Author Topic: George Price & Quaker Sweatlodge  (Read 24751 times)

Offline NOVA SCOTIA MIKMAQS

  • Posts: 8
  • MR AND MRS JAY
    • THE MIKMAQROOM
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2007, 06:06:09 pm »
SEEMS TO ME THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE STARTING A NEW RELIGION, BASED ON THEIR RULES ONLY, TRYING TO AUTHENTICATE IT USING OUR CULTURE, GAINING NOTORIETY TO THE POOR FOOLS THAT DONT KNOW ANY BETTER...I WISH THEY WOULD STOP HITCH-HIKING OUR WAYS AND FIND THEIR OWN CULTURE AND BELIEFS!! THEY WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO FIND THEMSELVES USING OUR CULTURAL BELIEFS, BECAUSE WHAT THEYRE DOING ISNT WHAT WE BELIEVE IN!! IT'S AGAINST ALL THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE!!ARE YOU ALSO AFRAID TO USE YOUR OWN BELIEFS AND CULTURE BECAUSE IT ALSO TELLS YOU WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS WRONG ALSO? WHEN ARE ALL YOU POOR LOST SOULS  GONNA WAKE UP?I HOPE SOON THAT THE MORE YOU USE OUR CULTURE, THE MORE YOU WILL FIND TEACHINGS THAT STOP YOU DEAD IN YOUR TRACKS, AND FIND COMMON SENSE IN YOURSELVES.THEN AND ONLY THEN CAN YOU REACH YOUR INNER SELF AND BE PROUD TO BE WHO YOU ARE, AND YOUR OWN TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS. SO KEEP UP THE FRAUDULANT STUFF!! THE MORE YOU TRY TO STEAL, THE MORE YOULL BE HEARING FROM US. LISTEN TO OUR WORDS!! TAKE HEED AND FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS THAT ARE COMING FROM US!! MAYBE IT WILL SINK IN SOONER OR LATER AND WHEN IT HAPPENS, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL YOU BE YOUR TRUE SELF!!

ANNE MARIE
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 06:26:53 pm by NOVA SCOTIA MIKMAQS »
ANNE MARIE MARCHAND

Offline nahualqo

  • Posts: 57
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2007, 11:34:52 pm »
I have a friend of mine, a California Native American that has worshipped with Native Americans worshipping in the Quaker or Shaker mode. I have emailed him and asked him to participate in this question. I know that when I was a young man in the Pacific Northwest the Shakers had a large Native American following in the State of Washington and many, many Natives were converted to the Native American Shakers. It was called the longhouse tradition. I talked with some of them as a young adult and many of them felt that they had the best of both worlds. At the time I was seeking traditional knowlege and felt that it was a betrayal of our original relationship with our identity and our ancestors let alone betrayal of our beliefs.

frederica

  • Guest
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2007, 03:42:51 pm »
 Hello and welcome. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Quakers and Shakers are completely different groups. I don't think the Indian Shaker Church is even related to the New England Shakers. What I remember is the Indian Shaker Church is Traditional Longhouse and Christian (mainly Roman Catholic) mix. You have to remember it is not about the Quaker Society as a whole, but rather an individual who says he is a Quaker, what he does, who he aligns himself with, and how he drags his feet when asked to take it down.  frederica

Offline debbieredbear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1494
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2007, 06:43:14 pm »
You are correct, Frederica. the Indian Shaker religion was started by a Squaxin Island man, John Slocum. It has elements of Catholicism and traditional Native beliefs (Smokehouse). There are 3 branches of Indian Shakers, but the founding church is still in Mud Bay Washington which id near Olympia. My husband's grandfather was a Shaker minister and my husband has many relatives who are Shaker. It is very different then Quaker religin. VERY different.

Offline NOVA SCOTIA MIKMAQS

  • Posts: 8
  • MR AND MRS JAY
    • THE MIKMAQROOM
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2007, 05:28:22 pm »
HELLO...IM  INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT WHAT SHAKER RELIGION IS ALL ABOUT? SEE, I HAVENT HEARD OF THESE RELIGIONS AND AM INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE???AS WELL, WHATS QUAKER RELIGION?

THANKS, ANNE
ANNE MARIE MARCHAND

Offline debbieredbear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1494
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2007, 09:29:36 pm »
Hi Anne,

It would be hard for me to tell you a whole lot about Indian Shakers because I am not one of them. But basically, in the late 1800's, a man named John Slocum died for three days (3 being a very special number around here) and when he came back to life he said he had seen God. And he said that God wanted him to live a btter life and to be a better person. In the praying they do, his wife began to shake which is called "getting the power" and that was where the shaker name came from. My friend, who is also my husand's cousin, told me that the Shaker religion was also a way to save the traditional beliefs called "Smokehouse" or Ceowyn. There are Shakers down to northern California and east to Idaho. THey do not use drums but instead ring bells when they sing. Many people who are not Shaker will go to them for healing. I have been myself. Here are a few links:
http://www.squaxinisland.org/frames.html?pages/mlrc/shaker/shaker.html~siteContent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Shaker_Church
www.wshs.org/wshs/research/finding_aids/ms29.pdf
http://www.amazon.com/John-Slocum-Indian-Shaker-Church/dp/0806128658

Offline doncampbell

  • Posts: 1
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2007, 12:54:22 pm »
Hi all,

I am new to this site, but I find it refreshing. Not a lot of ranting.

I am also a Quaker....and I agree with Joe? that all to often there is a patronizing do-gooding smugness about my 'people'. I also note a genius about processing hard issues. In a day of instant response, we tend to go very sdlowly to make sure we understand things (well, as well as we can anyway) and that our response enjoys the support of the whole local meeting.

I also know many of the principals in the 'sweat lodge issue'. I know of native people who have quietly supported this work, some of whom are deeply connected to their own traditions, and I certainly know of, and have avoided, plastic shamans.

The FGC organization, which is not a governing body in any sense, has placed a moratorium/ban on sweat lodges for now. The 'for now' means that there is not unity among all Friends. We have a lot of work to do to achieve that unity, whatever we conclude. The effort is to respect all of us, both for and against, while we come to 'clearness' as we call it.

I am sure you know the danger of snap decisions and the problems top down control can cause. Quakers are very good at allowing time for a concern to be 'seasoned'.

My Dad. not a Quaker, once told me that pretty much every religion and political group had probably one or two great strenths or pieces of wisdom, and likewise one or two great flaws. He cautioned me not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

So, to the nub. I believe that this coming to Friends is a vewry good thing. Why? Because mainstream folks have all sense of reverence for the land they live on and have probably the most poorly developed sense of what respect means. Quakers, at least, can appreciate the importance of the questions, even if they don't get the meat.

Anyway, I hope that byu holding our feet to the fire internally, we can get to some of thesemore fundamental issues. In fact, that is one of George Price's concerns, too.

We mainstreamers have a huge chasm to cross to get healed, frow up, whatever you want to call it. We will certainly blunder rudely as we have, and worse, but we still need to heal and grow up, and everyone else needs us to do that successfully.

While Native People may challenge some things we do, and rightfully, please also hold us in your prayers for the deep soul healing we need.

Anyway, I just hope for more growth and more wisdom. Thanks all for expressing yourselves. I keep growing.

Don

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 682
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2007, 12:25:55 am »
Hi Doncampbell

Your thoughtful heartfelt post seems to have gotten lost amoungst all the serious nut bars that have come through here lately .

Don
Quote
I also know many of the principals in the 'sweat lodge issue'. I know of native people who have quietly supported this work, some of whom are deeply connected to their own traditions, and I certainly know of, and have avoided, plastic shamans.

I also have known Elders who were respected within the Native community and who were open to non native friends or family members participating in some ( but not all ) traditional ceremonies .

What I have never seen, is Native Elders who think it is a good idea for non native people to lead traditional ceremonies outside of a Native community . I am sure there are a few eccentric individuals who think this is OK ,  but from what I have seen the vast majority of traditional people feel that type of " sharing " is not right . This often gets attributed to lingering anger at White people  , and sometimes that is probably a factor , but there is also reasons which have nothing to do with this at all.

As I understand it , removing traditional ceremonies from the balance provided by a knowledgable Native community , and removing traditional ceremonines from the context of a lineage which goes back into the past , and the responsibilities of carrying this forward into the future , is basicly the cause , of the MANY  problems you see listed here .

Personally I admire what I know of the Quakers past efforts to support human rights , and though I am sure we all have some room for improvement , I have quite a bit of respect for Quakers . Or I did until I saw the people mentioned above , who appear to be affiliated with Quakers, selling Sweat Lodge Ceremonies and Vision Quests ...

Thats really disgusting .

That is sort of like charging people at the door,  to sit in your meetings in the presence of God . Do Quakers do that ? Wouldn't you find that really offensive ?  It is exactly this tendancy for Sacred traditions to be abused like this ,  that has so many Native people oppposed to " sharing" . Are these people really doing this as a part of the Quaker organization ?  Why is this desecration happening  if there was a moratorium put on using traditional ceremonies?

Don
Quote
The FGC organization, which is not a governing body in any sense, has placed a moratorium/ban on sweat lodges for now. The 'for now' means that there is not unity among all Friends. We have a lot of work to do to achieve that unity, whatever we conclude. The effort is to respect all of us, both for and against, while we come to 'clearness' as we call it.

I can see it would be really confusing to on one hand feel you had been welcomed and even invited to have a Sweatlodge Ceremony as a part of Quaker get togethers , but then on the other hand discover many Native people were feeling really violated and upset by this . I have seen other situations where this has happened and I understand it can be really distressing for people to be told they stole something they thought was a gift, and that whatever good came to them from the experince was wrong . Personally I don't think it is all black or white .

We all have a lot of work to do in finding a balance again . As long as people are sincerely trying to be respectful , I don't see this as anyone being "wrong" .

But to not listen to the concerns of many Native people and to continue to use a traditional ceremony in a way many Native people feel is offensive , would be wrong . I am glad the FGC has done the right thing and put a moratorium on this , ( except for the apparent Quaker people selling ceremonies )  I appreciate the strength of character it took to do this, when there is so many people pushing to dismiss Native concerns .
 
Don
Quote
My Dad. not a Quaker, once told me that pretty much every religion and political group had probably one or two great strenths or pieces of wisdom, and likewise one or two great flaws. He cautioned me not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
You know , in many Native traditions the Sweat lodge is ONLY used in healing , and I mean serious life and death sort of healing , not a weekly way to get together with friends in an intimate environment to share Prayers.  There are many traditional people who don't agree , even with Native people using the Sweat Lodge like it is a place to have weekly Church meetings .

So here is what I am really curious about ... What is the metaphorical baby that people don't want to throw out ?

What is it about a Sweat Lodge ceremony that Quaker young people have gotten so attached to it ?

Whatever this need is , could it be explored to see if it is showing an area where some healing and improvement in Quaker traditions could happen ?

What I am wondering is  , isn't there other ways these same needs can be met , that would keep Native traditions within the balance provided by a Native community and wouldn't involve the bad feeling that result from misappropriating another cultures ceremonies ?

« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 12:31:13 am by Moma_porcupine »

Lord-of-Disco

  • Guest
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2007, 09:59:35 pm »
Cultural appropriation extends to misrepresentation, but not much further. No one owns wisdom, or knowledge, or even techniques such as building a temporary building and throwing some water on some hot stones.

If someone dresses up as an Indian, or an Englishman, or a Chinese man to pretend to be a kung fu expert, well, the wise wil laugh, and the not so wise will be angry. BFD. Seriously, BFD. Slaves to identity, defending nothing. I can guarantee that somewhere, some seriously wise old Indian, who had nothign in common wth other Indians other than he is an Indian, and who has far more in common with that far smaller, far more selct group of people across the planet who are wise, is laughing his arse off at people clinging to surface form, whilst rejecting subtle nuance of wisdom, compassion, and not taking shit too seriously. I mean, seriously, I can guanrantee it.

If Quakers wnat ot dress up as Indians or do a sweat, why would that bother anyone who had an actual life? Gee, I guess this is trolling, i.e. people with differing opinions expressing them. Funny...

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

  • Posts: 869
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2007, 10:35:59 pm »
Gee, I guess this is trolling, i.e. people with differing opinions expressing them.

That's nearly right, hippie: idiots thinking we need to hear their opinions is trolling. Now get back under your bridge.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 10:39:43 pm by Barnaby_McEwan »

weheli

  • Guest
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2007, 11:05:25 pm »
Lordy,
I agree that some "wise old indian man" would be laughing his behind off, at you!!! You are full of wind and hot air, one coming out of one end the other out of the other ;D!!!

An inipi isn't "just hot rocks with water poured over them". Your knowledge and disrespect for others is ignorance and that is an ABSOLUTE!!!! Your words says this.

What is your purpose on this forum???? The way you speak about American Indian cultures and ceremonies shows disrespect and no knowledge. Why are you here?
                                                                         Weheli


Offline Barnaby_McEwan

  • Posts: 869
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2007, 06:55:09 am »
Lord-of-Disco, you caught me at a bad moment earlier: sorry about that. If you want to continue posting here you must find a more respectful way to say what you want to say. In particular, you must remember that you don't get to tell Indians what's important or not about spiritual matters.

Offline NanticokePiney

  • Posts: 191
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2008, 12:54:17 am »
 This discussion was brought up again at 'meeting for business' at PYM (the Philadelphia Yearly Meeting). Chuck has lost all respect from Indians that are active with the Meeting then lost the respect of the PYM itself. The PYM will never authorize sweatlodges again.

 Peace- Rich

 FYI- He's a dipshit! 

Offline Smart Mule

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1138
Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2019, 02:46:05 pm »
Holy crow, these are still going on https://www.facebook.com/groups/quakersweat/


Offline educatedindian

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4740
Re: George Price & Quaker Sweatlodge
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2019, 09:50:31 pm »
Yes, but this is a different group. The original website was taken down after criticisms. Thread's been re titled.

This group is led by a George Price.
https://www.facebook.com/stonelodge
"I am a Quaker blues harmonica player who leads sweat lodges.
Production coordinator at Music at Snipes Farm
Studied School of Social Work, MSW at Rutgers
Studied Native American History and Culture at University of New Mexico
Studied Film & Media Studies at Bucks County Community College
Lives in Morrisville, Pennsylvania
From Oaks, Pennsylvania"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/quakersweat/about/
"Quaker Sweat Lodge is an adaptation of the spiritual steam baths of many cultures including of Native American, Finnish, Celtic, Russian, and Edo.  We have been celebrating it for 27 years.  Quaker Sweats have taken place in over 10 states and on or near many college and university campus' and camps as well as at Snipes Farm in Morrisville PA. 
It is not a Native American Sweat Lodge although George Price, who leads the Quaker Sweat, has a bachelors degee in Native American History and Culture and has also studied with several traditional Native American teachers."