Author Topic: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher  (Read 27678 times)

Offline educatedindian

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Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« on: March 28, 2006, 06:10:36 pm »
She's written to me as well as several others. I'm hoping we can pin down who this alleged female "Mohawk shaman" is who mixed together Mayan and even "Mongolian" beliefs.

"The alleged "Mohawk elder" who trained me was not an "elder" as she was not old enough to have been given that title....
I may indeed have been victimized, and/or taken in by a fraud myself, but that's neither my perception of my relationship with my teacher nor my perspective on such things. The woman I studied with had problems, yes, and her underlying hatred of white people became an issue for us that led to a parting of our ways. But I loved her and respected her, and still do, in part because I have some empathy for what she has endured as a mixed blood. She knew what was happening to me, and guided me safely through it. I was happy to pay her for her help, just as I would have paid a therapist or doctor, etc., had they been able to help me. I regret nothing about my relationship with her, and nor do I harbor any ill will towards her for the aftermath of our parting. Furthermore, whatever our differences may have been, I would defend her were she to be subjected to an attack such as the one I have been subjected to on your site. She is a human being, as we all are, and one who carries the wounds of her heritage in her own heart. When such wounds become hurtful behaviors or words directed at others, how can I then judge her and make her wrong, knowing what she herself has suffered, and knowing that she is trying to heal her own wounding by working within the white culture?
....My teacher may or may not have been a fraud. I don't think she was/is. At any rate, I understood her teachings to be a synthesis of women's ways from her own culture, and from Mongolian and Mayan cultures as well. She may have been working with a mandala model similar to those Tibetan monks work with. Whatever the case may be, I have found what I learned from her to be very deep and healing, as well as philosophically and psychologically sophistated."

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2006, 06:58:29 pm »
Quote
She's written to me as well as several others. I'm hoping we can pin down who this alleged female "Mohawk shaman" is who mixed together Mayan and even "Mongolian" beliefs.


It's "Ohky Simine Forest":

http://www.awakenedwoman.com/May/dreaming_council.htm

Quote
Dreaming the Council Ways is a guidebook for the emerging shaman, the truly serious seeker, a deep and esoteric book melding the knowledge of Native American, specifically Mayan, and Mongolian shamanic traditions. Okhy Simine Forest speaks from her lifelong Mohawk identity and her many years of practice and involvement with these three traditions.

This page, I kid you not, says
Quote
Ohky makes her home in Chiapas, Mexico and visits the United States several times a year, giving retreat seminars and conferences.

Le Weaponnier

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2006, 07:17:17 pm »
Her page leads like the lost chapters pf Mao Tse Tung's 'Little Red Book'.
It just screams communist people's revolutionary rhetoric.


Phraes like "bound to the dialectic of violence and liberty." and "No ideology can make true changes or true revolutions. Only the heart of the people can do that. "


So does this mean that all along, the New Ageer's are all 'Commies'?  

At least it makes for a good laugh.

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2006, 09:17:43 pm »
Quote
Her page leads like the lost chapters pf Mao Tse Tung's 'Little Red Book'.
It just screams communist people's revolutionary rhetoric.

Phraes like "bound to the dialectic of violence and liberty." and "No ideology can make true changes or true revolutions. Only the heart of the people can do that. "


I can't see any true Maoist giving up one of their favourite words, 'ideology'. I read those passages as repeating the old newage cliché about rising above the dirty world of politics and becoming 'spiritual', with a few 'political' words thrown in to interest her intended audience; vaguely left-leaning liberals. The Beatles were much less long-winded about it in their song 'Revolution'.

walking-soft

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2006, 02:39:15 am »
I have been doing some research on Ohky Simine Forest and have found her to be more of an author of books concerning all the teaching Scarlet is talking about, also Red Lodge appears to be a on line book store.

Ohky states herself" surley I can try and understand the concepts of the ancient first inhabitants", and "I am more a historian than a practioner." taken from Dreaming the Council Ways: True Native Teachings from the Red Lodge.

Ohky was also a lecturer at Women's Well Spirituality Program. http://sunnefyre.tripod.com/ww.htm.

Ohky Gives a warning in her book that says" the author warns us against dabbling in various Spiritual traditions without first coming to an awareness that these traditions are based on ancient teachings that embrace a deep and lifelong commitment to Spiritual verities that have not changed over mellennia." Interesting comment having said she is more a historian than a practioner. I take that to mean don't dabble in things you have no right to do, ALL things come full circle, don't they???

Than added is "shamanic knowledge and practices which encompasses most of the book.

Seems contradictory to me. So did Scarlet read some books, listen to a few lectures and than begin her cultic teachings????

I will send a few emails and see what I get.
                                                 Wado

frederica

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2006, 04:54:55 am »
Did not realize they give degrees in this stuff, for PHD Grads and Doctoral Candiates. Scarlet is listed on the Pacifica Graduate Institute Website. http://www.mythinglinks.org/jung~ect.html            World Wild Links to Myths, Fairy Tales, Folklore, Sacred Arts and Sacred Traditions. Lots of Jung and Freud. frederica

frederica

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2006, 04:58:28 am »

frederica

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Offline educatedindian

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2006, 05:16:42 pm »
Best I can tell, Forest doesn't have a thing to do with any actual Mohawk beliefs or Mohawk people. She claims to be from Quebec with one French parent and one Mohawk, but never mentions a reserve. Some sites say vaguely she's of  Mohawk descent.

As far as I know, talking about a "Red Lodge" is not part of any Six Nations beliefs. They'd talk about the Longhouse.

Forest is an English name. Is Simine French? Is Ohky a Mohawk name? Sometimes spelled Ohki.

Seems like Kinney's breaking what her teacher taught her: "In addition, some of these practitioners have established what they call 'shamanic institutions' that offer instruction in these supposed 'techniques.' I ask myself, how can people institutionalize shamanic ways?. "

And for someone claiming to be a Mayan shaman, she makes some obvious mistakes:
"From Mayan prophesy, she claims that the year 2013 is the beginning of the new cycle, which "heralds the end of pyramidal societies and the establishment of egalitarian societies, a great return to the ancient native Council Ways...She calls this the return of the plumed serpent, Quetzacoatl."

Q was the Aztec name. Mayans called him Kulkulcan. Also, she never says which Mayan people. The Mayans are over two dozen groups and hundreds of communities.

Medicine wheels aren't part of either Mohawk or Mayan beliefs either. She seems to be pulling all of this out of Nuage beliefs, along with "power animals", "soul retrieval", "rainbow warriors" and lucid dreaming.
And out of over 160 sites she's on, almost every single one was a Nuage bookstore or selling her seminars.

She contradicts herself repeatedly. Her homepage:
http://www.redwindcouncils.org/HTML/vision.htm
"She has practiced & taught the ancient ways of shamans from the Maya land, Mongolia and Canada for over 25 years. Ohki brings a unified practice of these traditional ways at the Red Wind centers of New Mexico, Boston and Chiapas, Mexico.
OHKI'S LIFE WALK
When Ohki was a small baby a fireball fell on her family´s house, a great sign to the medicine people who eventually taught her that she was to be initiated into the ways of shamans. In her adolescence, Ohki pursued her spiritual journey by traveling to Asia where she studied with shamans from different traditions. In 1984, she returned to the Mohawk people in Canada and was admitted for this period of her life into the Wolf Clan at the traditional Long House of Kahnawake, part of the League of Peace of the Iroquois Nations. Of Mohawk descent, Ohki was not born on the reservation, nor is she an enrolled tribal member, thus she does not represent or teach the Mohawk traditions. In 1986, following the signs of her path, she traveled to Chiapas in southern Mexico where she continues to live, and was initiated into the world of Maya shamans. She is the founder of the RED WIND COUNCILS whose goals include spiritual training in the ancient Maya Ways. She also visits the United States regularly for retreats, Spiritual Warriorship trainings and conferences."

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2006, 05:38:21 pm »
Pacifica-
"Our degree programs, whether in the fields of psychology or mythological studies, are framed in the traditions of depth psychology....depth psychology originates in the work of Sigmund Freud and Carl G. Jung, who called attention to the importance of what lies "below the surface"of conscious awareness. This dimension of psychic reality is revealed...in the symptoms of individuals and communities.
Pacifica's monthly, three-day learning sessions take into account the professional commitments and psychological needs of the adult learner. An educational environment is created where mature students can "work" the material which is, in turn, "working them."
In 1997, Pacifica was awarded accreditation by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges, and that accreditation was reaffirmed in 2001....
Stephen Aizenstat, Ph.D.
President"

In other words, they've been around for about eight years, and you can attend a three day session once a month to get this "graduate degree". Notice it's an institute, not a university. Certainly very different from any grad school I ever heard of.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2006, 08:09:23 pm »
This woman was talked about on Indianz.com
Seems like someone did some investigating because their sister was involved with her .

http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16526&whichpage=2


This next , below starts about 3/4 of the way down the page

http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16526&whichpage=3


http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16526&whichpage=4


http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16526&whichpage=5

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2006, 06:06:13 pm »
Thanks. I'm reposting the parts of their thread dealing with Forest and sending this off to Kinney. Let's see if she can handle the truth about her beloved teacher.

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I have a question. My sister has been associated for a while now with a woman who professes to be a medicine woman. This lady who claims to be Mohawk, Okhy Simine Forest wrote a book called Dreaming the Council Ways here is a quote from an interview with her she claims..
"Dreaming the Council Ways is a guidebook for the emerging shaman, the truly serious seeker, a deep and esoteric book melding the knowledge of Native American, specifically Mayan, and Mongolian shamanic traditions. Okhy Simine Forest speaks from her lifelong Mohawk identity and her many years of practice and involvement with these three traditions. "In my apprenticeship in these three physically distant cultures, I encountered many stunning reappearing spiritual teachings -- similarities in their conception of the cosmos that translated into their arts of ancient healing and spirituality."
The lady comes to my sisters home twice a year to do ceremonies (particullarly sweat lodge ceremonies) and courses that she charges other women to attend. From what I can gather she is teaching medicine ways and even gives "names" to some of her students. After I voiced doubt and concern that it may not be right to treat sacred or spritual ways like this Ms. Forest told my sister that people like me would try to saboutage what they do so I am not told much anymore. She also has a "Non profit" organization called Cima that she collects donations for out of Chiapas Mexico. Has anyone ever heard about her? I am pretty dubious about the whole thing.
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Dang, now the New Age Shaman Wannabe/aspiring doctor or healer can buy a book and work through guidelines in their craft? Wow.
It's like a sick joke. And the worst part of this is that these yokels really believe that crap. Even if certain practices did work for a doctor or healer, do these freaks really think they can say some magic words, fast, dance, etc and this "magic" will work at their beck and command?
How incredibly arrogant. It's not really a shock to me but still the irony and lack of respect for spirituality and thieving never seems to wear off. I remember how our mother would talk to us when we were growing up about respecting medicine and not touching "this" or saying "that," those types of things.
Now it seems that New Agers will just pick up anything, or buy sacred objects on eBay just because they can, or because they want to. I was talking to Lori about this just a while ago.
It's like that thread the other day about a college erecting a sweat lodge on campus grounds (for an anthro class?) and everybody clamoring to get in and have the "experience" and when Native students objected and presented their views why they were shouted down and called racists. In the end, the white students and non-Natives got their way. This is kinda the same thing.
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This New-Age Native stuff stinks of total disrespect. I wonder what the public would say if people started charging to teach classes on turning bread into flesh and wine into blood. Or how about an archaeology class doing mock bah mitzvahs.
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I went back and read your original post and the short quote from this crazy woman. She is a new age culture thief. Want some specific information for your sister?
Kahnawá:ke is a rez. outside of Montreal. See where she says she was ‘admitted’ to a clan? Sheeeeeeeet. You is what your momma is, you ain’t ‘admitted’. There is Wolf Clan, but there ain’t no “Lone Wolf??? Clan. WTF?
Then you might want to slap your sister back to reality. Spiritually lost people are a sad thing. Your sister’s situation sounds an awful lot like someone being inducted into a cult. It’s standard operating procedure to force your inductees to distance themselves from their family and anyone else who might give them a reality check. The shyt that people fall for never ceases to amaze me.
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Lone Wolf???? LOL...
That's some shyt ain't it?
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I don't find fautl with your sister. Seems she is searching for something she considers missing from her own life. Problem is you have someone who is doing her wrong. Taking advantage of her, by ripping her off finacially and spiritually.
First thing there is never suppose to be a exchange of money for ceramonies. People that do take from people like that are ...well lets say they are gonna have to face somethings in their own life. Some call it Karma I guess. But it will come back at them. Always does...seen it happen way too many times.
Sweats have been around for a long time, by many peoples. But still not something to go farting around with. If they using it like a suana which too has been around a long time....well I still wouldn't want to be doing a ceramonial thing in a suana. Ceramony is not something to go messing around with at all.
Well she can give names all you want, but just not ndn names. Well take that back she can but they don't matter a hill of beans.
This woman is a scam artist...maybe your sister won't listen to you. Maybe ask her to ask here. Maybe she has to learn a few things on her own.
Course pickin on Mongolians is a wee bit much.
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Offline educatedindian

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2006, 06:08:49 pm »
Pt 2
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This is the letter she sent regarding the question about her link to the Kahnawake. This lady performs sweat ceremonies cleansing ceremonies etc. along with giving pricey lessons to her followers on her own brand of spirituality. She does live in a community in Chiapas and is supposedly working with the spiritual community there. She says she never represented herself as Mohawk. It sure seemes to imply that on her site though. She also never mentions who her Mongolian teachers were or where in Asia these Mongolian Shamans found her. Anyway. Here is the letter.

"Kwe, Kwe,
I am writing you and your most respected community to clarify my situation on who I am. I was recently approached by two sisters who called you to investigate me and were told by you that you did not know me. I will try to be as brief as possible.
I was admitted by the Clan Chiefs at the Long House in Kahnawake, southern Montreal in 1985. I participated in the various ceremonies of the Long House and the False Face society for two full years, and this, each time I was invited by your people. I was working in Montreal and I traveled to the reservation two or three times a month sometimes. I am of Mohawk descent. My father and mother are both half French Canadian and Mohawk as their genealogies state.
I was raised in Montreal and sent in French Canadian schools. My grandmother was the daughter of a Chief at Kanasetake, Oka and married a white man. She left, therefore losing all entitlement to her land in the Mohawk community. Her name was Marie Rose Simine. My parents were not part of the Long House or the community.
Prior to my approaching the people at Kahnawake in 1985, I had been to Europe trying to find my way in the white world. But my path took another course when Mongolian shamans showed up and I went to Asia where I was initiated into their ways. Upon my return to Montreal in 1985, every night I dreamt I was surrounded by a Council of Chiefs drumming insistently loud in my ears and I would wake up all sweating. My roots were calling me back and I had to do something about it. I was invited in several occasions by the Montagnais people, northern Quebec and inititated in their Medicine Wheel. But still the dreams were insistent. A Huron friend told me then I had to contact the Mohawk people, not just natives in general, and the dreams would stopped.
So it is with these "credentials" that I approached a woman living in Kahnawake through this Huron man. If my memory is correct her name was Anne or RoseAnne. She brought my request to the Clan Chiefs and she informed me I could join the Long House. I arrived there and I explained my situation to the Chiefs. I remember a Clan Mother said as a joke: "Yes, let's accept her, she looks more Mohawk than the whole tribe together."
I was introduced to Mr. Joe of the Turtle clan and to Mr. Earnie (is it how you spell?) of the Wolf clan as well as the Wolf clan mother. My memory is failing on her name (may be Susan?). I was told to sit on one of the benches with the Wolf clan women. I danced with the women for two years. And I remember once several women came up to me telling they really liked me because I am so focused on the dancing and give them the inspiration to stand up and dance. People are so kind, it felt to me. I also assisted to a few ceremonies where several families were leaving their Christian religion and returning to the old ways at the Long House. I remember some of the speeches Mr. Joe of the Turtle clan gave (although mostly in Mohawk) and how moving it was. My time with your people was truly a healing one. And I can only be forever grateful. I discovered a dignified & proud people who has suffered and endured, as well as the ancestors, to keep the ways alive through the Termination times.
However, it is more than possible that no one remembers me. I was quiet, most often silent, in the back top benches, and the people very discreet as is all native people everywhere. No one would talk to me a lot, and not often people would ask my name. But the fact remains that I was with you for that period. I ate bear meat with all of you after some ceremonies, meat that the men had hunted in other Mohawk territories in Quebec. I drank in several occasions with all of you the sacred strawberry corn drink the women prepared with such heart. I also remember when the Bear Chief shared with me how great it is to see me so committed and showing up at each event and festival. "That it is so important we reclaim our roots, he said, even as metis people like yourself". How kind it was of him to even bother and come up to tell me this, I was nobody among you all. I had even started learning Mohawk but my path took me away two years later.
My time with you has been a tremendous honor and privilege. I will always remember what Mr. Earnie, head chief of the Wolf clan, told me when we were driving together in his car as we were passing in front of his hot-dog stand: "Having been admitted in the League of Peace, you know, it is forever, even once you are gone elsewhere, you are still part of us." May be he was sensing my time with you all would be brief and be called away.
In the Mongolia training I received, the last time I saw the main shaman, he told me two things: one is that I am a born teacher and he gave me a series of transmissions of their knowleldge. He also told me that after him, my path was to receive deeper training from other shamans. So when I was back in Canada at the time and was admitted by your council, I approached the False Face shaman. He replied to me they only accept men in their society. Here, I was at a crossroads and did not know what to do. Spirits sent me other clear dreams and strong signs and sent me to Mexico.I arrived end of 1986 and within a month I met Maya shamans ---hard to find normally-- and was initiated directly in their ways. Then after a few years, they sent me to teach.
Since then, I have followed to the best of my abilities the design that Spirits and my teachers had for me. In no way, I have said what is not. This is too a serious matter to play with. For 20 years, I have constantly and consistently presented myself in my work in the same way always: (all of this is stated in the introduction of my only book, find info at www.redwindcouncils.org)
-That I am of Mohawk roots or descent, that I do not have a registered number, nor do I come from a reservation
-that I have been admittted at the Long House in 1985, and that I am NOT representing in any ways the Iroquois League of Peace as I am not entitled
-that I left for Mexico two years later and that I live in Chiapas, Mexico since 20 years
-that my work strives to help the Maya indigenous in resistance among whom I live
-that I teach a synthesis of Medicine wheel ways between the Mongolian, Maya and native ways, as there is a common, ancient root, knowledge I was fully initiated to impart by my teachers and entitled by them to share with non- Indian people.
Any other information that can be read or heard about me that is not this description above has been distorted by the writer or the speaker.
I wish to bring one more point to your attention, which seems important for you to know. I was invited to give a plenary talk at Bioneers conference last Oct. in CA on the Chiapas zapatista resistance. After asking permission to the zapatista authorities, I accepted their invitation.The organizers of Bioneers asked then for my biography. Of a full page I sent, the mention of my admission into the League of Peace is only one line and the date is stated clearly, 1985, and the date of my leaving Canada for Mexico two years later is also stated clearly. What they did is that they printed 5000 brochures of their program with the mention:
Ohki Simine Forest, Canadian Wolf Clan Mohawk ....will be speaking on the Chiapas Indigenous Resistance.
I received their brochures in Mexico three weeks after it was printed. Needless to say, I reacted with much concerns and immediately wrote them this was total mis-representation, that this was only a line in my biography, how could they not make the relation that living in Mexico since 20 years (as the founders of Bioneers know well) that I am not in Canada anymore, therefore, how can I be representing the League of Peace? I asked for immediate correction which they did on their web site but the harm was already done in their 5,000 brochures. I urged them that in all occasions they should have the final approval from their speakers before printing anything, especially with any native descent people, as these are sensitive matters as you know.
Hoping this helps clarify. In no way, did I make up false information about my time with you nor share about the ceremonies there, as I know very well it is not my place. Attached please find a photo of myself with the hope someone can recognize me.
Niawen... from my heart and above all, for your so kind patience,
Ohki Simine Forest"
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Offline educatedindian

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2006, 06:10:16 pm »
Pt 3
----
Folks,
Let me get this straight. She danced with these folks for two years and does not remember their names? But that contact was enough to give her insights into native "spirituality."
Right. I had a dream about aliens in my closet one time after I read that book about alien abductions. Does that mean I was abducted?
----
She even manages to get a plug in for her book in that letter. Commercial much?
And she says that no-one noticed her because she was quiet. Are you seriously telling me that they wouldn't have noticed a white woman dancing in their midst for two years!?
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The "Shaman" woman my sister is involved with has changed the bio on her website as a result of the inquiry made to the people in Canada she had alluded to coming from;
here is the old bio;
"Ohky Simine Forest is of Mohawk/French ancestry. At a very young age, there came a sign to her people that she was to follow the shaman's path. Her wandering led her to Europe and Asia, then back to Canada, where she was admitted into the Lone Wolf Clan at the traditional Long House of Kahnawake, part of the League Of Peace of the Iroquois Nations. From there she went to Chiapas in southern Mexico, where she met her life partner, began working within the Mayan community and formed the first Medicine Center in that part of the world."
Here is the new bio;
When Ohki was a small baby a fireball fell on her family´s house, a great sign to the medicine people who eventually taught her that she was to be initiated into the ways of shamans. In her adolescence, Ohki pursued her spiritual journey by traveling to Asia where she studied with shamans from different traditions. In 1984, she returned to the Mohawk people in Canada and was admitted for this period of her life into the Wolf Clan at the traditional Long House of Kahnawake, part of the League of Peace of the Iroquois Nations. Of Mohawk descent, Ohki was not born on the reservation, nor is she an enrolled tribal member, thus she does not represent or teach the Mohawk traditions. In 1986, following the signs of her path, she traveled to Chiapas in southern Mexico where she continues to live, and was initiated into the world of Maya shamans. She is the founder of the RED WIND COUNCILS whose goals include spiritual training in the ancient Maya Ways. She also visits the United States regularly for retreats, Spiritual Warriorship trainings and conferences.
The old page is gone on the web but my husband says I could find it cached in my computer if any one wants to see it.
I got a bunch of letters from her followers (including my sister) who all supported her 100%, said she never misrepresented herself and told me I was disrespectful and rude. Oh well.
This has been hard because it involves my sister who is very important to me. I appreciate all the thoughts you folks took time to write. I think I have to let this all go now. I offered to send these people links to good sources that talk about spiritual appropriation but they are not interested. That is all I can do.
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Scarlet Kinney

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2006, 05:25:17 am »
I have read through everything that was said about Ohky Forest on this site. What stands out for me is this: I think Forest's sincerity speaks for itself in the copy of her letter Al published. It was clear that what she had to say was honestly presented; that  her attitude was conciliatory and geared towards achieving understanding and harmony; and that  her approach was respectful. All of this stands in stark contrast to the comments of those on this site who think they have the authority to sit in judgment on her or anybody else.

It's very hard to make sense of much of what is presented on this site, as so much of it seems to be coming from a mindset made up of preconceived ideas, rigid belief systems, and emotionally-based thought patterns. Much of it seems strangely fundamentalist, somehow, like the thinking of right-wing Christians.