Eagle Man, tribal member of the Oglala Sioux?? I think he is also an Author?

I know Ed, Pine Ridge hey? Same one?

I just wanted a little clarification. Did you say you had an opportunity to  sweat with Ed or that he started it and than you took over,I'm assuming at one of the doors?

Just wondering.            Wado

gusss

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2006, 01:07:06 pm »
Piya -
In response to your statenment about alcahol and tobacco.
It occurs to me it is slightly erroneous to atribute these bad health effects to either the substances themselves or racial characteristics of the people taking them.
Id say they were more cultural reasons.
I have several resons for saying this.
Alcahol has also reeked havoc in Europe - in gaelic areas of glasgow for example alcahol is a major factor in the average lifespan being only 54 years.
Conversly the Incas and Amazonian natives had alcahol before the arrival of the europeans - namely masato and cheecha.
Did you hear that Tobaco and cocaine were recently discovered in an egyptian tomb ?
I am also know there are catholic natives who have drank the eucharist without becoming alcaholics.
tobacco in europe is generally full of chemicals and smoked as a stress reliever rather than anything sacred.
So id say its more to do with way one uses these substances and the cultural context in which they are used that affects health.
However I must admit different races have evolved over thousands of years to adapt to certain substances so there must be some gentetic factors as well.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2006, 01:53:34 pm »
Guss , you ask a good question , in your first post . I have known a few people into New Age
stuff , and I know how hard it can be to explain why what they are doing might be harmful .
Most of them  have good intentions , but are also confused and ignorant . Unfortunanly being
confused and ignorant , makes people vulnerable to the few who are manipulative and exploitive .

The way I understand this ( and I may be partly wrong  ) is that the Spiritual teachings and
traditions , which maintain the moral and Spiritul health of a community , are not the same thing as traditional medicine used to shift something to a desired outcome.

As I understand it , in many Native traditions , "medicine" , beyond simple plant knowledge for physical health ,  is similar to non native magic or witchcraft.

People who work with medicine or magic are not necesaarily Spiritual people , and Spiritual
people are not always medicine people .

Spiritual teachings and traditions are very important to make sure any medicine or magic used
is directed in a wise and good way , and even the most knowledgeable Elders seem to be very
cautious about making any assumptions about how medicine will work .  That is one of the reasons
such great efforts are made to keep the Spiritual traditions and teachings entirely seperate
from of the allure and corrupting temptations of money and as Guss cals it "guruship".  

Medicine people who are not also mature Spiritual people tend to be dangerous .  

Mature Spirtual people do not use drugs and alcohol .

There is a book called Grass Dancer , by  Susan Power , which I highly recommend to anyone
who is interested in Native medicine or becoming a "shaman" . It is only a work of fiction , but is a good read , and Susan Powers knows the culture . ( Her Mom is Lakota ) This book has as one of the plot lines ,what happens when traditional medicine gets used outside of protective frame work of traditional Spirituality .

So often non native people do not understand why it is important to keep traditional safe guards in place , or why Native Spiritual traditions cannot be shared .

In many cases the morals and values found in Native tradiditions probably can be shared , with
a good outcome , and many respected Elders such as William Commanda seem to make a point to
reach out to do this .  But this is not at all the same , as trying to imitate specific Native traditions and ceremonies . Native traditions work for Native people primarily BECAUSE these traditions are their own traditions and connect to something , that is both a part of themselves and much bigger than themselves .  

If non native people try and connect with this , really , all they are doing is pretending . An escapeist fantasy , or a non native version of a cargo cult , practiced in the hopes of once again discovering a new continent of riches . Only this time it is mostly in their imaginations .

Native traditions belong in Native communities because they are much easier to maintain in a
healthy way when they exist within a Native community .  The temptations of guruship are
markedly reduced if a person knew all the people who might sit them up on a pedastel , when
they were in diapers . In a traditional community elderly people are usually taken care of .  
When people are secure and old enough to be facing their own death , they no longer have a
need for a pile of stuff , and know that the only thing that will last ,is what they manage
to pass on . In a traditional community , there is more than one Elder , so there is a better
balance of knowledge and power and also a peer group to notice if something is wrong .  Day to day life
with people who have known you all your life tends to keep peoples egos ground down to a
realistic size . Even with all these traditional safe guards some people practicre bad medicine
and some medicine goes different than expected .

That is how I understand it . If any of this is wrong , or might further confuse someone I hope someone will correct me .


Offline plz

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Re: Frauds and illness
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2006, 02:58:13 pm »
[quote author=walking-soft
Plz,

Was wondering if the Ed MCGaa is the one also known as Eagle Man, tribal member of the Oglala Sioux?? I think he is also an Author?

I know Ed, Pine Ridge hey? Same one?

I just wanted a little clarification. Did you say you had an opportunity to ? sweat with Ed or that he started it and than you took over,I'm assuming at one of the doors?

Just wondering. ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? Wado [/quote]

Yes, this is the man.  I posted my experience with him in a seperate thread under his name in the Frauds folder.

It was back in the fall of '89,  at a college in So. Mn.  There was a weekend of programs/Nuage stuff where he spoke on Native Spirituality, then would conduct ceremony for those interested.  The reason he gave me for turning over the last half of Inipi to me was: "He was tired."

I did not want to do this.  But had not gradutated to the point of seeing him for who he was, nor my complicity in yet more theft from Native peoples.

That summer he was in the process of writing his book "Mother Earth Spriituality" and drumming up 'business' and stories to include in the book.  

Do you know of Arlo Omaha from Rosebud?

I am happy to answer any questions that could help someone else.

Respectfully,
pattyz