General > Frauds
Blackwater Muskogee tribe
educatedindian:
--- Quote from: loudcrow on May 06, 2008, 02:23:32 pm ---1. Have you come to the conclusion Native Americans residing in
Europe cannot possibly be considered Ambassadors for their
people? Do you not think they "represent" their nations in Europe?
...
3. Do you think it's wrong for Native Americans living in Europe
to enlist the aid of European governments, leaders, etc. to pressure
the US/Canadian governments about Native American issues?
--- End quote ---
Momma P has been here quite a bit longer, so unless you were to check back through the archives, you probably would not be aware of one thing:
Some exploiters tell Europeans that they are official "ambassadors" of their tribes, and in some cases the tribes are themselves not real either. The Washitaws, for example. And some time ago, Annika reported an exploiter who passed himself off as a "tribal ambassador" in Sweden. Again, both of those happened some time ago.
If you're talking about NDNs being ambassadors in the same sense that all visitors are ambassadors when they travel or live abroad, then I see your point. But Larry Nichols is clearly not claiming to be that. If you mean an actual official post in an actual tribal govt, I have to say I've never heard of one, and don't think any of the tribes with fed recog have them, in Europe or anywhere else.
I realize some activists and activist groups do work with Europeans, urging them to pass resolutions through the European parliament or UN. I met some of those same people when I traveled over there myself. But again, I don't know of a single tribal govt with fed recog who has an official post with someone devoted to doing that.
Moma_porcupine:
zoi lightfoot
--- Quote ---Larry Nicholes does exist as does the Black water Band and many other notable non federaly recognized Bands whom the Indian Nations themselves recognize.
--- End quote ---
I think that is the most important point- whether their closest federally recognized relatives say "Yes this is a tribe". But I don't just mean a few eccentric individuals. When these unrecognized tribes are real , it is something almost every member of the federally recognized tribe acknowledges. If the Muskogee Blackwater band has this recognition it is probably legit. I'm just not sure it does .
--- Quote ---Tell me moma,is your query in regard to Larry Nicholes who has attempted to halt the shamastic progress of these two correctly discribed"pains in the ass" The Blackwater Band or the Billingtons themselves?
--- End quote ---
My query was about the Black water band .
--- Quote ---I raised this matter in my statement to the autonomous sgs,interest groups and charities last year.a statement which was on this site for some reason if memory serves me.
--- End quote ---
Yes I think that statement and some questions it raised are here;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0
Zoi i'm curious, as you have mentioned being a legal advisor ...are you actually a lawyer with a law degree and you are licenced to practice law ? Or do you just do some sort of free lance advocacy work ?
loudcrow
--- Quote ---1. Have you come to the conclusion Native Americans residing in
Europe cannot possibly be considered Ambassadors for their
people? Do you not think they "represent" their nations in Europe?
--- End quote ---
I don't agree that people of distanty ancestry (PODIAs) who are mostly non native are really "Native Americans", and I definently don't agree that people of distant ancestry who are mostly non native and have not been a part of a continuosly existing tribal community have a right to represent themselves as a Nation in Europe.
--- Quote ---2. I'm a bit confused about the link to the pictures of their tribal leaders.
Are we supposed to view the pictures and determine their ethnicity?
--- End quote ---
No, not in itself. It's just one clue.
Another major clue is here;
http://web.archive.org/web/20040804181648/theblackwaterband.tripod.com/id18.htm
--- Quote ---BLACKWATER BAND OF LOWER MVSKOKEES
During the removal of 1838, many American Indians had to hide to escape being sent to Oklahoma. Many tried to enter the population as mulatto, French and as black. Of these, many were taken in and helped by some of the white settlers and some were taken in and treated as slaves.
Many from Alabama and Georgia fled to Florida to hide in the deep woods and swamps. Not all who came to Florida went to the peninsular. Some stayed in the panhandle with friends and relatives that would hide them, and some simply survived in the wilderness.
As years passed, the white population did not fear the Indians as much and soon ignored them when they would see them. Some were lucky enough to find work and some lucky enough to gain a piece of property and farm. Soon, the whites began to intermarry again with the Indians as many had done before the removal.
Most of Indian descent tried to hide that fact and would not teach their children the old ways. They had to "BE WHITE" in order, or so they thought, to keep from being sent to Oklahoma. This belief continues on even today with many of Indian descent.
Many of us have learned of our heritage and we are trying to live as such. We practice the language and participate in many cultural activities. Some of us may have light hair and blue eyes, but we are Indian. We may not be 100% blood, but we all have proven our linage back to American Indians before the removal.
--- End quote ---
loudcrow
--- Quote ---3. Do you think it's wrong for Native Americans living in Europe
to enlist the aid of European governments, leaders, etc. to pressure
the US/Canadian governments about Native American issues?
--- End quote ---
I don't think it's wrong if the issues are truly issues that concern real American Indian people and real tribal Nations. I do think it is wrong if the issues being represented are the interests of people who are only of distant descent and are mostly non native. That would be one more instance of non native people displacing Native people and voices.
--- Quote ---4. What has made you come to the conclusion the Blackwater Band of
the Lower Muskokee are not Native American?
--- End quote ---
I haven't come to that conclusion -- though based on what I see, they look and sound like they are probably the same as many other groups of people with some possible distant ancestry who have got together and declared themselves a tribe.
I don't know any Native people on this side of the water, who support that sort of behavior. I'm sure there are always a few who support anything, but for the most part it just seems really presumptuous and disrespectful. More information on these "new " tribes and how they affect the real tribes is here;
http://www.cherokeephoenix.org/News/News.aspx?StoryID=2389
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0
Loud crow
--- Quote ---Your comment:
The Blackwater Muskogee have a reserve?
I'm assuming you are Canadian since Americans call them reservations or rez for short.
I didn't realize a tribe needed a reserve (reservation) in order to be authentic. I am
assuming you are referring to John "Blackbird" Summer's comment about his reserve.
--- End quote ---
I was quoting a statement made by what appears to be Larry Nichols, and I also thought it was odd an American would call it a reserve . Maybe I misunderstood who made the comment - but it did sound like it was Larry talking.
--- Quote ---I'm not sure what PODIA means. Could you define PODIA please?
--- End quote ---
People of Distant Indian Ancestry
loudcrow
--- Quote ---Larry Nichols had 4 lawsuits filed against him in Germany by Henry Reyna
because Larry Nichols had ruined Henry's reputation and wallet by saying he was
not Native American.
--- End quote ---
(continues...)
I don't know if these people have some Native ancestry , how much ancestry they have or if the Black Water Muskogee might deserve federal recognition. These isssues are complex and I don't think it is up to a German Court to decide these matters. I would like to know what the federally recognized Muskogee have to say as IMO they are the only rightful authorities on who constitutes a member of the Muskogee Nation. I don't see how whatever anyone does as a Native rights activist should have any bearing on whether they are Native or should be recognized as a tribe. That is a whole different issue .
Besides the fake Indian names and membership certificates , the only reason I have concerns about this group is that when non native people ( or PODIAS ) move into positions of authority they are not entitled to and take over the identities and displace real Native people, it confuses and undermines the recognition of real American Indian Nations. Just because some people look more credible than something that would be found in a circus side show, doesn't mean they are legit, and in fact, it is those who look legit who often do the most damage.
I find your acceptence of people claiming to be Cheifs and tribes and ambassadors to be puzzling when you are so offended by Tonya Billington . I am not saying i think what Tonya Billington is doing is OK, and she is obviously not who she tries to say she is, but as far as I can see, the claims made by the many groups like the Blackwater Muskogee - if they are not extremely well founded- do much more real damage to recognition and respect for tribal soveientythan the Billingtons ever will .
--- Quote ---How much credibility should be given to someone who does not identify themselves, does
a drive-by and offers no proof of his own claims?
--- End quote ---
I take everything posted here with a grain of salt, but from what I have seen at least 19 out of every 20 groups claiming to be a tribe that is just now coming out of hiding , are at best a bunch of presumptuous PODIAs . The evidence that mtDNA is providing seems to be showing that almost 9 out of 10 of the people who were told great great grandma was an Indian were told wrong , which probably means , on average, that about 9 out of 10 people claiming to be a PODIA are actually completely non native . More information can be found in the thread below.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1375.0
--- Quote ---Do Natives HAVE to be
state and/or federally recognized in order to be Native?
--- End quote ---
I feel a lot of sympathy for PODIAs and I think depending on family and community circumstances, it is possible for people to have only a drop of Native blood and for this to be an important part of who they are.
When PODIAs use this drop to support Native rights and the proper authority and leadership of the federally recognized, continuously existing tribes , I think thats great.
When they use this drop to try and reconstruct a culture they know only small parts of, or they use this drop to set themselves up as political entities or to discount and displace the authority of long standing First Nations leaders , I think this is an act of colonization on the part of people who are mostly non native and I think this is wrong.
Ya know the saying = it's not how big it is but what is done with it that counts ...
Crazy eagle
--- Quote ---I am genuinely curious Moma Porcupine as to your interest in the Blackwater Band, as to date I have not seen or heard of any fraudulent activities there in the US or Germany.
--- End quote ---
IMO claiming to be a Chief or ambassador of a Muskogee band that isn't recognized as such by the federally recognized Muskogee would be a fraudulent activitiy - though I am still not sure where the federally recognized Muskogee stand on this group. I also think non recognized groups claiming to be tribes giving out honourary memberships and Indian names in Europe comes pretty close to a being a fraudulent activity , but that is just my opinion.
--- Quote ---But you do seem to have an avid interest going on with them..is it idle curiousity or do you have information which pertains to this particular Nation and its people as I fail to see where this thread is going?
--- End quote ---
Well actually I see Zoi Lightfoot posting here , and she says she represents the IIC to the UN and this questionable Blackwater Muskogee band is a memebr of the IIC . As I believe these groups of PODIAs confuse and undermine recognition of real Native people and Nations , I am thinking this is something folks might want to consider...
Which is why I started the thread...
If you all live overseas maybe this is stuff you just haven't run across to the same degree people over here have ...
From some of the other thread I posted links to above you can see this is a general concern I have posted on many times before.
Sorry this is so long ...
zoi lightfoot:
Up until seven years ago when I began checking the paperwork of these so called 'Ambassadors' I would have agreed with educatedindians comments 100%.But sadly our Nations and their leadership do not require the permission nor do they require to notify anyone if they take the Sovereign position they name and nominate their own Ambassadors.
For every ten fakes there is a genuine Ambassador(mostly active are the Lakota Nation) with official tribal authorization in place to be recognized as such.Rosebud for instance has Melvin Custer Jordan in the Netherlands like him or loath him (he's a bit of a twinkie magnet) he's Rosebuds choice and unless you are from Rosebud,we cannot question that until the guy stuffs up.He's far from unique.
Moma,now to you,where in this post did it say(or any other) that I personaly represent the Blackwater Band?I represent ex pats and like it or not some members of that Clan are ex pat Indians.Second I've been a recognized attorney for over thirty five years and yes i am part of the vast intertribal legal team based at the UN. Tell me moma how come you get to ask confrontational questions about everyone else yet no one apparently is permitted to know anything about you?what Nation/Band are you from for instance.
zoi lightfoot:
Ps I am not British Moma I am just based here and spend as much time AT HOME as i do in europe,when the nations no longer have need of me then i go home that simple.I presume if folks spend time out here such as the indigenous working committee at the UN or IITC for instance then we are no longer 'in touch' and therefore unqualified to comment on anything? Interesting but naive in the extreeme
Moma_porcupine:
--- Quote ---Moma,now to you,where in this post did it say(or any other) that I personaly represent the Blackwater Band?
--- End quote ---
I think part of where I got that impression is here;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0
--- Quote ---Statement from Zoi Lightfoot - Director of Legal Affairs Treaty House UK
--- End quote ---
from the first post
Zoi Lightfoot
--- Quote ---Our Peoples overseas are not just a “few??? Indians scattered across Europe, the IIC represents approximately one eighth of our combined sovereign nations populous residing overseas
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Larry D. Nichols IIC member based in Germany.
--- End quote ---
Reply #2 on: November 02, 2007, 11:45:31 am »
crazyeagle
--- Quote ---OK..IIC stands for International Intertribal Community...this is merely another way of saying ex-pat natives
--- End quote ---
I think it has been mentioned befor that you represent the IIC and as the Blackwater band is part of the IIC that you represent them and people like them seems a logical conclusion. You yourself just said you represent people like and including the Blackwater Muskokee .
Zoi Lightfoot
--- Quote ---I represent ex pats and like it or not some members of that Clan are ex pat Indians
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Second I've been a recognized attorney for over thirty five years and yes i am part of the vast intertribal legal team based at the UN.
--- End quote ---
Is there any way people could verify that? Is there a website that lists you as a part of a law firm or private practice? When I do a search on your name , nothing comes up except your posts in NAFPS and your involvment in bringing awareness to the plight of Leonard Peltier.
--- Quote ---Tell me moma how come you get to ask confrontational questions about everyone else yet no one apparently is permitted to know anything about you?what Nation/Band are you from for instance.
--- End quote ---
I don't make any claims about myself so there is nothing that needs to be verified . I am careful to provide links so people can see if what I say about the issues is true , and people can find whatever might be of value in my own opinions, without knowing details of who I am or how I got my particular point of view. Lots of people here are anonymous and ask questions. Why do you only protest to that when it is people you support who are being asked the questions? If people have nothing to hide I doubt these questions about claims people make, would feel confrontational. I have been giving you the benifit of the doubt thinking maybe because you live overseas you just aren't aware of some of the issues with these so called tribes of PODIAs.
Is there a particular person on the federally recognized Muskogee tribal council people could contact to verify if they recognize the Blackwater band? Is there someone on the tribal council that could confirm that the federally recognized Muskogee support Larry Nichols to acting as an ambassador in Europe?
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