Author Topic: www.saponitown.com  (Read 44458 times)

Linda Carter

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2005, 04:38:37 am »
I would like to apologize for any offense that may have been given and thank you for the time you spent responding.  Clearly I have a lot to learn.  In the future we will be sticking to what we do best, genealogy and history research.  

We at Saponitown wish you all the best in your endeavors.  

Offline mikailtariq

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2005, 08:46:43 am »
I am attaching my message to this because it is also about the Saponi - Eastern Blackfoot.  I came here because the address at the contact button for this webpage doesn't work anymore.  Yahoo mail says educated_ndn@yahoo.com has been discontinued.  Here is the message I was trying to send to the poster of Burying "Digging for the Red Roots".  I found it in a Google search for Blackfoot and "Black Dutch".  

As Salaam Alaikum!

In your article, Burying "Digging for the Red Roots", you dismiss the existence of Blackfoot Cherokees and make the mistake of connecting Blackfoot Cherokees to the Western Blackfoot of the Rocky Mountain area of Idaho-Montana-Alberta etc. The Western Blackfoot are Algonquian in language, whereas the Eastern Blackfoot spoke Tutelo, a Siouan language. They were called Blackfoot because they dyed their moccasins black. The Eastern Blackfoot were principally the Saponi Siouan group from the Piedmont of Virginia. When they were driven out of there, they scattered and joined or formed other groups. Perhaps the largest group joined the Blacks (African-Americans) of the Southeast, there are many thousands of Blacks today with Blackfoot ancestry, which obviously would not be the Western Blackfoot. The second largest group joined the Cherokee and eventually lost their Siouan language and adopted the Iroquoian language of their hosts. Some elements scattered along the North Carolina border with Virginia and formed the groups now know as the Goinstown Indians, the Person County Indians and the Haliwa Indians (Halifax and Warren counties), now called the Haliwa-Saponi, and the Occaneechi or Occaneechi Saponi. Many went into the formation of the Melungeons, most of whom are part Eastern Blackfoot. Some were absorbed into white communities. Only the ones who joined the Cherokee are recognized as Indian by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Here is the statement on the Native American component of Melungeon ancestry, from "What Is a Melungeon".
The principal groups of Indians contributing to the Melungeons were the Siouans of the Virginian and North Carolina Piedmont (mainly the Saponi or Eastern Blackfoot), the Algonquians of the Coastal region of these states (Powhatan, Pamunkey, Nansemond, etc.), and the Appalachian tribes, Southern Iroquoian (Cherokee and Tuscarora) and the Yuchi (Yuchean language is related to the Siouan languages, but not considered close enough to actually be called Siouan). The Indians of the Coastal and Piedmont regions were the mixed groups that formed the original mixed race groups that became the Melungeons and several remnant groups which still identify themselves as Indian. Appalachian Indians were less mixed with Black and White, but they did not become involved with the Melungeons until the Melungeons had already formed and moved from the Virginia - North Carolina border in the Piedmont to the Appalachia area. The Cherokee particularly inter-married with the Graysville Melungeons of the Tennessee River Valley. The Saponi are probably the most important Indian element in most groups of Melungeons. As they broke up and scattered, they were generally known as Blackfoot. That is the name used for them in the Melungeons of Appalachia, the Cherokee and in the Black community. There are many Blackfoot descendants in all three of these groups.

Please correct your statement that there are no Blackfoot Cherokee, for there are thousands of them. Thank you.

As Salaam Alaikum!
Mikail Juma Tariq

Linda Carter

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2005, 04:41:17 pm »
Thank you for responding, Mikhail.  I would just like to add that with the hundreds of families I've heard from to date with the eastern Blackfoot ID, there are as many who have been categorized as "white," as there are those categorized as "black."  For example, there is no hint of African ancestry in my own family (not counting my children!).  We have four or five surnames in the family that may be involved, one of which lived near a place along the migration paths out of VA called Blackfoot Town ca. 1740.  Another line lived in a Blackfoot town in the midwest where Saponi descendants cluster.   In my opinion, it's an ancient name predating contact.  Tutelo for blackened foot is "ici asepa hiye."  The name of one of the tribes within what became known as the Saponi nation was corrupted into "Sissipaha."  We'd love to hear more about your own research, cousin.  Join us at our Saponitown site.

My apologies for taking this thread off topic.  

Scott Collins

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2005, 06:02:57 pm »
I would like to say that I apoligize to NAFPS for using the words "witch hunt" to describe your purpose or mission. I don't disagree with most of NAFPS purposes or goals. I do have questions about some of them and I should have perhaps addressed those questions to NAFPS first before seeking answers from Saponitown.

I will say again to Vance and to all concerned as I did at Saponitown that I apoligize if my questions or comments were taken in an offensive way or out of context. It was not my intent to offend or to have people precieve it as an attack on Vance or NAFPS. The intent was to ask questions and get clearification on the issues.

As you can see by Vances posting of my comments I have alot of questions concerning some of the issues.

To Vance I ask for your forgiveness if I have offended you or caused you hardship and apoligize for my laziness and ignorance. I am learning alot and still have much to learn about my heritage and Native America.

walking-soft

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2005, 10:59:51 pm »
Hmmmm??Thank you Linda and Collin for coming to this site. I do hope you have taken the time to read all the posting and all the research that we do on this site!! However I do have something to say about the apologies. A true heart felt apology consists of accepting responsibility for what is said or done. Words like, ""if I have offened", taken in an offensive way","out of context"," for any offense that MAY HAVE been given","it was not my intent" ect. are not taken responsibility for anything.

I took the time to read many postings on your site including the one you deleted concerning, "witch hunt" about the NAFPS and many attacks toward Vance throughout your site. There seems to be a lot of distension there and a one upsmanship, Vance asked to brainstorm and what I read was a long disertation by both of you and a lot of it gibberish and newage mingled with it all,I mean what was that all about?? I'm an intelligent person but had to sit back and say what in the world are they talking about??

Yes I am Cherokee and I do know my traditions and have been taught by Elders of the Eastern Band and  if they had been sitting by your side and heard all that you both were sayingyou would have been taken to task, that I am sure of. For me learning my history is also learning the traditions that come with it and no you do not change them to fit "our own little world".

Having said all that the final comment that was made was "brace yourself guys the NAFPS has been known to shred groups and I'm sure we'll be next but I think we can hold our own", what is it you think you have to defend?? Thats not how this site works but we do research those who take MY PEOPLE, the Cherokee and yours and exploit us , use fake ceramonies, sell "tribal Cards",proclaim themselves chiefs and begin there little cults and abuse and damage people, threaten them ect all in the name of Cherokee. There are very dangerous groups out there drawing in naive people who want to know thier roots, or to belong ,who are being abused, usedfor thier money, sexual abuse, and yes some will "just" disappear.

My prayers to Creator that we all can work together as a group with kindness and love and understanding, prayers sent on the scent of our sacred herbs taken to Creator on the wings of Eagle.    Joyce A.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2005, 01:12:55 am »
Thanks to Linda and Scott for being gracious enough, big enough, and open minded enough to reconsider their earlier words and apologize. I gladly accept them, and I welcome all of you here to NAFPS, as I would anyone else from your forum. Vance has always had a lot of good things to say about Saponitown.com. I hope anyone looking at this thread will follow it through to its conclusion so as not to get the wrong impression about your forum, so I'll add some notes to earlier posts.

About the alleged "Cherokee-Blackfoot":
I'll concede the possibility of groups that there may be groups once known as Blackfoot being further east. The problems with people claiming to be "Cherokee-Blackfoot" are:

Most seem think that's one tribe, not ancestors who had two tribal lineages.
Most seem to be basing the claim of Cherokee ancestry simply by picking one of the best known tribes.
Many Blacks seem to be automatically assuming Blackfoot somehow signifies Black/Indian ancestry automatically, as though it were a racial term.
And many claiming to be "Cherokee Blackfoot" don't seem to have a clue about anything closer to their possible heritage other than pan Indianism images.
Some sites:
http://www.native-languages.org/iaq18.htm

All kinds of eccentrics, to put it kindly, cluster around these claims.
http://yuweb.addr.com/archives/v62i8/features/edrice.html

Not to mention some pretty notorious frauds made that claim.
http://famous.adoption.com/famous/long-lance-buffalo-child.html

And of course "Mahir/Eagle Sun Walker" and his fraudulent claims as well.

Offline Vance_Hawkins

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2005, 01:31:15 am »
I am happy this is turning out as it is.

Scott, Linda -- I remember my mother talking about my dad's family saying, "Those Hawkinses never forgive nothin'! They hold grudges forever!" So every time somthing comes up, I  remember her saying that, and I want to prove her wrong. Things have changed, but I don't wanna be bitter or angry at anyone.

Vance




Offline Vance_Hawkins

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2005, 03:35:45 am »
Mikail Juma Tariq  --

you said --

whereas the Eastern Blackfoot spoke Tutelo, a Siouan language. They were called Blackfoot because they dyed their moccasins black.

reply --

Do you have any documentation if this? If you do it is very important.

you said --

When they were driven out of there, they scattered and joined or formed other groups. Perhaps the largest group joined the Blacks (African-Americans) of the Southeast, there are many thousands of Blacks today with Blackfoot ancestry,

reply --

same question -- what proof do you have of this?

you said --

The second largest group joined the Cherokee and eventually lost their Siouan language and adopted the Iroquoian language of their hosts.

reply --

it is very possible that when my Richey's married my Brown's and were living in Le Flore/Sequoyah Co., Ok in 1871 -- Cherokee married Piedmont-Siouan.  And they did NOT join te Cerokee as a group. There is no historical evidence any Piedmont Siouan band/tribe ever joined the Cherokee as a group that I am aware of, and I have looked into it quite a lot, especialy because of researching my family. I strongly suspect this is in error. If you can document it I have a Chickamauga history research group that would be very intrested in it. My pet peeve is fake/made up Cherokee history and this is largely why I came to NAFPS in the first place.

you said --

Only the ones who joined the Cherokee are recognized as Indian by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.  

reply --

There are records of tribes that were absorbed by the Cherokee and I there is no record that I am aware of, of a single group of Saponi being absorbed by the Cherokee. Perhaps some of the Catawba were  Saponi . . . Can you provide proof of this?

You said the Melungeons are descended from Siouan, Algonquin, and Iriquoian peoples mixed with White and Black. Where is your evidence? I've seen evidence of Siouan mostly, I've seen evidence of one Cherokee family (Cole) in the mix, and other "maybe's" -- maybe Tuscarora. I've heard a family or 2 that "might have" had a Black component.

When I speak of "Melungeons" I am referring to the specific geographic location generally considered their home -- from Scott Co in SW Va to Hancock Co in NE Tn basically -- those other areas you mentionight be regions where the ancestors of the Melungeons once lived, but the term itself originated in that region I mention. In other words, people from other places might have lived side by side with Melungeons and been Saponi, but they were never called Melungeons as were those from SW Va to NE Tn. The term was originally specific to that region only.

can you be more specific as to the nature of this evidence you imply exists?

you said --

Appalachian Indians were less mixed with Black and White, but they did not become involved with the Melungeons until the Melungeons had already formed and moved from the Virginia - North Carolina border in the Piedmont to the Appalachia area.

reply --

I never heard of a group called the "Appalachian Indians". Who is this?

you said --

The Cherokee particularly inter-married with the Graysville Melungeons of the Tennessee River Valley.

reply --

what evidence do you have? I read on Melungeon Heritage Association that the Cherokee Hicks and Fields families married into the Graysville Goins family -- but 2 families inter-marrying isn't that big of a deal. Were there others?

lastly, you said --

The Saponi are probably the most important Indian element in most groups of Melungeons.

reply --

I agree.

you said --

As they broke up and scattered, they were generally known as Blackfoot.

reply --

do you have proof of this? This is one of the "Holy Grails" of those researching this topic, any document with the word "Blackfoot".

you said --

That is the name used for them in the Melungeons of Appalachia, the Cherokee and in the Black community. There are many Blackfoot descendants in all three of these groups.  

reply --

I don't know many Cherokee that would agree with that, but i have heard the name used wrt Appalachia -- I am not sure of the Black community of Appalachia.

vance


Offline Vance_Hawkins

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2005, 11:21:37 am »
http://www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm

Al, Have you read of Linda's take on the research of the origin of the term "Eastern Blackfoot?" I think it is well written and very well migh be true.

She poses a lot of intresting points.

vance

Offline mikailtariq

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2005, 03:27:32 pm »
As Salaamu Alaikum!

Vance - You said "When I speak of "Melungeons" I am referring to the specific geographic location generally considered their home -- from Scott Co in SW Va to Hancock Co in NE Tn basically -- those other areas you mentionight be regions where the ancestors of the Melungeons once lived, but the term itself originated in that region I mention. In other words, people from other places might have lived side by side with Melungeons and been Saponi, but they were never called Melungeons as were those from SW Va to NE Tn. The term was originally specific to that region only. "
The Ridge-Only mentality of some tracing their ancestry to Newmans Ridge is truly horrible.  The Graysville Melungeons have long been known as Melungeons, they live in the lowlands of Hamilton, Roane and Rhea counties.  As far as I am concerned, our claim to the use of the Melungeon name is just as good as those on Newman's Ridge.  The way some of the Ridge-Onlies attack those of us who admit having some Black ancestry has alienated me to the point where I have little interest in this group and they are not who I mean when I say Melungeon.  
I use Melungeon as it is used in "What is a Melungeon".  "The original group in Henry and Patrick counties, Virginia, and Rockingham, Stokes and Surry counties, North Carolina, has been called the Goinstown Indians. As they moved west, in Surry, Yadkin, Wilkes, Alleghany and Ashe counties, they were called Melungeons. Some have always been called Melungeon, like the community in Hancock, Hawkins and Grainger counties of Tennessee and the one in Wise, Scott and Lee counties of Virginia and the one in Letcher county, Kentucky. The one in Person County, North Carolina, has been called the Person County Indians (they are somewhat organized under that name) and earlier the Cubans. The group in Rhea, Roane and Hamilton counties, Tennessee, are called the Goins locally, but have long been identified as Melungeons by people from the rest of Tennessee. The group in Magoffin and Floyd counties, Kentucky, and Highland county, Ohio, has been called the Magoffin County People in Kentucky and the Carmel Indians in Ohio, and have only recently been called Melungeons. The group in western Louisiana and adjacent Texas is known as the Redbones (not to be confused with the Red Bones of South Carolina) or the Louisiana Melungeons. The group in Gulf and Calhoun counties, Florida, was called Melungeon as long as they were identified as a separate group but was also known as the Dead Lake People."  The groups I am primarily interested in are the Goinstown Group of Henry, Patrick, Rockingham, Stokes and Surry Counties, VA and NC, The Graysville Melungeons of Hamilton, Roane and Rhea counties, TN, and the Texas-Louisiana Melungeons along the Sabine River.  
My great great grandmother was recorded as Cherokee for her marriage, but I do not believe she was Cherokee.  She lived in Roane county and was named Barnes, which is a Graysville Melungeon type name.  She died shortly after my great grandfather's birth, I do not know anything more about her or her family.  
The Nichols I talked to in Highlands County, Ohio, Carmel Melungeons or Carmel Indians, claimed recent Cherokee ancestry and they did look like they had Indian ancestry, which I have never seen in any other Melungeon community, including the Hancock-Hawkins-Grainger-Wise-Scott-Lee-Letcher counties, TN, Va and KY, group.  
I have talked to several people in the Black comunity of northeastern Florida (Jacksonville, etc.) who claimed Blackfoot ancestry.  They did not know what the term meant but I never heard that it meant part Black.  
Please distinguish between my statements and the quotes from "What is a Melungeon".  Appalachian Indian is from "What is a Melungeon", the sentence before explains it means the Yuchi, Tuscarora and Cherokee, it is used in a geographical sense in opposition to Piedmont and Coastal, three zones of Virginia.  Note that some writers contend that the Yuchi are the main Indian ancestors of the Melungeons, see Karlton Douglas, etc.  
Do see "What is a Melungeon" and the attached note on "The Original Melungeon Home Area" at
http://www.rossmusic.net/what_is_a_melungeon.htm
Mo Alaikum Salaam

Offline Vance_Hawkins

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2005, 12:28:29 am »
Maybe I misunderstood. I am  tired . . . I appologize.  I have ancestors that were in Scott Co., Va. I have read so many websites of made up Cherkee history and i have a pet peeve against people stating things as facts without showing a document to back it up. I think the same is true of some Melungeon websites. Some are good and some are not.

I live in Oklahoma. The earliest line of my family came here in 1828, latest in 1906.

vance

vance

Offline ItalLiving

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Re:I Wanna Help
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2005, 09:58:03 am »
Hello,

I also c a lot of fraud in spiritual teachings !!
I realy like your Forum but i dont like FRAUD and
Wannabees , So what can i do to help ?

Mitakuye oyasin
Mitakuye oyasin

Offline BlondeyeLaurie

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2006, 05:01:49 pm »
Mikailtariq...everyone....*waves* ...Hello to all from a  "newcomer" here. I found this forum on a Google search and noticed a few familiar names at this forum thread/link and read it through a few times and wanted to chime in/contribute to some measure in as much as it relates to my maternal ancetry.  The primary surnames for my maternal line are Nichols, Gibson, Cole, Perkins & Collins.  That said, my ancestors are in fact the very people that were called the "Magoffin Brown People" and the "Carmel Indians"..depending on where they regionally lived.  I never heard the term "Melungeon" until just over a year ago and was somewhat taken aback by it's usage to be most honest.  Our family story was that we were descended from the "Blue Eyed Cherokee"...whoever they may be, if in fact there is or was such a group.  I now feel strongly that it is less likely that my kin are Cherokee by tribal affiliation than they are some other tribal group or perhaps a mixture of a few.  I suspect that they were perhaps Saponi and/or Monocan to some measure but do not have proof of such.  My ancestors were truly the "poorest of the poor"...they relocated for employ and were tenant farmers...they did not own land so deeds or tax lists are just not in existance to any degree. There are no bibles or documented histories and tracing their lineage has been at best, cumbersome.  Some of my "kin" still reside in and near the Carmel , Highland County, OH area and too, some in Hardin County, also in Ohio.  I grew up in Ohio and remain here but visited KY often.  I do not "look the part" in many people's eyes but some family members are strikingly more NA looking. In 1966, the year of my birth there was an article that ran in the Lima news about my family in and around Hardin and Allen counties, titled "Excited Cherokees", which detailed how the US Govt. wanted to interceed and assist them as a group because of their living circumstances...I do not knwo if that "program" ever came to fruition, but there were, at the time, supposedly 144 family members places ona  list to recieve assistance through this government grant.  The use of the term "Cherokees" in describing them ethnically is interesting to me...were they , in fact Cherokees?...or was this term tossed errantly?  The Cherokee, as a tribe is perhaps the single most recognizable tribe, by name, so perhaps like many others they used the term analagously to describe any group of "Indians", or people of Native American descent.  Tossing a tribal term or "looking" Native American do not Native American make...I take exception to labellign people based on hwo they physically appear.  Do all "politicians" LOOK like one?  Do all "librarians" sport a unique look?  But of course not nor do all of us Carmel Indians look alike either.  One pointed, legal example of this is in our family birth certificates...some children of 2 specific parents have been labelled "black" while yet others "white"...and they had the SAME two parents!  This was not uncommon in my family.  Separating the wheat from the shaft is tricky for many, myself included...I do at times, identify with the Melungeons but as a term I find it simplistic and ill-suited at describing my maternal lineage.  As to the Carmel Indian designation...what does that really mean or imply?  What tribal affiliation can we best "fit" into?  Is there a designation for people of mixed ancestry who were once called the "Brown People of Magoffin"?  Historians and researchers and anthropologists know that we exist, but into which grouping do WE fall?  By which tribe are we included? It is quixotic to be called an Indian but to be labelled otherwise and demeaned for attempting to align with one specific group of Native people.  There is no litmus test for us to determine our origins tribally so for now...we, those that care and remain, must try and uncover the very thing that our ancestors, out of severe discrimination, tried to hide as an act of self-preservation.  I know we belong to a group...but which one or two or twelve? Perhaps we will forever be the "mixed bloods" from the Magoffin and Carmel settlements.  Best to all in your endeavors; blessings~~~Laurie

frederica

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2006, 08:41:21 pm »
Have you seen this article?  http://www.geocities.com/ourmelungeons/carmel.html    frederica

Offline BlondeyeLaurie

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Re: www.saponitown.com
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2007, 01:06:37 am »
Thank you yes, I have read that particular article...and too have waited for the "upcoming" articles, family group sheets, etc that they expected to contribute to their site/database.  I have tried researching any "remnant Shawnee" that my ancestors may have been members of as well.  Thank you for the reply...I'll keep census and document digging and forum hunting until hopefully, one day something will manifest and put some specific and concrete answers in front of me/us.  Blessings~~~Laurie