NAFPS Forum

General => Non-Frauds => Topic started by: kahtboosted on July 04, 2015, 05:43:04 pm

Title: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 04, 2015, 05:43:04 pm
http://www.bullshido.net/
this is not a site about spiritual frauds, but they have done similar work on occasion. They have investigated some of the fake and abusive Eastern (Asian) lineages/teachers. It is a forum mostly about martial arts, but they have looked into certain Taoist and Buddhist masters, lineages, etc (the connection here being that they often teach martial arts as at least a part of their lineage, and some teachers are rather dangerous. Some also practice medicine without licenses).

This may be useful or relevant to researchers here at NAFPS, simply because the new agers are beginning to mix eastern teachings with the bogus culture-raping 'shaman' stuff. There is already a well-known and wealthy taoist lineage now marketing a form of 'shamanism' which mixes celtic stuff with some appropriated Lakota medicine wheel stuff (taught by a known fraud). There are a few other examples I've seen of this new-age intermixing... and I'm sure we will be seeing more of it with the globalization of cross-cultural consumerism.
Such stuff is especially offensive to people with an authentic multi-cultural upbringing/background. The new age consumer mentality just has this tendency to cheapen multiple cultural traditions by making it all look 'universal' and interchangeable. For them, it isn't 'spiritual' to understand crucial things such as historical, social and cultural context, etc, so the new age sells people these offensive, simplistic, ignorant ideas about various traditions. Heck, even many anthropologists and other academics sell this same type of arrogant thinking, but thats a whole separate discussion....

[retitled thread- Al]
Title: Re: bullshido forums (perhaps useful resource), eastern-tradition frauds
Post by: Epiphany on July 04, 2015, 05:58:53 pm
The Bullshido forum is great, has helped with frauds like Gudni Gudnason here http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4115.msg34963#msg34963 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4115.msg34963#msg34963), Harley Reagan, Adrian Roman and others.

Another example of some of their relevant work: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2853.msg24347#msg24347 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2853.msg24347#msg24347)
Title: Re: bullshido forums (perhaps useful resource), eastern-tradition frauds
Post by: AClockworkWhite on July 04, 2015, 06:34:20 pm
NAFPS: New Asian Frauds and Plastic Sensei.
Title: Re: bullshido forums (perhaps useful resource), eastern-tradition frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 04, 2015, 08:59:07 pm
Piff- Good to see you guys are already using the site. And lol about the links about Native martial arts. I know of another example of a so-called 'native' martial arts school. I think they were in Canada, and they actually based all their forms on Korean martial arts, but claimed the moves were from 'Chippewa' and others. Will have to look them up, I'm sure theyll be discussed here or on bullshido, lol.

Pretendstobe1/8th- lol. To be honest, 'plastic sensei' and 'mcdojos' are a dime a dozen, cant even keep track of them. But hey, the consumerist amerikkkan parents gotta have something to keep their consumerist kids busy while they are at their consumer-culture yoga class. I'm mostly just concerned with spreading info on some of the more dangerous fake teachers, or the ones who start ripping off other cultures and mixing whatever traditions they like to claim into it.
Title: Re: bullshido forums (perhaps useful resource), eastern-tradition frauds
Post by: Autumn on July 04, 2015, 10:09:53 pm
NAFPS: New Asian Frauds and Plastic Sensei.

Good one, PTB1/8!  I had to look "sensei" up.  Plastic teachers -- there are plenty of those for sure.

I am not saying that this guy is one, but he looks sort of, well, something.
Title: Re: bullshido forums (perhaps useful resource), eastern-tradition frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 05, 2015, 12:32:17 am
Well, there are a lot of silly folks in the martial arts world. But by nature, the spirit of martial arts goes against poking fun at people.

Sensei is also not a universal term, although white people love to apply it to every martial art. Having practice martial arts but no Japanese martial arts, I have countless times have had to see white people be educated that no, we dont have senseis and dojos. When a white person walks into the Korean or Chinese martial arts school, calling the place a dojo, and asking for the sensei, it is a rather common scene, but still reflects their ignorance of that particular culture in question. Most get all huffy the first time you correct them also, lol.
Title: Re: bullshido forums (perhaps useful resource), eastern-tradition frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 05, 2015, 12:52:29 am
I cant speak on the silly looking sensei you posted a picture of, but he seems dubious/fake, and here the is the bullshido thread poking fun at him. http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19891

I've seen some other silly looking white guys in martial arts, lol. But I have no reason to poke fun at them. Not unless they are harming people or misrepresenting lineages/cultures/etc. Otherwise, they can just be their silly self with their silly students and I won't mind. lol.
Title: Re: bullshido forums (perhaps useful resource), eastern-tradition frauds
Post by: Autumn on July 05, 2015, 12:59:38 am
Well, there are a lot of silly folks in the martial arts world. But by nature, the spirit of martial arts goes against poking fun at people.

Sensei is also not a universal term, although white people love to apply it to every martial art. Having practice martial arts but no Japanese martial arts, I have countless times have had to see white people be educated that no, we dont have senseis and dojos. When a white person walks into the Korean or Chinese martial arts school, calling the place a dojo, and asking for the sensei, it is a rather common scene, but still reflects their ignorance of that particular culture in question. Most get all huffy the first time you correct them also, lol.
(My bolding)

Oops!  I have never done any martial arts so I guess I am exempt.

The comments at Bushido at the link you provided are pretty funny though.
Title: Re: bullshido forums (perhaps useful resource), eastern-tradition frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 05, 2015, 01:14:00 am
well the martial arts world has it share of silly people, that's for darn sure. You'd think maybe you seen it all when you read a forum like this and hear about all the new age behavior. But nope, sometimes the martial arts can have just as much silliness.

But in all honesty, people who practice martial arts honestly, and who respect the traditional philosophies, usually tend to be pretty grounded and down-to-earth people. Some of the arts are really more like moving forms of meditation and focusing on balance, those sort of thing. Ofcourse there are branches which are more focused on other goals, and sometimes it gets pretty out there with certain behaviors or the claims some make.
Title: Re: bullshido forums (perhaps useful resource), eastern-tradition frauds
Post by: AClockworkWhite on July 05, 2015, 04:14:47 am
You guys ever run across this guy George J. Lépine who does that Okichitaw stuff? I was wondering if he's legit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okichitaw
Title: Re: bullshido forums (perhaps useful resource), eastern-tradition frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 05, 2015, 04:24:26 pm
I think these are one of the groups I saw before which I was thinking of.

I will check out bullshido before making much comments on it. I'd prefer to hear comments from people among the tribes that they claim their moves are from. As we know, there are no "Native Martial Arts". So restructuring some Korean forms and then giving the practices names like "four directions medicine wheel teachings" and the "seven grandfather teachings" tends to just look like "Native" written all over an Asian martial art.

They are not the first or the last. There are a few different incidents of people selling or claiming to offering Native American martial arts. The very concept is made up though. Whatever fighting skills various tribes had traditionally, they are nothing like any Asian martial arts system, and there is no relation enough to just try to make the moves interchangeable. But if they arent hurting anybody, and they might be promoting drugfree activity among the youth, we have to simply assess to what degree or level of damage are these people either appropriating or misrepresenting. Personally, I'd never stick around for even a lesson if somebody was telling me they teach Native martial arts. It'd register in my mind the same way as "hey lets go hang out in my tiedied sweatlodge' would sound to me.
Title: Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
Post by: educatedindian on July 05, 2015, 08:17:51 pm
Move to Non Frauds and retitled the thread slightly. Bullshido has long seemed to be honest people dedicated to these arts, and fed up with the phonies and hustlers.

I guess this thread should also include supposed claims of Native martial arts. Like Kaht said, I haven't found anything I'd call definitive. We have a forum with many active NDN participants, and thousands of visitors. Can anyone think of any genuine so called Native martial arts?

I was asked some years ago about a claim of Apache martial arts. No such thing I know of. I imagine just about every tribe had their own versions of boxing (contrary to the silliness in old films like Little Big Man) wrestling, knife, hatchet, and club fighting. And there's sure plenty of Native vets. Hard to imagine none of them ever brought it into the service.

Should we start a thread on claims of NMA, or include it here? Found these claims so far in a brief search:
Isuna Nika-Comanche
Lua
Mau Rakau
Pahi
Lima Lama-Kahuna
Rumi Maki-Peru
Kalapalo Wrestling-Brazil

Okichitaw seems at least mixed with Asian styles. But its creator admits it's mixed, works with elders, and doesn't seem motivated by money.
Title: Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 05, 2015, 11:03:36 pm
I mostly agree, and think there really isnt any harm since they're being honest about it, and it may even be a positive thing for youth. But the wiki says it has been recognized officially as an 'Indigenous Canadian martial art’. That’s really kinda bs if he drew from Korean martial arts to structure it. It’s an MMA (mixed martial arts) system. NDNs dont have any structured/organized MA systems that I know of (and if there is one maybe he should have drawn from it instead of Korean arts to organize it, if it is really about cultural preservation. Afterall, Korea is a completely different continent with different philosophical/cultural influences and a different history from NDN tribal cultures).

The art itself may be a good thing for some folks.
I am Korean-American (mother is Korean) and also have studied the martial arts he drew from (Judo, HKD, TKD). Everyday some guy ‘invents' a ‘new martial art’ out of these different arts mixed together, so I guess their isnt much harm in him doing it with NDN fighting moves and teachings mixed in.
Title: Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 05, 2015, 11:07:34 pm
edit for previous post: meant to write "Korea is on a completely different continent..."
Title: Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 05, 2015, 11:15:05 pm
on a different note, I do think it's pretty cool that it was the Korean Grandmaster who encouraged him to preserve his culture's fighting arts he had learned. And that his involvement in Korean martial arts was able to help him work toward that goal (however he went about it). Right on, about that part! lol.
Title: Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
Post by: AClockworkWhite on July 06, 2015, 03:47:21 am
I knew it was mixed, he made no secret of it (which I respect). So many martial arts are hybrids and mixed and updated and adapted that this isn't a big deal except in certain circles inside certain disciplines, and those are usually due to ceremonial aspects of the art. So, IMO, the vids seem to depict a legit commitment to the practice, I just was hoping he is legit FN. Thx to all for the input. And I agree with many of the sentiments regarding the positivity of Okichitaw's existence and some of the instances surrounding it. I actually thought I might contact him at a later point for a youth program I want to eventually start for my tribe. A few of us are planning to create a traditional community in our old tribal home area and we want to involve the youth based on some old practices with developing our boys and girls/young men and women for future service to the tribe. I was looking for something like that to add  to the physical activity program. It would be alongside traditionally strong tribal activities like hiking, horse-riding, cross-country running, swimming, etc. for my part of the program. (I would also be partly in charge of initial training of our young gardeners and farmers, another strong tradition in my tribe.) What I am not interested in is adding anything explicitly Cree per se, as it isn't my tribe or tradition, but Lepine's system is at least Native-oriented and thus a potential attractor for the attempt at getting it funded.
Title: Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 06, 2015, 02:29:04 pm
I imagine just about every tribe had their own versions of boxing (contrary to the silliness in old films like Little Big Man) wrestling, knife, hatchet, and club fighting. And there's sure plenty of Native vets. Hard to imagine none of them ever brought it into the service.

Should we start a thread on claims of NMA, or include it here? Found these claims so far in a brief search:
Isuna Nika-Comanche
Lua
Mau Rakau
Pahi
Lima Lama-Kahuna
Rumi Maki-Peru
Kalapalo Wrestling-Brazil

Okichitaw seems at least mixed with Asian styles. But its creator admits it's mixed, works with elders, and doesn't seem motivated by money.

I think the point about boxing is worth looking into. If nothing else, an interesting topic for research and inquiry.
We could investigate the rest of the Native MA claims too. Mostly I'm concerned with the folks who are dangerous or who misrepresent new age stuff as traditional teachings. When it comes to outright 'fake' martial arts, its nearly impossible to keep track because everyday somebody invents a new one. And we have seen some false claims of Native MA already, so i tend to be skeptical when I hear about such a concept.
MA are not only fighting styles, but complete systems with a form of etiquette and also having accompanying philosophical teachings. This is part of why I'm not as interested practicing these newer 'hybrid' mixed martial arts that were recently constructed by mixing styles. However, if folks such as Lepine could not have very well preserved their cultural fighting skills without the aid of an Asian MA structure style, then it is better that he did what he had to do to preserve it and make it more 'relevant' to modern/popular MA schools structure, than to have allowed the kills to dissapear.
Title: Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
Post by: kahtboosted on July 06, 2015, 02:45:16 pm
I knew it was mixed, he made no secret of it (which I respect). So many martial arts are hybrids and mixed and updated and adapted that this isn't a big deal except in certain circles inside certain disciplines, and those are usually due to ceremonial aspects of the art. So, IMO, the vids seem to depict a legit commitment to the practice, I just was hoping he is legit FN. Thx to all for the input. And I agree with many of the sentiments regarding the positivity of Okichitaw's existence and some of the instances surrounding it. I actually thought I might contact him at a later point for a youth program I want to eventually start for my tribe. A few of us are planning to create a traditional community in our old tribal home area and we want to involve the youth based on some old practices with developing our boys and girls/young men and women for future service to the tribe. I was looking for something like that to add  to the physical activity program. It would be alongside traditionally strong tribal activities like hiking, horse-riding, cross-country running, swimming, etc. for my part of the program. (I would also be partly in charge of initial training of our young gardeners and farmers, another strong tradition in my tribe.) What I am not interested in is adding anything explicitly Cree per se, as it isn't my tribe or tradition, but Lepine's system is at least Native-oriented and thus a potential attractor for the attempt at getting it funded.

This seems it could be a pretty positive use of the martial art, a good thing for the youth too. I'd like to see thoughts from people from relevant tribes or any NDN martial artists.

While I don't know much about Okichitaw itself, the Asian arts which Lepine drew from, are pretty good for young people. In addition to the self-defense and exercise, the traditional teachers of these arts promote teachings about etiquette, respecting elders, etc. I do not study those 3 arts anymore, but when I was younger I trained with a school run by grandmaster who taught all 3 (TKD, HKD, and Judo). There was a whole code of conduct involved. For example, you had to say 'sir' and 'mam' to adults (even outside of the martial arts class, it applied to school and everything), be considerate of elderly who need help, and if any student were reported to be a bully (like at school etc), the teacher would kick them out of the class. I thought these teachings were kind of silly or overbearing when I was young, and now I am thankful that I was exposed to such good teachings looking back on it.
In order to pass a promotion, it wasn't just memorizing the moves. One had to recite the values and the code of conduct, etc. Furthermore, to succeed to blackbelt level, one had to demonstrate these decent traits over their years of studying the martial arts.

I personally like those traditional values and etiquette, and for that reason I'm not a big fan of the mixed systems. There are many schools now that mostly cater to busy and demanding parents with little brat white kids (some of whom use the fighting skills to bully kids at school, brag, etc). I would hope some of the good values are preserved within Lepine's system. It has been my experience that some MMA folks have a condescending view toward traditional teachings, and one can see that attitude on MMA boards like bullshido at times. Lepine's system may have respect for it though.
My point is just that you gotta find good teacher for the kids. Its really a shame that when you look at the average 'mcdojo', the sugar-drugged little devil white kids haven't even been taught basic traditional etiquette and don't even know how to do basic things like take off their shoes, bow to the teacher and flag when they enter the school, etc. If you tried to teach them that stuff, theyd probably mock it because white people raise their kids to be that way.
Title: Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
Post by: educatedindian on July 06, 2015, 10:55:17 pm
Isuna Nika-Comanche
Bullshido forum seems skeptical, but nothing definitive.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8659
Randall Brown in CO claimed to have been taught it by "Wind Painter."
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60427&page=3
But on his website he no longer claims that.
http://www.akumu.com/inaboutus.html
Not much else out there besides his old claims.

Lua-Polynesian and Hawaiian. This article mentioned a number of famous figures and sources, and also their boxing.
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/martial-arts-history/general-martial-arts-history/discover-lua-hawaii%E2%80%99s-martial-art/

Mau Rakau- Maori hand weapons fighting.
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/mau-rakau-maori-use-of-weaponry/page-1
If you've seen Once Were Warriors, that film shows weapons training being used to instill discipline in youths in reform schools.

Lima Lama- Samoan, founded by a former royal family member.
http://www.limalama.net/
Mixed.
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/category/lima-lama/

Rumi Maki-Peruvian NDN allegedly from the Incans.
http://www.rumimaki.com/faq.htm
Bullshido didn't think much of it.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62414
There are Peruvians in the US trying to promote it.
http://rumi-maki-martial-arts.tripod.com/narma/

Kalapalo Wrestling-Brazil, Amazonian NDN.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007r6ch
Bullshido pointed out the program tried to make them seem primitive and portrayed the culture wrongly, even altering subtitle translations.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60847&page=8
Title: Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
Post by: AClockworkWhite on July 07, 2015, 12:18:02 am
Comanche scout training... Riiiiiight. One guy says he's a descendant of Cochise's medicine man. LOL