NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: educatedindian on May 12, 2008, 08:08:16 pm
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It seems as though Granny has thrown a fit and is now doing her best to try to undermine other groups that NAFPS works with, such as American Indian Injustice. She posted a long rambling piece of libel in here that was tossed away, and then reposted it in AIJ.
Here's my response, which I asked someone who is also a member of AIJ to post over there.
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Granny has NOT been banned from NAFPS. And that is being incredibly generous since she has seen fit to gather up most of the libel put out about NAFPS and myself by one spiritual exploiter and dubious character after another.
Even worse, she chose to repeat lies put out by white supremacist David Yeagley and his supporters about me. Why she chose to believe such bizarre and obvious falsehoods, and even spread them far and wide, is something she should be ashamed of, and needs to explain.
No, she has not been banned, even after her repeatedly abusive behavior, exploding in anger and attacking one member of NAFPS after another without reason. Just the opposite, she's been given the benefit of the doubt because I've known her a long time online through groups such as Ancient Native Heritage and its powwow group.
She is just temporarily not allowed to post, in the hopes that she will regain her senses, calm down, and grow up. She has been allowed to get away with behavior that no one else would have been, again, because I knew her online for so long and once had respect for her.
I respected her when she took on exploiters, when she spoke up for her people, and when she took on Yeagley and his fellow racists, getting herself banned in the process.
I have a hard time understanding now why she chooses to believe every lie out about NAFPS, and spread them further. Heck, she doesn't even get my name right. She gets it wrong repeatedly, and she can't even tell the difference between ceremony selling and my going over to Europe to give speeches AGAINST ceremony selling.
She can't even tell the difference between the 600 Indian members of NAFPS and a couple of members of the "Blackwater Band", a heritage group of people with distant descent from Muscogees that is not recognized by the actual Muscogee, who go over to Europe and hand out honorary memberships to Germans and claim to be ambassadors for a tribe that is not even a real tribe.
This is not right, and she needs to own up to all the harm she is doing. She owes myself and NAFPS an apology.
A few members of Blackwater do some good, and Granny herself used to do what is good and right. It's just a shame they spend so much energy attacking without cause over 600 Indians fighting the good fight over at NAFPS. And that includes working with members of American Indian Injustice, fighting frauds like Rachel Holzwarth and working to support honored elders like Bernard Red Cherries in these struggles.
Al Carroll
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I am suprised with all the problems Thomas and Helen have had, they would even let her post that. As it was clearly off the wall so to speak.
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http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=2809487911
A while back I noticed wredgranny is on line friends with Steve Stonebear ( supposedly he was or is the Principal Chief of the Nation of The United Cherokee Nation )
A thread is on him here;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=732.msg9907#msg9907
( begins reply #12 )
I see she is also friends with Bear Warrior (he was or is one of the so called Chiefs of the The United People of the Cherokee Nation ). A thread about that group with some posts from him is here ;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=802.0;all
Bear Warrior was also friend of Ravens , and Raven was also involved in speaking out against frauds but then attacked NAFPS and got involved supporting John Lekay.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=835.msg7266#msg7266
(see reply #24 )
This might not be what is going on with wredgranny, but it seems that doing activist work can be some mixed blood peoples way of trying to establish an identity as a Native person , and when these people have to choose between their questionable friends who accept them as Native , and what traditional Elders and Leaders say , ( or even just common sense ) they will often choose to support their friends .
I do notice it is me being skeptical of some groups that claim to be, or claim to represent Native people that seems to upset her.
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edited to add ;
I guess for people who haven't been following this , I should give people links to the threads where this disagreement happened.
wredgranny's first post was here. In the Tribal America thread . Her post here was about tribal America not me.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1439.0
All the rest of her posts are in the threads below;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0;all
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1735.0
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1739.0;all
In this thread above , I mention she has posted 12 times but it seems 3 posts were deleted. I'm not sure where they were . One was in the Blackwater Muskokee thread.
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Red Granny - what a name!
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educatedindian
No, she has not been banned, even after her repeatedly abusive behavior, exploding in anger and attacking one member of NAFPS after another without reason
Below is a link to the webpage with her complaint against NAFPS.
I think this is probably the reason my doubts and questions made her mad , and probably why she doesn't like NAFPS.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Native_American_Issues_Causes/message/16082
WRedGranny
We,are an ancient,loving,giving Peoples,it has always been more important to HELP others,than make sure SELF is seen as important. We,care about our Mother Earth,our Skies(air),our Waters,our animal kin,our Elders,our children,we HONOR Creator THROUGH our Ceremonies,dance,song,prayers. We,reach outr to make other feel better,to give them hope,to share the stories that many through the bad times lost,and we KNOW,there are those of mixed bloods,whose families ran,hid,and tried hard to live as the others for their CHILDRENS lives. When,and where we can,we reach out to them,help- them find their kin/connections,and yet we also watch that Ceremony,tradition,and family are kept safe from those who wish only to make money,steal the names/heritage of our Nations to do so,and it is as it should be. But,we do NOT disrespect,and mistreat each other,no matter what Nation,and until it is proven that one making claims is NOT of that Nation,(even Chad Smith admitted there were Tsalagi cousins who could NEVER be enrolled as their ancest5ors REFUSED to be listed like a pedigree animal on the "Rolls" for fear they could be tracked in this way and killed) but they are STILL blood kin. The "Rolls" were set up to define "Blood Quantum" in one more effort at genocide,as they knew(the whites) each generation would hold less and less quantum,until the "government" could declare there was no such thing as a REAL Blood Indian,unless we inter married,and that too held not only dangers,but was forbidden. So, WHO is Al Carroll,and what is his place in all this,he has repeatedly allowed his Euros to DEMAND we "prove" who and what we are,it is time HE,and they do the same. Or,stop disrespecting REAL First Peoples,and allow us to define ourselves WITHOUT their (tender) mercies they have shown us,like their ancestors,they feel their "Manifest Destiny" gives them the RIGHT,we,are finding our OWN voice again,we have proved we can unite ALL Nations to defend ourselves,FIGHT on my kin,I am so very proud to have lived long enough to see these days. For my grandchildren,and for you own,we CAN do this!
many blessings granny
So I guess this is what upsets her. She has mentioned her strong feelings about distant descendants right to claim themselves as Indians, in her other posts as well .
What seems odd is that she has so quickly gone on the offensive . Especially as i have a lot of sympathy towards PODIAs ... The only thing I don't agree with , is when it gets into entitlements, and letting peoples small amount of Native blood be used in a political way to confuse and undermine the identites and soverienty of recognized tribes.
If that is lost, PODIAs won't have anything.
Personally , if it was me, I would sure rather my grandkids have a strong tribal community to sometimes connect with , and can sometimes meet real Elders, but have no entitlements , than a world full of lost people trying to recreate what they imagine was Indian culture because their gr gr gr grandma was Cherokee... .
As I see it without the tribes that are strong enough to have been federally recognized , being a reference point in this , anti Indian groups such as One Nation and these so called tribes that declare "everybody with a drop of Indian blood is an Indian " , are heading towards exactly the same goal , assimilation and the extinguishment of tribal Nations as distinct cultures, communities and political entities.
But that is just my own point of view...
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Moma, I not exactly sure where she is coming from. She seems not to be able to seperate people who exploit from those just finding their culture. The majority of people claiming heritage are just and only doing that. They want nothing except to learn. They are not selling arts and crafts and not claiming to be something they are not, like a medicine person. There are many that are active in helping, the rest just are interested in learning. I don't think I know of anyone that has a problem with that. The Nuage era has brought about an overwelming number of people that now mix Indian Ceremonies with the Nuage, Eastern Religions, and whatever else they do. And of course, they charge large sums of money for the same. It becomes corrupt. But you already know all this. But I do know much of the information off the TN list is not reliable, that is from last year when TS, and another were sending out dirt from that mess. And the woman they are quoting has been called down before for posting bad information and having to pull it down. So a lot of the dirt is just what it is just plain gossip dirt. But if she wants to support the Brooke Medicine Shield, Mary Thunders, and White Ego Woman there is not much anyone can do about it.
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Mama PO, Frederica: Respect and being respectful is one of the Hallmarks of being from a Native American Culture. When someone violates this principle I want to understand why. I will watch and investigate. This may be only a temporary lapse due to some circumstance within the persons life and may naturally correct itself. If the person seems to be truly out of balance further watching and or investigation may be necessary. After as much information as can be obtained is found this information is turned over to the Tribe, Nation, or Group to which this person is affiliated. It is then the Council and Elders responsibility to rectify the situation. It has been my experience that acting in this way gets results. Of course this only works if the person is affiliated with a recognized entity. If they are not than they meet the definition of fraud, do they not, and should be reported as such. Two cents offered with respect "LittleOldMan"
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I agree that most people wanting to learn or heal their connection with the indigenous part of their heritage are good people, and that is one of the reasons I don't like to see people make outrageously extravagant claims of entitlement - because it creates so much mistrust and hostility towards PODIAs. In my opinion the only place this reconnection can truly happen , is with a strong continuosly existing tribal community. Tribal Nations already have a hard enough time having their rights and existence recognized by mainstream America , without having this confused by distant descendants making grandious claims.
I do believe everybodys real needs deserve respect, just not necesarrily how they go about trying to meet these needs . Often there is a better way.
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My colleague is 1/8th Choctaw. He doesn't go around pretending to be an Indian but he does advocate for NA issues and he reads alot and learns. He doesn't seem to want to change who and what he is. There is a big difference between being diluted and deluded.
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I agree with you LOM, usually time will tell. Usually things can be worked out without the unprovoked fllaming you see on the internet. But the attempt to control everything with disrespect always takes me back, and makes me wonder.
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Wredgranny on May 12, 2008
So, WHO is Al Carroll,and what is his place in all this,he has repeatedly allowed his Euros to DEMAND we "prove" who and what we are,it is time HE,and they do the same. Or,stop disrespecting REAL First Peoples,and allow us to define ourselves WITHOUT their (tender) mercies they have shown us,like their ancestors,they feel their "Manifest Destiny" gives them the RIGHT,we,are finding our OWN voice again,we have proved we can unite ALL Nations to defend ourselves,FIGHT on my kin,I am so very proud to have lived long enough to see these days. For my grandchildren,and for you own,we CAN do this!
many blessings granny
For someone demanding to know who Al Carroll is and what right he or his "Euros" have to question anyone, Granny sure hasn't been forthcoming with who she really is. It's one thing to refuse to give your real name or what Nation you're from and another to pretend to be something you aren't. All the badgering Moma has endured about what Nation she's from is really unnecessary. She hasn't pretended to be anything. She doesn't come across as "speaking for" any Nation, group, or organization. The same can be said for Al. The only cause they speak for is truth, and I wasn't aware ethnicity mattered when you're fighting for truth. Granny, on the other hand, calls herself a Cherokee Elder and writes like she's 80. In reality she's a 50 year-old blonde. I don't have anything against 50 year-old women or blondes, but don't pretend to be something you aren't. Calling yourself 'granny' doesn't make you an Elder.
No one on NAFPS has been disrespectful. Yes, I did call that one thread 'crazy' and a few of the posters 'ridiculous', cause it was and they were. Those were about the most respectful terms I could find for the nonsense. Nothing in the posts Granny has made here on NAFPS or on other websites could be called respectful by any stretch of the imagination.
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"So I guess this is what upsets her. She has mentioned her strong feelings about distant descendants right to claim themselves as Indians, in her other posts as well .
What seems odd is that she has so quickly gone on the offensive . Especially as i have a lot of sympathy towards PODIAs ... The only thing I don't agree with , is when it gets into entitlements, and letting peoples small amount of Native blood be used in a political way to confuse and undermine the identites and soverienty of recognized tribes.
If that is lost, PODIAs won't have anything.
Personally , if it was me, I would sure rather my grandkids have a strong tribal community to sometimes connect with , and can sometimes meet real Elders, but have no entitlements , than a world full of lost people trying to recreate what they imagine was Indian culture because their gr gr gr grandma was Cherokee... .
As I see it without the tribes that are strong enough to have been federally recognized , being a reference point in this , anti Indian groups such as One Nation and these so called tribes that declare "everybody with a drop of Indian blood is an Indian " , are heading towards exactly the same goal , assimilation and the extinguishment of tribal Nations as distinct cultures, communities and political entities.
But that is just my own point of view...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 09:39:22 pm by Moma_porcupine » "
Unega,nothing that you say,upset me,lol, [Childish Insult],I and most others could care less what you think of PODIAS, or our Peoples,in truth you are [Childish insult] You would not KNOW a "true" Cultural Lesson,if it bite you. I speak when and where I see need,I am not anyone "pet indian",and my connection you may guess about to times end,your choice,my knowledge.
granny
[Childish insults and a spam post removed. Any others will be too. Kindly grow up.]
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Hi wredgranny
I saw this posted over on your multiplicity website
http://wredgranny814.multiply.com/journal/item/57/NAU_has_been_hacked_
Friday May 16, 2008 - 10:56pm (EDT) Permanent Link | 0 Comments
Entry for May 16, 2008
NAU has been hacked!
Current mood: angry
I waited two days before posting this,trying HARD to contact NAU,Tsisqua,or Matty Yellowboy,for permission. But my concern for these wonderful friends/kin,who work SO hard for the rights of our People out weigh my caution. As soon as we spoke out at NAFPS against the "personal" attacks on Native Peoples there,we were SILENCED,bann from defending SELF,or others from the abuses to our Peoples. THIS,is going TOO FAR,this is PROOF in my mind,they (NAFPS) have much to hide,more to answer for.PLEASE,reach out,go and read the abuses your self,SEE and hear,Al Carroll is writing a "book" speaking for ALL our Nations,(is that not what NAFPS is calling "fraud" in others)going to Europe,making monies,and giving nothing back to our Peoples but arrogant abuse,he is after all the "EducatedIndian" RIGHT? My question is he "INDIAN" AT ALL,AND IF so,is he the ONLY Educated Indian,as his name and his actions seem to say!
A QUOTE from Al Carroll & Co. to Tsisqua
"Shut the fuck up you dumb bitch. Stop posting about Al, we now have all your personal details. If you post again, we will come to your house, take your children, and kill them. You know nothing about Al. GOT IT? GOOD."
..TR> ..TABLE>
granny
That is not necessary Granny, we have no question about who you are, and we are walking beside you here(I offered my family names). Tsissy was taken into hospital last night, I fear the stress and worry of the threats (We received 9 in total) was to much for her, two of the threats listed the little ones school where they attend and told her in no uncertain terms that if she does not shut up, they will take the children from the school and kill them. We have passed this information on to the police. My suggestion (And I would like to hear what you think on this matter) is to hit every ndn forum, blog etc that is on the net, post the truth of Al Carroll, we have contacted AIM once more, NARF, the Mescalero (Who have confirmed to us on the telephone Al Carroll is NOT known to them, but they state he is known to be a fraud and a abuser) we are also looking at a way to shut down his site of hate. We have sent information to the Feds, FBI etc regarding the death threats, kidnap threats etc also. I am gthering a list of as many forums as I can find as we speak. Since we find HUGE disrespect in the way you are being treated here, we hope you know we are with you 100%, and will do all we can to put this matter straight not only for you, but for our people. Too long this 'man' has abused our people.
Did you post this ? Where on earth or cyberspace did this story come from?
I can't imagine anyone here would say anything like this- has something got mixed up some how or what?
Stories like that can't help the credibility of the information provided here .
But if you believed something like that I can see where you would feel pretty upset .
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Tsissy was hacked by someone else. She can tell you who it was. Had nothing to do with NAFPS.
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Hello "Granny". Thanks for proving for everyone that much of what you said was false. Obviously you are not and never were banned in here.
So will you have the decency to apologize for your lies and remove them from other sites? Will you now try to grow up, and quit attacking NDN people on an NDN group, and instead foolishly backing whites with a little NDN ancestry who are doing wrong?
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Im kinda dissapointed...I did all I could to have the posting regarding my health and threats made to my children 'removed' from the net...Im a private person...as you know MP...and my heart condition and health is my own concern...but thanks for sharing it with everyone here.
Just to clarify...this was NOT written by myself (I see the writers name has been removed??)....as it was nothing to do with me...I was in ICU...and as soon as I came out of the hospital...and saw these postings...I asked Granny to remove them...of which Im sure she will clarify....as can others...for I was quite upset about this. This came from a personal Email between Granny and one of our staff...who has since left due to conflicting opinions. We've been hacked before...our forum closed down...much of our main site was also hacked....not to mention some of our site being closed down due to false claims made by Ravencrow to our host....I guess this is the way people feel necessary to 'shut people up'....as good as it gets eh.
NAU's email accounts had been hacked....not only once...but time and time again in the space of two weeks...all our information within those accounts lost....files...etc...regarding any case we were currently working on...and personal emails from myself to family...and visa versa...we then began to receive many threats...all posted on our NAU main site sent to us via the "Ask A Question" section....which shows no senders email address...it was clear whom ever was sending the threats....also had access to our email accounts since they were using the names of my little ones in person...naming their school...and various other personal information....so on and so forth....but I will not deny many of the threats we received were aimed towards either 'me shutting Granny up on NAPFS'....or 'NAU keeping out of it'...I wont repeat the actual words used as the language was highly colorful. This is simply the truth of the matter...Im making no accusations...I hope that is clear....these threats could have come from anyone....this is the net afterall...and there are many 'oddballs' on it. I had no way to discover who had sent these threats...but...the days listings of IP numbers visiting that particular page...and the times the threats were posted etc...have been forwarded to the correct authorities....who are dealing with this...as like I said...some very serious...worrying threats were made....so much so...I almost took down NAU...as it was becoming too stressful....since my 'condition' is now put here for all to see...I will clarify it...I have a terminal heart condition...one that requires a heart transplant...of which I can not have....so I am now living my days on a time frame....Im not asking for sympathy....Im trying to show how these threats made were obviously and clearly stressful...as they would be to anyone with children etc. Im not saying where they come from...for I do not know...and the staff member who emailed Granny...was also clearly upset and angry given the current situation.
Incidently...we've since gone with an email provider that is 'safe'....or 'safer' should I say....I guess I learnt something from this...Yahoo sucks.
With respect,
Tsissy
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MP I am having a hard time understanding why you have reposted Tsissy's personal information here, after you were asked not to before. You do not offer your personal information for all to see...do you find these antics appropriate?Why is it ok for you to keep your personal information to yourself and yet, you go out of your way to attempt to shed bad lighting on someone else?This is shameful and disrespectful.
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MP I am having a hard time understanding why you have reposted Tsissy's personal information here, after you were asked not to before. You do not offer your personal information for all to see...do you find these antics appropriate?Why is it ok for you to keep your personal information to yourself and yet, you go out of your way to attempt to shed bad lighting on someone else?This is shameful and disrespectful.
Tsisqua's friend wredgranny posted that not me. I am not wredgranny.
Tsisqua
That sounds strange to have so many problems being hacked , and if you aren't sure who is doing it I can see where it would make you feel very uneasy . I'm sorry you have been having this type of problem
I saw you mentioned something similar back in March.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=319485276&blogID=369972761
from March
We at NAU have received death threats to our office this morning, along with more attempts to hack into our system.
It sure seems these people, and yes I will name them: Sonja A Kattermann Lloyd (Owner of RNS ~ Red Nation Society), Maggie Gillfillan, David Yeagley, John Martin (working on behalf of David Yeagley) and John Lekay of HeyokaMagazine. com.......and their little band of followers, are taking all measures possible to try to stop NAU from releasing the information we have found regarding them and their 'activities'. They may have hacked into ONE forum, but they may find it slightly more difficult taking out the 25 new forums we've since created, forums which hold the SAME information...plus the information they have no wish to be exposed.....Ooooppppsss!
As much as I can understand you wanting to know who is doing this, I was a bit uncomfortable that you would name all these people as being the ones who did it.
Do you mean it was a colaberative effort - that Sonja did one part of the hacking and then Maggie came in and did another and then John Lekay came and did the next part and then John Martin finished it off, or do you mean you are accusing 4 people of doing something only one of them did but you don't know which one, which would mean you really don't know if any of them did this, but you saying they did ,as if it was a fact, even though it is just speculation on your part?
I really don't agree with making accusations as statements of fact, if you can't prove this. Personally i find even statements of suspision are usually better left unsaid if you can't back them up with some evidence. Even though all these people create problems, accusing them of commiting a deed they did not do, only weakens your credibility , and when you are involved advocating for Native rights it will weaken the credibility of this work as well, if this becomes mixed up with strange and unfounded accusations.
Tsisqua
their little band of followers, are taking all measures possible to try to stop NAU from releasing the information we have found regarding them and their 'activities'.
What information is that? Have you posted it here?
I'm not sure if information about people like Maggie and RC who are claiming to be Indian in cyberspace, who may be pretending , is much help to anyone to post here, as trying to prove or disprove such claims in cyberspace is probably not much more than an inflamatory make work project that creates a lot of resentment, but if you have new information on John Lekay, John Martin or Yeagley that you believe may have caused them to hack your site in order to surpress this information , i'm sure many people would be interested to see that.
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their little band of followers, are taking all measures possible to try to stop NAU from releasing the information we have found regarding them and their 'activities'.
What information is that? Have you posted it here?
I'm not sure if information about people like Maggie and RC who are claiming to be Indian in cyberspace, who may be pretending , is much help to anyone to post here, as trying to prove or disprove such claims in cyberspace is probably not much more than an inflamatory make work project that creates a lot of resentment, but if you have new information on John Lekay, John Martin or Yeagley that you believe may have caused them to hack your site in order to surpress this information , i'm sure many people would be interested to see that.
No...we posted it all in our own forum...which was hacked and closed....since it was our own concern regarding our own site....not to mention factual....and we did the right thing by keeping it on our own forums/groups etc...which is the right way.
And MP...you've made it clear on various threads you doubt every little thing I post...therefore anything with regards to NAU and any attacks made on NAU are posted on our own forums/groups etc...as Im sure you can appreciate....whom ever they come from...be it Maggie...or Lekay.
As much as I can understand you wanting to know who is doing this, I was a bit uncomfortable that you would name all these people as being the ones who did it.
These people were named as we had ample proof they were all working together on a hate attack towards ourselves and NAFPS...I have already messaged Al about these things in the past...of which Im sure he can clarify....I went to the man in charge here...as is the right way.....incidently...no matter your 'personal' opinion...there was no speculation on my part. Did AL not post Ravens words? Claiming NAU, NAFPS and Beaderman were all working together etc? Are her own words no longer here on this board?? I know they are...and I know Al did....as too did I post her postings from RNS which were made available to us by Maggie..
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1603.0
We also received emails from Raven...and others...providing enough proof they were working together...and were responsible for the hackings at that time...infact they took credit for it publicly...claiming they were all working together...we then opened up many forums and posted widely regarding Lekay and others...all fact...as I had informed Al of....but then...since apparently all emails...evidence etc I provide on other threads isnt enough...you can see my concern here....when is enough enough for you? NAU is our own concern...as too is who attacks it. I did not bring this here, you did...you took Grannys posting and brought it here...not Granny....and now you use that as a means to again...call me into question. Well...Ive had just about enough.
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MP...you seem confused.Allow me to clarify myself. Granny posted that private information on her site and it was removed before due to the fact that Tsissy is a private person and her personal business is her own. For some reason, this information was reposted...and YOU took it from there and brought it to NAFPS for all to see.Is this appropriate behavior on your part? You do not want or offer your private life here, why is it ok for you to take the same information about someone else, from somewhere else when you yourself would not want someone doing this to you?We all can see whats going on here.
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Lonefeather
And if I may add...constantly attempting to create diversions away from the actual fact being presented, are the antics of frauds/fakes
Lonefeather, I totally agree . wredgranny posted that information and made it public. Tsisqua elaborated and explained about her heart condition. For all "the public' knew she had been hospitalized for diarea , or nausea, or a headache ... Now she is the victim of her and her friends disclosures. I have no idea why either of you think this has anything to do with me , but that you are trying to make it into an issue just looks like you are here to troll. From now on I will be ignoring what looks to me to be obvious trolling behavior.
Tsisqua
I did not bring this here, you did...you took Grannys posting and brought it here...not Granny....and now you use that as a means to again...call me into question.
I asked wredgranny where this story thati s posted on her website came from. It is a really strange allegation, which discredits and defames NAFPS and all the work we do here. Me questioning where this story came from was directed at wredgranny as she posted it. Unless it came from you , why are you feeling I am bringing you into question on that specific incident. Are you wredgranny?
What I did question which concerns you is the story that Lekay, Martin and Yeagley hacked your website. I find this accusation to be very unlikely.
Tsisqua
Did AL not post Ravens words? Claiming NAU, NAFPS and Beaderman were all working together etc
Beaderman appears to have a pretty bad reputation and he was posting here under the name "the rebel" , and you are posting here, so in a way it's true that NAFPS and NAU and Beaderman were / are all working together , though that doesn't mean that NAFPS members agree with , or are able to control what any individual member does. I guess if members get really abusive they get banned but I can't see what else NAFPS can do.
What I recall Al mentioning was that after Raven Crow left here , she turned to Lekay's freind Lavallee for support. That doesn't mean Lekay or Martin or Yeagley hacked your website.
The thing that makes me skeptical is simply that if the people you named - Yeagley, John Martin and Lekay - were going around hacking websites they didn't like, it seems yours would be at the bottom of a rather long list. Which makes me think it is unlikely you were targeted in the way you are imagining. At least- unless you can prove otherwise, the people you are blaming probably had nothing to do with it.
I don't know if your belief that RC hacked your site or made threats are true , and if she did this it was very wrong of her to do.
Just from my own limited perspective, I feel bad RC felt alienated and personally attacked as although much of what she presented was overly emotional, personal and not at all well organized, and some of what she said just sounded like she has an active imagination, i think at least some of what she was saying was true. If she hadn't been subjected to so many humiliating comments , she may have become an ally of NAFPS rather than turned into an enemy.
( edited to add - I see a couple of Lonefeathers posts were removed including the one I am quoting from, highlighted in red, which was directed at me. The posts removed basicly said the same thing as the ones left in . )
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These people were named as we had ample proof they were all working together on a hate attack towards ourselves and NAFPS...I have already messaged Al about these things in the past...of which Im sure he can clarify....I went to the man in charge here...as is the right way.....i
Did AL not post Ravens words? Claiming NAU, NAFPS and Beaderman were all working together etc? Are her own words no longer here on this board?? I know they are...and I know Al did....as too did I post her postings from RNS which were made available to us by Maggie..
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1603.0
We also received emails from Raven...and others...providing enough proof they were working together...and were responsible for the hackings at that time...infact they took credit for it publicly...claiming they were all working together...we then opened up many forums and posted widely regarding Lekay and others...all fact...as I had informed Al of....
I wouldn't call myself "in charge". I'm one mod out of five. I suppose I should take it as a compliment, but then it leads to things like people who have a grudge against me for other work I've done taking it out on all of NAFPS. The best example of that are Lekay, Yeagley, and Martin coming after us solely because of how I've worked to expose Yeagley and Martin as the white supremacists they are.
(And that's something Granny or any taking her side still need to explain and apologize for, repeating word for word the smears put out by L, Y and M.)
Obviously NAFPS, NAU, and Beaderman have taken similar positions on some issues and been in contact with each other, but let's not overstate it. How long has it been since Beaderman has even been around, for example?
But to get back to the main topic: That is "Granny" choosing to spread lies on other websites, outright libel like claiming any threats were ever made from any longtime member of NAFPS.
That IS libel, plain and simple. It's 100% lies. Really, how credible is it that a history professor who uses his own name online all the time would issue death threats to someone? And if Granny doesn't apologize for it and remove the libel, then obviously she and anyone backing her loses all credibility.
Take care that this thread does not get sidetracked with nonsense like Crazyeagle's whining about the nonexistent "ban," or any attempts to make anything else the issue. That whining post was given its own thread, but hopefully we can avoid the same long, boring, overwrought persecution complex of PODIAs like we saw last time, who are unable to recognize they're being given far more latitude and a lot more patience than most get in here.
That includes also this attempt to sidetrack with allegations of personal information posted. That is something you need to take to PMs.
That means you LF. No sidetracks, like the Blackwaters have become notorious for, doing so for literally hundreds of posts.
I will ask again any of the Blackwaters who choose to come back: Will you stand up against the lies and libel that Granny is spreading? You should, because she is doing it in the name of protecting or defending or standing in solidarity with you.
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Now I confused, how did JM, LeK and company get into this. I remember an IM from May 28, that NAU was hacked by a racist group, called gOOns. Then Sonja sent an email taking credit. True, their old data was used for further libel, but the blog on death threats, kidnapping, terrorism and FBI is unique. That sounds more like FriedBread Mama lending a helping hand. But she would never post it, just suggest it. But it sure is a substantial libel case, as it definately can cause harm to the individuals being libeled.
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The original NAU Forum crashed on March 24, 2008. The actual hacking was done by 'professional hackers', for lack of a better term. I don't think it's ever been proven who hired them. There were a lot of accusations that ravencrow had something to do with it; but I don't remember ever seeing anything where she claimed responsibility for it. I really doubt Martin, Lekay, or Yeagley had anything to do with it. What could NAU have on these three guys that hasn't already been exposed and posted all over the internet?
From what was posted on the NAU Forum, their e-mail account was hacked on May 14th.
Why did Granny post that blog on May 16th, trash-talking NAFPS and insinuating that we had something to do with it? Why did she post that members here had threatened Tsisqua and her children? Guess she was just following the instructions given to her in the e-mail she received from someone at NAU. That e-mail was actually worse than what Granny wrote in response. He is the one who stated that Tsisqua was in the hospital and that they had received death threats from members of NAFPS. He also advised Granny to get the word out, post on as many Native sites as possible, let the world know the truth about Al Carroll and NAFPS. Said that they had already informed the police, AIM, NARF, the Mescalero, FBI and the Feds. Doesn't that sound like ravencrow's accusations, threats, and promises when she left NAFPS? Do I think the members of NAU received death threats? I don't know. Do I think someone threatened to kidnap Tsisqua's children and kill them? I don't know. What I do know is that no one on this forum would do that.
Why is Granny's blog still there? She knows these are lies. Why hasn't she deleted it or posted a retraction? Tsisqua knows these are lies. Why hasn't she posted something? Why is Tsisqua letting it stand as though it was the truth? A couple people have posted that Granny was asked to delete it, not for the lies about NAFPS, but because personal information was posted about Tsisqua. What about the lies? Letting things like this continue makes NAU lose credibility.
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Now I confused, how did JM, LeK and company get into this.
Martin, Lekay, and Yeagley have repeated quite a bit of lies and libel all over the net, and Granny is in turn spreading the exact same libel far and wide. So far none of the Blackwaters or their supporters have tried to distance themselves from what Granny is doing. So they deservedly have lost any shred of credibility they have left when they support a flake like her repeating what racists like M L and Y say, almost word for word.
The Blackwaters also apparently are content to see libel done against NDN people protecting NDN traditions, and agree with fabricating threats that the intended victim, Tsisqua, says were never made.
While Martin and other Yeagley supporters have made violent threats many times before, I don't know of Martin and company ever having the brains to try to pull off hacking. Martin, after all, was stupid enough to leave his death threats on answering machines and has never been able to fool anyone with all his multiple IDs, including his clumsy impersonation of NDNs.
As for this:
"Said that they had already informed the police, AIM, NARF, the Mescalero, FBI and the Feds."
Well, the cops, feds, and FBI have never contacted me about any of this. If the calls were ever made, they were rightly dismissed as crackpots.
Why they would be dumb enough to bother NARF isn't clear. NARF is busy with court cases. They probably also dismissed them as cranks.
I've contacted the Mescalero rez before about repatriation cases. I doubt any crank calls of theirs makes any difference, just like Lekay's did not. Everyone knows I'm not enrolled and grew up in south Texas.
And as for AIM? Please, we work with AIM people all the time.
I think it was Churchill (Winston, not Ward) who said it's always fun when they take potshots at you and they keep missing. The Blackwaters and Granny haven't harmed anyone but themselves.
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Quote from Bls
The original NAU Forum crashed on March 24, 2008. The actual hacking was done by 'professional hackers', for lack of a better term. I don't think it's ever been proven who hired them. There were a lot of accusations that ravencrow had something to do with it; but I don't remember ever seeing anything where she claimed responsibility for it. I really doubt Martin, Lekay, or Yeagley had anything to do with it. What could NAU have on these three guys that hasn't already been exposed and posted all over the internet?
Firstly...you are totally correct...we were initially hacked in March...one of our Forums...and yes a group called GoOns took credit for it...not in any email...phone call etc...but when trying to access the forum...they had left a message in plain view for all to see....to which we followed the link to their site and read the postings....regarding why and who had gone to them to have this done. To accompany this....we then received many emails from various people, with postings from the net, RNS, Yahoo360 etc to prove that indeed Ravencrow, Maggie, Lekay and some others had gotten together (in their own words...showing emails back and forth etc)...claiming NAU was some off branch of NAFPS...of which we are not...or that NAU was run by Beaderman or Al Carrol....which it clearly is not...and decided to shut us down since we were openly posting about RNS, and Lekay on our site and on other forums...forums incidently they were not able to hack and close...they were only able to close one. But...we also lost 20 pages of our main site...but those complaints were made by Ravencrow, and some annoymous names. We also had postings put on our guest book, from Lekay (In his many aka's used should I say), and many others, gloating and taking responsibility....calling me Dr. Al. and being highly abusive. Our staff know this, and certain members...bls with all due respect...how would you know these things? I have nothing to hide...infact it could be said that I give TOO much information....but do you presume that if you did not know of the inside dealings of NAU...then it cant have happened? Are you NAU staff? Or a close personal friend or family member? No. We try not to involve our members in the stupidity of others....thus we deal with it ourselves....we're not babies...we need no support or backup from anyone...we make people aware of what needs to be out there...nothing more...everything else is dealt with within NAU....as it should be. Do I know 100% Lekay was actually involved? No....all I know is from the information we received...and the comments made. Does anyone know anyone via the net? No....not unless they too know that person in 'real' life.
Quote from Bls
From what was posted on the NAU Forum, their e-mail account was hacked on May 14th.
Yes it was, and we created a new account, which was hacked the same day....then we created another account...which was hacked the day later....and so on and so forth....so we went with a different provider...which has proven a lot safer.
Quote from Bls
Why did Granny post that blog on May 16th, trash-talking NAFPS and insinuating that we had something to do with it?
I would suggest you ask Granny, we had it removed from all sites after many days of mails...why it was put up again...I have no idea...that was Granny's choice alone, one only she can answer. I speak for no one but myself.
Quote from Bls
Why did she post that members here had threatened Tsisqua and her children?
When people post threats, personal information taken from our own personal email files...and state "If you do not shut Granny up on NAFPS...." or "You know nothing about Al Carroll...." etc accompanied by the distinctive threats to my children....it certainly appears that someone who read these posts on this forum took it upon themselves to write the threats. And with all due respect...with 651 members here....do you know each one personally? Can you vouch for every single member in saying no one from NAFPS would have done this? No. Have I written anywhere stating...AL Carroll personally threatened me? NO. Or NAFPS Admin? NO. I am a memebr here...can you vouch for me...do you personally know me? No. Many people are members here....you cant vouch for each and every one...no disrespect intended....but this is fact. Does that make NAFPS responsible for these threats? NO. Did they make these threats in the name of NAFPS? Yes. Am I soley responsible for the words of any NAU member? No. Or for their actions or opinions? No. Nor am I responsible for the opinions of NAU Staff....even though this staff member was removed.
Quote from Bls
Guess she was just following the instructions given to her in the e-mail she received from someone at NAU. That e-mail was actually worse than what Granny wrote in response. He is the one who stated that Tsisqua was in the hospital and that they had received death threats from members of NAFPS. He also advised Granny to get the word out, post on as many Native sites as possible, let the world know the truth about Al Carroll and NAFPS.
And HE has since been removed from NAU due to conflicting opinions....he was angry...upset...worried....but so was I once I saw the email he'd sent to Granny and the postings that had been made....to which I did all I could to have them removed by whatever means necessary.
Quote from Bls
Said that they had already informed the police, AIM, NARF, the Mescalero, FBI and the Feds.
I can state for a fact the appropriate authorities have been contacted regarding the threats made, the hacking of our email...etc...as it should be....people here may like to dismiss threats made to little ones....but they are MY little ones...and I dont take it lightly....and with all due respect...why the heck should I?
Quote from Bls
Do I think the members of NAU received death threats? I don't know. Do I think someone threatened to kidnap Tsisqua's children and kill them? I don't know. What I do know is that no one on this forum would do that.
Again with all due respect....651 members here on this forum....do you know each and every single one personally? Face to face? And can vouch for them all? Or even vouch for all the readers of these threads....people who are not even members? Supporters of NAFPS? Is NAFPS responsible for the opinions of their readers or members? No. Like I have already clearly stated....I do not know WHO made the threats...that is being dealt with by those who can find out....but I am NOT here stating NAFPS threatened my children! All I have done, is present the facts....take that as you may.
Quote from Bls
Why is Granny's blog still there? She knows these are lies. Why hasn't she deleted it or posted a retraction?
You will have to ask Granny herself. I cant speak for anyone but myself.
Quote from Bls
Tsisqua knows these are lies. Why hasn't she posted something? Why is Tsisqua letting it stand as though it was the truth?
With respect....what exactly have I not cleared up here? I have spoken the truth.
Quote from AL
The Blackwaters also apparently are content to see libel done against NDN people protecting NDN traditions, and agree with fabricating threats that the intended victim, Tsisqua, says were never made
Quote from Tsisqua
we then began to receive many threats...all posted on our NAU main site sent to us via the "Ask A Question" section....which shows no senders email address...it was clear whom ever was sending the threats....also had access to our email accounts since they were using the names of my little ones in person...naming their school...and various other personal information....so on and so forth....but I will not deny many of the threats we received were aimed towards either 'me shutting Granny up on NAPFS'....or 'NAU keeping out of it'...I wont repeat the actual words used as the language was highly colorful. This is simply the truth of the matter...Im making no accusations...I hope that is clear....these threats could have come from anyone....this is the net afterall...and there are many 'oddballs' on it. I had no way to discover who had sent these threats...but...the days listings of IP numbers visiting that particular page...and the times the threats were posted etc...have been forwarded to the correct authorities....who are dealing with this...as like I said...some very serious...worrying threats were made.
Frederica...who is FriedBread Mama? I have only ever head that name from Ravencrow in her postings...associating the name with or as Beaderman.
And just to make this crystal clear....I have nothing to do with the Blackwaters...I am here speaking for myself regarding what happened....I am not here supporting anyone...siding with anyone...as its not my way. Questions have been asked...and I am merely replying. I have said all I can on this.
With respect.
Tsissy
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It's not Beaderman, never seen it tied to Ravencrow. That was another FriedBread. This is a woman that pops up on other lists badmouthing Al. Her ties were more to LeKay and some woman Nuager selling sweats. It's one of these internet names that don't mean anything. That's why the water is so muddy.
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I've just spent the better part of my day reading through all of this. And for the life of me I cannot understand what is happening and has happened to this forum. All of a sudden RavenCrow comes in here and all hell breaks loose between the members that should be UNITED, instead there is separation and slander and disharmony going on between so many good folks and I for one am tired of Tsissy always being "attacked" by only one person....Mama Porcupine. Whatever your beef is Mama frankly this crap is getting real old and it is NOT the reason I joined this forum. If I wanted the constant drama of the "he said...she said" BS I'd go back to yahoo 360. So as much as it saddens me, I feel this forum has lost sight of it's best intentions and is no longer out to expose the ones that are doing wrong, but instead it's the stress and disharmony amongst it's own that is disheartening. Today will be my last day on this forum, I can no longer sit here and watch and read what's happening, I wish this Forum nothing but success but until Mama Porcupine outs herself for once instead of finding fault with those trying to do good, this Forum is a joke.
Sincerely,
Michele Sixkiller
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Can you say Cointelpro?
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Can you say Cointelpro?
Hey Ric we agree on something ! LOL
What sane person would think that hacking someones website and threatening to kill their kids would be less of a danger to their groups reputation than allowing wredgranny to complain that some NAFPS members have a bad attitude ? Unless the perpetrator was completely irrational it seems more likely whoever instigated this hacking was someone wanting to create drama , divisions and discredit NAFPS .
If NAU was hacked the first time, in March and it is sincerely believed someone like L or JM had anything to do with this, when NAU knew it had been hacked the second time , why would anyone assume that the hackers making these threats were truely a part of NAFPS as they claimed? A couple of the people you claim you know were involved the first time have a long and easily proven track record of lying or twisting things in order to discredit NAFPS. Knowing this , why would anyone just take the hackers word for it ?
Even if NAFPS members weren't happy with what wredgranny was saying, and they believed it was within Tsisqua's power to "shut her up ", wouldn't asking nicely have a lot better chance of a cooperative response?
And heck, if a NAFPS memeber was wanting to "shut granny up " , and they knew how to hack a website or knew how to hire someone to do this , it would make better sense to directly target the websites where wredgranny is spreading these distorted stories.
Tsisqua , considering this, why do you continue to suggest this hacker was likely to have been a member of NAFPS?
Reply #25
When people post threats, personal information taken from our own personal email files...and state "If you do not shut Granny up on NAFPS...." or "You know nothing about Al Carroll...." etc accompanied by the distinctive threats to my children....it certainly appears that someone who read these posts on this forum took it upon themselves to write the threats. And with all due respect...with 651 members here....do you know each one personally? Can you vouch for every single member in saying no one from NAFPS would have done this? No. Have I written anywhere stating...AL Carroll personally threatened me? NO. Or NAFPS Admin? NO. I am a memebr here...can you vouch for me...do you personally know me? No. Many people are members here....you cant vouch for each and every one...no disrespect intended....but this is fact. Does that make NAFPS responsible for these threats? NO. Did they make these threats in the name of NAFPS? Yes.
Again with all due respect....651 members here on this forum....do you know each and every single one personally? Face to face? And can vouch for them all? Or even vouch for all the readers of these threads....people who are not even members? Supporters of NAFPS? Is NAFPS responsible for the opinions of their readers or members? No. Like I have already clearly stated....I do not know WHO made the threats...that is being dealt with by those who can find out....but I am NOT here stating NAFPS threatened my children! All I have done, is present the facts....take that as you may.
Even though you say NAFPS isn't really responsible for what individual memebers do , you must know that people like Martin and Lekay will use a slightly twisted version of this story to discredit NAFPS just the same as they used a slightly twisted version of the completely false melodrama Robin created to discredit NAFPS.
If you don't know how these people work , more information on people who have tried to undermine the credibility of NAFPS , and their tactics, can be found in this thread;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1234.0
Continuing to tell this story as if a NAFPS memeber is likely to be responsible, seems especially unfair, as when people start doing crazy stuff like this, it's just as likely to be an enemy of NAFPS trying to make NAFPS look bad - or even a member of NAU looking to create drama and divisions.
Maybe some NAU member was jelous of the time you spend over here, or feels some of the values of NAFPS members conflicts with the direction they want to see NAU go ... and they wanted to creat divisions ... Or maybe someone just likes drama ... and being in the middle of it .... There is many many possibilities that are just as likely as the guess that it was an irrational crazed NAFPS member not liking what your friend wredgranny was saying.
If you and your friends actually do want to support the goals we are working towards here, I hope you will reconsider where you are directing the focus of your accusations. I'm not saying anyone should ever stop themselves from speaking the truth, I'm just suggesting we all need to be careful to consider what this truth is,or may be , and to make sure our words accurately represent this , before speaking and accusing people of things.
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Mooniesixkiller ...You know, I am trying really hard not to attack Tsisqua . I haven't responded or defended myself from many personal accusations which are neither fair nor true, and I haven't posted everything I have found that makes me wonder what her agenda really is. I am sitting on my hands so to speak. I don't know what you are referring to when you say you feel I have attacked Tsisqua, but if you want to talk about it there is a thread "Discussions with Moma porcupine' where you could point out the behavior you find offensive and feel is "attacking Tsisqua" .
A link to this thread is here
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1739.0;all
I have noticed Tsisqua is often saying I said offensive things I never said at all , so if you could you please quote exactly what I said, the name of the thread and reply numbers , and provide a link to the thread it was in ,and then explain how you are hearing this, it would really help me understand what you are saying.
I can be responsible for what i actually say , I can't be responsible for what people imagine i said.
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I've just spent the better part of my day reading through all of this. And for the life of me I cannot understand what is happening and has happened to this forum. All of a sudden RavenCrow comes in here and all hell breaks loose between the members that should be UNITED, instead there is separation and slander and disharmony going on between so many good folks and I for one am tired of Tsissy always being "attacked" by only one person....Mama Porcupine. Whatever your beef is Mama frankly this crap is getting real old and it is NOT the reason I joined this forum. If I wanted the constant drama of the "he said...she said" BS I'd go back to yahoo 360. So as much as it saddens me, I feel this forum has lost sight of it's best intentions and is no longer out to expose the ones that are doing wrong, but instead it's the stress and disharmony amongst it's own that is disheartening. Today will be my last day on this forum, I can no longer sit here and watch and read what's happening, I wish this Forum nothing but success but until Mama Porcupine outs herself for once instead of finding fault with those trying to do good, this Forum is a joke.
Sincerely,
Michele Sixkiller
It's pretty strange what you're saying. Because Sheila Williams, a blond woman claiming to be a Cherokee grandmother, spread libel about NAFPS, somehow it must be the fault of NAFPS or Moma P?
Because a few questionable PODIAs in the Blackwater "Band" came in about a month ago and try to discredit NAFPS to distract people from their own lack of ethics, somehow that is NAFPS' fault?
There hasn't been much dispute between NAFPS members. It's mostly been between a few late arrivals anxious to smear us to avoid anyone noticing they've done wrong, and the rest of us who haven't been fooled by that.
It's just a shame if you fall for the Blackwaters' (and "Granny's") divisive smear tactics. No one else has.
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Again with all due respect....651 members here on this forum....do you know each and every single one personally? Face to face? And can vouch for them all? Or even vouch for all the readers of these threads....people who are not even members? Supporters of NAFPS? Is NAFPS responsible for the opinions of their readers or members? No. Like I have already clearly stated....I do not know WHO made the threats...that is being dealt with by those who can find out....but I am NOT here stating NAFPS threatened my children! All I have done, is present the facts....take that as you may.
Tsissy
The last statement, yes. I already pointed out you were the one who confirmed that Sheila Williams' libel is completely and utterly false, that no such threat came to you.
I'm going to make it a habit to refer to Williams by her real name and not her online ID.
For the rest of that quote, I thought I was clear about a distinction between visitors to the NAFPS forum and NAFPS longtime activists and supporters.
Technically, Sheila Williams was a NAFPS member, though she never did anything except try to smear people and scream childish insults or lies. Others have come to the forum who no one would consider to be NAFPS members, for example exploiters like Scarlet McKinney.
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What sane person would think that hacking someones website and threatening to kill their kids would be less of a danger to their groups reputation than allowing wredgranny to complain that some NAFPS members have a bad attitude ?
Groups reputation??? Where have I stated that Im merely concerned about the reputation of NAU? I cant even believe you wrote that. Somethings are FAR MORE important...like FAMILY...CHILDREN. Like I said, perhaps others dont take threats of this magnitude seriously, naming little children and the school they go to...because they've hacked into my personal email account and got that information....making threats towards their safety...but I do...they are my children...and I dont expect you or anyone else to take it seriously. You are more concerned about the reputation of NAFPS...and seem to think Im more concerned about the reputation of NAU or indeed should be....this is the INTERNET for craps sakes...NAU is not JUST on the internet...and nothing NOTHING on the internet comes before the safety of my little ones and never will do. I couldnt give a rats behind about the reputation of NAU....my childrens safety and well being is my number 1 concern. Does that makes me a bad mother too? If someone had done the same to you MP...hacked your email....which of course you will say is highly unlikely of course...but try putting yourself in someone elses shoes just for a second...lets switch this up some...took your private emails from and to family...and made threats in the name of NAU or using MY name...you would be the first person here making sure everyone and their dog knew about it...and you know you would and you'd have no quarms about saying who they claim they are associated with. But hey...lets forget that I have also stated "I do not know WHO made the threats"...all I have done is presented the truth. If this butthead wants it known they are using NAFPS as a reason to threaten me...you want me to hide it? Lie about it? Cover it up? I have told nothing but the truth....and I wont cover up ANYTHING to suit yours or anyone elses personal opinion.
If NAU was hacked the first time
Why say if? Other people have also stated it was....so whats the if for? Again...your personal opinion.
and it is sincerely believed someone like L or JM had anything to do with this, when NAU knew it had been hacked the second time , why would anyone assume that the hackers making these threats were truely a part of NAFPS as they claimed? A couple of the people you claim you know were involved the first time have a long and easily proven track record of lying or twisting things in order to discredit NAFPS. Knowing this , why would anyone just take the hackers word for it ?
Have I taken the hackers word for it? NO. Have I said "I know it was someone here without a shadow of a doubt"? NO. Again I'll repeat for the reading imparied...have I said anywhere on this thread or anyplace else that I KNOW IT WAS A MEMBER OF NAFPS?? No I have not. I have clearly stated..."it could be anyone". Please read through the WHOLE thread. I have stated it 'could' be a member...how are YOU to know otherwize....it 'could' be a reader....how are YOU to know otherwize? It 'could' be anyone...how are YOU to know otherwize? How am I to know? You ask questions of me...asking me to look at it in a different way...do you not think I have looked at EVERY possible angle? You think Im some dumb idiot sitting behind a pc screen killing time because Ive nothing better to do with my day? And incidently....this thread is apparently regarding Granny, not me. I did not post a private email on the net...I tried to have it removed...I did not write the email...and the person who DID write the email is no longer anything to do with NAU....all Ive done here is present the facts...and still...aint never gonna be enough for some. Did you merely post Grannys posting as another means to attack me? Who knows. Apparently Granny is not permitted to be here to answer any questions regarding this...as she's banned...but hey...its okay...Tsissy's here eh. Lets question Tsissy about what other people do...If you are entitled to your personal opinion...so am I...so is everyone on this board.... Last time I looked...we were entitled to 'freedom of speech'...afterall...YOU clearly are...as should every other member on this board be.
Even if NAFPS members weren't happy with what wredgranny was saying, and they believed it was within Tsisqua's power to "shut her up ", wouldn't asking nicely have a lot better chance of a cooperative response?
All this is based on your personal opinion MP...everything you've written. Ive given an account of what happened...and my personal opinion was "I do not know WHO did it"....if you have no factual evidence about who hacked our email account, who hacked our site, who sent the threats....etc...why do you persist in harping on? You yourself always jump in on anything I post asking for "evidence and proof"...where's yours? DO YOU know who did it? I didn't realize this board was called "The personal opinions of MP"...or was here to "All listen to MP's opinions on NDN affairs".
And heck, if a NAFPS memeber was wanting to "shut granny up " , and they knew how to hack a website or knew how to hire someone to do this , it would make better sense to directly target the websites where wredgranny is spreading these distorted stories.
Again...your own personal opinion...you 'clearly' know the ins and outs of everyones mind and how everything should or should not be done....and indeed how everyone SHOULD be thinking. Hey...why dont you run for president....spokesperson on NDN affairs since you know so much....our people clearly NEED your insight on how they should be thinking and acting.
Tsisqua , considering this, why do you continue to suggest this hacker was likely to have been a member of NAFPS?
Im not suggesting anything...Im telling it like it is...you want me to back down and change the facts here? To suit your personal opinion? Because you dont like what Im saying? Aint never gonna happen. You think you can bully me into submission? Bring it.
Even though you say NAFPS isn't really responsible for what individual memebers do , you must know that people like Martin and Lekay will use a slightly twisted version of this story to discredit NAFPS just the same as they used a slightly twisted version of the completely false melodrama Robin created to discredit NAFPS.
Oh im fully aware...Im not a fool....but some people here seem to think if anyone speaks up about NAFPS....they MUST be friends of Lekay....have you ever done a search on google? There's a hell of alot more people out there on the net with something to say other than Lekay...people who admit they are also members here and regular readers...but hey...Im sure you can do a seach and find this for yourself eh...but YOU KNOW that it couldnt POSSIBLY be a reader here who made the threats and hacked our email dont you....YOU KNOW it could NEVER be a member here eh? You know them all personally I presume....visit them in their homes...drink coffee with them....and can personally vouch for every single one...yup. Again...I will repeat...I do NOT know WHO it was....is that even remotely clear yet?
Continuing to tell this story as if a NAFPS memeber is likely to be responsible, seems especially unfair
Its a "Story" when you dont like whats being said...again...this whole post is based on your personal opinion...no facts...no evidence...you ask this of all others...but we all must sit back and hear your personal opinion....and change ours to suit your own. Sorry MP, nothing doing.
Maybe some NAU member was jelous of the time you spend over here, or feels some of the values of NAFPS members conflicts with the direction they want to see NAU go ... and they wanted to creat divisions ... Or maybe someone just likes drama ... and being in the middle of it .... There is many many possibilities that are just as likely as the guess that it was an irrational crazed NAFPS member not liking what your friend wredgranny was saying.
Again...I will repeat...I have not stated that the person making the threats WAS A MEMBER OF NAFPS...I have merely told the truth...repeated the events....I have clearly stated I dont know WHO it was...but I will not hide the fact that the threats were made and how they were made. Here's an interesting thought and JUST a thought of course...but 'maybe' it was some prominent attacker on this board who found it necessary to once again find another means of jumping on top of my head in public? WHO KNOWS. But I can assure you...once the authorities dealing with this know who it was....so will everyone else....infact I will personally forward you the information since you are so concerned about this....but not for the safety of little children...but the reputation of NAFPS.
If you and your friends actually do want to support the goals we are working towards here, I hope you will reconsider where you are directing the focus of your accusations. I'm not saying anyone should ever stop themselves from speaking the truth, I'm just suggesting we all need to be careful to consider what this truth is,or may be , and to make sure our words accurately represent this , before speaking and accusing people of things
Threats made to my children are NOTHING to do with the goals here....and I REFUSE to lie about it to suit your personal opinion. Sorry MP...no dice. Im not here to make NAFPS look bad...or anyone else for that matter...but I wont lie...I wont cover up anything...and I have not said NAFPS threatened my children....other peoples personal opinions are their own.
With Respect,
Tsissy
Added:
Quote from EducatedIndian
I already pointed out you were the one who confirmed that Sheila Williams' libel is completely and utterly false, that no such threat came to you.
Where did I? No disrespect intended, but I clearly recall you contacting me about this post as I had no idea it even existed...and once I found out about it I did all I could to have it removed...and I know I did not tell you these threats were never made, because that would be an outright lie. I remember telling you there was no proof that the threats had come from NAFPS...and that I did not know WHO the threats had come from...therefore the personal email that was posted needed to be removed as there WAS no actual proof. ...and the NAU staff member who sent the email had been dealt with. I did not say the threats were not made.
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Tsisqua
Groups reputation??? Where have I stated that Im merely concerned about the reputation of NAU? I cant even believe you wrote that. Somethings are FAR MORE important...like FAMILY...CHILDREN
Tsisqua ... you have misunderstood what I am saying once again . Why would a NAFPS member hack your website and say the following if it wasn't concern for the reputation of NAFPS? What other motive would there be ... ?
From what Sheila Williams posted , quoting some of the threats NAU recieved ;
"Shut the fuck up you dumb bitch. Stop posting about Al, we now have all your personal details. If you post again, we will come to your house, take your children, and kill them. You know nothing about Al. GOT IT? GOOD."
Tsisqua
"many of the threats we received were aimed towards either 'me shutting Granny up on NAPFS'....or 'NAU keeping out of it'..
So all I am saying is a NAFPS member who would hack your website and threaten your kids in order to defend NAFPS reputation ( their alleged motive ) would be utterly insane - and if all we are looking for is a crazy person with illogical reasons for doing what they are doing ,there is no reason any member of NAFPS should be higher on the list of suspects than memebrs of NAU or any other group that doesn't like people opposing exploiters and explosing frauds.
Nobody said they didn't take threats made concerning your kids seriously.
I feel you are distorting a lot of the rest of what you are saying i said .
I am having a problem with this because i don't like being blamed for stuff i never said, but you do this so often, if i go over everything you wite and refute every time you misrepresent something i said, any issue we were trying to discuss would have the attention diverted from the actual issue to the back and forth interpersonal dispute that would be sure to follow...
This feels really unfair and it does make me feel hostile towards you. I'm not sure what to do except hope people will read through the entire interaction and compare what I actually say, to what you say I said, to make sure i am not being misquoted and having my words twisted.
Your example of if I got threats in your name is interesting because if i got threatening emails from Al or someone else i have always considered an ally in our struggle to educate people about frauds and exploitation , I would not believe it was even remotely likely that Al or some other previously reasonable person was suddenly threatening my kids. Especially not if I had previously seen accounts hacked .
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Shiela Williams aka RedGranny is not ban as far as I know. She chooses to do what she is doing. I get the picture she feels she can say what she wants, but doesn't want others to reply. If you disagree with her it becomes a situtation. And she rather play the victim. I think MP is being used as a flash point. I think personalities come into play and people just feed off of this. We well know there are alliances against NAFPS, old and new that have come into play. Asking questions is not illegal. Posting false information with intent and harrassment comes close to civil rights violations. But if that is what people decide to do it is on them. They have to deal with the consenquences. And lack of knowledge of the law is no excuse. Shiela Williams was told by Al she need to take the stuff down and apologize. That's not a ban. That's for her to do, not us. I don't see her as having exactly clean hands in this situtation. There should be the focus.
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Quote from EducatedIndian
I already pointed out you were the one who confirmed that Sheila Williams' libel is completely and utterly false, that no such threat came to you.
Where did I? No disrespect intended, but I clearly recall you contacting me about this post as I had no idea it even existed...and once I found out about it I did all I could to have it removed...and I know I did not tell you these threats were never made, because that would be an outright lie. I remember telling you there was no proof that the threats had come from NAFPS...
Exactly. That last part of the sentence after what you put in bold was what I meant to say. That sentence in my post should have ended with "no such threat came to you from anyone at NAFPS." My mistake.
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Tansi;
What I was referring to, in my previous post, is that when an Aboriginal group becomes effective, it attracts the attention of those who feel threatened and these often will attempt to disrupt, control or destroy said group. I have seen, especially in the early 70's, the effects of infiltration and disruption among Aboriginal groups who have the potential of threatening the status quo.
NAFPS may be one such situation! Maybe we should all be aware of this!
Ric
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OK OK I am going to say something that might make people upset.
I am sorry but why are we even talk about another website?
I have seen so much about this website NAU but never visited it
nor do I want to.
It reminds me of gossip and more gossip.
It a he and she said
which make no sense.
We need to get back to forcusing on the issues.
I am sorry Tsisqua but you need to keep your site and issues off this site
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Well I'd do that if people would stop bringing it up! I didn't bring NAU up on this thread...read the thread....that was someone else wasnt it? But I have the right to speak up too...or is there NO freedom of speech here?...Check every thread Ive posted on pretty much...Im not the one bringing up NAU....and hey...im not upset at all Earth...you are entitled to your opinion...infact Im glad you pointed this out. Maybe now people will see what the deal is...and read the threads...MP seems to have an issue with me and NAU...which is why she brings it up on almost every thread I post on. But wait...I'll be wrong about that too....all folks gotta do is use their eyes.
With respect,
Tsissy
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Well the bickering needs to stop, I can see how it's being used. And Ric is correct, it's one of the oldest ploys used. It's not about anyone except Shiela Williams. Al asked her to do what she needed to do. Now it's up to her.
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No way of knowing now if Williams deleted the lies or not. She's made her blogs private. You need to be a friend to see them, so I guess that leaves me out.
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A blog that few people see except her online friends isn't too important. She's spread her libel far and wide on at least half a dozen sites. What she was asked to do was remove the lies from those places and have the decency to apologize.
No sign of that, or of any of the Blackwaters having the sense to at least distance themselves from her lunacy.
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I was sent an e-mail to this topic to read. First and foremost, let me apologize for any misunderstandings of the past. When I first came to this site it was in search of help regarding a fake. I was attacked and all my words fell on deaf ears. I have seen though that people are starting to question all I was in the first place.
Now, I am a reachable person and I have not lied to anyone. If you want my address just asks in e-mail and I will give it. I am who I am and I really don't need anyone to validate that for me. Now since I am known it would be nice to have your real name and address Tsisqua. Do you hide this because you know you are a liar and with these slanderous words of yours you run a high chance of a serious law suit?
Let me make this clear, I never hacked into your computer. I ask you to report this to the Police and maybe even the FBI since the lives of your Children and you were threatened. Since 911 there is zero tolerance for this and it is a terrorist threat. So, if you have proof that I did this, I dare you to press charges against me. In fact, I want you to if you know it is me. When you do, don’t get too comfortable because I will slam you into the wall with law suits.
Now I also did not conspire to hack you and I doubt very much any of them did either. LeKay last I spoke to him said he has no desire to be bothered with you and all that has happened. He too is reachable because he posted his real name and phone number in one site I went to. So I called and he called me back and we spoke. Not about you or anyone, we spoke about ourselves to each other. He also told me to stay away from you and I did. This is the first time I have been back since the last time I was here and attacked.
The long break from all the drama did me good. It gave me time to clear my mind and think things through. Now, another thing that needs to be cleared up, I was never the owner of RNS. Bobby and Chelle were and I on my own discovered the lies in them too and oops, the site is gone. Bye-Bye.
Chelle is the one who reported you to freewebs and not me. So if you knew the truth and if Freewebs gave you the name of the person who reported you, you would already know it was not me. Now I made a freeweb account to see if they do tell you who made claims and do you know they don’t? Not even to a paying user do they give that. But I will be kind and let you know it was Chelle. The reason why it was frozen was you posted my IP and they must have told you to take it off. You did not so Chelle wrote again and they saw and they froze you. That had nothing to do with hacking either.
Furthermore, I am not friends with Bear Warrior. I know he was a fake Chief in California and I was one of the people who called the DA’s Office and the Tribal Lawyers reporting that site. I also exposed them in RNS and shortly after that, their site was gone. I also called the Arizona Tribal Office and reported that Standing stupid bear and I contacted the IRS about all that money they were getting from people. Oops, that site seems to be gone too. Now, I am not going to hate people just because and my enemies I will keep close enough to watch from a safe distance.
Tsisqua, you are nothing but a lying drama queen who uses peoples passion to your own evil gains. You are a fake and that is why you hide. You claimed to be in a Hospital in Quebec Canada in ICU with a Heart Attack. I called all the Hospitals in that area and the ICU and do you know there was no such patient? Again, another lie upon another lie. You covered for your Beaderman fake Tonto of Ohio and I have to wonder why.
If anyone wants to know what is about me, just ask in an e-mail. I am no ones enemy here. Well except for Tsisqua. I am sorry to anyone else who I might have hurt in some way. I also am not the one who attacked Al here or anywhere else. I know who it was but she is gone now and I don’t think we will hear from her anymore.
Wado all for your time.
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Presumably this is Sheila Williams? If so, your apology is welcome, though deleting all of the slander you passed along on many websites would be even more welcome.
Why you have anything to do with a racist and promoter of Nuage exploiters like Lekay is a mystery. He is still promoting one fraud after another, and he's posted quite a bit of slander on his website about us, something for which he will faced legal action before and could again.
Your dispute with Tsisqua is complicated, since she has faced quite a bit of questioning in here, and also has not been around for awhile so can't answer you. I'd suggest the two of you take that to private emails rather than drag it out further in here. And any legal matters are of course a matter for law enforcement.
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No I am not this Williams person nor do I know who she is. I also do not care to take any dirty laundry anywhere with Tsisqua. I see that my name got dragged into this and I have not been around anyone for a while. I just wanted to make some key points clear is all.
Now I have said nothing about anyone here on this site anywhere on the internet. At least not for a very long time. I only care about doing what is right for my people and all other NDN's and myself. I need no help and have done all by myself and I will continue to. I only wanted to stop the lies about me and if people want to talk about at least say the truth.
Now if you think that Tsisqua is not trashing you currently, then you need to go and check out her sites forum. I will catch up with Tsisqua one day and I will deal with her then.
Thank you for your time.
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No I am not this Williams person nor do I know who she is... I see that my name got dragged into this and I have not been around anyone for a while. I just wanted to make some key points clear is all.
Now I have said nothing about anyone here on this site anywhere on the internet... I only wanted to stop the lies about me and if people want to talk about at least say the truth.
Then perhaps you could say who you are, because it's very unclear. Even an apology, while always welcome, has less effect if no one knows who its coming from. And quite possibly you posted in the wrong thread, or were being told incorrect things about this site.
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No I am not this Williams person nor do I know who she is... I see that my name got dragged into this and I have not been around anyone for a while. I just wanted to make some key points clear is all.
Now I have said nothing about anyone here on this site anywhere on the internet... I only wanted to stop the lies about me and if people want to talk about at least say the truth.
Then perhaps you could say who you are, because it's very unclear. Even an apology, while always welcome, has less effect if no one knows who its coming from. And quite possibly you posted in the wrong thread, or were being told incorrect things about this site.
Sure, I am Raven Crow. My apology still stands and holds the same sincerity as when I first gave.
I also am not the one who e-mailed anyone or lurked on others sites. That was Chelle. I found out the hard way that this person was not who she said she was and I was the fool. All dealt with and in my past and I will move forward.
Yes I said some harsh things about you but then again I was being attacked for asking about a fake and this T person decided to cover up for him and caused an attack. My original post did not warrent the attacks I got. It was frustrating to me because no one was listening and taking T's side.
Why my name keeps on being used here and elsewhere is befuddling and trifling to say the least. I did laugh when I read I was being accused of hacking and threatening. When I read that the IP was leading to California, it is none other then Chelle since that is where she lives. The other one is NC.
Who is this Zoi? Is she an ADMIN here? I got an odd e-mail from her this morning. I figured she is not ADMIN because she would have my e-mail...no? Well I placed her in my ignore list.
I have stayed away from you all until 2 days ago when I got an e-mail linking me to this page. I read it all and Moma_Porcupine, I enjoyed your posts the most. I like the way you think and question.
I am sorry and I feel we all got off on the wrong foot. I am like you all in the sense that I would like to shut down all the fakes and frauds. I have been doing this on my own and doing good with it I might add. I did see some things here that I already knew or would have been useful. But the end result is always the same.
By the way, RNS no longer exists because the heat got too much for one of them. I also discovered things that shocked me and then hurt me and I feel like the fool who was used. So yes, I make mistakes and I probably will make more.
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Let me say,you invited folks to ask for your details,this i did.It was clear that you and Tsissy have some personal issues,
as for me being admin,or even the need to ask?! nope i am not admin.I asked you in pm as you suggested,for your details.I was not rude to you,but i did suggest you and she sort out your personal differences directly as these have nothing to do with NAFPS or NAU as two seperate organisations.But of course i could not respond to your e mail as youve blocked my pm response.
Ravens Crow huh? well maybe you need to stop with the tattle tailing and stirring between NAFPS and NAU,if you have evidences that Tsissy is a fraud on NAUs behalf,then that evidence is something that this site would post.As it stands you are playing the same He said/she said they lied,with NAFPS and NAU that came to NAU' attention earlier this year.
At the moment its your word against hers and shes saying nothing you notice.
Don't have a pop at me for taking you up on your invite,if you don't want to sort out your personal animosity towards Tsissy (or vice versa...who knows) then why do you presume anyone in NAFPS should take sides in what obviously a personal arguement?
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Maybe I should make it clear. I will give my e-mail to who I think is okay to give it to. You are not one of them...sorry.
Now I do not care to air out anything here with T. I simply came in to say the truth about alll the alligations posted about me. I was not here when it apparently first was posted but I see them now. So I am now making some points clear. I have a right to defend myself do I not?
I honestly could care less about NAU and any problems they might be having. I came in here to correct the wrong information being said about me. If T does not want me to bring up her name then just maybe she should not put my name into her false alligation posted in here NAFPS. So saying I am bringing up something that does not belong in here is wrong because I am not the one who brought me up in here in the first place. Right?
Just leave me out of T's drama fest.
Let me say,you invited folks to ask for your details,this i did.It was clear that you and Tsissy have some personal issues,
as for me being admin,or even the need to ask?! nope i am not admin.I asked you in pm as you suggested,for your details.I was not rude to you,but i did suggest you and she sort out your personal differences directly as these have nothing to do with NAFPS or NAU as two seperate organisations.But of course i could not respond to your e mail as youve blocked my pm response.
Ravens Crow huh? well maybe you need to stop with the tattle tailing and stirring between NAFPS and NAU,if you have evidences that Tsissy is a fraud on NAUs behalf,then that evidence is something that this site would post.As it stands you are playing the same He said/she said they lied,with NAFPS and NAU that came to NAU' attention earlier this year.
At the moment its your word against hers and shes saying nothing you notice.
Don't have a pop at me for taking you up on your invite,if you don't want to sort out your personal animosity towards Tsissy (or vice versa...who knows) then why do you presume anyone in NAFPS should take sides in what obviously a personal arguement?
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Consider yourself defended. Let's move on. We have little control over what other groups do or discuss in their spare time. If you want to help with this forum, you are welcome. Thanks.
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Let me say,you invited folks to ask for your details,this i did.It was clear that you and Tsissy have some personal issues,
as for me being admin,or even the need to ask?! nope i am not admin.I asked you in pm as you suggested,for your details.I was not rude to you,but i did suggest you and she sort out your personal differences directly as these have nothing to do with NAFPS or NAU as two seperate organisations.But of course i could not respond to your e mail as youve blocked my pm response.
Ravens Crow huh? well maybe you need to stop with the tattle tailing and stirring between NAFPS and NAU,if you have evidences that Tsissy is a fraud on NAUs behalf,then that evidence is something that this site would post.As it stands you are playing the same He said/she said they lied,with NAFPS and NAU that came to NAU' attention earlier this year.
At the moment its your word against hers and shes saying nothing you notice.
Don't have a pop at me for taking you up on your invite,if you don't want to sort out your personal animosity towards Tsissy (or vice versa...who knows) then why do you presume anyone in NAFPS should take sides in what obviously a personal arguement?
The fact that Tsisqua is a fraud has already been proven and posted.
See Tsisqua's intro thread
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0
It is what it is.
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Thank you BLS between Moma Porcupine and you, it was the best reading I have had in a while. Both of you did very good on that. Yes I saw there that she was exposed. I had to sit and read for a few hours all that was in this thread.
Frederica, thank you and yes, if I can help this group in some way, I will do it.
Let me say,you invited folks to ask for your details,this i did.It was clear that you and Tsissy have some personal issues,
as for me being admin,or even the need to ask?! nope i am not admin.I asked you in pm as you suggested,for your details.I was not rude to you,but i did suggest you and she sort out your personal differences directly as these have nothing to do with NAFPS or NAU as two seperate organisations.But of course i could not respond to your e mail as youve blocked my pm response.
Ravens Crow huh? well maybe you need to stop with the tattle tailing and stirring between NAFPS and NAU,if you have evidences that Tsissy is a fraud on NAUs behalf,then that evidence is something that this site would post.As it stands you are playing the same He said/she said they lied,with NAFPS and NAU that came to NAU' attention earlier this year.
At the moment its your word against hers and shes saying nothing you notice.
Don't have a pop at me for taking you up on your invite,if you don't want to sort out your personal animosity towards Tsissy (or vice versa...who knows) then why do you presume anyone in NAFPS should take sides in what obviously a personal arguement?
The fact that Tsisqua is a fraud has already been proven and posted.
See Tsisqua's intro thread
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0
It is what it is.
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smooth move Sonja,
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What is this comment supposed to mean? Go ahead and use it all you want, and see if I care. By the way I live at the Army War College here in PA. It is no secret since I have a few sites out here with that information in it. It used to be the Old Indian Boarding School and I was the one who hosted the Longest Walk 2 and gave them a tour of the place and where the Children stayed and all. Then we ended it at my House here where I gave them refreshments and food. My Husband and a dear friend helped me with this too. Were you with this Group? It was the Northern Route. Come and see me if you like. I am not going to fall for the drama.
smooth move Sonja,