General > Research Needed
Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
TheRebel:
--- Quote from: frederica on December 05, 2007, 01:23:15 am ---Floyd Mountour is a Six Nations Elder.
--- End quote ---
I 'm sure Floyd Mountour got duped into believing Tallige was a legit group , after all name me one legit group in Ohio...
Whats even more bizarre is a gentlemen by the name of Jean Leclavier of some supposed OMAA woodland Metis Society in Canada? Also took part in
the selling of the Mohawk Cards aka Red cards aka Mohawk Metis cards In Canada.
I have found out that OMAA website is no longer up and runing.
More to come as I examine info. and hack through the drama and crying I'm receiving in my email account.
12-4-07/10:7AM
Here's a statement from Pat Holley on the Mohawk Metis Cards
--- Quote ---To whom it may concern:
My name is Patrick Holley , I have been accused of selling Metis cards .
I would like to take this time to tell my side of the story which was printed in Turtle Island News March 19, 2003 issue , I negotiated the issuing of 28 Metis cards from Jean Lecavlier of the Southern Metis Association which I believed to be valid. However, now there validity is in question at this point the Georgia Tribe of Eastern Cherokee is out 1400.00 for these cards.
I Pat Holley have initiated a small claims court proceeding for the refund of this money.
I will post the court documents early next week to verify the proceedings on this matter.
Also enclosed is Jean Lecavlier Metis website it is enclosed as a attachment
To the Georgia Tribe of Eastern Cherokee Chief William Taylor
I apologize for all negative responses from this matter and will pursue this matter with due diligence to see justice is served in this matter.
Pat Holley
--- End quote ---
Ric_Richardson:
Tansi;
The OMAA (which I believe stands for Ontario Metis Aboriginal Association), sprung up when Metis hunting rights were affirmed, by various courts, including the Supreme Court of Canada. Much of what I have heard about them, is that the OMAA did not require geneological evidence of their members being Metis The only apparent evidence needed, for membership, was the ability to pay for registration. Since the Powley case affirmed Ontario Metis people's Aboriginal Rights, there are many people who wanted Metis "status" in order to hunt, mainly.
The OMAA was never affiliated with the Metis National Council, who exercise much more stringent requirements for determining our membership.
Ric
TheRebel:
Thank you Ric_Richardson for your input on the OMAA.
TheRebel:
This is a series of emails in my files , this deals with Tallige , Collin,Crandel etc etc.. this goes about who is speaking for all natives in ohio and also deals with the reburial Tallige did in the late 80's
******************************************************************
Pat's name was not on this and I am not telling her about this!!!!!!
I did not send this to you. Jean is coming up here Thursday to go shopping. I will keep in touch.
----- Original Message -----
To: "Charla Tootle" <ctoo1@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:25 AM
Subject: Fw: Cherokee??]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Crandell" <naao@avolve.net>
"oliver collins" <oliver.collins@verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:49 PM
Subject: [Fwd: Cherokee??]
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Cherokee??
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:44:30 -0400
From: Barbara Crandell <naao@avolve.net>
To: rallen@cherokee.org
The Cherokee Nation
File name: Crandells_answer_Original_Message.doc | File type: application/msword Save to Yahoo! Briefcase - Download File - Need Help?
----- Original Message -----
From: NORBERT JOHNSON
To: ebbieboggs@msn.com; naao@avolve.net; Benhase71@msn.com; Benem8@aol.com; bmusick@greenup.k12.ky.us; bschweppe@fuse.net; bpalmer@uky.edu; BADGERWOMAN@aol.com; tmyers@ag.state.oh.us; naao@ascenture.net; csmith@cherokee.org; ctoo1@earthlink.net; cherokeelink@cherokee.org; daun@awardvacations.com; oliver.collins@verizon.net; ptvwsl@yahoo.com; Grandmabear7@webtv.net; treiser@sciotocounty.net; sriff@sciotocounty.net; lucasd@ohio.edu; cremeans@marshall.edu; debrbaker@hotmail.com; TayGoinRes@aol.com; lawyergg@zoomnet.net; mcnut724@cs.com; okema4@sbcglobal.net; sysop@nvi.net; Governor.Taft@das.state.oh.us; hwmullins@zoomnet.net; jhamlin@fuse.net; walkingstick1927@yahoo.com;
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:03 AM
Subject: RE: TIME TO REFLECT AND RECONCILE YOUR DIFFERENCES
Subject: RE: crandells answer
J'wan
Enough time and energy has been wasted based upon rumors and enuendo. It is now time for each tribal community to first solidify its sovereignty by vote of reaffirmation of tribal status. It appears that while many persons of claimed Cherokee blood do not share a common Cherokee heritage, they therefore FRAGMENT based upon ideology and political rhetoric. This does happen when a community is shattered, displaced and made to be refugees; and they then rely upon [new] leaders by effect, to develop disfunctional units of community, shattered by the trauma of a new and somewhat perverse socio-political identity.
The time has come to reaffirm tribal ties. Time to reaffirm the local governing authority of the tribal community. Time to EMPOWER the tribal governing authority as a Sovereign acting on behalf of the CITIZENS of the tribal community. Time to shed the perverse status of being a "member" of a tribal community by becomming a CITIZEN of that community. Time to understand that the YMCA and Corporations have MEMBERS! Tribes, Bands, and tribal communities have CITIZENS. (have you ever heard of an "American Member," or a Member of the United States or even a Member of Ohio?)
The time has come for each claimed native descendant to grant written powers and limits of representation by their chosen representatives. Such should be both individual grants as well as a vote of confidence for their government (constitution). It is time to protect the children from foreign domination through the creation of an intertribal system of laws on child welfare.
Ohio has a number of tribal communities. These communities need to respect that there are political as well as cultural differences. Respect and accept these differences and capitolize on them to enrich, not to destroy who you are! There can be no valid commission created that does not represent each tribal community! It is not for one tribal community to determine the spokes(wo)man of a foreign jurisdiction. A spokesperson is
just that, one to SPEAK for his/her tribal community... not other communities.
While you remain in opposition you gather no service to your people. Differences exist in all societies. It is how they deal with the differences that creates a great society... and also dysfunction as a society.
When I was in my youth, I invisioned a time when tribal communities united as communities, retaining their own pecular sociio-political idealogies and sovereignty. They united under the banner of peace and friendship for the development of services and benefits for the entire tribal complex. Tribe hopping ceased to exist as no one tribe refused to extend inter-tribal services to a citizen of an affiliated tribe. That was when I was young. I am now almost old and it appears my vision was sponsored by "coyote."
In the 1980's it cost almost $800,000 for a tribal community to be denied acknowledgement. All their resources expended, the tribal community was left destitute and many fell away or obsorbed into a greater complex of another petitioning tribe. During their petitioning period, they broke apart because of trying to put the best face forward and with the best evidence available. Many hid their total numbers in order to appear less threatening on the budget. Had they resorted to tribal reconstruction, reorganization, and affiliation with other tribal communities in a similar situation, they could have created their own benefits and services riviling that of the USBIA. They could have acquired a land base for their communities, trained their own citizens in their own colleges, utilized the resources of their landbase to create inter-tribal commerce, and to provide for homes for their population.
There are places where one can purchase land for less than $200 per acre. There are homes that can be built at less than $15 per square ft. There are schools that can be created by elder volunteers that can educate the youth. There is health care that can be provide by tribal medicine people and other volunteer service providers. Ask yourself today as a leader or potential leader, "does my community have such things, and if not why?" The answer is most probably that more effort is expended on wants rather than working on having. The most cost effective way to create services and benefits is through a coalition of tribal communities sharing their resources, nor hoarding them.
How many tribal communities have a land base sufficient to accomodate all their citizens? How many even have a land base and how is it utilized? How many have an effective educational system unrelated to the local Public institutions in the state of Ohio? How many have a health care system servicing their tribesmen? How many or how few...or if not at all!
It is time for reflection and reconciliation. Consider that all tribal communities restore their faith and trust in their leaders. Each one electing or appointing an official spokesperson and creating a "true" Tribal Commission of Native Affairs to deal with government to government relations and inter-tribal services and benefits. Let no person speak for another tribal community not their own. And respect the differences of even a fractured (fragmented) tribal community as in retrospect, they are all going for the same goal and that is respect and acknowledgement of the State and Federal as well as other tribes as having full rights of
representing their populations as Sovereign governments.
If you desire a concept plan for tribal community development in the state of Ohio that can also benefit local non-Tribal communities, I will provide such provided that EACH AND EVERY tribal community is represented. I would also like to see that the State of Ohio government becomes supportive of the efforts, both politically and economically as the effects would be beneficial to both communities.
I have spoken
Oneh!
Norbert
Dear Elmer and Strong Bow,
How about we set a couple of dates then work out the list and symantics? Our time is growing short.
Love,
Tula
ps If you get me a list of leaders I will contact the ones we have emails or P.O. addys for. A few years ago the Tuscararas of Ohio as well as other tribes, including Ollie met here to form an Ohio Indian Commission. We did a lot of the needed language to make it fly without looking like "ignoramusses."It was unamimously voted that Ollie not be asked to join due to his reputation and chicanery.
Elmer Boggs <ebbieboggs@msn.com wrote:
Tula & Russ,
I agree with what you say. It sounds good. My list is a little old, but if needed. Oliver and Barbara have held back all Indian people in Ohio. I don't know if they are just stupid or do they have a goal in mind.
Please read the following. This is just a start of something that could bring us all together. I am not asking you to except this, just give it some thought. There is a lot more, this is only a start.
Best regards
Elmer
First
PLEASE refer to your tribal people as "CITIZENS" and not members. As long as you use the term "member" you cede sovereignty to the US, the State, the COUNTY, the City or Town, and yes... even to the local Sewer District!
Membership belongs to a CLUB such as the YMCA, or a Corporation. Remember Corporations have members and not citizens!
You want to take hold of the destiny of the Tribe, then choose your words appropriately!
Call a Council Meeting just to define terms used in regard to your citizenry. Have a meeting and set up an appropriate LAW, as opposed to an ordinance, that requires each adult citizen of the Tribe to sign a
"re-affirmation of Tribal Status and Sovereignty." Do the same to establish a Tribal Child Welfare Law that mandates that each tribal child is a ward of the tribal court and tribal council with legal custody shared by Council and the Parent. Establish a requirement that the parent sign a "Power of Attorney" to the Council to intercede if the child is determined to be a child in need. Create a "Power of Attorney" that authorizes the Council (or it's appointed Officer) to represent the tribal citizen in all matters of governance.
Why? Because this establishes documented proof that the Tribe is a GOVERNING AUTHORITY at the WILL of the PEOPLE over its Citizens. The Courts have to acknowledge it as well as the Powers of Attorney or they have to declare ALL Powers of Attorney in the entire state as invalid. To do otherwise is an act of discrimination against an ethnic community and therefore a violation of human rights & genocidal activity. You do not BEG from the State of Ohio or the United States for your status as a governing authority. The PEOPLE of the Tribe establish the powers and grant the sovereignty for you to act.
Not one of the tribes in Ohio have this system in effect. They all beg their status from a foreign governing entity! Do not fall into that trap.
As a Legitimate Governing Authority, your Council determines who your Spokesman is! Not the State! Not the USBIA, and Not even the President of the United States.
With the Powers of Attorney in effect, you can require that the City, County, State and Federal Government go through the Tribal Council for every act, letter, solicitation, TAX FORM, etc. as the Power of Attorney of the individual citizen. Once they are informed, they must comply or be in violation of their own laws. You can even request the powers to regulate trade and intercourse which means you can act on behalf of a citizen in debt, having all letters of collection referred to the Tribal Council. This places you into a barganing position to negotiate settlements with collection agencies. Further, you can place arbitration clauses from the Tribe affecting all acts of commerce from a tribal citizen, and of which a credit granting agency becomes obligated from the onset of the grant of credit.
Elmer Kanati Boggs
----- Original Message -----
From: tula
To: Elmer Boggs; strongbow cooper; lisaiezzi@bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: This is my last e-mail to all Fires!
Elmer and Strongbow,
The idea I am suggesting would have each group represented by their leader...each with an equal voice representing the concerns of their own people. No one person can do the talking for all of us. The *Ohio Indian Commission membership will speak as individual chiefs, leaders, etc. *suggested name so it is nothing like NAAO and anyone born in America is an "native american"...we are Indians.
Love,
Tula
----- Original Message -----
From: tula
To: Elmer Boggs
Cc: strongbow cooper; Jean McCoard; tamsah@aol.com; carrie & logan; Dark Rain Thom
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: This is my last e-mail to all Fires!
Elmer, (I lost Ollie's and Barb's addy in a crash)
I strongly disagree that the Columbus Indian Center, or any Federally connected Indian Center should speak for us. They don't even recognize us as Indians.
I suggest we have all the Nation's leaders who are interested in forming an Ohio Indian Commission met and call it that...doing away with any old names we have used: First Nations, NAAO, etc. We need a totally new start.
With respect, Tula
Elmer Boggs <ebbieboggs@msn.com wrote:
Barbara Crandell
With all due respect, there is no question about anyone’s Cherokee blood. I have always had the highest respect for you and I still do. At your age, you should be on the Elders Council and let the kids take over.
I feel this issue is important enough to inform all Indian People everywhere.
Some of this information was not sent out to all and I feel it needs to get out there.
This is for all “Fires??? in Ohio. If you want or need more information, feel free to contact me.
You should have your meetings and decide if you need anyone to speak for you. Maybe some need help.
But I feel that if you need people like the NAAO to speak for you, you are in bad shape to start with.
The Rumor Mill, along with Greed, is getting a good start!
Now, rumors are going around that the leaders of the Native American Alliance of Ohio has called a meeting, “Announcing the Founding Meeting of the Native American Commission of Ohio???,
The Purpose; “The Native American peoples of Ohio are to decide on representatives to present to the State of Ohio as authorized speakers and counselors on legislative and educational matters of concern to Ohio Native Americans???. For all Indians in Ohio to choose “NAAO??? representatives to speak for all the Indians in Ohio on legislative issues. These people are not qualified to speak for our people.
Let it be known to all, that the Tallige Cherokee Indian People do not recognize the "Native American Alliance of Ohio" or their so called leaders, Oliver Collins, Barbara Crandall and their membership.
They have been trying to be the speaker for all Native Americans in Ohio for several years.
I believe and feel very strongly that the lack of leadership in Southern Ohio has been our downfall. What makes these people think they can now speak for all Ohio Indian People? They are not qualified to speak for our people on any issue.
Remember what these same people did for the "First Nation of Ohio". They tried to speak for us then and we all lost everything. Everything was blamed on the Seneca people, Fred Kennedy.
Oliver Collins brought Barbara Crandell here and started the NAAO against our citizens wishes.
Oliver Collins brought Fred Kennedy here and didn’t like what he did, and got rid of him.
Oliver Collins brought George Morgan here and didn’t like what he did, and got rid of him.
Oliver Collins lost the Bird Mound by not holding up his end of the deal to build a museum.
Oliver Collins was replaced when he could not do the job he was brought in to do, State Recognition.
The Native American Alliance of Ohio and the Native American Commission of Ohio will not speak for me and our people. The Indian Centers of Columbus, Ohio would be a better choice.
Other Rumors;
Rumors going around; Money being paid under the table to some officials to look the other way.
Rumors going around; claim that Oliver Collins and Barbara Crandall co-chair the NAAO.
Rumors going around; claim Oliver Collins claims to be over all Native Americans in Southern Ohio
Rumors going around; claim Barbara Crandall claims to be over the Newark, Ohio Native Americans
Rumors going around; Barbara Crandall claims to have been a member of Tallige for several years.
Rumors going around; Oliver Collins claimed only to be a member of an amateur genealogical society, but later claimed to be the Principal Chief of the Tallige Cherokee Nation.
Barbara Crandell said;
Mr. Boggs has made a serious mistake by trying to use my name to give himself some sort of legitimacy.
I, Elmer Boggs said;
Your name does not give me any legitimacy.
Barbara Crandell said;
Mr. Elmer Boggs, on the other hand has tried everything in the book to keep Native people from getting ahead in the state of Ohio. His focus has been Oliver Collins and now he has added Barbara Crandell to the list. I don't know what I have done to deserve this honor.
I, Elmer Boggs said;
The only thing I have done is try to keep us together, but you don’t want our people to work together.
Barbara Crandell said;
Mr. Boggs has accused state officials of taking bribes,
I, Elmer Boggs said;
Rumors going around; Money being paid under the table to some officials to look the other way.
Barbara Crandell said;
This is serious charge against the NAAO and the Cleveland Indian Center. NAAO has never engaged in any illegal actions of any kind. We have stood our grounds on several occasions but we have never broke a law. I think he had better apologize before it gets out of hand. I do not take kindly to people who slander my name.
I, Elmer Boggs said;
I do not know anything about NAAO and the Cleveland Indian Center and I have never said anything about them.
Barbara Crandell said;
If in deed I said I was a member of the Tallige Fire it was true. I have been an associate member for years.
That is no excuse for my mistake, but it is damn good reason.
I, Elmer Boggs said;
When you lie and point a wrong finger at someone, it is a mistake. You have never been a citizen of Tallige
I don’t like people who lie.
Barbara Crandell said;
1.- I am not a member of the over the hill Cherokee, I don't know these people.
2.- Prior to April 2005 I had never told any person that I was a member of the Tallige Fire Organization.
I, Elmer Boggs said;
When you lie and point a wrong finger at someone, it is a mistake. You have never been a citizen of Tallige
I don’t like people who lie.
Barbara Crandell said;
1.- “I am not a member of the over the hill Cherokee, I don't know these people???.
I, Elmer Boggs said;
The following was taken from an e-mail from Dr. Richard L. Allen:
The Overhill Villages are a creation of the anthropologists/archaeologists to identify groupings of Cherokee and were never acknowledged as such by the Cherokee. It has only been within recent years that individual such as Oliver Collins, Hu Gibbs, Richard Paugh, Barbara Crandall, et al have claimed to be descended from forgotten Cherokees called the Overhill band. However, none of these individuals have never been able to establish any legitimate connection to any of the three legitimate Cherokee governments.
It seems that some groups are aggressively appropriating an American Indian identity. Some are attempting to repatriate the bones of our ancestors to gain legitimacy with other non-Indians. In 1987, the Ohio group did conduct a "reburial ceremony" of remains (probably ancient Shawnee remains) that were turned over to them by officials of the Scioto County government. The group claimed to have conducted a traditional Cherokee reburial ceremony.
A videotape of news reports chronicles the event including the forty-seven, small caskets that are passed down by women, one to another, into a community burial pit. In the center of the pit, a fire has been built "to smudge" the burial area and the remains as explained by Oliver Collins.
Collins introduced Hugh Gibbs as the Principal Chief of the Etowah Cherokee Tribe (another bogus group) with whom Tallige Fire claims association. Gibbs oversees the re-interment "ceremony." According to Collins, Mr. Gibbs is a fullblood Cherokee medicine man. During this same time and on videotape, Mr. Collins claimed only to be a member of an amateur genealogical society,
But now claims to be the Principal Chief of the Tallige Cherokee Tribe.
*******
Barbara Crandell said;
2.- “Prior to April 2005 I had never told any person that I was a member of the Tallige Fire Organization.
I, Elmer Boggs said;
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Crandell" <naao@ascenture.net
To: sysop@nvi.net (Letter to George Morgan)
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 12:54 PM
Subject: Bird Effigy Mound
The Tallige people have been guardians of the Bird Effigy Mound for several years and never considered
themselves to be the sole owner. Not once in the eight years I have been a member have I heard anyone say or do anything disrespectful while they are at the mound. Every year, hundreds of school children come to the grounds and members of the Tallige Fire Nation put on programs for them. In doing the programs they hope to broaden the children’s knowledge of Indian culture. It is not the ways of Indian people to have Museums. Museums are a white euro thing that is used to make Indians think they are being honored. I do not want a museum at the mound nor do I want a gift shop there. The Birds Effigy Mound is a cemetery. Plain and Simple as that, it is a CEMETERY.
Elmer Kanati Boggs
----- Original Message ----- (Page 1 of 2) sent to Elmer Boggs
From: Barbara Crandell
To: oliver.collins@verizon.net; carrsha9@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 6:16 PM
Subject: [Fwd: Fw: Rumors]
To whom it may concern:
The forward I have sent to you is a sorry attempt to stop any thing from happening in the state of Ohio. What a shame some people stand off from the circle and throw stones at any one who attempts to to move forward with positive actions. . I prefer to build rather then tear down. Mr. Elmer Boggs, on the other hand has tried every thing in the book to keep Native people from getting ahead in the state of Ohio. His focus
has been Oliver Collins and now he has added Barbara Crandell to the list. I don't know what I have done to deserve this honor. Mostly I work everyday toward the future for my family and other Native people in the state.
To my knowledge I have never spoken for any person other my self and the Native American Alliance (NAAO), Mr. Boggs has accused state officials of taking bribes, now I feel it time he stepped up and
justified this accusation. This is serious charge against the NAAO and the Cleveland Indian Center. NAAO has never engaged in any illegal actions of any kind. We have stood our grounds on several occasions but we have never broke a law. I think he had better apologize before it gets out of hand. I do not take kindly to people who slander my name.
Any person reading the flyer for the formation of an Indian Commission in the state of Ohio will clearly see no one is advocating any person speak for ALL the people in the State of Ohio. Mr. Boggs has made a serious mistake by trying to use my name to give himself some sort of legitimacy. I am a Cherokee person by blood my grandfather and grandmother and on back are on the Eastern Band Cherokee rolls. Like it or not I do have the Cherokee blood in my veins. I am not a member of the over the hill Cherokee, I don't know these people. Prior to april 2005 I had never told any person that I was a member of the Tallige Fire Organization.
Now we come to why is Elmer Boggs so hell bent on stopping the formation of an Indian commission?. He is a bad spirited person that is living in the past and trying make sure if he can't control every thing it is not going to happen. He believes if he sucks up to Ok. and N.C. Indians they will love him and give him a home.
When his people came from Virginia to Ky. and settled in Sacred Wind my people were already living there. See (Coming to Kentucky, by Hugh Boggs)
We have tried to be as open and above board as we can. Why is Elmer Boggs is sending Ohio business to Ok people is a mystery to me. Let Ohio take care of Ohio If any OHIO person wishes to have any more information on this please contact me and I will do my best to provide it to you.
What makes Elmer Boggs think we are eying the Shawnee casino? He must be trying to get them to build him one. We have never even thought about them and we don't lose any sleep over it. I worry about people running around telling people they are Indian and talking like this, it gives all of the real Native people a bad reputation. besides it bears out the general publics opinion of Natives being drunks, casino
crazy, raving fry bread addicts.
I am sure there is thousand more things to say but to what advantage is it? Why can't Indian people come together and do something that will help our children, help other Native people, help our ancestor to go on their journey? Why can't Elmer show up and speak for HIS PEOPLE, and act like a one of the real people instead of a dog in the manger?
Barbara Crandell
----- Original Message ----- (Page 2 of 2) sent to Elmer Boggs
From: Barbara Crandell
To: ebbieboggs@msn.com; oliver collins; twobears98@hotmail.com; jdmccoard@bright.net; rssharp@dragonbbs.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:36 AM
Subject: RUMORs???
Elmer:
let me be the first to congratulate you !!!! You found the only mistake I have made in the last 50 years. If in deed I said I was a member of the Tallige Fire It was true. I have been an associate member for years,
in April of this year I accepted a card from the Chief. I did not remember ever saying I was member but Mr. Morgan can make folks do and say things that would turn the air blue for several yards in both direction. That is no excuse for my mistake, but it is damn good reason.
In no way would I ever speak for you or your people. What ever you think you read in that flyer about someone going to speak for Elmer Boggs, must have been put into it after it left my hands. WE DID SAY
SHOW UP OR SHUT. So show up and speak for your people. At least ask your people who they would like to have speak for them.
As far as Mr. Allen, I have no problem with him being a flunky to any one he sees fir to serve. I DO NOT KNOW THE OVER THE HILL PEOPLE. Because Mr. Allen lumped me in that group does not in any way make me part of them. My Grandpa made his own way to Ky. We never belonged to any group of over the hill people. I am not a servant to any Federal Government flunky. I told Mr. Allen that sometime ago. My people did not sign any treaties, they lived free and made their own living. I have the roll numbers of all of my mothers people they were on the Eastern Band of Cherokee (EBC) rolls on up through 1880s, I have never ask any thing of EBC because I have no relatives on the 1924 rolls. I let the people who signed the treaties take care of their business and I take care of my own, as free Cherokee Indian. I walk the land that I have purchased and pay taxes on, my children are free and walking the land I bought and kept in trust for them. I owe no man.
Elmer, you keep harping on that First Nation if it had been feasible I would have worked night and day for it. It would not work because Fred Kennedy was only here to make romantic connections and get all the money he could con us out of. Oliver and I caught on to his game and he started to tell everybody they had to get rid of those two old people. I often wondered why you and Iron Eyes didn't go on with the
Nation thing? Didn't you have enough money or maybe your wife's and daughters were not pretty enough. Mr. Fred Kennedy caused a lot of heart ache among our people. I am sorry we ever let him in the door.
I am going to ask you in all fairness, Do not use my name when you speak of bribes and underhanded dealings. I walk in the sunshine and I let the truth be my umbrella. If you want to know any thing from me, just ask do not sleaze around behind my back. I sent you the e-mail I wrote please have the honor to do the same for me.
Barbara Crandell
----- Original Message -----
From: Barbara Crandell
To: ebbieboggs@msn.com; oliver collins; twobears98@hotmail.com; jdmccoard@bright.net; rssharp@dragonbbs.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:36 AM
Subject: RUMORs???
Hi Elmer:
This newest "meeting" is shades of what we have seen before. I am reminded of one such meeting that took place in 1992 in West Union - in which guns were pulled and threats made. I'm also reminded of First Nation, and then subsequent "confederation" meetings that came to nothing.
You are right in that we do not have a cohesive group or leadership in southern Ohio. We have started a little group known as Trio (Tri-Regional Indian Organization) - you get our emails. It was not intended to be a politically active body - but to work on projects that might help our people. Unfortunately - we have found that the biggest problem is that NOBODY likes anybody--and there is too much of "if he's in, I'm out", etc. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies. That lets other small groups assert themselves as leaders and spokespeople. "Whoever has the loudest voice wins!"
The good thing about Trio is that we have structured it so that no one is "boss".We have a rotating chairmanship. It was designed that way to keep egos from overcoming our goals. And to keep any one of us from becoming a controller and dictator. (We had to much of that in the past.) Our goal is to be engaged in positive dialogue and cooperative and collaborative partnerships.
I wish that we could put together people from the area that could be A "voice" in southern Ohio (not THE voice!!) and give us some strength in addressing state issues.
I do know that it does not matter WHO decides who will be Indian spokespeople in Ohio on legislation. Unless a system is developed by the state government and is sanctioned by it, there is no formal Indian authority in the state. And when it comes to developing legislation, or speaking on it--as citizens of the state of Ohio we ALL have the right to speak on any issue regardless of our standing or status as Indians. Even white people can weigh in on Indian issues. (God knows the archeologists are in there pitching all the time. And their legislation does not benefit us in the least.)
However, I believe it to be presumptuous of ANY organization to call a meeting for the purpose of establishing leadership and adding the edict: "This is a put up or shut up meeting." As we all know, it won't work anyway!
Perhaps our best strategy is to continue informing the people of activities, and politely ignore some of the more egregious offerings that come our way.
Did you want me to send you that big old file on Birchfield history???
Jean
P.O. Box 748
Tahlequah, Ok. 74465
Ref. Barbara Crandell
Mr. Allen,
In your recent communication with Elmer Boggs of Scioto County. You seemed to be called upon to mentioned my name in your some what rambling analyses of who is or who isn't Cherokee Indian. Your calling in life may be to determine what a tribe consist of? but it does not include the privilege of determining who is Cherokee Indian, maybe you can determine who is to be enrolled but you do not have the power to say who has the the blood in their veins.
I do not need to be on the rolls of your tribe to be a Cherokee person. My family, starting with my Grandfather,(mother's father) Great grand Mother (mother's grandmother)and on back to Mary and John Maney, are on the Eastern Band rolls. NOT ON 1924 ROLLS, which the Eastern Band Nation holds to be necessary for enrollment. My Grandfather left Yancy County N.C. in 1883, I don't know anything about the over the hill gang.
I have never once in my 74 years on this earth said I was enrolled or that I speak for any nation, band or tribe of Native people. I am not a Clan mother, Chief, Pipe carrier, Medicine person, or any of the things
which seem to make the modern day so called Indian happy and content.
I am called Grandmother by some people, I never tell any one to call me this. I am mother of four children, grand mother to seven, great-grandmother to eight. I have always lived an honorable life, paid my bill and educated my children, Our children's chosen professions are, Attorney, school teacher, artist /horse trainer, and a social worker. All four of my children and six of my grandchildren live on 170 acre farm in Thornville, Ohio.
I know most of the people of whom you speak of in you letter. Most of them are just plain folks with out malice or hate for any persons. There are a few bad apples in the barrel and they manage to cause one group of people to raise up against the other. I will have no part of their small petty actions. If you or they want to do something constructive, why don't you and them address the Ohio Historical Society's(OHS) policy of keeping six thousand plus dead Indians on their shelf? (they call them "our collection.") Every day the archaeologist and so called scientific community along with OHS are rewriting the history of the first people of Ohio. This is their way of continuing to practice genocide on Native people. Then along comes your letter to add to the confusing. Martha Otto (OHS) was so happy to see my name used in the same letter with the likes of Hu Gibbs she sent it out to every agency in Ohio.
It will take more then that to shut me up. One year ago the OHS had me arrested for praying on an Indian mound in Newark, Ohio. I am not going to the end of my journey in disgrace over this arrest, I feel my
Grandmothers will welcome me in to the spirit world because I pray every day giving my thanks to the earth and sky for all of the wonderful gifts I have been given.
I am the chair person of the Native American Alliance of Ohio (NAAO). This Organization is made up of descendant of several Indian Nation (some are enrolled with their Nation). Not one of them ever presume to
speak for any Nation. WE DO NOT have ceremony, sweat lodges, medicine person, Chiefs, Clan Mothers or pipe carriers. We will sometime have prayer before and after a meeting.
NAAO has worked with the Federal Government for eight years to secure the green space (170 clean acres, known as the buffer zone between the Nuclear weapons plant and the community) to be used as a cemetery for the old ones now being held captive by the OHS and the Universities in Ohio. We have insisted on the Federal Government contacting all Tribes that signed the Greenville Treaty. Since the tribes will not communicate with us, we have to trust that they are being told the truth. We use our funds to do all of this work. I am not your enemy nor will I ever be. I do not speak for you, I know much of my traditions and have lived my life according to the original instructions. I can only hope you will deter from your destructive path and find peace in you existence.
Yours Sincerely,
Barbara Crandell
CC
Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians
P.O. Box 455
Cherokee, N.C. 28719
United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians
2450 Muskogee Ave.
Tahlequah, OK 74464
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CCooperStrongBow@aol.com <CCooperStrongBow@aol.com>
Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:06 PM
EbbieBoggs@msn.com <EbbieBoggs@msn.com> Sisterofwhales@aol.com <Sisterofwhales@aol.com>
Fwd: Fw: Cherokee??]
In a message dated 7/8/2003 11:45:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ctoo1@earthlink.net writes:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Cherokee??
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:44:30 -0400
From: Barbara Crandell <naao@avolve.net>
To: rallen@cherokee.org
The Cherokee Nation
P.O. Box 748
Tahlequah, Ok. 74465
Ref. Barbara Crandell
Mr. Allen,
In your recent communication with Elmer Boggs of Scioto County. You seemed to be called upon to mentioned my name in your some what rambling analyses of who is or who isn't Cherokee Indian. Your calling in life may be to determine what a tribe consist of? but it does not include the privilege of determining who is Cherokee Indian, maybe you can determine who is to be enrolled but you do not have the power to say who has the the blood in their veins.
I do not need to be on the rolls of your tribe to be a Cherokee person. My family, starting with my Grandfather,(mother's father) Great grand Mother (mother's grandmother)and on back to Mary and John Maney, are on the Eastern Band rolls. NOT ON 1924 ROLLS, which the Eastern Band Nation holds to be necessary for enrollment. My Grandfather left Yancy County N.C. in 1883, I don't know anything about the over the hill gang.
I have never once in my 74 years on this earth said I was enrolled or that I speak for any nation, band or tribe of Native people. I am not a Clan mother, Chief, Pipe carrier, Medicine person, or any of the things
which seem to make the modern day so called Indian happy and content. I am called Grandmother by some people, I never tell any one to call me this. I am mother of four children, grand mother to seven,
great-grandmother to eight. I have always lived an honorable life, paid my bill and educated my children, Our children's chosen professions are, Attorney, school teacher, artist /horse trainer, and a social worker.
All four of my children and six of my grandchildren live on 170 acre farm in Thornville, Ohio.
I know most of the people of whom you speak of in you letter. Most of them are just plain folks with out malice or hate for any persons. There are a few bad apples in the barrel and they manage to cause one group of people to raise up against the other. I will have no part of their small petty actions. If you or they want to do something constructive, why don't you and them address the Ohio Historical Society's(OHS) policy of keeping six thousand plus dead Indians on their shelf? (they call them "our collection.") Every day the archaeologist and so called scientific community along with OHS are rewriting the history of the first people of Ohio. This is their way of continuing to practice genocide on Native people. Then along comes your letter to add to the confusing. Martha Otto (OHS) was so happy to see my name used in the same letter with the likes of Hu Gibbs she sent it out to every agency in Ohio.
It will take more then that to shut me up. One year ago the OHS had me arrested for praying on an Indian mound in Newark, Ohio. I am not going to the end of my journey in disgrace over this arrest, I feel my
Grandmothers will welcome me in to the spirit world because I pray every day giving my thanks to the earth and sky for all of the wonderful gifts I have been given.
I am the chair person of the Native American Alliance of Ohio (NAAO). This Organization is made up of descendant of several Indian Nation (some are enrolled with their Nation). Not one of them ever presume to
speak for any Nation. WE DO NOT have ceremony, sweat lodges, medicine person, Chiefs, Clan Mothers or pipe carriers. We will sometime have prayer before and after a meeting.
NAAO has worked with the Federal Government for eight years to secure the green space (170 clean acres, known as the buffer zone between the Nuclear weapons plant and the community) to be used as a cemetery for the old ones now being held captive by the OHS and the Universities in Ohio. We have insisted on the Federal Government contacting all Tribes that signed the Greenville Treaty. Since the tribes will not communicate with us, we have to trust that they are being told the truth. We use our funds to do all of this work. I am not your enemy nor will I ever be. I do not speak for you, I know much of my traditions and have lived my life according to the original instructions. I can only hope you will deter from your destructive path and find peace in you existence.
Yours Sincerely,
Barbara Crandell
CC
Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians
P.O. Box 455
Cherokee, N.C. 28719
United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians
2450 Muskogee Ave.
Tahlequah, OK 74464
---
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" I Would Rather Die Fighting For Principles Than Not To Have Any"
Russell Cooper
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Crandell" <naao@ascenture.net>
To: <sysop@nvi.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 12:54 PM
Subject: Bird Effigy Mound
Dear Mr. Morgan,
My name ia Barbara Crandell, I am the Co-Chariperson of the Native American Alliance of Ohio, and a member fo the Tallige Fire Nation of Portsmouth, Ohio. I do not speak for the Tallige Fire Nation or the Native American Alliance of Ohio. All staements and opinions in this letter are mine and have not been solicited by other persons.
In a recent meeting I was given copies of two e-mails signed by you. These e-mails suggest that you believe The Tallige Fire people have been amiss in their treatment of other Indian people. Let me inform you, nothing could be farther from the truth. I can go back several years and recite the names, time, and places when Native American people were welcomed to the Fire at the Bird mound. You are right to be concerned about us, because we do not readily suffer fools.
I do not believe you have a humble opinion, your attitude is one of arrogance, with overtones of grandoise. You hint at "several independant organizations" with out revealing their names. One can only wonder if they have been told the truth of all matters pertaining to the Bird Effigy Mound. You refer to the Mound having your ancestors buried in it, yet I fail to see any reference to your gratitude for all the years Tallige people have watched over them and kept them safe.
Several Messiahs have come to us seeking a home and speaking with honey in their mouth, only for us to find ourselves much poorer when they leave town. Sometime we are poorer in money, sometimes we are poorer in people, this time it seems we will lose the rights to preserve and protect the sacred grounds of the ancestors final resting place. Mr. Morgan, the tone of your letters and the recent dialogue between the Attorney for Tallige Fire and the Scioto county Commisioners leads me to believe you have over stepped your bounds. I do not believe anyone can speak for the Tallige people when they speak behind closed doors. This is one members opinion, and this memeber wil launch a full scale investigation into your activity in Scioto County and I will also be in touch with my Representative, and Congressman about our rights.
The Tallige people have been gaurdian of the Bird Effigy Mound for several years and never considered themselves to be the sole owner. Not once in the eight years I have been a member have I heard anyone say or do anything disrespectful while they are at the mound. Every year, hundreds of school children come to the grounds and members of the
Tallige Fire Nation put on programs for them.In doing the programs they hope to broaden the childrens knowledge of Indian culture. It is not the ways of Indian people to have Museums. Museums are a white euro thing that is used to make Indians think they are being honored. I do not want a museum at the mound nor do i want a gift shop there. The Birds Effigy Mound is a cemetery. Plain and Simple as that, it is a CEMETERY.
January 1994, Don Greefeather of the Loyal Band of Shawnee, came to Ohio from Oklahoma and we welcomed him with a fire and gifts. I drove 90 miles in a snow storm to welcome him. On reaching the grounds, the snow was up to my calves and I stood in the circle with him and his people for close to an hour. Later we all went to Shawnee University where we listened to his speech. Don't tell me about welcoming people, I was raised in a traditional home by a Cherokee mother. I know traditions and it is not traditional to come into another Indian Territory and take liberties with thier exsistence. You have acted in a bad way and I for one am telling you about your bad manners, and your shabby treatment of my people.
Barbara Crandell
----- Original Message -----
From: Network Operations <sysop@nvi.net>
To: <naao@ascenture.net>
Cc: <eillo@bright.net>; <skipriffe@earthlink.net>; <pauadams@cherokee_nation.zzn.com>; <peadams@zoomnet.net>; <eboggs@zoomnet.net>; <captain@afinc.net>; <BPalmer@pop.uky.edu>; <zginger44@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: Bird Effigy Mound
Greetings,
I also speak only for myself. I do not represent the Tallige or the Commissioners nor do I represent any group. My words are my own.
The statement in your message to me
- "In a recent meeting I was given copies of two e-mails signed by you. These e-mails suggest that you believe The Tallige Fire people have been amiss in their treatment of other Indian people." -
I do not know what you were given or to what you are referring to. If you would be so kind as to clarify exactly what you are referring to I would be most appreciative.
The statement
- "I do not believe you have a humble opinion, your attitude is one of arrogance, with overtones of grandoise." -
Your words do not make my statements false. Truth does not require your permission to exist, it stands by itself. If candid and direct discussion is viewed by you as being "arrogance, with overtones of grandoise", I respectfully suggest that your letter to me is overflowing with "arrogance, with overtones of grandoise" and a good measure of self importance. Your introduction as being Co-Chariperson of the Native American Alliance of Ohio is of no consequence and meaningless unless you wish to represent your words as being those of the Alliance. Unless of course you wish to impress me with your "Title".
Regarding the statement
- "You hint at "several independant organizations" with out revealing their names. One can only wonder if they have been told the truth of all matters pertaining to the Bird Effigy Mound." -
I have shared the names and contact information with the Tallige and the Commission on several occasions. All anyone need do is ask. I did not contact any organization or individual to educate, persuade, or complain to them in anyway about any Tallige matters. I called them seeking advice and help in how to best preserve and protect the mound site and surrounding grounds or to gather information they had relating to the history of the mound. As to whether or not they have been told the "truth of all matters pertaining to the Bird Effigy Mound" I can not say. I would suggest that you share information with them if you have something to share. As I do not represent the Tallige I said nothing regarding the Tallige involvement. I did not contact them to discuss the Tallige, but rather to seek assistance and information about successful strategies to preserve and repair the site. I have in fact stated that the actions of the Tallige stand on their own.
Specifically they are:
- OSU Anthropology Department regarding the anthropology, archeology and carbon dating activities done to establish the origins and identification of the skeletal remains removed from the mound.
- Ohio Historical Society
- National Parks Service
- members of the Ohio House of Representatives
- Cultural Resources Center of the National Museum of the American Indian
- American Indian Ritual Object Repatriation Foundation
- Eastern and Western Cherokee Nations
- The Loyal Order of Shawnee and the inter tribal group established to manage NAGPRA issues
- The Kaw Nation
- The Kickapoo Nation
- The Osage Nation
- The Ponca Nation
- The Pawnee Nation
- The Quapaw Nation
- The Miami Nation
Regarding the statement
- "You refer to the Mound having your ancestors buried in it, yet I fail to see any reference to your gratitude for all the years Tallige people have watched over them and kept them safe." -
You behave as though you have the right to demand of others gratitude for what you consider to be the good works of the Tallige. Why did the Tallige watch over the ancestors? Was it so that they would be esteemed and honored by others? Was it so that they could march around in a prideful way beating the drum saying "look what we have done!" Was it so they could say "We have done this great and honorable thing. Now all native peoples owe us their gratitude."? Or did the Tallige watch over the ancestors remembering the old ways and honoring those that have gone before us?
I have been taught by my Elders that a true gift is given with an open hand. Never with the expectation of reward or obligation to the receiver. Never in a prideful or arrogant manner. To care for the ancestors is an honor - not a right to be granted by others. My gratitude, my thanks, belong to Creator for providing the means by which our ancestors have been preserved these many thousands of years. The time that the Tallige have been involved is not even the smallest moment of a birds heart beat and my involvement is even less than that. I, like the Tallige, am forever tied to the mound and our ancestors. A piece of me and of you will forever remain there.
I have consistently stated that the site is the sacred burial location of the ancestors of many - and that my ancestors are buried there. On many occasions when speaking with others that have shared with me differences of opinion with the Tallige, including ex members of the Tallige, I always make it a point to tell them that while they may have nothing good to say about the Tallige no one can change the fact that if the Tallige had not been involved these many years the mound would have been destroyed and desecrated long ago. Having shared that opinion with those the emails were intended for I of course did not reiterate it in the emails you may have seen.
Regarding the statement
- "Several Messiahs have come to us seeking a home and speaking with honey in their mouth, only for us to find ourselves much poorer when they leave town. Sometime we are poorer in money, sometimes we are poorer in people, this time it seems we will lose the rights to preserve and protect the sacred grounds of the ancestors final resting place."
I appreciate your sharing the experiences the Tallige have had with others. Mr. Collins has told me of some events in the past similar to your references.
Apparently the information shared with you by others grossly misrepresents my activities and objectives. I have never sought a home with the Tallige nor have I ever represented myself as some sort of "Messiah". In fact I find the entire notion of a "Messiah" repulsive. I have consistently declined requests for pictures and newspaper interviews. I have insisted that credit for any positive results be given to others. I am just a two legged. The record shows I have respectfully asked that our ancestors be left in peace and that the mound be preserved and restored to its original condition. The only thing I have asked of the Tallige is to speak with one voice. I have asked for nothing more and certainly not asked for anything for myself.
Opportunity exists for the Tallige to participate in the disposition of these matters in a good way. If they choose to proceed independent of their agreement to participate in a collaboration of interested parties it is of course their right to do so. A decision not to participate in that manner will make more difficult a happy resolution to the issues at hand.
If it is to be that the Tallige lose the opportunity to participate in the preservation and protection of the mound it will only be the result of the actions of Tallige and its leadership. We all make our own medicine. I was told early on that the Tallige "let the Commission believe what ever they wanted to believe" about what would be done with the grounds if the Commission allowed the Tallige to lease the land. There was even a grand business plan drawn up for the development of the grounds. None of it was sincere and little was ever done. I respectfully suggest that the fruits of those seeds of deception have been shown in many ways. I understand that there was a time among the people when the members numbered 500 or more. When participation of many made the work light. Now there is but a handful that are involved in any meaningful way and the membership is greatly reduced.
The statement
- "Mr.Morgan, the tone of your letters and the recent dialogue between the Attorney for Tallige Fire and the Scioto county Commissioners leads me to believe you have over stepped your bounds. I do not believe anyone can speak for the Tallige people when they speak behind closed doors." -
This is perplexing. I have no idea what you are referring to. While I understand that your interpretation of "the tone of your letters " is disturbing to you. I have no direct knowledge of the dialogue between the Attorney for Tallige Fire and the Scioto county Commissioners.
I have never attempted to represent the Tallige and have never presented myself as doing so. In fact on the one and only occasion that the council of the Tallige gave me words to take to the Commissioners I was unable to do so because the day after the words were given to me the words changed and became dead. The words I was given were that the Tallige would ask for one seat on the board of directors for a trust. The next day I was told by Mr. Collins that the Tallige wanted more than one seat. The fact that I could not and would not take dead words to the Commission was shared with Mr. McCord, Mr. Collins and others.
I have never spoken for the Tallige in any way. I have from day one been animate in my position that I speak only for myself, that I do not listen to the words of anger or discontent of others telling me what another has said. That I will listen only to the words that are spoken directly to me by the person that has something to say to me. I do not hear gossip and innuendo.
Every official request and suggestion for protecting and preserving the mound made by me to the Commissioners has been done in open session on the appropriate days that the Commission meets. I am unaware of any closed door activities. If you have any evidence of improper activities I would respectfully suggest that you share that evidence with the Commission.
The statement
- "This is one members opinion, and this memeber wil launch a full scale investigation into your activity in Scioto County and I will also be in touch with my Representative, and Congressman about our rights." -
It is certainly your right to proceed as you deem best. If I can be of any assistance please do not hesitate to ask. I would invtite others to follow your example of accepting an active role in these matters. However I do not see that trying to find fault is a productive activity.
Regarding the statement
- "The Tallige people have been gaurdian of the Bird Effigy Mound for several years and never considered themselves to be the sole owner. Not once in the eight years I have been a member have I heard anyone say or do anything disrespectful while they are at the mound." -
It is my humble opinion that the Tallige do indeed desire to control all aspects of the grounds.
This opinion is based on:
- the sign out front that states that the site is the home of the Tallige
- the business cards that state the address of the Tallige is the mound site
- the stated desire of the Tallige to control a trust or foundation with majority representation on the board(s)
- to control and direct any funding for the preservation and restoration activities
- the words of the Tallige council to me that if the Tallige can not participate in the preservation of the mound they will "strike the war pole" and there will be war
- the establishment of a sweat lodge built into the back side of the burial mound
- the stomp grounds and ceremonial circle built at the site
- the offices in the trailer on the site
- the use of the mound site for Tallige business meetings
- the decision to proceed independently in the discussions with the Commissioners
- the notion of funding preservation and restoration with moneys derived from gambling
All this points to objectives not in keeping with the Tillage's stated mission to preserve and repair the mound in cooperation with all interested parties in a good way.
As for doing anything disrespectful, it is my understanding from Mr. Collins and other members of the Tallige that there are burials all around the area - not just directly in the mound itself - if this is true, and I believe it to be so - the Tallige do indeed dance on the bones of the ancestors of many. I have been taught that this is very disrespectful to other nations that claim common ancestry to those buried in the area. It has been shared with me by Elders of other nations that such activities are indeed a blood offense. One who pours the water has shared with me that a sweat lodge built into a burial mound is disrespectful in the extreme - I have no reason to disbelieve him.
I understand and respect that in the opinion of Tallige no disrespect was intended and that the Tallige do not believe they have done anything wrong. Recognize that others disagree and it is their right to do so.
The statement
- "Every year, hundreds of school children come to the grounds and members of the Tallige Fire Nation put on programs for them.In doing the programs they hope to broaden the childrens knowledge of Indian culture" -
It is true that the Tallige once received, in the past, State of Ohio recognition for those types of activities. They have not however, to my knowledge, received any recognition from any Federally recognized tribes. It is my understanding that for the last year and a half very little if anything has been done in the way of educational programs. I have no doubt that there are true descendants of Cherokee blood among the Tallige. I too am descended of Cherokee blood and my family carries on traditional Cherokee ways as best we know how. I do not however "teach" Indian culture nor do I "teach" Cherokee ways. I have always made it clear that anything of a traditional nature I can only share. That I am not a teacher and I only share what my family traditions are.
Members of the Cherokee nation have shared with me that the notion of state regognized wannabes teaching Indian culture is repulsive. I would ask you what endorsements do the Tallige have from the Cherokee nation? Are the Federal Nations involved in any way with the Tallige's "educational programs"? By what means of calculation do the Tallige claim to be a "Nation"? The Tallige do not meet any Federal guidlines that I am aware of and for that matter they do not meet any guidlines of the Cherokee Nation I am aware of. Yet the Tallige claim to be qualified to teach true Cherokee ways and Indian culture. Who among the Tallige has been trained in the ways of the teaching lodge? Where is the spirtual leader? It is one thing to _share_ the traditions of your family. It is a very different thing to present yourself as a teacher or to attempt to represent a culture that has not given you its permission to do so.
It was shared with me that the primary focus of the Tallige for the last year or so has been the establishment of the bingo hall and those activities have consumed a great deal of time and resources leaving little time of late for the activities you describe.
The statement
- "It is not the ways of Indian people to have Museums. Museums are a white euro thing that is used to make Indians think they are being honored. I do not want a museum at the mound nor do i want a gift shop there. The Birds Effigy Mound is a cemetery. Plain and Simple as that, it is a CEMETERY" -
Happily here we find common ground and complete agreement. It has never been my suggestion to construct a museum or gift shop _on_ the mound site. Quite the opposite. I have suggested that if it was the desire of the Tallige (please reference the business plan put forth by the Tallige to develop the mound site several years ago) or others to pursue those types of activities that a parks district, bounded by lands _other than the mound
TheRebel:
Continued ..
************************************
site. Quite the opposite. I have suggested that if it was the desire of the Tallige (please reference the business plan put forth by the Tallige to develop the mound site several years ago) or others to pursue those types of activities that a parks district, bounded by lands _other than the mound site _ , be established by adoption of a resolution by the County Commissioners and submitted to the appropriate probate judge for implementation. This would provide a structure for funding and lands, as well as management guidlines to place a museum, gift shop, learning center, village recreation and other activities of a business or tourism nature. It would also meet the public responsibility the Commission has to manage lands in its care for the greater public good.
I have on occasions suggested that some county land surrounding the mound site be made available for purchase. It is my hope that the needs of the Tallige people for a place to call their own can be accomplished by this. I also hope that such land would be close to the mound site and that the Tallige would activly participate in the care of the mound and our ancestors.
I have suggested _exactly_ as you have that the mound site is a cemetery. That it should be declared a cemetery and enjoy the protection with enforcement that the earlier work others provided when, about a year and a half ago, the laws were amended to include Indian burial grounds. That the entire area be repaired, that all buildings and structers, construction materials, sidewalks, new growth trees, as well as debris from the 1909 county home and dog pound and county garage be removed. That the area be re-seeded with old grasses and plants as it was in the old days (These are available from horticulture preservation organizations). That the site be maintained by traditional peoples from many nations. That the site be made available for ceremonies by all nations. I have offered these suggestions as a starting point. The suggestions of others must be incorporated into a plan, developed in open workshops, and that the proccess be expedited so that the work that needs to be done can begin while the weather is good for
such happy activities.
It is with a sad heart I have seen the Tallige pull away from the open hand of the Commissioners and the agreement made the first day I spoke to the Commission. It is my understanding that all of the suggestions made are possible.
The statement
-"Don't tell me about welcoming people, I was raised in a traditional home by a Cherokee mother. I know traditions and it is not traditional to come into another Indian Territory and take liberties with thier exsistence. You have acted in a bad way and I for one am telling you about your bad manners, and your shabby treatment of my people."
I have never said anything to you about welcoming people in a bad way. In fact we have not met that I am aware of. I have never "told" you anything until this correspondence. You are indeed fortunate to have been raised in a traditional home. Many of our people have not had the privilege of knowing their family traditions.
The way I see the situation the Commissioners have canceled the sale of the land, invited open and productive input about how to protect, preserve and repair the grounds, gathered together all of the funary objects and put them under lock and key awaiting final decisions, offered to repatriate both the bones and the artifacts to the mound, are willing to consider greatly expanded amounts of land for protection and management, are not opposed to multi-nation gatherings in the historic area of lower Shawnee Town, are
enthusiastic about providing formal cultural diversity educational opportunities to the community as a whole, are firmly committed to the long term preservation of the land, are willing to take the time required to work it all out, and have respectfully listened to all that would share productive input.
If you feel that by my participation in these good results I have somehow "come into another Indian Territory and take liberties with thier exsistence" then so be it. I do not share that view.
I mean no disrespect to you or your people. I tell you that by your comments to me, based on the false words of others, you disrespect your ancestors and my family. You would take issue with me about things you never took the time to be involved directly in and make accusations based on lies. I am very certain that whom ever presented you with the information you base your words to me on has other objectives. It is also very clear that what ever was told to you was incomplete at best and certainly not presented in a true way. There were several incidents by official representatives of the Tallige that were of great disrespect and insult to my family. I say were, because they are covered with earth, and I will not discuss them with anyone. As I shared with the council of the Tallige, perhaps in some small way by my actions in those matters, others will find a way to mend the circle and let our ancestors rest in peace with honor.
I have meet many of the Tallige with good hearts and I have been told by others that you are a kind and good person. It is in the spirit of that understanding that I have responded to your letter.
Warmest regards,
George Morgan
Wantabee????
Barbara Crandell <naao@avolve.net> wrote:
Mike,
I would like to respond to Mr. Allens, complaints or should I say his condemning character assassination. I am saddened to see he has gone back to 1887 to grind his racist ax. The topic he choose is one I am very familiar with.
Let us start with the 1987 burials that the Tallige people conducted and Mr. Allen so glowing recited.
The only way the people of Scioto county could get those ancestors to put them back in the ground was to promise the politicians they could film the burial. Several of the local politician were up for election in
1988 and they wanted to influence the public on how kind, caring and wonderful they were to allow the local Native people to bury their dead. their reasoning seem to be, every body will forget about the abuse
just as quick as we smooth the ground over the dead. NOT!!! NOT!! They will never forget.
Also they will never forget how when they ask the Eastern Band of Cherokee, Western Cherokee, several bands of Shawnee, American Indian Movement, Ohio Historical Society for help and guidance the Native
communities ask for money ranging from 2,500.00 to 8,000.00 when the Tallige said they did not have any money the Indian people turned their back. So the Tallige people turned to the only person who would was
willing to help. HUGH GIBBS
Trusting Hugh Gibbs may have been the worst mistake of the 20th century. He told those people how to conduct a traditional Cherokee burial. He presented himself as a medicine person with knowledge of such
things. They were trusting and naive. It is very unfortunate how a person with a line of con and handful of bogus papers can cause havoc on a group of innocent people. I am not saying he is not Native only that
he has a bad spirit.
The Tallige people are some of the finest folks you could ever meet. Now and then you have a bad apple who can not fit or work in the confines of the tribal structure. They stand on the outside and throw stones because they can't get a long with anybody. These people write letters that the tribe did not sanction. I have read some of them that was so bad it made my hair hurt.
Are they a tribe? I don't know. What is a tribe? Is it something that the Federal Government came up with? We all have to live in the manner which brings us the most honor and comfort. My folks choose to live away from the control of the nation. That does not make me white. OLiver Collins has been vilified and talked about by every person from the pope to the street beggars. What has he done to deserve it. Well let me tell you a few of the things he has done. He worked like a dog, took abuse from the Scioto county commissioners for years to keep the Bird Mound safe and clean. Every time the lease came up for renewal the commissioners would say "we will only sign this lease if you promise to put in a gift shop and a tourist center" . Every time Oliver would say "just as soon as we get the money we will do this thing." Then along
came some dude from Cleveland and said he would build this great shop and hire local people to run it. Tallige people were given the boot. They went into Adam County and bought land. They have the Bingo hall that has been making enough money to make payments on the land and the hall. maybe they shouldn't have called them selves Cherokee Nation but wasn't that what the great self determination bill was about?
I was raised with the notion that Indian people were Nations of the Original inhabitants of this land. Some people think being recognized by the very people who killed their people and stole their land makes them special and gives the right to say the rest of us do not exist.
I am Cherokee, I was born to a Cherokee mother, my grandmother, great grand mother, great great grandmother, great great great grandmother was Cherokee that is what made me a Cherokee. I know where these people lived ,and died. NO one on this earth can make me be any thing else.I have never ask the Cherokee Indian Nations for any thing. I have made a good living for my family. Raised my children, Gave them a good start in life and then was fortunate enough to have land to give them all a homestead. They are good Cherokee people, educated and gifted with skills to work and raise their children.
I owe no man, I respect everybody for what they say they are, I do not have the power to determine who is Indian. I hear how this or that person is not Indian, how do you make this determination? What god do you pray to to receive this power. My Creator smiles on me and gives me much comfort and guidance I thank him all day for my long life and for the smile of my great grand children.
Let us live in peace with each other, there are many enemies of Native people out there.
I am not one of them.
Barbara Crandell
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