Author Topic: Odyssey of the 8th Fire  (Read 21992 times)

Offline debbieredbear

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Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« on: June 21, 2006, 04:05:51 am »

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2006, 02:05:58 pm »
This is Steve McFadden's account of a walk supposedly done on behalf of William Commanda and other traditional elders. On the plus side, I don't see McFadden claiming to be something he's not, just an observer who wanted to help, which he sincerely believed he was doing and is doing. Commanda is also certainly a respected elder.

But McFadden has fallen for and promoted frauds before, like Benny LeBeau. Commanda's words have been misused by frauds before. The other people involved need to be looked at more.

Tom Dostou has alternately claimed to be Algonquin, Chipewayan, and Ananaki (sp?).

Questions raised about him using legit issues for his own ends before.
"Comments from NativeNet listowner, Gary Trujillo (
Like Lyn Dearborn, who recently posted an article asking some basic questions about just who these people represent and who endorses them and their walk, I'd be curious to know, as I'm sure would many of you, more of the details of what this walk is all about. The one thing I do know is that Tom Dostou was involved in a situation in April/May of last year when I got a call from him from Quebec, where he was taking part in a protest concerning Hydro Quebec's "SM-3" project on the Sainte-Marguerite River located on the Quebec North shore. Tom claimed to be working with and/or
representing the interests of Chief Gilbert Pilot of the community of Mani-Utenam, some of whose members were involved in a dispute with the Sept-Iles Band Council, who were apparently supporting the project.
I personally spent a great deal of energy trying to understand what was really going on there. Tom was claiming that the RCMP was poised to descend on the community for reasons that never were made entirely clear to me. Some people I spoke with in an attempt to investigate the matter claimed that Tom Dostou was an "outside agitator" and did not really represent anyone besides himself. The politics of that whole situation were too difficult to figure out, but it was clear that there was a lot more going on there than I ever was able to learn from Tom, and it began to feel as if there may have been an attempt being made to manipulate the opinion of people who were being called on to join in the protest on the grounds of a threat from a police force which it was being claimed had actual plans to use physical violence which were about to be carried out.
Since I never did get a satisfactory answer to some basic questions aimed at understanding what the real issues were, and I heard things to suggest that the issue may have had as much to do with local politics as it did with any real imminent threat from a national or provincial police force, and I was unable to get a definitive answer concerning just who Tom Dostou really represented, these questions remain open for me. If anyone can say anything more about Tom and/or about this present enterprise and who has come out in support of it that might give it some real legitimacy (or who has said anything against either one, for that matter), and doesn't mind going on record as saying so, please let us know. If anyone would like to report anything in confidence that can be independently verified, feel free to send information to me. I don't have the time and resources to do an actual investigation, but I would be glad to pass on the information anonymously to someone who could and would. Also, if anyone who is taking part in this event or who becomes involved in one of the ways mentioned in this article cares to tell us something about who all has organized and/or sponsored it, please do so as soon as possible (you can send a reply to this message to post a followup article).
Anyone interested in learning more about the situation to which I have just referred can retrieve articles from the NATIVE-L archives for the indicated time period. In doing a quick scan, I didn't find Tom Dostou's name in any of these articles, but I know that I exchanged numerous personal e-mail messages on the whole subject with others during this time period which document my attempts to learn more in this matter (these messages are in my personal archives). To get a selection of
articles which appeared in the public view, you might try:
// job echo=no
get nn-intro archives native-l
database search dd=rules outlim=4000
//rules dd *
select * in native-l from april 1994 to june 1994 where subject contains innu
print all
(send to "" - that's the numeral "1" in "tamvm1" and the letter "l" in "native-l"). You'll also be sent a copy of an article ("NN-INTRO ARCHIVES") explaining how to do other retrievals; omit the "get" line if you already have the article or know how to use the facility.
I sincerely hope that this walk is what its organizers claim it to be. Surely the earth needs healing, but we might all want to be somewhat careful and discerning in how we approach the problem and circumspect in choosing our travelling companions along the way.
P.S. I have looked at the Web site referred to in the article Roxanne has copied, and find it to be yet another of the many commercial sites rapidly springing up all over, selling art and books. It is not clear to what (if any) extent the artists/authors are Native people and where the proceeds of sales go, other than to profit the owners of the businesses involved. Caveat emptor.

"The questions Lyn asks below are all good ones, and I think they deserve
some answers. I'll post my own comments in a followup article --Gary ]

Are there any "new age" connections with this group? ... Is it mostly Native American or mostly "anglo"?
My other question is if anyone knows about the elder leading this "trek" ... William Commanda, "holder of the Seven Fires Prophesy 'wampum belt'." What tribe is he?
A 3700-mile "walk" is one heck of a distance to travel with such little publicity, and perhaps related planning ... especially with a group that hasn't been together very long.
My other reason for concern about the Earth Spirit "group" is the fact that they chose the "HIDDEN" option, rather than showing up in listings .... though that could go either way, I guess ... certainly
if I were "starting" up a Native Spirituality "list", I wouldn't want it listed at all, believing that unlisted is safer for screening out the "insincere element".
.... just some thoughts ...
Niin sa,

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2006, 02:15:50 pm »
Origins of the walk, which was mostly pagan people, at least originally, back in 99. Started out on an Eco Feminist board.
"[This thread is beginning to threaten becoming a discussion, meaning that it risks becoming inappropriate for the NATIVE-L list, which is reserved for passing on information and asking questions. I will continue to relay information passed on on this subject, but if any-one wants to talk about the subject, please use the NATCHAT list for that purpose. --Gary ( ]

In response to some of the questions that have been posted regarding the Earth-Spirit list, first, I need to say that I am NOT an organizer of the list, merely a subscriber. I joined because of the general aims of the list, in my interpretation, an opportunity to foster discussion on the spiritual aspects of environmental activism. I joined for personal and "academic" reasons. After being on the list for a week or so, I discovered that most of the active participants are pagans/wiccans. There are a few of us who are part of more "orthodox" religious organizations, and probably several who don't subscribe to any particular belief system.
My reason for wanting to let Native-L subscribers know about the list was to broaden the diversity of the participants. I am getting a bit tired of being flooded with the jargon of the pagans and wiccas on a list that professes to cater to people of diverse spiritual/religious worldviews.
I've attempted, with little success, to broaden the discussion to encourage others to participate. The list is rather inactive at the moment and I will not again expend energy to revive a discussion that only one other person participates in; however, I will remain subscribed for the time being in hopes that there can be fostered a more diverse group. So, in answer to Lyn's very valid questions:

> Are there any "new age" connections with this group?
If pagan/wicca are "new age," the answer is yes, if only on an individual basis. As far as I can tell from what E-S participants say, these groups aren't organized on more than a local basis. They are trying to get a more national network going, but like many anarchic organizations (if that isn't an oxymoron), they've had little success.

> ... Is it mostly Native American or mostly "anglo"?
Since it's a brand new list (began May 1, 1995), I guess that depends on the diversity of the subscribers. At this point, it is probably better characterized as a diverse group that is currently overpopulated by
subscribers to a particular belief system. Apparently (I found this out when I did an archive search for my research), the list was created from a situation on ECOFEM in which those wishing to discuss matters spiritual were "silenced" by those on ECOFEM not wanting to have that kind of discussion on that list. Joy somebody took the initiative to start her own list and Earth-Spirit was born.

> My other question is if anyone knows about the elder > leading this "trek" ... William Commanda, "holder of the > Seven Fires Prophesy 'wampum belt'." What tribe is he?

This is one reason I forwarded the post. I figured if anyone can verify if
this organization is legit, NativeNetters can.

> My other reason for concern about the Earth Spirit "group" is the fact > that they chose the "HIDDEN" option, rather than showing up in > listings .... though that could go either way, I guess ... certainly
> if I were "starting" up a Native Spirituality "list", I wouldn't > want it listed at all, believing that unlisted is safer for> screening out the "insincere element".

Well, since it isn't a "native spirituality" list in an exclusive sense, I think any "hiddenness" in its presentation is merely due to the fact that it is only one month old. They are posting to usenet groups and I have encouraged them to try to attract as broad a diversity of participants as possible. I think the list is in desperate need of some "enlightenment."
If it doesn't start reflecting the vision of its stated mandate soon, I'll be bowing out. As I said, I'm getting a little tired of the jargon.
Thank you to Lyn for asking these questions and giving me an opportunity to explain this matter a little more fully. Even if you don't choose to subscribe, you can certainly browse the archives to get a sense of the conversations to date. If nothing else, you'll see why I'm trying to broaden the discussion to be more inclusive.
Peace and love to all,
[ I received a personal message from Jennifer Norris on this subject this morning which sheds a bit more light on the matter. In that message, Jennifer said that I have her permission to pass on all or part of the message, which I plan to do later today. I hope to be able to announce the availability of a file containing the information from the Sunbow 5 Web site which I mentioned in my article earlier today. --Gary ]"
[ This article consists of a portion of a message originally sent by Jennifer as personal e-mail to me. Since she suggested the idea of passing on the information it contains about the origins and direction
of the "Eco-Spirit" mailing list, which has been the subject of recent articles on NATIVE-L, and gives a bit more detail along the lines of what Roxanne said in her article, I am passing it on. Again, if any-
one wants to discuss this subject, as opposed to simply offering more information about the "Eco-Spirit" list (there's probably not a lot more to be said on that subject, though) or (more importantly, I think)
on the "'Sunbow 5' Walk for the Earth," please do so via the NATCHAT mailing list (""). Thanks. --Gary ]

...I am watching the postings on Native-L re EARTH_SPIRIT with interest. I have not actually joined the newsgroup yet ... I am concerned about a potential for "New Age-ism" on that list but at the same time I think it is important to clarify to some of those who may be ignorant that those who started the list do not intend it as a New Age - stealing-Native-culture list. It grew from eco-feminist list (ecofeminism is a philosophy which seeks to connect feminist views with a concern for the earth, seeing a natural connection between them). Many of us on that list were getting into a dilemma. For many, our primary sustaining and inspiring force in working to heal the Earth is our spirituality--however we personally define that.
We would discuss this in the list, and others would be annoyed and feel that we were bringing in spirituality/religon where it wasn't relevant or important. Or worse, we were saying you couldn't be an ecofeminist without having a non-patriarchal religious base and that we were preaching. They
wanted to talk about eco-feminism as a political and cultural philosophy, not about spirit. To others, this split was unnatural and counter to our own understanding of the connections between politics-sexism-racism-healing, etc. So the suggestion came up to start a new list that was explicitly open to discussing spirituality as it impacts our work to heal society's and the Earth's woes. The owner of the list is someone who is a member of the Church of All Worlds (CAW), which is one of the largest and most well-known Pagan churches in the world. It is an international organization. The listowner is a strong voice in that community, a contributer to _GreenEgg_, which is the CAW magazine that comes out quarterly and is pretty much *the* Pagan publication to read."

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2006, 02:55:51 pm »
Pt 2 of that letter, where that member defends mixing Native ceremonies and European paganism.

"Sometimes I get frustrated with Native people who tell those of European descent to "go look into your own Earth-based traditions". It seems when those of us who do look into them, and become members of Wiccan organiza-tions or the Church of All Worlds or other Pagan groups, there is a judgment upon us. As if we are trying to be New Age or copycats or are not legiti- mate. Paganism is the fastest-growing religion in the U.S. right now. It is the descendant of Earth-based spiritual traditions of Europe, which were largely descimated in the 16th century. We are trying to repair and recapture these traditions. There are many branches of Paganism---people who follow Celtic tradition, or Teutonic, or druidic, or have different interpretations of the above, etc. They are legitimate, beautiful traditions which are very much alive and are a source of integrity and strength to those who practice their rituals. Not surprisingly, the basis of many rituals are honoring the four directions and the four elements and creating a sacred circle in which to pray or make magic. This practice is found in many spritual schemas, largely (I think) because they are basic to the working of the world.
Yes, there are those out there who mix Pagan and Native American practices, without proper training in the latter (or former) and who have little respect for the powers that they are trying to summon. But for most of us Pagans, we see our path as our path, our way of connecting both to the Earth and to our ancestors. It is in this spirit that Earth-Spirit was created. Again, I do not know who belongs to the list and what the tenor of the dialogue is. Certainly, there are many Pagans who could use educating in
the politics of adopting others' spiritual practices. Perhaps there are many Native people who can learn to keep an open heart and suspend judgment for a moment on those who are "white" but who also practice Earth-based spirituality. It would seem that we are natural allies.
{feel free to re-post any of this ... if it seems relevant to the Earth- Spirit strain on native-l. I do feel it is important that more people understand what Paganism is, as distinct from people practicing "workshop"
or "new age" spirituality ... The list is one thing, that walk is another.}"

The symbol of the Sunbow 5 group, rainbows around trees.

At one point Dostou IDd as "Tom Dostou, Bear Chief, Midewewin Society, Wabanaki
Nation of Massachusetts,NAC"

He also claimed to be the "War Chief of the Algonkian Nation."

And "Abenaki/Quiquichan"

My own thoughts on this group is that it's well intentioned but naive pagans, working with some people who are good and some who are less than honest. Even Dostou doesn't seem to be doing this for money, perhaps for ego, which he's been accused of before. Maybe more like an Arthur Sonier? And the motive for the participants, at least on an unconscious level, strikes me as farily Nuagey. "I get to be a white guy fulfilling an Indian prophecy!"  

The acknowledgements has a long list of people involved, both Helpers and Walkers. Anyone recognize the names?
"Johnie (Standing Woman) and Bob Leverett, Delphine Redshirt, Jose Lucereo, Martin Gashweseoma, Betsy Stang, Robert Stang, Karen Fletcher Elizabeth Volpicelli, Bud Tackett, Kim Benedict, Wayquay, Rosemary Richmond, Ota Hora, Elsa Stamatopoulou, Lisa Gibson-McMahon, Deborah Muldow, Michael Zwiker, Kim Hazard, Frank Carpenter, Bob Staffordson, Evan Pritchard, Ms. Scott Morrison, Frank James, Jose Lucero, Ernest Benedict, Elaine Hopson, Ed Begley, Jr. Gary Trujillo, Beth Sampson, Tek and Arlene Nickerson, Jennifer Byington, Mary Ellen Wickum, Tonya Frichner, Bill Van Eron, Tom Benson, Phil Gonsalves, and Larry Garnia, Cynthia Walker, Tomela Luise, Cindy Kent, Joe Parker, Mark Anderson, Odette Wright, Blair Gilbert, Mary Kearns-Lawson, J.C. Lawson, Pat Freeman, Rev. Sam Wynn, Bob Mangem, Lotte Abraham, Sharon Bach, Johnie Leverett, Alvainia Bridges, Phil Kratzer, Shane Carraveo, Mary Lou Awiakta, Rodrigo Fuentes"

Delphine Redshirt writes on education. Trujillo runs NativeNet, and was initially skeptical. Gashweseoma is a Hopi IDing as a "Caretaker." And then there's Ed Begley Jr, actor.


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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2010, 02:32:32 am »
O.M.G. People, get a grip. William Commanda is from KitiganZibi (near Maniwaki). He is the real deal. He holds the true Wampum Belts. What other people do in his name is their fault or failing, but this man is the real deal. I would stand in front of him if need be to protect him from ignorant fools.


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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2010, 05:45:01 am »
hi patrick and welcome to our board. I need to reassure you no one here is questioning the legitimacy of Elder William. First the post is 5 years old. Its common for us post-ers when attaching a link to quote from the link and i think you'll see thats where those questions about Elder William came from, it wasn't from the post-er. Its Tom Dostou that concerns us more. Did you happen to read the link to the Odyssey of the 8th Fire? I did - the whole thing. In it, a young female walker charged Tom with sexual assault during the walk. As well a bastardized version of the 7th Fire Prophecy has made the internet rounds written by Tom  Dostou, you can tell his version instantly, in it he White-Bashes.  (the best version i found that matches closely what Elder William teaches can be found on Wikipedia > under "Seventh Fire Prophecy" i've heard the Prophecy straight from him, i've been in the Lodge with him.) I can vouch for a few names on that list as well. Frank Decontie, another wonderful Elder here in Canada also blessed the walkers as found on their webpage.


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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2010, 07:18:49 pm »
Hello, Apukjij,
Thank you for clearing that up, I was worried when I joined this group that I would be walking into a free-for-all witch-hunt. I am very relieved that William Commanda is not suspect of anything negative. So with that in mind, I will 'try' and tone down my reactions. [This will prove difficult later on as I am related to one of the alleged frauds in the forums, but I will put off posting about that until I can map out some complete thoughts on that]. I only recognized two names on the list above of walkers and supporters, one native, the other non-native; Ed Begley Jr., and Ernie Benedict. It doesn't surprise me that Ed begley Jr. would have interest because he has had interest in Native issues for a long time. I am interested in what Ernie Benedict would have had to say about the issues raised with this event. I have met him several times, he was a friend of my mother's (who was also a speaker at many an elder's gathering in her day). I remember him as a kind man and rigid man who would possibly have found the event more important than the individual participants. The last time I saw Ernie, was at an Elder's Gathering in Toronto (I think in 2000 or 2001) he was looking very frail then. My earlier memories of him were giving talks at a gathering for Elder's only at Dreamer's Rock in the mid 1980s, he spoke about our spiritual culture then (which I didn't understand at the time), in Toronto, he read verbatim a historical timeline frmo an overhead projector (which didn't do much for me because, I work with chronological history). He did mention though he is from a Wabunaki Head Family who emmigrated from the east coast hundreds of years ago when the Wabunaki confederacy included Mohawks. There were three Capital Cities at that time for the Confederacy, one of them was Kahnawake. There is a certain practicality that comes with older age that thankfully enables us to accept some unsavoury elements on the path to change. I have heard over the years of particular high-degree Mide who ask for $10,000 appearance fee; granted that alledgedly happens in non-native forums (because how many NDNs have that kind off money to throw around?) but let's think about it, in the Non-native world public speakers do not get out of bed without an appearance fee. Little in this modern world occurs without someone making money or money being funded by the same institutions which keep us in check. As I mentioned before I do not know any of the other names on the list, but I am willing to give Ernie the benefit of the doubt, although he deserves better for keeping his family history and inspiring thousands over his life.

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2010, 02:57:50 pm »
Hi Patrick,

could you go to the members introduction section and give us a short intro? You don't have to be to detailed.

Offline Smart Mule

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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2018, 02:03:20 am »
More on that the 8th Fire Gathering has turned into


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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2018, 07:13:14 pm »
Because Tom Dostou in mentioned in this thread I want to tuck this info in archived


Messagepar admin » Mer 14 Sep 2016 01:10
Who is Chief Tom Dostou alias Patrick Côté

Somebody ask me yesterday if I know Chief Tom Dostou . Chief of where, chief of what and chief of who I responded to that person.

I have kept silence for long enough, hoping someone would speak up, because I was once intimidated by this gentlemen. Now at my age , I no longer feel that way and I think I must respond now to this person question as I beleive this gentlemen is not what he claims to be.

Who is this man what is his real name ? Were was he born ? Which country does he come from ? Which First Nation communities does he come from as I heard him claiming to come from quite a few First Nations from Canada and United Stated depending wich country he resided and which First Nations citizens he was surrounded with even even claiming coming from Mont Joli Québec the town were my father was from . I sure would like to see his birth certificate and to know and who are and meet with is family members and relatives .

One think is for sure I did not know him as Tom Dostou but Patrick Côté then residing in Odanak, an Abenaki community near Pierreville in the province of Québec. He was involve with an Abenaki woman of that community at that time and I will not mention her name .

When I was the Executive Director of the Native Alliance of Québec in the mid 1980s , Patrick Côté all of a sudden showed up from no where at one of our meetings and made is way to become involved with the administrative région 3 of Trois rivières of our organisation providing services to Métis ans non Status Indians. He eventually made is way to become one of the executive leaders of this Region and to become an official members of the board of the directors of the Native Alliance of Québec and having access to regional fundings .

We give payment check for travelling expenses and honorarium for meeting attendance at that time to a person named Patrick Côté not Tom Dostou .

Far from being spiritual at the time Patrick Côté was also involved with other activities which cause the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to investigate at the main provincial office of the Native Alliance and they were looking for him. At the same time and to my great surprise Patrick Côté had disappeared from the map for quite few years with a come back as a spiritual leaders with a new name Tom Dostou or Tom D'astou . I was told he had left for the United States.

When I became the Directors of the Cultural Centres Programs at Northern and Indian Affairs and when I was in presence and travelling across Canada with William Commanda , a well know spiritual leader from the Algonkin Nation here in Canada I heard this name Tom Dostou. I was told he was an Elder involved with the the St- Onge twins and that he was leaving in Maniotenam among the Innu. I did not inquired of what he was doing at that time but I am sure people could find out.

I have seen him again for the first time at a youth gathering on the plains of Abram in Québec City in the early 1990s and he was introduced to me by the St -Onge twins and at my big surprise, as Elder Tom D'astou. I could not believe my eyes of what he was refered to and witnessing him now leading a sweat lodges ceremony with the twins on a military battle field, the plain of Abrams . Later I have seen him as being called an Elders around the Circle of all Nations here in Ottawa Canada and claiming to be a follower of William Commanda. Then I was told he organized some kind of a big walk across United States and collecting big amount of money using a Canadian Algonkin Elder William Commanda as the spiritual leader of that walk as if there was not enough prominent Elders in United States to lead that walk.

I remember one time his name was Tom D'astous like it is spell in Québec Canada . Ho well. Tom Dostou alias Patrick Côté and I wonder how many other alias .

He does now call himself a Chief and I wonder how he got this title? But like many other native people in Canada I sure would like to know which First Nations communities is native roots comes from. No ones seem to know. he does not seem to stay long enough at one place for people to know or find out.

Like he use to say when he finished speaking ," that is all I have to say ".
Claude Aubin
Métis et administrateur de ce site.

Tom Dostou Facebook

Offline Smart Mule

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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2018, 07:20:06 pm »
He came about his title as chief by stealing a headdress from William Commanda when he attended a meeting at Kitigan Zibi.

Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2019, 05:28:11 am » Seriously read this conversation in IM with me tonight from Tom Dostou. 🤣 Please tell me this guy is not whacked in the head? For a fuller account of who this Dostou fella is SEE: and for Thomas Snizek aka Tomo Woundedbear. As for who Dostou mentioned Al Carrol, just do a google search on that fella eh. I asked Dostou earlier this evening in FB, if he knew my mailing address and or to expect the Sheriff or Tonto to serve me with the summons and warrant? I didn't get an answer ...

They mention this group here:

So let them TRY to summon me, and then put out a warrant for me. They assume they have authority, when truthfully, they have none.

Offline Sparks

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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2019, 04:28:51 pm »

These three links yield "Not Found — Error 404". I can see from the "/.../" components that they are abbreviated the way Facebook does. They are clickable in Facebook, but you cannot copy them from there and expect them to work. You have to click them (open them) in Facebook and copy the complete URL from the address bar.

In addition, privacy settings on your Google Drive may prevent public viewing.

Offline Sparks

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Offline Karoniaa

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Re: Odyssey of the 8th Fire
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2021, 05:52:04 am »
Tom Dostou is as big a fraud as they come,  one of his kids had wrote and I will use her exact words in describing him
"My dad Tom is full of shit, is white as they come, he does not belong or is native at all, don't believe anything he says about what he claims about himself"  So, I need to go back and find that article where she speaks out.  He has a militant behavior, he talked about bringing guns to Canada through his connections in the states. Now I have known of this man since I first met him way back in 2000, his fraud of what he claimed was questioned by respected elders at a gathering, he could not answer but got angry and went ballistic on this elder.....from then on they were on to him and what he was doing, so he latched on to the St. Onge twins Omar and Leo.....since then that is who he associates this man has a long history of sexually abusing women......when we met Tom in Massachusetts he was married to a Japanese woman (he later divorced) she confided in us that he sexually abused her daughter.....he met another Japanese woman.....and the saga continues.....his other downfall was using these rich women for their money......and so he has burned many bridges along the way leaving a long line of abused women behind.....careful he is a con artist and has been in prison.....yes he is a jailbird from somewhere in the states, I could go on and on of many first hand stories of this fraud........proof is in the pudding.....but I need to find the links to share