NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: Tecuani on January 25, 2017, 05:48:42 pm

Title: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Tecuani on January 25, 2017, 05:48:42 pm
Another outfit in Durango. While the founders may be indigenous, the facilitators certainly aren't, and they are borrowing/stealing from other indigenous cultures in a hodge-podge new age self help seminar series, which they are of course selling at a steep price. Any research or info would be appreciated, thanks!

http://makingrelatives.org/

https://www.facebook.com/tiospayedurango/

[Just changed title-Al]
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on January 25, 2017, 06:56:27 pm
These are forms of Large Group Awareness Trainings/ Lgats. Lgats employ coercive persuasion and manipulation. Bad news. I wonder if the founders initially did Landmark Education trainings (https://culteducation.com/group/1020-landmark-education.html ) or some other lgat, and have now put their own pseudo-indian twist on the rhetoric and marketing.

I'll help research this when able.

Quote
OUR SIGNATURE TRAININGS

Level 1 - Relationships

Level 1 – Relationships is about developing a new level of awareness for the limiting beliefs holding you back from what is truly possible in life. LV1 follows the idea that “If it’s to be in this world, it’s up to me.”

Level 2 – Advanced

Level 2 – Advanced is about breaking through to new paradigms of leadership, team and responsibility. In LV2, you begin the process of redesigning yourself and your world.

Level 3 – Leadership

Level 3 – Leadership is an opportunity to integrate the Level 1 and 2 Trainings into a community and global context, living your life from the “Pillars of Leadership” to create a world that works for everyone.

http://makingrelatives.org/trainings/

Quote
Tiospaye began as a shared family vision between three women – Crystal Wolfchild, Monica Colvig and their mother, Della Romero. In the Dakota language, Tiospaye means, “The Making of Relatives,” a concept that lies at the heart of their profound trainings. Having attended a similar transformational training in Los Angeles in 2008, Crystal was inspired to share her experiences with her mother and sister, and after participating they agreed that such work was a powerful vehicle for transforming one’s life. Having staffed trainings in Los Angeles, Denver and Albuquerque they decided to bring the education home to Durango, Colorado to be shared with friends and family. With the official creation of Tiospaye in March of 2015, over 200 people have since graduated from the Levels 1, 2 and 3 Trainings.

http://makingrelatives.org/about-us/
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on January 26, 2017, 12:21:36 am
Quote
Della Romero

Della Romero is a co-founder of Tiospaye with her two daughters and brings a deep commitment to transforming families and envisions a world that works for everyone. Besides being the mother of Monica and Crystal, she has a son, Keith, and four beautiful, amazing grandchildren! Della is a Sundancer of over 14 years and this practice is the basis of her spiritual foundation.

Della is a certified life coach, massage therapist and fitness instructor. Della holds a BA in photojournalism and an MA in family therapy with emphasis on Youth at Risk and has worked in this field 16 plus years.

http://makingrelatives.org/about-us/

I believe this is the same person:

Quote
Della Romero - Pueblo/Ute:  Della is a Sundancer and pipe carrier. Della attended past Wisdom Keepers gatherings at the request of deceased Wisdom Keepers Elder, Grandmother Bertha Grove, who has designated Della to carry on her work.  Della's work as supervisor in family therapy includes experiences with youth on her reservation and other Indian centers.  Her dedication to youth lends itself to providing needed care and sharing of tribal traditions for the coming Seven Generations.

https://fhwisdomkeepers.blogspot.com/2013/02/elders-and-presenters-of-2013.html


Quote
Name   Tiospaye
Status   Good Standing   
Formation date   12/06/2014
ID number   20141745269   
Form   Nonprofit Corporation
Jurisdiction   Colorado
Principal office street address   131 Romero Dr., Ignacio, CO 81137, United States
Principal office mailing address   PO Box 1125, Ignacio, CO 81137, United States
Registered Agent
Name   Della M Romero
Street address   131 Romero Dr., Ignacio, CO 81137, United States
Mailing address   PO Box 1125, Ignacio, CO 81137, United States

https://www.sos.state.co.us/biz/BusinessEntityDetail.do?quitButtonDestination=BusinessEntityResults&nameTyp=ENT&entityId2=20141745269&srchTyp=ENTITY&fileId=20141745269&masterFileId=20141745269

Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on January 26, 2017, 12:46:32 am
I've no real clue what this organization is, but it looks like a source of what Della Romero and her daughters are doing now:

Quote
Community Leadership Foundation is honored to increase education and entrepreneurship opportunities for the Ontological Coaching Profession. CLF Coaches have attended rigorous training programs, volunteered and studied under the best Ontological Trainers in the world, and are committed professionals.

The list of coaches includes:

Quote
Della Romero - Durango, Colorado
Crystal Wolfchild - Durango, Colorado

http://clfnm.org/coaches

Here are the trainings: http://clfnm.org/trainings

A Della Romero is listed as a "Fearless Living Coach" http://rhondabritten.com/graduates/

A Della Romero works as Multi-Systemic Therapy Supervisor for SUCAP Peaceful Spirit http://sucap.org/directory/name/della-romero/
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on January 26, 2017, 01:02:56 am
Crystal Wolfchild is a professional makeup artist http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1456270/

Monica Colvig is an attorney

Quote
Name   Colvig, Monica M.
License Status   Active
Registration / Bar Number 39918
Admission Date: 6/27/2008
Firm Name
Law Office of Monica Colvig
Business Address
PO Box 4474
Durango, CO 81302

http://www.coloradosupremecourt.us/Search/Attinfo.asp?Regnum=39918

Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on January 26, 2017, 01:32:52 am
The facilitators are Sylvia Badasci, Krista Petty Raimer, Lori Benak. http://makingrelatives.org/about-us/

Sylvia Badasci:

http://www.thenossovitchgroup.com/about-nossovitch-group/sylvia-badasci/
http://www.choicecenter.com/meet-the-trainers.asp
http://selfdiscover.org/about/workshop_trainers/
http://www.nextleveltrainings.com/intimacy-in-relationships/
http://milestonetrainings.com/pages/about/trainers-profile/

Sylvia's history includes Lifespring, that is a controversial large group awareness training (https://culteducation.com/group/1026-lifespring.html) .

Kristi Petty Raimer:

http://selfdiscover.org/apon/about/workshop_trainers/
https://boldlyembodylife.com/about/

Lori Benak:

http://www.chooseyounow.com/about-us

Lori works with Kristi on this https://boldlyembodylife.com/about/

----------

They are all trainers, they all have experience using manipulation and persuasion.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on January 26, 2017, 02:30:05 am
Quote
Tiospaye’s dynamic Transformational Trainings are based on the development of Emotional Intelligence and follow an Experiential Education model that explores the nature of relationship, leadership and what it means to live an elevated life.

Quote
Through our dynamic Levels 1, 2 and 3 trainings, we invite you to break through your limiting beliefs to move boldly in the direction of becoming an authentic and empowered leader who creates extraordinary results in all areas of life.

Those are examples of their Nuage speak.

Level 1 costs $395. Level 2 costs $695. Level 3, over the course of four weekends, costs $1,195.

To register you pay your money and agree to:

Quote
Due to the experiential nature of our program, pregnant women are not allowed to participate till after their baby is born. I understand and agree that I am not pregnant.

Quote
I am committed to attending this workshop as scheduled.

http://makingrelatives.org/trainings/

I assume they have everyone sign a waiver before each training. That would be interesting to look over.




Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 01, 2018, 08:43:06 pm
I’ve done this program, with all three of them, Crystal, Della, and Monica.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 01, 2018, 08:50:34 pm
I’d be more than happy to tell you anything you would like to know. I did a three levels, but did not complete Leadership, for numerous reasons.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 01, 2018, 11:14:42 pm
I’d be more than happy to tell you anything you would like to know. I did a three levels, but did not complete Leadership, for numerous reasons.

Anything you can tell us will be helpful.

How did you get involved?

Did you sign a waiver of any sort?

Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 01, 2018, 11:54:26 pm
They use your friends, or family to enroll you. Yes I signed a waiver, only after I had already paid, and were informed upon paying there would be no refunds.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 02, 2018, 12:20:11 am
They use your friends, or family to enroll you. Yes I signed a waiver, only after I had already paid, and were informed upon paying there would be no refunds.

I got pulled into another form of large group awareness training, by a close friend. I probably signed something.

Looking over Tiospaye trainings, I see a lot of similar rhetoric, with a little more New Age/pseudo-indigenous twist.

Did you go through an experience of being love bombed? All these types of trainings tend to involve triggering a wash of good feelings, community, and commitment.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 12:29:04 am
You go through so much. In level one, a ceremony you choose, I chose The Red Tent. Level two, one is assigned to you, I was a lady in white. Leadership would be more of the “love bombing” the fourth weekend is called a love fest, but I didn’t attend, I walked away before then.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 02, 2018, 01:08:17 am
That sounds devastating. The training I took part in did not have the "dress up" ceremonial aspect to them. I think anything ceremonial in large group awareness training, especially where we are supposed to play individual roles, makes us extra vulnerable.

Are you okay? Has enough time passed?

I'm glad that you were able to walk away.

Do they shun people who walk away?

When I look back at my own experience, now I know that I was recruited, and moved right along as if through a meat grinder. All sorts of standard manipulation techniques were used. I wanted to be a good participant.

Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 01:15:56 am
The entire process is designed to make you vulnerable, I do not agree with these programs, as that is what they are designed to do. I’m not shunned necessarily,  but probably not held in a high regard, as I openly challenged the program, trainers, coaches and  captains.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 02, 2018, 01:32:05 am
Do they use catharsis, whipping people up into emotional breakdowns?

Do they get people to spill way too much personal information? To subtly work against each other while angling to obey the leaders?

Is there much content that seems "Native American" or is is that just a superficial lure? Do participants believe they are learning secrets?

Openly challenging them must have been quite the experience.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 01:53:27 am
Yes they do all that. Yes it was hard, I was labeled difficult, mentally violent, and uncoachable. While the owner is Lakota, I don’t find her very traditional, outside of the program name, and symbolism. Her program is just a spin off from another. Similar to MITT, and Landmark.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 02, 2018, 02:18:44 am
I really appreciate you sharing your experience with us.

Do they have specific targets like college students, midlife, people in transition? Does their popularity seem to be increasing?

Do these apply?:

    Control of communication
    Emotional and behavioral manipulation
    Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
    Obsessive demands for confession
    Agreement that the ideology is faultless
    Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
    Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
    Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect

(Lifton's reform environment themes https://culteducation.com/brainwashing8.html)

Have you seen any danger signs, other than the fact that these types of trainings are abusive and especially unsafe for some people - as in any signs of stalking, hacking, whisper campaigns, isolating people from families and friends?

Any ideas on how to shed more light on them?
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 02:52:20 am
You are isolated, as you are not supposed to speak about the program, only to enroll people into their vision. The trainer, assumes total control from minute one. You cannot do anything without permission, speak, use the restroom, chew gum, alter your mind in any way. Our trainers were psychologists, and psychology is heavily used, manipulatively. In my opinion, though I can’t prove it I’d say a NLP, and a type of hypnotic affect as well. Level one and two breaks you down with catharsis, used for trauma bonding. They humiliate you, I was not allowed to use the restroom when I started my menstrual cycle. In level one they teach there is a million ways to do things, but by leadership there is only one way, and it’s their way. They want you speaking in a certain way, using certain speak. If you call them out, it’s not really them you’re upset with, it’s yourself. There is no integrity, as they cannot walk their talk, no accountability, and no transparency. They are persistent with trying to enroll people, or get them to the next level. 
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 02, 2018, 03:21:58 am
I am so sorry you went through this abuse. This is appalling.

This sounds like a toxic blend of classic large group awareness training and destructive cultic group.

Is this all rotating around one leader?

As psychologists they know how to influence people, guide them. So in this case they are using their skills for outright profit, power and evil. NLP type techniques, salesmanship, trauma bonding, hypnotism, lulling and redirecting - sounds like they are using it all.

All of this is classic, including "If you call them out, it’s not really them you’re upset with, it’s yourself." I hate that shit and we see it often here in the fraudsters we research.

Do you know if any complaints have been filed like with the Better Business Bureau or health licensing board?
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 03:43:09 am
I don’t know, I didn’t. I Only know of one other participant who feels traumatized too, and she didn’t  either. Most everyone idolizes the program, as saving them, feeling they have been spiritually transformed, and enlightened. It was suggested, they suffer from stockholm syndrome. Even I have found it difficult to speak out about it. I don’t hate them, they were manipulated too, and I believe they are saving people, but they are choosing willful ignorance. They are a non profit, I’m not sure how that works for filing a complaint.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 03:48:58 am
There are many senior coaches (previous participants) , the captains (owners), and usually two-three trainers. They have a board that includes some coaches, and usually one will facilitate the current training, though I had all three of the owners facilitate during mine.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 03:51:18 am
*They believe they are saving people, I don’t, that was a typing error.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 02, 2018, 03:55:06 am
I definitely understand the difficulty in speaking out.

I'll start looking around tomorrow for ideas on where complaints could go.

And honestly, I believe talking this over here on the forum, online, goes a long way to increase understanding of this group.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 04:15:53 am
I demanded a refund for Leadership, through a loophole I got it, and they didn’t want bad press in a small town. Though, with my check they insinuated I wasn’t committed to transformation, and needed physiological help. Before that they were saying how powerful I was, up until I started calling them out, and holding them accountable. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever been through, but I learned a lot about corruption, manipulation, and how to stand up for myself.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 02, 2018, 08:21:48 pm
Della M Romero was licensed in Colorado as a Certified Addiction Counselor II, License ACB.0003869, expired 01/07/2010.

Then licensed as Certified Addiction Counselor III, License ACC.0006878, expired 08/31/2017.

Search here: https://apps.colorado.gov/dora/licensing/Lookup/LicenseLookup.aspx

There is a file a complaint option on that site. Might be worth doing.

Della M Romero says she is a massage therapist. She does not seem to be licensed in Colorado. She needs to not practice until she is licensed. https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/dora/Massage_Therapy

File a complaint: https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/dora/DPO_File_Complaint

Romero claims this: "and an MA in family therapy with emphasis on Youth at Risk"  http://makingrelatives.org/about-us-2/ - but that is almost meaningless without more information and proper licensing.

I notice that this group is now going after teens: http://makingrelatives.org/teen-tio/

Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 02, 2018, 08:45:34 pm
Quote
An impressionable friend of mine has been posting about his “transformation” with Tiospaye. He is now talking about moving there (Durango, CO) and my info is limited. He is being preyed upon - does anyone have any stories or info I can share with him?

Quote
Hey there,

I have family members that have attended these events.

    My wife:

Super weird! She was not "allowed" to tell me what happened as Level 1, part of me wanted to go just to get the details but was afraid of possible brainwashing (can anyone really say they are immune? we are weak minded beings) still to this day will not tell me the "activities" that went on. She came back mindlessly quoting phrases. She wants to go back for L2 even after I shared with her the concept of LGAT and she basically just brushed it off. "Its not exactly like that, similar but WAY, way different." (yeah ok) She also had some sexual abuse in her past and came out with concept like "its my fault" (WTF????)

    Wife's Mother

She is the one that got my wife involved and has done ALL the levels, keeps flying there at HUGE cost because "If you dont come back now the negative positive effects are going to wear off not hold and you will snap out of it lose your newfound skills" After attending all levels she has gone back twice to be a "trainer" basically giving them free hands while constantly trying to recruit and donating money.

Every single problem can be solved by attending according to them. My wife was doing a weird power play for a while too, citing "you need to go to strengthen our bond"; "couples that go are very close and I want that for us"; "why wont you just go to L1, if you at least tried..."

Luckily the mother ran out of money and the availability to keep going (but still stays in contact, ugh) and my wife only ended up attending to L2 and then had to take a hiatus so it seems to have worn off for now, not for lack of them hounding her and calling her weekly for "guilt=trips check-ins."

https://www.reddit.com/r/lgat/comments/8czety/tiospaye/
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 11:10:26 pm
Yes, I called Della out in leadership because she is not a psychologist, and they are using psychology, with no accountability. They are causing damage, but hide behind their waver. I tried telling them, spirituality is not for sale, but they cannot here me.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 11:12:21 pm
*hear me
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 11:22:51 pm
It’s not ok with me, I tried standing up, I tried telling my group but they couldn’t hear me. I tried.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 02, 2018, 11:29:38 pm
I told Crystal who is Lakota, that the red road is not for sale. I’m not Lakota, but I know, and it’s why I’m speaking here.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 03, 2018, 01:11:44 am
Della M Romero identifies as Pueblo and Ute: https://www.fhwisdomkeepers.org/elders

Quote
Della Romero (Flies High) has followed the Lakota Ways as a Sun Dancer, a supporter, and a participator of Lakota ceremonial life.   She served her teacher, Southern Ute Grandmother Bertha Grove (Red Earth Woman) for 20 years as a ‘helper’.

Recent retirement from Southern Ute Community Action Programs : http://www.sudrum.com/health/2017/12/08/romero-retires/

Water, are Crystal Wolfchild and Monica Colvig her actual biological daughters? If Crystal is Lakota, I am assuming through her father? Is Monica also?

Is this group telling people that they are "making relatives" of their followers/victims?
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Diana on June 03, 2018, 04:47:45 am
Piff, this Della Romero does not pass the smell test. As with most phonies and fakes her "Tribal affiliations" are generic and vague. Which Ute Tribe is she from and there are over 19 Pueblo Tribes in New Mexico. Which one is hers? I'm not buying it

Also from Sudrum.com, if you read the small blurb about her retirement it doesn't say she's a Tribal member....it just says she worked "with" the Southern Ute Tribe. And if she had been from "any" other Tribe they would have mentioned it

Here's the entire article?? Della Romero celebrates her retirement Wednesday, Dec. 6 after working for 15 years with Southern Ute Community Action Programs. Tribal Services Director, Loren Sekayumptewa gifted Romero with a small white elephant, which holds significance to her Tribe, and a blessing at her retirement party.
I highlighted some strange sentences that doesn't make sense. The one about her work with the Southern Ute Tribe and the one where the director gifts her an a small white elephant which holds significance to her Tribe???? WTF!? This woman doesn't make sense

One more thing, she has the ugly and very bad black hair dye job. Sure sign she's a big ol' fake. Lol...





Della M Romero identifies as Pueblo and Ute: https://www.fhwisdomkeepers.org/elders

Quote
Della Romero (Flies High) has followed the Lakota Ways as a Sun Dancer, a supporter, and a participator of Lakota ceremonial life.   She served her teacher, Southern Ute Grandmother Bertha Grove (Red Earth Woman) for 20 years as a ‘helper’.

Recent retirement from Southern Ute Community Action Programs : http://www.sudrum.com/health/2017/12/08/romero-retires/

Water, are Crystal Wolfchild and Monica Colvig her actual biological daughters? If Crystal is Lakota, I am assuming through her father? Is Monica also?

Is this group telling people that they are "making relatives" of their followers/victims?
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 03, 2018, 03:44:48 pm
Yes that is interesting, isn’t it.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 03, 2018, 03:58:55 pm
Thanks Diana, yeah I wondered about this too.

Wonder what else we're going to find out about this group.

I've started looking over the trainers and some show up in online reports about fraud, when they were working prior schemes. The entire operation looks very dodgy.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 03, 2018, 04:19:42 pm
Our trainers were Silvia, Krista, and Roger. I believe they they all worked for MITT. Roger did, when I did my training. Silvia, and Krista started their own groups, that participants usually go on to do. They are her biological children, though they may have different fathers, I’m not sure. Their brother is a sun dancer, I believe.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 03, 2018, 04:24:04 pm
We were told that Tiospaye means making relatives, and yes Tiospaye is a big family, and they are very loyal to Crystal.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 03, 2018, 04:43:53 pm
We were told that Tiospaye means making relatives, and yes Tiospaye is a big family, and they are very loyal to Crystal.

Is Crystal basically the charismatic leader?

Is there an inner circle, other than the trainers?
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 03, 2018, 05:30:08 pm
Crystal was a make up artist in California, she did a training, MITT I believe. She decided her vision was to bring it to Durango. She is the founder of Tiospaye, and the owner, along with her mother, and sister, which is just a spin off, tweaked a little. After you complete training, you can become a part of the program. A senior coach, a captain, and be on the board. You have to be selected though. It’s very odd, and rare to see these programs in such small communities, and to have those specific trainers come here. The are usually reserved to big cities.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 03, 2018, 10:32:00 pm
On Crystal Wolfchild's Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/crystal.wolfchild she lists training at MITT at Marina del Ray California.

MITT is a spin off of Lifespring. MITT (Mastery in Transformational Training) https://www.mittraining.com/. The company has not responded to two complaints filed with Better Business Bureau https://www.bbb.org/losangelessiliconvalley/business-reviews/self-improvement-coach/mitt-in-culver-city-ca-13193156

Some analysis of MITT http://old.freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=123 . There are many negative reviews online.

Crystal Wolfchild and Della Romero are also coaches in "The Community Leadership Foundation". http://clfnm.org/coaches Tuition to work up to coach level looks to be several thousand dollars.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 03, 2018, 11:27:50 pm
My training was $2,300 for level one, advanced and leadership. Yes, spinoffs from Lifespring, and EST, with roots in Scientology. They are trying to hold a world leadership conference here, and build their own facilities.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 04, 2018, 01:14:58 am
Preliminary work on the heritage of Della Romero and family:

Silverton Colorado 2010:

Quote
Romero's Restaurant y Cantina had 10 employees working Sunday, all of them related to the Romero family.

One of them, Crystal Wolfchild, came from Encino, Calif., to help out. Family and friends who came within 20 feet of the restaurant were roped into working, she said.

https://durangoherald.com/articles/11995

Quote
Business started by Lucy and George Romero, which have both passed away.

https://mobilerving.com/business-preview/romeros-restaurant

Quote
ROMERO,  GEORGE
  -  Husband  of  Maria  de  la  Luz  Montoya  “Lucy”;  Father  of  Della,  Glenda, Georgann, Berna, Melva, Marlene and Eli Romero; Son of Natividad Romero - Feb 2, 1923 - Feb 27, 1995

ROMERO, MARIA DE LA LUZ MONTOYA “LUCY”
Wife of George Romero, Mother of Della Romero, Glenda Romero, Georgann Romero Valdez, Bernadette
Romero  Ernst,  Melva  Jean  Romero  Caveness,  Marlene  Romero  Archuleta  and  Eli  Romero,  Daughter  of
Fermin and Delubina Montoya  -  July 25, 1928 – Dec 8, 2002 

Buried at Hillside Cemetery, Silverton, San Juan County, Colorado, USA http://www.silvertonhillside.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Hillside_R.pdf

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/96729989/george-romero
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 04, 2018, 02:20:23 am
Parents of Della M Romero are George Romero (son of Natividad Romero) and Maria de la Luz Montoya  “Lucy” (daughter  of Fermin and Delubina Montoya).

1940 did not have designations for what is now variously listed as Mexican, Mexican American, Chicano, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Another Hispanic, Latino, Spanish origin.

It did have Indian which is now American Indian or Alaska Native.

Both the Romeros and the Montoyas are listed as white. Not Indian.

Quote
From 1790 to 1950, census takers determined the race of the Americans they counted, sometimes taking into account how individuals were perceived in their community
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/06/11/chapter-1-race-and-multiracial-americans-in-the-u-s-census/

1940 census:

George Romero, 17 years old in 1940 census, born New Mexico, parents Victor and Natividad. Everyone born in New Mexico, everyone listed white. 1940 location Los Pinos, Rio Arriba, New Mexico.

Luz Montoya, 10 years old in 1940 census, born Colorado, parents Fermin and Delubina Montoya. Everyone born in Colorado, everyone listed white. 1940 location Conejos, Colorado.

I used https://www.familysearch.org/search for this, unfortunately you now need a free account before doing any searches.


Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 04, 2018, 02:51:59 am
I had heard something similar to that.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 04, 2018, 02:54:48 am
Crystal Dawn Wolfchild was born in 1981, mother Romero, father I believe has surname Wolfchild.

I believe that her father says that he "grew up on the Lower Sioux Indian Reservation".

https://www.inforum.com/news/4105720-sioux-wants-supreme-court-grant-them-promised-land-heart-minnesota

Photo from http://makingrelatives.org/about-us-2/

He may be Sheldon Peters Wolfchild https://www.inforum.com/news/4105720-sioux-wants-supreme-court-grant-them-promised-land-heart-minnesota

Even if Crystal has Lakota heritage - her family company is straight up New Age with a thin veneer of pretendian. http://makingrelatives.org/
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 04, 2018, 02:56:37 am
Mixed up links in the prior post, add in https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0937981/bio
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 04, 2018, 03:00:03 am
We were told that if 1% of the population did this training, the world would shift, they believe they are saving people.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 04, 2018, 03:04:17 am
We were told that if 1% of the population did this training, the world would shift, they believe they are saving people.

So they can recruit people who really do want to make a difference. And keep them because they otherwise may feel guilty for not doing the savior work.

Do you think Della, Crystal, Monica completely believe what they are saying? Or did they sometimes appear cynical?
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 04, 2018, 03:26:39 am
Concerning Monica Colvig, Esq.:

Quote
Monica received her BA from Fort Lewis College in Durango, Colorado in 2002 with a major in Latin American history. She received her Juris Doctor from Lewis and Clark School of Law in Portland, Oregon in 2005 where she also served as president of the Minority Law Student Association and received the Cornelius Honor for scholarship, leadership and contribution to the law school community.  She practiced law in Portland for three years before returning home to Colorado with her family.

http://previouscaia.coloradoadvocacy.org/speaker/monica-colvig-esq/

Colvig is a married surname.

Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 04, 2018, 03:40:36 am
I’d like to believe they truly believe they are helping people, but have doubts for several reasons. We were told, they want a certain kind of people, “affluent people.” The fundraising money we raised to help those who couldn’t afford it wasn’t used completely for that. They rejected my groups idea to have a fund to help pay for people who couldn’t afford it.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 04, 2018, 03:42:32 am
If they really believed what they are selling, and saying, they would be able to walk their talk.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Water on June 04, 2018, 03:45:30 am
We were constantly told to trust the process, yet I was told the process wasn’t where it should be, because of me. They weren’t trusting the process.
Title: Re: Tiospaye
Post by: Piff on June 04, 2018, 01:33:02 pm
You go through so much. In level one, a ceremony you choose, I chose The Red Tent. Level two, one is assigned to you, I was a lady in white. Leadership would be more of the “love bombing” the fourth weekend is called a love fest, but I didn’t attend, I walked away before then.

Water can you tell us more about what The Red Tent ceremony is in this group?

What does it mean to be a "lady in white" in Level two? Are there other roles that people are assigned to play?

I'm looking over photos of graduates, does each level get a particular jacket? What is the usual gender and age mix?
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 04, 2018, 06:36:21 pm
In level one they have several categories to pick, the trainer names them, and you pick which one to be in. Beforehand the trainer gives a speech about ceremonies, and their relevance in cultures. The one we pick is our ceremonial expression of the theme. We have to enact our ceremony, with dress, and props. In level two they place you in the theme they want you to perform, again with dress and enacting. The ladies in white had to be silent, we couldn’t speak at all until after our our ceremony. The ages ranged from 19 to 60s, I believe.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 04, 2018, 06:56:01 pm
The red tent was the ceremony for women on their moon, going into the red tent, while bonding with her sisters, during the full moon. The ladies in white were given that theme, because we were the most vocally outspoken of our group, it was called our stretch, to be silent.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 04, 2018, 07:07:49 pm
There was a lot of emphasis on the divine feminine and masculine. The women were basically told we have emasculated men. We had to get dressed up for the men, makeup, hair, clothes, and to honor them, bow to them as they walked by us. Later to prove we were in feminine grace, we had to go to a bar and get a man to buy us a drink. This infuriated me the most.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Piff on June 04, 2018, 09:16:51 pm
There was a lot of emphasis on the divine feminine and masculine. The women were basically told we have emasculated men. We had to get dressed up for the men, makeup, hair, clothes, and to honor them, bow to them as they walked by us. Later to prove we were in feminine grace, we had to go to a bar and get a man to buy us a drink. This infuriated me the most.

That would infuriate me too.

This group sounds utterly humiliating and exhausting.

Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Piff on June 04, 2018, 09:27:37 pm
Water, thank you for continuing to educate us about this group.


I think you have already touched on many of these warning signs, but just in case, do Tiospaye Durango followers fit this list?

*Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

    1.  Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

    2.  Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred.
Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

   3.   Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

    4.  Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

    5.  Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

   6.   Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

  7.    A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

    8.  Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

    9.  Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

   10.   Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

https://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html - also a "Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader" at this link
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 04, 2018, 10:04:57 pm
Yes to most. I woke up one morning, and told my group that there is a portion of the population that cannot be hypnotized, cannot be programmed, and cannot be controlled. Crystal quickly interjected, asking where was I going with that conversation. I replied, I’m just trying to encourage independent thinking, I haven’t seen any. They quickly had a secret meeting with me, without the group, or my leader. Monica told me, I was sick and they call people like me “smart rats”. Della said, “we should have a cohesive happy group right now”, and I was preventing that. They only presented one sided information, so I would present the other side. I was interfering with integration of the program, and they wanted happy Leadersheep, that’s what Crystal called us, and it bothered no one but myself. They fit the very definition, in my opinion and I would never allow anyone I care about to ever do any of these programs. I try warn all people. Its  been two years and it’s still hard for me. I’m never unkind when I see them, but I try to avoid them. I saw your original inquiry, and thought I’d share my story, I’m the minority however, I have my own mind, thoughts and beliefs. No one gets brainwash me.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Piff on June 04, 2018, 10:29:37 pm
I am so glad that you got yourself away.

Everything you've described about Tiospaye Durango is classic text book cultic abuse/ destructive large group awareness training.

Ultimately the only ones who benefit from this fraudulent operation are Crystal Dawn Wolfchild, Monica M Colvig, and Della M Romero.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 04, 2018, 11:33:28 pm
Thank you.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 04, 2018, 11:45:37 pm
This newage mess is not Lakota. Tiospaye is a Lakota word, but what they told you is not what it means. Those fake ceremonies are newage, not Lakota. The red tent stuff is particularly concerning, especially with the oppressive sex-role stereotypes they are force-feeding women about being submissive to men. That is right in line with what others have reported about some of those groups being recruiting fronts for sex traffickers. I don't know if this group is involved in that stuff, but it's a red flag, and something to watch out for. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4598.0
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 05, 2018, 12:13:35 am
Yes, that was a concern of mine. One of my leaders said, by 4th weekend you won’t care if everyone sees you naked, a big red flag went up. Especially because they take you to an undisclosed location for a “love fest.” Even if nothing occurs there, I feel they’re grooming.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 05, 2018, 02:41:02 am
To answer the question about the jackets, if you complete leadership you get a jacket. Groups are numbered. LV1 - wherever they are currently. It stands for Living Vision.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Piff on June 05, 2018, 04:27:43 am
I've uploaded here some photo clips of the jackets.

Are group members told to wear these in public too?

I've been able to identify Della, Crystal, and Monica in photos. Also Crystal's partner in a group leadership photo. I don't know if Monica's husband is involved.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 05, 2018, 09:59:26 am
Crystal is no longer with her partner (Sage) they have a child together but parted ways. He is a really good friend of my sisters, which is how we came to be involved in it at all. I don’t know the circumstances but I’m hoping he is waking up. Monica’s husband was involved when I went through level one. I’ve only seen the Jackets once when I was in leadership, on two of our leaders. We were at a public event, doing a fundraiser. This town is well aware of Tiospaye, she uses the local Agape to recruit/enroll. At a local restaurant here, they stream Agape every Sunday. They are also very loyal to Crystal, and most affiliated have attended Tiospaye.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Piff on June 05, 2018, 02:07:01 pm
What sort of healing claims do they make? Do they claim they can heal cancer?

Also, do they claim that health challenges may be due to past lives or "wrong thoughts"? Do they apply metaphors as supposed causes of health challenges?

I see that Crystal Wolfchild did some heavy recruiting after a Romero family reunion:

Quote
I want to extend my hand and heart to everyone of you if there's anyone in need of physical healing through the body and mental emotional healing...that often shows up in the body (waking us up).

Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 05, 2018, 02:52:02 pm
They are big advocators of ho’oponopono. The mindset here is very open or closed, depending on how you want to view it. Everyone practices Reiki, yoga, body talk, energy work. It’s very hippie here, very loving compassionate people. So yes, they believe they are healing people, and that anything can be healed. Most everyone smudges, and things of that nature. I never heard any specific claims. I wasn’t enrolled in a typical way though.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 05, 2018, 03:00:55 pm
My sister was LV1 and I was LV3, they are constantly tweaking it, by what works and what doesn’t. They also have to adjust to the type of group they’re training.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 07, 2018, 09:34:15 pm
Are these groups being told, or just talked about? Why aren’t they being protested, if ingenious people feel they are perverting teachings? Why not send someone through to see, and know? I’m white, and I told them, and I protest them, but my voice doesn’t seem to matter?
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Water on June 07, 2018, 09:42:43 pm
I’m on an IPhone, that makes ridiculous mistakes I don’t catch. I apologize for the typing errors.
*indigenous*
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 08, 2018, 08:45:07 pm
Yes, sometimes these groups have been picketed by Native activists. Sometimes there has been very direct, in-person, intervention to stop theses sorts of groups. Some of us here on this board have been involved in doing this over the decades.

Of course Indigenous people know they are frauds. It's only non-Natives who are fooled. It's actually very kind of the Native people who have stepped up to protect the nons who are being harmed.

It's not Indigenous people who are keeping these frauds in business. Yes, there are Native sellouts here and there that have allowed this to happen, but it's the fact non-Natives will pay for these fake teachings that keeps these scammers going. The thing is, there are so many of these frauds, and only so many of us who are willing to step up. It is hard, tiring work.

What generally happens with the groups that have lots of white followers and money, is they hold their events on private property. When Natives show up to protest, the workshop leaders and their white hosts call the cops. You know what is happening in America and Canada now when white people call the cops on Brown people.

Natives who have shown up to protest the theft of Indigenous ceremony have been assaulted by cops. They have been beaten and arrested for "trespassing". Just for showing up to talk to the frauds. The frauds have lied to the cops and claimed the Natives were drunk (they were not), they have claimed the Native protestors/protectors were violent (they were not). But guess who the white cops have believed?

There are events coming up this summer that will be protested, and and hopefully stopped. Every year some are chosen and targeted to be dealt with. But it's a matter of triage. There are way more white people who want to play Indian than there are people who can risk their lives and freedom to stop them.

What will you do to help stop it? Speaking up here is good. It is a great start, to help get the word out, and I thank you for that. But Natives are at very high risk for being murdered and imprisoned for doing this work. It can't all be on Natives. It also takes allies stepping up to stop exploiters, and to stop the many nuagers they know who line the exploiters pockets. Until that happens, these groups will continue to flourish.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Piff on June 11, 2018, 03:08:28 pm
Info from https://tiospaye.regfox.com/v9-level-1

Level 1 - Explore- July 27-29 2018 ($495.00)

Level One, Two and Three Combo Deal ($2,395.00)

Level One: July 27th-29th,
Level Two: August 15th-19th,
Level Three:
Kickoff Meeting: August 23, 2018
1st Weekend: September 7-9, 2018
2nd Weekend: October 5-7, 2018
3rd Weekend: November 2-4 2018
4th Weekend: November 30 - December 2 2018

Tuition paid is non refundable.

Money back guarantee on level one and two but you have to fully complete one and two first. No exceptions. Written request has to come in within 48 hours.

No participants allowed who are or will be pregnant during the training.

Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Piff on June 11, 2018, 04:04:44 pm
Sylvia Badasci is a freelance trainer working with them.

Sylvia is with ChoiceCenter https://www.choicecenter.com/ . Tiospaye Durango is a Crystal Wolfchild / Monica Colvig/ Della Romero spin off of ChoiceCenter. The two companies use many of the same terms such as "experiential learning" and  "Emotional Intelligence".

Sylvia Badasci used to work with Lifespring.

About Lifespring:

Quote
Lawsuits were filed against Lifespring for charges ranging from involuntary servitude to wrongful death. The suits often said that the trainings placed participants under extreme psychological stress in order to elicit change. Lifespring was ordered to pay money to participants who required psychiatric hospitalization and to relatives of members who committed suicide, or otherwise died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifespring#Lawsuits

From a former member of a large group awareness training that included Sylvia Badasci:

Quote
They brainwashed me and now I have to undo the damage that was brought about by my "experiential education"

 https://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/cecny-consulting-and-educational-center-of-ny-selfdisoverorg-dr-ray-blanchard-sylvia-badasci-bettie-spruill-krista-petty-raimer-francine-rahe/nationwide/cecny-consulting-and-educational-center-of-ny-selfdisoverorg-dr-ray-blanchard-sylvia-1270958

Sylvia Badasci is leading the upcoming Tiospaye Durango Relationships Course. Prerequisite is the Level One course.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180611155734/http://makingrelatives.org/relationship/
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Piff on June 11, 2018, 04:34:00 pm
https://web.archive.org/web/20180611161024/http://makingrelatives.org/teen-tio/

Recruiting teens:

Quote
Tiospaye is excited to invite and share the 1st Teen Tio training coming this summer, June 8-10, 2018. Thanks to the Living Vision 5 Leadership Team, many people and businesses in our local community have provided financial support to make this happen! The funds raised provide this gift of transformation free of charge for 50 teens, ages 13-17.

$21,749 in donations.

Three day training for teens then coaching for four weeks by phone.

From one of the fund raising trainers:

Quote
Are you as alarmed as I am about the recent increase of suicides among our youth? Do you struggle to find a way to contribute the way you would like to? I felt that way too, but then I found this amazing nonprofit called "Tiospaye".
As part of a leadership program I am involved with through Tiospaye we are creating “Teen Tio”, designed for ages 13-17. Teen Tio is a camp that guides youth to empower themselves in developing profound self-acceptance, understanding, connection to others, and a deep sense of purpose and belonging, including stepping into leadership and community service.

Jani McGuire "is facilitating our Teen Tiospaye Transformational Trainings".

From her site:  "I am a Medium, Certified Professional Coach, Facilitator, Author, Entrepreneur, Goddess and Speaker."

https://www.liveintruthnow.com/about She does psychic tarot readings, chakra readings, and something to do with indigo children.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Piff on June 11, 2018, 05:41:24 pm
Crystal Wolfchild promotes false health conspiracy beliefs such as: vaccines cause autism and chemo causes cancer.

The current Level 1 – Explore Training Facilitator Jorge Haddock "has facilitated workshops, all over the world, focusing on 'beingness'."

Level 2 – Advanced Training Facilitator Krista Petty Raimer also runs this: https://boldlyembodylife.com/about/ "She holds a MA in Transpersonal Psychology from Naropa University".

Level 3 – Leadership Training Facilitator Lori Benak is also a "wellness coach and personal trainer" http://ultrafit4life.com/challenge

http://makingrelatives.org/about-us-2/

Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: spacebatsquirreltoes on July 22, 2019, 05:55:59 pm
Yes, sometimes these groups have been picketed by Native activists. Sometimes there has been very direct, in-person, intervention to stop theses sorts of groups. Some of us here on this board have been involved in doing this over the decades.

Of course Indigenous people know they are frauds. It's only non-Natives who are fooled. It's actually very kind of the Native people who have stepped up to protect the nons who are being harmed.

It's not Indigenous people who are keeping these frauds in business. Yes, there are Native sellouts here and there that have allowed this to happen, but it's the fact non-Natives will pay for these fake teachings that keeps these scammers going. The thing is, there are so many of these frauds, and only so many of us who are willing to step up. It is hard, tiring work.

What generally happens with the groups that have lots of white followers and money, is they hold their events on private property. When Natives show up to protest, the workshop leaders and their white hosts call the cops. You know what is happening in America and Canada now when white people call the cops on Brown people.

Natives who have shown up to protest the theft of Indigenous ceremony have been assaulted by cops. They have been beaten and arrested for "trespassing". Just for showing up to talk to the frauds. The frauds have lied to the cops and claimed the Natives were drunk (they were not), they have claimed the Native protestors/protectors were violent (they were not). But guess who the white cops have believed?

There are events coming up this summer that will be protested, and and hopefully stopped. Every year some are chosen and targeted to be dealt with. But it's a matter of triage. There are way more white people who want to play Indian than there are people who can risk their lives and freedom to stop them.

What will you do to help stop it? Speaking up here is good. It is a great start, to help get the word out, and I thank you for that. But Natives are at very high risk for being murdered and imprisoned for doing this work. It can't all be on Natives. It also takes allies stepping up to stop exploiters, and to stop the many nuagers they know who line the exploiters pockets. Until that happens, these groups will continue to flourish.

Hello DefendtheSacred, my purpose in joining the forum was to ask how I may be able to show up and suport yall in person while I'm in Durango this summer. Not sure what exactly to say or ask except that.
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Pineapple on September 20, 2020, 04:20:19 am
I've uploaded here some photo clips of the jackets.

Are group members told to wear these in public too?

I've been able to identify Della, Crystal, and Monica in photos. Also Crystal's partner in a group leadership photo. I don't know if Monica's husband is involved.

Hey! I am curious if a Susanne Fairchild Carlson is a member of this group with Monica Colvig as well?
Title: Re: Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero
Post by: Sparks on September 21, 2020, 01:27:30 am
Hey! I am curious if a Susanne Fairchild Carlson is a member of this group with Monica Colvig as well?

Monica Colvig is an attorney [in Durango, CO] […] http://www.coloradosupremecourt.us/Search/Attinfo.asp?Regnum=39918

I found that Susanne Fairchild Carlson is a judge (https://lawyers.findlaw.com/profile/view/2973325_1), also in Durango, CO. Googling up and down, high and low, in any conceivable way, I could not find any connection whatsoever between these two persons, nor between Susanne Fairchild Carlson and Tiospaye Durango. You are barking up the wrong tree.