NAFPS Forum
General => Frauds => Topic started by: educatedindian on March 28, 2006, 06:10:36 pm
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She's written to me as well as several others. I'm hoping we can pin down who this alleged female "Mohawk shaman" is who mixed together Mayan and even "Mongolian" beliefs.
"The alleged "Mohawk elder" who trained me was not an "elder" as she was not old enough to have been given that title....
I may indeed have been victimized, and/or taken in by a fraud myself, but that's neither my perception of my relationship with my teacher nor my perspective on such things. The woman I studied with had problems, yes, and her underlying hatred of white people became an issue for us that led to a parting of our ways. But I loved her and respected her, and still do, in part because I have some empathy for what she has endured as a mixed blood. She knew what was happening to me, and guided me safely through it. I was happy to pay her for her help, just as I would have paid a therapist or doctor, etc., had they been able to help me. I regret nothing about my relationship with her, and nor do I harbor any ill will towards her for the aftermath of our parting. Furthermore, whatever our differences may have been, I would defend her were she to be subjected to an attack such as the one I have been subjected to on your site. She is a human being, as we all are, and one who carries the wounds of her heritage in her own heart. When such wounds become hurtful behaviors or words directed at others, how can I then judge her and make her wrong, knowing what she herself has suffered, and knowing that she is trying to heal her own wounding by working within the white culture?
....My teacher may or may not have been a fraud. I don't think she was/is. At any rate, I understood her teachings to be a synthesis of women's ways from her own culture, and from Mongolian and Mayan cultures as well. She may have been working with a mandala model similar to those Tibetan monks work with. Whatever the case may be, I have found what I learned from her to be very deep and healing, as well as philosophically and psychologically sophistated."
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She's written to me as well as several others. I'm hoping we can pin down who this alleged female "Mohawk shaman" is who mixed together Mayan and even "Mongolian" beliefs.
It's "Ohky Simine Forest":
http://www.awakenedwoman.com/May/dreaming_council.htm
Dreaming the Council Ways is a guidebook for the emerging shaman, the truly serious seeker, a deep and esoteric book melding the knowledge of Native American, specifically Mayan, and Mongolian shamanic traditions. Okhy Simine Forest speaks from her lifelong Mohawk identity and her many years of practice and involvement with these three traditions.
This page (http://www.innerself.com/Essays/dark_shadows.htm), I kid you not, says
Ohky makes her home in Chiapas, Mexico and visits the United States several times a year, giving retreat seminars and conferences.
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Her page leads like the lost chapters pf Mao Tse Tung's 'Little Red Book'.
It just screams communist people's revolutionary rhetoric.
Phraes like "bound to the dialectic of violence and liberty." and "No ideology can make true changes or true revolutions. Only the heart of the people can do that. "
So does this mean that all along, the New Ageer's are all 'Commies'?
At least it makes for a good laugh.
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Her page leads like the lost chapters pf Mao Tse Tung's 'Little Red Book'.
It just screams communist people's revolutionary rhetoric.
Phraes like "bound to the dialectic of violence and liberty." and "No ideology can make true changes or true revolutions. Only the heart of the people can do that. "
I can't see any true Maoist giving up one of their favourite words, 'ideology'. I read those passages as repeating the old newage cliché about rising above the dirty world of politics and becoming 'spiritual', with a few 'political' words thrown in to interest her intended audience; vaguely left-leaning liberals. The Beatles were much less long-winded about it in their song 'Revolution'.
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I have been doing some research on Ohky Simine Forest and have found her to be more of an author of books concerning all the teaching Scarlet is talking about, also Red Lodge appears to be a on line book store.
Ohky states herself" surley I can try and understand the concepts of the ancient first inhabitants", and "I am more a historian than a practioner." taken from Dreaming the Council Ways: True Native Teachings from the Red Lodge.
Ohky was also a lecturer at Women's Well Spirituality Program. http://sunnefyre.tripod.com/ww.htm.
Ohky Gives a warning in her book that says" the author warns us against dabbling in various Spiritual traditions without first coming to an awareness that these traditions are based on ancient teachings that embrace a deep and lifelong commitment to Spiritual verities that have not changed over mellennia." Interesting comment having said she is more a historian than a practioner. I take that to mean don't dabble in things you have no right to do, ALL things come full circle, don't they???
Than added is "shamanic knowledge and practices which encompasses most of the book.
Seems contradictory to me. So did Scarlet read some books, listen to a few lectures and than begin her cultic teachings????
I will send a few emails and see what I get.
Wado
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Did not realize they give degrees in this stuff, for PHD Grads and Doctoral Candiates. Scarlet is listed on the Pacifica Graduate Institute Website. http://www.mythinglinks.org/jung~ect.html World Wild Links to Myths, Fairy Tales, Folklore, Sacred Arts and Sacred Traditions. Lots of Jung and Freud. frederica
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wrong address http://wwwmythinglinks.org/jungian~etc.html
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http://www.mythinglinks.org/jungian~etc.html
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Best I can tell, Forest doesn't have a thing to do with any actual Mohawk beliefs or Mohawk people. She claims to be from Quebec with one French parent and one Mohawk, but never mentions a reserve. Some sites say vaguely she's of Mohawk descent.
As far as I know, talking about a "Red Lodge" is not part of any Six Nations beliefs. They'd talk about the Longhouse.
Forest is an English name. Is Simine French? Is Ohky a Mohawk name? Sometimes spelled Ohki.
Seems like Kinney's breaking what her teacher taught her: "In addition, some of these practitioners have established what they call 'shamanic institutions' that offer instruction in these supposed 'techniques.' I ask myself, how can people institutionalize shamanic ways?. "
And for someone claiming to be a Mayan shaman, she makes some obvious mistakes:
"From Mayan prophesy, she claims that the year 2013 is the beginning of the new cycle, which "heralds the end of pyramidal societies and the establishment of egalitarian societies, a great return to the ancient native Council Ways...She calls this the return of the plumed serpent, Quetzacoatl."
Q was the Aztec name. Mayans called him Kulkulcan. Also, she never says which Mayan people. The Mayans are over two dozen groups and hundreds of communities.
Medicine wheels aren't part of either Mohawk or Mayan beliefs either. She seems to be pulling all of this out of Nuage beliefs, along with "power animals", "soul retrieval", "rainbow warriors" and lucid dreaming.
And out of over 160 sites she's on, almost every single one was a Nuage bookstore or selling her seminars.
She contradicts herself repeatedly. Her homepage:
http://www.redwindcouncils.org/HTML/vision.htm
"She has practiced & taught the ancient ways of shamans from the Maya land, Mongolia and Canada for over 25 years. Ohki brings a unified practice of these traditional ways at the Red Wind centers of New Mexico, Boston and Chiapas, Mexico.
OHKI'S LIFE WALK
When Ohki was a small baby a fireball fell on her family´s house, a great sign to the medicine people who eventually taught her that she was to be initiated into the ways of shamans. In her adolescence, Ohki pursued her spiritual journey by traveling to Asia where she studied with shamans from different traditions. In 1984, she returned to the Mohawk people in Canada and was admitted for this period of her life into the Wolf Clan at the traditional Long House of Kahnawake, part of the League of Peace of the Iroquois Nations. Of Mohawk descent, Ohki was not born on the reservation, nor is she an enrolled tribal member, thus she does not represent or teach the Mohawk traditions. In 1986, following the signs of her path, she traveled to Chiapas in southern Mexico where she continues to live, and was initiated into the world of Maya shamans. She is the founder of the RED WIND COUNCILS whose goals include spiritual training in the ancient Maya Ways. She also visits the United States regularly for retreats, Spiritual Warriorship trainings and conferences."
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Pacifica-
"Our degree programs, whether in the fields of psychology or mythological studies, are framed in the traditions of depth psychology....depth psychology originates in the work of Sigmund Freud and Carl G. Jung, who called attention to the importance of what lies "below the surface"of conscious awareness. This dimension of psychic reality is revealed...in the symptoms of individuals and communities.
Pacifica's monthly, three-day learning sessions take into account the professional commitments and psychological needs of the adult learner. An educational environment is created where mature students can "work" the material which is, in turn, "working them."
In 1997, Pacifica was awarded accreditation by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges, and that accreditation was reaffirmed in 2001....
Stephen Aizenstat, Ph.D.
President"
In other words, they've been around for about eight years, and you can attend a three day session once a month to get this "graduate degree". Notice it's an institute, not a university. Certainly very different from any grad school I ever heard of.
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This woman was talked about on Indianz.com
Seems like someone did some investigating because their sister was involved with her .
http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16526&whichpage=2
This next , below starts about 3/4 of the way down the page
http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16526&whichpage=3
http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16526&whichpage=4
http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16526&whichpage=5
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Thanks. I'm reposting the parts of their thread dealing with Forest and sending this off to Kinney. Let's see if she can handle the truth about her beloved teacher.
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I have a question. My sister has been associated for a while now with a woman who professes to be a medicine woman. This lady who claims to be Mohawk, Okhy Simine Forest wrote a book called Dreaming the Council Ways here is a quote from an interview with her she claims..
"Dreaming the Council Ways is a guidebook for the emerging shaman, the truly serious seeker, a deep and esoteric book melding the knowledge of Native American, specifically Mayan, and Mongolian shamanic traditions. Okhy Simine Forest speaks from her lifelong Mohawk identity and her many years of practice and involvement with these three traditions. "In my apprenticeship in these three physically distant cultures, I encountered many stunning reappearing spiritual teachings -- similarities in their conception of the cosmos that translated into their arts of ancient healing and spirituality."
The lady comes to my sisters home twice a year to do ceremonies (particullarly sweat lodge ceremonies) and courses that she charges other women to attend. From what I can gather she is teaching medicine ways and even gives "names" to some of her students. After I voiced doubt and concern that it may not be right to treat sacred or spritual ways like this Ms. Forest told my sister that people like me would try to saboutage what they do so I am not told much anymore. She also has a "Non profit" organization called Cima that she collects donations for out of Chiapas Mexico. Has anyone ever heard about her? I am pretty dubious about the whole thing.
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Dang, now the New Age Shaman Wannabe/aspiring doctor or healer can buy a book and work through guidelines in their craft? Wow.
It's like a sick joke. And the worst part of this is that these yokels really believe that crap. Even if certain practices did work for a doctor or healer, do these freaks really think they can say some magic words, fast, dance, etc and this "magic" will work at their beck and command?
How incredibly arrogant. It's not really a shock to me but still the irony and lack of respect for spirituality and thieving never seems to wear off. I remember how our mother would talk to us when we were growing up about respecting medicine and not touching "this" or saying "that," those types of things.
Now it seems that New Agers will just pick up anything, or buy sacred objects on eBay just because they can, or because they want to. I was talking to Lori about this just a while ago.
It's like that thread the other day about a college erecting a sweat lodge on campus grounds (for an anthro class?) and everybody clamoring to get in and have the "experience" and when Native students objected and presented their views why they were shouted down and called racists. In the end, the white students and non-Natives got their way. This is kinda the same thing.
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This New-Age Native stuff stinks of total disrespect. I wonder what the public would say if people started charging to teach classes on turning bread into flesh and wine into blood. Or how about an archaeology class doing mock bah mitzvahs.
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I went back and read your original post and the short quote from this crazy woman. She is a new age culture thief. Want some specific information for your sister?
Kahnawá:ke is a rez. outside of Montreal. See where she says she was ‘admitted’ to a clan? Sheeeeeeeet. You is what your momma is, you ain’t ‘admitted’. There is Wolf Clan, but there ain’t no “Lone Wolf??? Clan. WTF?
Then you might want to slap your sister back to reality. Spiritually lost people are a sad thing. Your sister’s situation sounds an awful lot like someone being inducted into a cult. It’s standard operating procedure to force your inductees to distance themselves from their family and anyone else who might give them a reality check. The shyt that people fall for never ceases to amaze me.
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Lone Wolf???? LOL...
That's some shyt ain't it?
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I don't find fautl with your sister. Seems she is searching for something she considers missing from her own life. Problem is you have someone who is doing her wrong. Taking advantage of her, by ripping her off finacially and spiritually.
First thing there is never suppose to be a exchange of money for ceramonies. People that do take from people like that are ...well lets say they are gonna have to face somethings in their own life. Some call it Karma I guess. But it will come back at them. Always does...seen it happen way too many times.
Sweats have been around for a long time, by many peoples. But still not something to go farting around with. If they using it like a suana which too has been around a long time....well I still wouldn't want to be doing a ceramonial thing in a suana. Ceramony is not something to go messing around with at all.
Well she can give names all you want, but just not ndn names. Well take that back she can but they don't matter a hill of beans.
This woman is a scam artist...maybe your sister won't listen to you. Maybe ask her to ask here. Maybe she has to learn a few things on her own.
Course pickin on Mongolians is a wee bit much.
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Pt 2
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This is the letter she sent regarding the question about her link to the Kahnawake. This lady performs sweat ceremonies cleansing ceremonies etc. along with giving pricey lessons to her followers on her own brand of spirituality. She does live in a community in Chiapas and is supposedly working with the spiritual community there. She says she never represented herself as Mohawk. It sure seemes to imply that on her site though. She also never mentions who her Mongolian teachers were or where in Asia these Mongolian Shamans found her. Anyway. Here is the letter.
"Kwe, Kwe,
I am writing you and your most respected community to clarify my situation on who I am. I was recently approached by two sisters who called you to investigate me and were told by you that you did not know me. I will try to be as brief as possible.
I was admitted by the Clan Chiefs at the Long House in Kahnawake, southern Montreal in 1985. I participated in the various ceremonies of the Long House and the False Face society for two full years, and this, each time I was invited by your people. I was working in Montreal and I traveled to the reservation two or three times a month sometimes. I am of Mohawk descent. My father and mother are both half French Canadian and Mohawk as their genealogies state.
I was raised in Montreal and sent in French Canadian schools. My grandmother was the daughter of a Chief at Kanasetake, Oka and married a white man. She left, therefore losing all entitlement to her land in the Mohawk community. Her name was Marie Rose Simine. My parents were not part of the Long House or the community.
Prior to my approaching the people at Kahnawake in 1985, I had been to Europe trying to find my way in the white world. But my path took another course when Mongolian shamans showed up and I went to Asia where I was initiated into their ways. Upon my return to Montreal in 1985, every night I dreamt I was surrounded by a Council of Chiefs drumming insistently loud in my ears and I would wake up all sweating. My roots were calling me back and I had to do something about it. I was invited in several occasions by the Montagnais people, northern Quebec and inititated in their Medicine Wheel. But still the dreams were insistent. A Huron friend told me then I had to contact the Mohawk people, not just natives in general, and the dreams would stopped.
So it is with these "credentials" that I approached a woman living in Kahnawake through this Huron man. If my memory is correct her name was Anne or RoseAnne. She brought my request to the Clan Chiefs and she informed me I could join the Long House. I arrived there and I explained my situation to the Chiefs. I remember a Clan Mother said as a joke: "Yes, let's accept her, she looks more Mohawk than the whole tribe together."
I was introduced to Mr. Joe of the Turtle clan and to Mr. Earnie (is it how you spell?) of the Wolf clan as well as the Wolf clan mother. My memory is failing on her name (may be Susan?). I was told to sit on one of the benches with the Wolf clan women. I danced with the women for two years. And I remember once several women came up to me telling they really liked me because I am so focused on the dancing and give them the inspiration to stand up and dance. People are so kind, it felt to me. I also assisted to a few ceremonies where several families were leaving their Christian religion and returning to the old ways at the Long House. I remember some of the speeches Mr. Joe of the Turtle clan gave (although mostly in Mohawk) and how moving it was. My time with your people was truly a healing one. And I can only be forever grateful. I discovered a dignified & proud people who has suffered and endured, as well as the ancestors, to keep the ways alive through the Termination times.
However, it is more than possible that no one remembers me. I was quiet, most often silent, in the back top benches, and the people very discreet as is all native people everywhere. No one would talk to me a lot, and not often people would ask my name. But the fact remains that I was with you for that period. I ate bear meat with all of you after some ceremonies, meat that the men had hunted in other Mohawk territories in Quebec. I drank in several occasions with all of you the sacred strawberry corn drink the women prepared with such heart. I also remember when the Bear Chief shared with me how great it is to see me so committed and showing up at each event and festival. "That it is so important we reclaim our roots, he said, even as metis people like yourself". How kind it was of him to even bother and come up to tell me this, I was nobody among you all. I had even started learning Mohawk but my path took me away two years later.
My time with you has been a tremendous honor and privilege. I will always remember what Mr. Earnie, head chief of the Wolf clan, told me when we were driving together in his car as we were passing in front of his hot-dog stand: "Having been admitted in the League of Peace, you know, it is forever, even once you are gone elsewhere, you are still part of us." May be he was sensing my time with you all would be brief and be called away.
In the Mongolia training I received, the last time I saw the main shaman, he told me two things: one is that I am a born teacher and he gave me a series of transmissions of their knowleldge. He also told me that after him, my path was to receive deeper training from other shamans. So when I was back in Canada at the time and was admitted by your council, I approached the False Face shaman. He replied to me they only accept men in their society. Here, I was at a crossroads and did not know what to do. Spirits sent me other clear dreams and strong signs and sent me to Mexico.I arrived end of 1986 and within a month I met Maya shamans ---hard to find normally-- and was initiated directly in their ways. Then after a few years, they sent me to teach.
Since then, I have followed to the best of my abilities the design that Spirits and my teachers had for me. In no way, I have said what is not. This is too a serious matter to play with. For 20 years, I have constantly and consistently presented myself in my work in the same way always: (all of this is stated in the introduction of my only book, find info at www.redwindcouncils.org)
-That I am of Mohawk roots or descent, that I do not have a registered number, nor do I come from a reservation
-that I have been admittted at the Long House in 1985, and that I am NOT representing in any ways the Iroquois League of Peace as I am not entitled
-that I left for Mexico two years later and that I live in Chiapas, Mexico since 20 years
-that my work strives to help the Maya indigenous in resistance among whom I live
-that I teach a synthesis of Medicine wheel ways between the Mongolian, Maya and native ways, as there is a common, ancient root, knowledge I was fully initiated to impart by my teachers and entitled by them to share with non- Indian people.
Any other information that can be read or heard about me that is not this description above has been distorted by the writer or the speaker.
I wish to bring one more point to your attention, which seems important for you to know. I was invited to give a plenary talk at Bioneers conference last Oct. in CA on the Chiapas zapatista resistance. After asking permission to the zapatista authorities, I accepted their invitation.The organizers of Bioneers asked then for my biography. Of a full page I sent, the mention of my admission into the League of Peace is only one line and the date is stated clearly, 1985, and the date of my leaving Canada for Mexico two years later is also stated clearly. What they did is that they printed 5000 brochures of their program with the mention:
Ohki Simine Forest, Canadian Wolf Clan Mohawk ....will be speaking on the Chiapas Indigenous Resistance.
I received their brochures in Mexico three weeks after it was printed. Needless to say, I reacted with much concerns and immediately wrote them this was total mis-representation, that this was only a line in my biography, how could they not make the relation that living in Mexico since 20 years (as the founders of Bioneers know well) that I am not in Canada anymore, therefore, how can I be representing the League of Peace? I asked for immediate correction which they did on their web site but the harm was already done in their 5,000 brochures. I urged them that in all occasions they should have the final approval from their speakers before printing anything, especially with any native descent people, as these are sensitive matters as you know.
Hoping this helps clarify. In no way, did I make up false information about my time with you nor share about the ceremonies there, as I know very well it is not my place. Attached please find a photo of myself with the hope someone can recognize me.
Niawen... from my heart and above all, for your so kind patience,
Ohki Simine Forest"
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Pt 3
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Folks,
Let me get this straight. She danced with these folks for two years and does not remember their names? But that contact was enough to give her insights into native "spirituality."
Right. I had a dream about aliens in my closet one time after I read that book about alien abductions. Does that mean I was abducted?
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She even manages to get a plug in for her book in that letter. Commercial much?
And she says that no-one noticed her because she was quiet. Are you seriously telling me that they wouldn't have noticed a white woman dancing in their midst for two years!?
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The "Shaman" woman my sister is involved with has changed the bio on her website as a result of the inquiry made to the people in Canada she had alluded to coming from;
here is the old bio;
"Ohky Simine Forest is of Mohawk/French ancestry. At a very young age, there came a sign to her people that she was to follow the shaman's path. Her wandering led her to Europe and Asia, then back to Canada, where she was admitted into the Lone Wolf Clan at the traditional Long House of Kahnawake, part of the League Of Peace of the Iroquois Nations. From there she went to Chiapas in southern Mexico, where she met her life partner, began working within the Mayan community and formed the first Medicine Center in that part of the world."
Here is the new bio;
When Ohki was a small baby a fireball fell on her family´s house, a great sign to the medicine people who eventually taught her that she was to be initiated into the ways of shamans. In her adolescence, Ohki pursued her spiritual journey by traveling to Asia where she studied with shamans from different traditions. In 1984, she returned to the Mohawk people in Canada and was admitted for this period of her life into the Wolf Clan at the traditional Long House of Kahnawake, part of the League of Peace of the Iroquois Nations. Of Mohawk descent, Ohki was not born on the reservation, nor is she an enrolled tribal member, thus she does not represent or teach the Mohawk traditions. In 1986, following the signs of her path, she traveled to Chiapas in southern Mexico where she continues to live, and was initiated into the world of Maya shamans. She is the founder of the RED WIND COUNCILS whose goals include spiritual training in the ancient Maya Ways. She also visits the United States regularly for retreats, Spiritual Warriorship trainings and conferences.
The old page is gone on the web but my husband says I could find it cached in my computer if any one wants to see it.
I got a bunch of letters from her followers (including my sister) who all supported her 100%, said she never misrepresented herself and told me I was disrespectful and rude. Oh well.
This has been hard because it involves my sister who is very important to me. I appreciate all the thoughts you folks took time to write. I think I have to let this all go now. I offered to send these people links to good sources that talk about spiritual appropriation but they are not interested. That is all I can do.
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I have read through everything that was said about Ohky Forest on this site. What stands out for me is this: I think Forest's sincerity speaks for itself in the copy of her letter Al published. It was clear that what she had to say was honestly presented; that her attitude was conciliatory and geared towards achieving understanding and harmony; and that her approach was respectful. All of this stands in stark contrast to the comments of those on this site who think they have the authority to sit in judgment on her or anybody else.
It's very hard to make sense of much of what is presented on this site, as so much of it seems to be coming from a mindset made up of preconceived ideas, rigid belief systems, and emotionally-based thought patterns. Much of it seems strangely fundamentalist, somehow, like the thinking of right-wing Christians.
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What I find interesting is that whenever Native people say someone or something is full of bs (and, sorry - but you'd think we'd know what we're talking about on somethings) - we're being "judgemental."
Why is that do you suppose?
Actually Ms. Kinney the idea that being "judgemental" is reserved for a few or even one, is quite a Christian ideal. Native socities aren't really the "anything goes" freewheeling hippy communes you seem to think they are, and they never were. Sure, everyone had personal freedom - within the bounds of the community norms. The people we're talking about, yourself included, aren't acting within community norms for those peoples they claim taught them. And yeah - that's going to cause you catch flak. If you don't like it, it's quite simple - don't claim to have anything to do with Native people. If your teacher was Ms. Okhy - just because you got Native ancestry does not make you a Native healer. And dancing with people for two years (whose names you later can't even remember) also doesn't make you a Native healer. That's not judgemental - that's common sense.
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In response to Walking Soft's comment:
"So did Scarlet read some books, listen to a few lectures and than begin her cultic teachings?"
I will say this only once, and will not discuss it further. Whether you choose to believe it or not, it happened.
No, I did not "read some books, listen to a few lectures and then begin my 'cultic' teachings."
Here's what actually happened to me:
In 1988 I moved into a new home/studio/art gallery in the little village I live in. A serviceman who was installing a propane furnace left a pipe uncapped. When another serviceman came to light the stove pilot, and turned on the gas, it poured into the space from the uncapped pipe, and the whole place filled with it. Neither of us could smell it because all the piping was new and absorbed the odorant used in the propane to alert people to leaks. He then lit a match.
The concussive force of the explosion that resulted was so violent it blew skylights 40 feet out into the back yard. I was thrown about the room, and horribly burned in the fire that followed the explosion. I had an out-of-body experience during this event. I knew I was dying, and somehow felt very serene about it. I moved towards a light at the end of a cavernous, tunnel-like space.
I was unable to complete my journey, however, because my way was blocked by several large bear spirits, grizzlies. One of them, who later identified himself to me as Standing Bear, asked me to return to "the body", as there was a work his clan, the Bear Spirit Clan, wanted me to do for them. I agreed, and he transmitted to me an enormous amount of what I could only perceive at the time as densely compressed images. He then asked me to look down at the body. As I did so, I felt an enormous compassion for its suffering, and that compassion somehow propelled me back into it.
I got myself out of the fire. The grizzly spirits stayed with me, and are still with me. They facilitiated my physical healing, and began teaching me. I could see them, hear them, smell them.
I was raised Catholic, and had no prior knowledge of Native American ways or of shamanism. I went to a therapist who looked at the paintings I was making of the constant visions the bear spirits were inducing, and was told that they looked shamanic. My response was, "What's that?"
Then I did read a few books. I did research on the subject, and found many examples of shamanic initiation in the literature that mirrored what had happened to me.
I didn't know what to do, because there wasn't anybody in my culture who knew anything about what I was going through.
At around that time, I began to hear a drumbeat that contained an invitation to travel to the Southwest. After two months, I did so, and within a few days, met my teacher.
She guided me through what had up until then been a terrifying experience of spontaneous ecstatic visions and dreams. She taught me how to handle the energies that had come to me, and how to communicate with the five bear spirits who were constantly with me. I will always honor her for being willing to help me. Yes, she was Native American, and she helped me when nobody in my own culture could. For this reason, I have always had a great respect for Native American people, and have hoped to develop some relationships within that culture.
Over the years, the compressed images transmitted to me by Standing Bear have gradually unfolded, and I have gradually integrated their meanings. The work I'm doing now is a way of honoring the committment I made to Standing Bear, when he asked me to share my experience "with all who have the heart to hear."
It seems very few people on this site have the heart to hear, as everything I say is either misinterpreted or twisted to mean something other than what I'm communicating, and thrown back at me in attempts at character assassination.
To those who can hear what I'm saying, I would very much like to reach some understanding with you. I am not your enemy. Nor am I creating a cult.
I am a white woman who experienced a genuine shamanic, not Native American, intiation. I don't know, and may never know, why this happened to me. But I did experience it, and I will honor both my experience and the woman who helped me get through it, whatever others may think of her or of me, and in spite of any difficulties we may have had.
I am working with the teachings I received from Standing Bear and from my physical world teacher, combined with my graduate studies in mythology and depth psychology, to create a psychology of wholeness that honors the feminine, and to contribute to raising earth consciousness in my own culture.
If you can't or won't understand me or my work, there's nothing I can do about that. But I'm going to continue doing it.
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I will say this only once, and will not discuss it further.
I imagine many of us will be relieved to hear that. I was tempted to delete that post but then decided it should stay as a monument to your folly. I can't imagine any legitimate spiritual teacher, Indian or not, talking about such a profoundly life-changing experience on a message board. Egotism is the only word for it.
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What stands out for me is this: I think Forest's sincerity speaks for itself in the copy of her letter Al published. It was clear that what she had to say was honestly presented; that her attitude was conciliatory and geared towards achieving understanding and harmony; and that her approach was respectful.
That letter was intented for public consumption. Forest evidently wished to appear conciliatory, respectful, etc to her intended audience which was not Indian people, but non-Indians desperate for "Indian spirituality". She clearly doesn't respect Indians enought to stop pretending to be one. Take a look at the responses to it on indianz.com: everyone there saw through it immediately.
All of this stands in stark contrast to the comments of those on this site who think they have the authority to sit in judgment on her or anybody else.
Oh, enough talk about judgment. You're not the first newager who's thrown a towering hissy-fit on learning what we think of you and I'm sure you won't be the last.
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"towering hissy-fit"
Barnaby.... that's a scream!
Ms. Kinney's tale reminds me of the one RLS has published (http://www.shaketheanthill.net/kalaitaka.html#6) except Kinney is more concise and readable, as well as more plausible. Disregarding the arrogance she displays elsewhere in her posts, she is also more honest than RLS. For instance, he never mentions in his account the fact that he was under the influence of hallucinogenic mushrooms at the time of his "vision".
Maybe we ought to create a sort of informal grading system for "fraudism", where different scores are applied on various traits such as arrogance, dishonesty, etc.
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I agree with the rating system.
As an ordinary white person, I have been reading this exchange. My family is from Maine, although we never encountered this person. Our neighbors, who are Indians, were people who we met at the post office, bought gas from Clifton's, had gardens as we did.... However, none of us would say that they taught us 'Indian ways' or such stuff. It is absurd to say the least.
The Indians in the part of Maine that my family lives are Abenaki. So it seems very strange to me that this woman would not have any connection with them. It isn't like they are hiding some place.
Her shattering experience that she writes about is not that uncommon. A lot of people have shattering experiences. In Wash. D.C., where I live now, we had 9/11 when the plane crashed into the Pentagon. Several people in my neighborhood worked at the Pentagon when the planes hit. None of them had shaman guides come to them nor did they change their religion from Christianity. They changed jobs or moved out or went back to work. So, I think that shattering experiences are whatever you make of them.
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author=Scarlet Kinney
the compressed images transmitted to me by Standing Bear have gradually unfolded, and I have gradually integrated their meanings. The work I'm doing now is a way of honoring the committment I made to Standing Bear, when he asked me to share my experience "with all who have the heart to hear."
Perhaps this is the crux of the problem. Your interpretation has been skewed. In life changing, challanging or threatening situations (ie. health concerns) it is always advisable to get a second or third opinion.
Maybe your first 'opinion' was not from the best source, There are inumarable people who have experienced near-death. I bet if it were googled right, there would be forums loaded with good input. Even 'experts'.
"Sharing" your story sounds a bit different to me than "make up stuff to interpret it and then teach a bunch of 'bs'. But that is totally my opinion.
pattyz
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Yeah, Ms. Kinney, yeah right.
I'll tell you the same thing I told Nuagers in Europe who told me about their alleged "profound experience" that convinced them they were NDNs in a past life or whatever.
I had dreams when I was a kid about Robin Hood, but you don't see me running around in green tights, do you?
Sorry, but vivid experiences don't count for much. People have vivid experiences when the dentist gives them novocaine, while high on various illegal stuff, etc.
And does anyone remember a Star Trek episode (new one, not the original) where an injured alien thought Capt Pickard was God? He came back and just had to tell everyone that the real name for God was "THE PICKARD!"
The point is, like others told you, it's best to get other opinions about alleged "visions". Anyone Native having these opinions wouldn't sound off on a public board. They'd talk to their elders and think deeply about it for a long time. Then they'd do their best to carry out some kind of good with that vision.
But they would not tell the whole world "Look at me! I'm so spirchul cuz I had a near death experience! Come pay me big bucks! I can heal you! Even though I don't know much...."
The biggest tipoff is that you choose the name Standing Bear for your alleged spirit that you allegedly met. But none of what he told you sounds a thing like the famous Standing Bear. It's like saying you met Napoleon and he told you a secret recipe for French Fries.
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ROF!!!! Sorry that is so funny!!!!!!!!!!
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Much of it seems strangely fundamentalist, somehow, like the thinking of right-wing Christians
You don't talk like this to Native Americans. That comment is like saying to an Oorthodox Jew: much of what you say seems like the thinking of right-wing Nazis. Christians are occupiers of Native's land. Their genocide is just as unforgivable as the Holocaust. ?
Let me clarify that I don't consider Native Americans as "victims". My Norse forefathers was also conquered by Christians. They are just some mean fighters because of technology, cowardly weapons and a taste for genocide. In the 1950's the Norwegian Church tried to exterminate the Romani people in Norway by lobotomy, sterilization, stealing their children, shooting their horses and destroying their language. This went on until the late 1970's. It was not until 1998 that the government asked for forgiveness. And they did something similiar to the Sami people. ? ?
Fundamentalism? Everyone has the right to believe in syncretism, but their belief system becomes militant if they don't allow others to keep their faith pure if they want to. Traditionalists have the right to protest if New Agers or others incorporate sacred symbols, objects and practices from other religions in their syncretic worldview. That is syncretic parasitism.
There is one problem with telling the whole world about your most sacred and intimate experiences: it looks suspiciously like spiritual pornography. I am not saying that your story is that, but I don't even want to read it, because I am a stranger and it is none of my business to know your innermost feelings. I would remove it, if I was you, but I am not.
This web page would not have existed if non-Natives did not steal or impose as something they are not. The conflict will be over once New Agers leave Native religions alone. It is they who are the intruders, and they should therefore back off. It is as simple as that. ?
? ? ? ?
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Scarlet, I haven't posted in a while just reading and listening. It seem to me you are playing the victim role and martyr. Yes you have had a terribel experience however your costant repeating of this tells me you have much healing in yourself that needs to take place. Often time broken souls search for something to fill it, drugs, alcohol,sex,religion ect. The problem arises when it is done to the extreme without regard for self or damage to others. To even speak to people on this path is useless because of the denial.
Have you ever given it any thought that during this time of vulnerability you may have been taken advantage of, after all you have called your teacher a fraud and we have more than presented facts to that effect. You reached out and tried to fill that painful area with false teachings and began to help others with these false teachings, after all it does distract our own pain if only we can grasp on to "something."Even more so if we can focus on others.
Just my perception of all I read. Wado. :)