Author Topic: Re: Discussion with Moma P  (Read 54723 times)

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2008, 04:02:00 am »
Ric , as I have said before , I'm sorry if our different understandings and concerns offended you . I already acknowledged this in another thread.

My first post in this forum was on the subject of the sale of sage and sweet grass. You joined in this discussion, to present a different point of view. When I began this thread i had no idea you had plans to sell this as a business. So my concerns about this had nothing at all to do with "you" . IMO if anyone was personally attacked in this thread it was me

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=580.0;all

When you started a thread on your business , I will admit my question asking if this was a fancy way of selling sweetgrass, was rude , but in the discussion in the above thread, the only thing that you talked about specifically, was selling sweetgrass, so it was an honest misunderstanding . When you explained what you were doing, I agreed most of what you planned to sell sounded entirely positive.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=877.0
   
The next discussion we had I asked a bunch of questions trying to clarify how it should be decided what parts of cultural traditions can be sold if people that culture belongs to don't agree.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=412.0;all

To discredit me, you are putting meaning into what was said that was not there. Whether you honestly heard this in your own mind or whether you are just twisting my words into he ugliest possible interpretation to make me look bad I won't bother guessing ,  but I do feel you are misrepresenting what I said.   

Why? I have shown ample proof in on line links there really is many traditional people who believe sage and sweetgrass should not be sold. I am not just making this up . Why do I deserve to be criticized and attacked by you for remembering these teachings?

I did not learn this on the internet, as you keep trying to suggest to further discredit me, but I did try to find references to this on the internet as I don't expect anyone to just take my word for this.

Not once have you acknowledged that there are many traditional people and Elders who are uncomfortable to see this being sold.

Instead, you have posted here 123 times , mainly talking about integrating traditional knowledge with a modern economy . Sometimes you announce to the world you are Metis and occaisionally you say someone else isn't. Sometimes you contribute a helpful piece of local information. In response to my direct questions about where you draw the line on the issue of selling something some traditional people say should not be sold, you have assured me that you don't ever believe ceremonies should be commercialize.

I'm not saying I don't find what you contribute here helpful, and except for our personal dispute you seem like a nice enough person , but I do notice that in all of these 123 posts only once do i see where you have felt to say anything that might be interpreted as opposing people selling ceremonies , teachings or Medicines.  ( except in response to me directly asking where you stand )

This comment can be found here;

"But people never donate enough"
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2006, 11:13:02 am »    
Ric
Quote
Tansi;

When my Grandmother would be asked to provide her special form of assistance, the people asking for help would send a buggy to pick her up and take her to where she was needed.  When she arrived, and until she was finished, she was fed and given a place to sleep and work.  Afterwards, she was returned to her home, with Gifts that would help to provide for her daily needs.

In modern terms, this can be translated as transportation, meals and accommodation as well as something for her time, experience and knowledge.

In Saskatchewan, there are a number of First Nation communities who provide finances for Traditional Healers to come to their communities to work with their particular Gifts. At some of these, medical forms are required for payment and the term "health practitioner" is crossed off, and replaced with "Traditional Healer."  Many of the people attending will also give gifts to the Healers, often including money, as well as blankets, tobacco and other items.

These are some of the ways that our First Nations communities are dealing with the modern realities, which include the need for money to provide for the needs of those who they consider Gifted with Traditional Healing Ways.
From your behavior I am guessing your main interest in being here is exploring how to integrate traditional knowledge into a modren economy, and I also understand you have an interest in Native people retaining the right to do this for their own benifit .

For the most part I really respect your position, and i am willing to believe you honestly want what you see as best for your community. But I also have the right to bring attention to the traditional people who feel uncomfortable by the sale of some of the things you want to include in your buisness plans , and I shouldn't have to have my words or motives twisted into something ugly for doing this .

You talk about how I have offended you. Do you have any idea how offensive your continued attack on me for remebering teachings I recieved from Elders could be, if I was inclined to take offence?  The thing is, I'm not. We are all here to exchange ideas and learn, and i don't see the point.

On the internet I try to speak clearly and address the issues. In real life I am usually much less direct. I just don't see the point in beating around the bush on the issues we are trying to discuss here in cyberspace.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 04:32:17 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline earthw7

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2008, 02:11:28 pm »
I really feel at a loss here!

Maybe it is spring fever

Moma porcupine
I hope that you will continue your work
to help the people.

In life we find that people tend to attack their own
when they are stressed.

I am not saying who is right or wrong in this post
but it makes me sad that we would attack our own members.

Are we going to become like those messages board that just
attack each other or does this site have meaning?

I for one I am proud to a member of this site and honored to know
all of you.

Oh and this blackwater groups looks like frauds to me
In Spirit

Offline Ric_Richardson

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2008, 03:09:24 pm »
Tansi;

My post was meant to be a Respectful way of encouraging the use of Respect, overall, in discussions held here.  As this thread was about an individual who is good at doing internet research, this research should be balanced with Life experience and I hoped to encourage the use of Respect, to balance the valuable research undertaken.

My own life experiences influence everything that I speak of and many of these have much to do with having been active for several decades, in working toward ensuring that Cultural sustainability is a part of any progress, especially when we are becoming more involved with the modern society.

I, originally only PM'd two of the administrators of this forum with my concerns about this anonomous individual, but when it was suggested that I put my opinion, which I truly felt was done in a Respectful manner, in the thread on M Porcupine, I did.

Not living in or near cities, there is only so much that I see of the frauds that are exposed here, but I have met some, so contributed in sharing my own experiences with some of them.  Since I do see that there are some who use the name of my Culture, in committing fraudulent activity, I have tried to show the facts of who we are, as people of the Metis Nation. 

I also agree with earth7, in encouraging the very important work of exposing frauds, but with Respect. 

Ric

 

« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 03:11:19 pm by Ric_Richardson »

frederica

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2008, 06:49:33 pm »
Part of the problem is probably using a computer to disagree.  You cannot see the other person, and only have to rely on words on a page.  From what I remember it was a split-decision, as people could see both sides. It went on a little to long, but that's just me. I don't think it was disrespectful, but it would never be settled, as far as both had their own ideas.  I thought Rick's, his elders, and community would do the right thing. The rest was just one trying to convince the other. Sometimes they do, sometimes they do not. I wouldn't take it personal, people can only control themselves, not others. And opinions are just opinions they can change like everything else. I can see both sides, but there is so many variables no one will come out a  complete winner in that type of discussion.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2008, 07:28:21 pm »
One thing about cyberspace is that we don't know each other or see what peoples relationship is with their community. If this could be seen a lot of questions that get asked here would be unnecesary, and concerns would be discussed with Elders who would take care of it. I can see the type of questions that get asked here would be really disrespectful if they were asked in this way of a person who could be seen to be respected in a Native community , but on line there are hundreds of people making claims of this, and the only way people can verify this is by asking direct questions.

I think we all do our best, and probably most of us have areas we don't see as clearly as we could, and sometimes maybe we make mistakes. I know I certainly do. One of the things I appreciate about this message board, is that it provides many different points of view and gives us all a opprotunity to consider this. Circumstances and traditions are different in different places , and there is often no clear agreement on how traditional culture can survive in a modren world. Sometimes these disagreements are a bit intense. But I think the conversations that happen here are educational and informative and that is all for the good.

I do feel for people like Ric, who post under their real name, as I can see that when something is controversial having your own role in this examined would feel a lot more intense. I will try to be more sensitive to that in the future. At the same time, when people post here , and their activities are controversial i think it is important that we can discuss that . Even if we can't reach an agreement it probably helps the people who read the discussions here to understand why sometimes there seems to be different opinions on things. I really believe that  informed people are probably are better equiped to make healthy choices, even if things are sometimes not black and white.

I really appreciate all the voices here, even the ones I disagree with most intensly , and I really appreciate that the moderators have been patient with all this.  I don't mean to create divisions.

I don't know if Al has kids, but if he does, I imagine after this message board he will be ready for teenagers.  LOL

frederica

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2008, 07:36:08 pm »
We're all human, we disagree and agree, wouldn't it be boring if we were all alike and thought the same.

Offline Ric_Richardson

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2008, 02:09:40 pm »
Tansi;

As a person who was raised to be Proud of who I am, I was taught that, if I have an opinion, I would only weaken and demean that opinion if I only wrote anonomous letters or made anonomous statements.  This is the reason that I chose to use the name that my parents chose for me, when I post in this forum.

The reason that I came to this forum, is that I have an interest in what I have seen in activities surrounding the promotion and sharing of our Cultures, which has been the subject of various fraudulent activities by a number of people, both in North America and overseas. 

In general, I support the activities of many who post here, anonomously or otherwise, as there is often a common goal of identifying and exposing some very serious frauds, who continue to promote stereotyping or even more dangerous activities.  I do not feel qualified to speak about issues that I do not have a personal connection to, so I do tend to mainly speak about situations that I have been involved with and Metis identity and the abuse of the term "Metis" when it is used by those with no connection to our people, but by people who use this term in attempts to gain credibility for activities that do not help our people, but that may allow others to assume a false impression about the Metis.  As I do have very solid connections to other Aboriginal people, both Status and non-status, with my own family as well as those not related to me, I will also contribute to discussions related to things that I have seen or experienced, in this context.

I do know that, even if someone were to gather all of the things written about me, on the internet, they would still not have a very good understanding of who I am.  Most of what has been written about me was not written by me and often there are misquotes or other inaccurate information, as is common with the written word. 

I do not avoid debate, but encourage this to be done in a Respectful manner.  I was taught that the only people who are not controversial are those who do nothing.

Ric



« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 02:33:56 pm by Ric_Richardson »

Offline Kevin

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2008, 03:20:03 pm »
I've heard a rumor that MP is 1/2 Hidatsa

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2008, 04:11:35 pm »
mmmm I heard a rumor I am a pasty white complexioned teenager in Kentucky. Supposedly my acne is so bad I never go out of my Mom's basemnet ...

And there is another rumor that i am a middle aged European with a bad attitude and a big mouth.

On a more serious note, on line it's impossible to know who people are, or what peoples personal circumstances are, but some people would be truely endangered by having identifying information posted on the web. Unless people post information on line about themselves, or there is good reason to believe someone is a serious danger to the public, it probably isn't a good idea to decide it is OK to put personal inforamtion out there for them. As for my own situation, whether I would actually be harmed if i was identified is hard to say, but , I honestly would not feel safe to have anything posted about me that I did not put on line about myself. So I would ask that people don't assume it is OK to do this irregardless of my own wishes , just because they find me annoying

If someone guesses wrong it just spreads silly rumors and if someone guesses right it could truely endanger me.

As i don't make any claims that need to be verified, and I don't link what I do here to any other activities websites, projects,  products or services that involve the public trust, and as an anonymous person , except for what happens publicly on NAFPS as Moma_porcupine ,  I don't peronally gain anything from posting, I don't see what public benefit might come from guessing who I am or spreading rumors.

For this reason I would ask that Kevin remove the rumor / speculation about my identity from his comment.

I'm just someone who has been impacted in some way or ways by what is discussed here , and apparently i have rather a lot to say about it ...

Probably sometimes it is a bit more than people want to read ...

frederica

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2008, 04:36:09 pm »
Everyone must be bored from the weekend. Trying to get something started.

Offline ska

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2008, 05:26:19 pm »
Rumor-mongering?  OK, here's one .

I've heard Moma Porcupine is from one of the  human nations.  Being gifted with a bulls--t detector, she has chosen to use her powers of discernment for good, not evil.

ska

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2008, 05:45:04 pm »
Ska
Quote
I've heard Moma Porcupine is from one of the  human nations. 

Noooo  ...  don't tell me I'm not really a Porcupine ...How can you know that for sure .. I bet you are just one of those mean people who enjoys running over Porcupines and making them flat as a pancake ...

And then I bet you stop and point and say " See not a Porcupine at all- too flat"

Mean mean mean ...

LOL

No I'm not bored today ...




frederica

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2008, 06:06:50 pm »
No Moma, Figured  Kevins just trying to be funny.

Offline ska

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2008, 08:16:39 pm »
"I've heard Moma Porcupine is from one of the  human nations"

Okay, moma, you've outed me.  I've been running with a bad crowd - academics!  And you know what humanists they are, hence my rush to assume your anthropomorphic form ;).




Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2008, 10:58:35 pm »
Moma is a flying porcupine who shoots lasers from her eyes, scanning the Internet for evil-doers while mere humanoid lifeforms sleep.

What?