NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: Tsisqua on December 22, 2007, 11:08:58 pm

Title: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on December 22, 2007, 11:08:58 pm
 Many of my Native friends have recently emailed this site with regards to what I am about to post, yet I feel the need to post here also as we have heard no word back.

I wish to draw attention to a web site named Tribal America. (TribalAmerica.com). This site started off as a Native dating site, which recently turned into an apparent Native American Unity site.

The issue here, is the owners/overseers of this site. Chief pappy, a self proclaimed Chief, is from India, not in the least Native American although he takes great pleasure in appearing on webcam wearing an eagle feather in a headband, and has no trouble taking money from Native people.

This site is also overseen by two white women who claim to be part Native, women who use this site as their own personal playground to Native bash if they are not getting their own way.Another one of Chief Pappy's many women is an Albanian woman who shows herself on webcam waving around feathers, chanting etc etc. This site is 'wannabe' central.

One of the many problems here are the strange ethics on which their chat site is run. White people are permitted to abuse Native people, taunt them, insult them etc, while these 'admin' look on. The reasoning for this, is these white people are friends of Admin

Native people are openly being abused here, and are being charged for the honor....I of course use the word honor through gritted teeth.

Something has to be done here, the site is almost 75% white people all claiming to be Native, they are running around driving out real Native people, and if Native people dare to complain in open forum, the postings are removed and the members speaking the truths are banned.

I have all forum postings of late which were removed regarding the recent troubles here with Native people speaking out against the fraud, lies and corruption going on within this site against Native people and will be happy to provide anyone with these if necessary.

What can be done? How can this man and his women followers be stopped?
This site has been left to continue in this way for too long.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: educatedindian on December 23, 2007, 03:28:29 pm
I haven't gotten any email from anyone about this site. Has anyone else?

I took a look at the site. Looking at cached material they deleted, it seems there was a lot of criticism of the site's owners and admins, esp for how they encourage East Indians to come to the site, and mislead both them and Natives.

Much of the site makes it obvious that it's run by people who are not NDN. Nothing Nuage, but a lot of vague "wisdom of the Indian" tribe never named material that sounds like it was written in 1920.

Do you know the actual name of the site's owner, "Chief Pappy"? The name is itself deceptive, like he's trying to confuse people into thinking he's Chief Pappy Hicks of the Texas Cherokee.

My advice is that you use the tactics typically used to go after deceptively run businesses. Unlike the Nuage frauds we typically deal with, this group can't hide behind people who don't understand the 1st Amendment.

Business law is not my field at all. All I can suggest is that you start looking at the laws to see what can be done.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=deceptive+trade+practices&btnG=Google+Search

Also, try to spread the word as much as possible. Post the truth about "Chief Pappy" in as many places as possible and it will hit him in the pocketbook.

Anyone else have suggestions?
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on December 23, 2007, 10:44:39 pm
Yes the man who owns the site is named Raj Gulati
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: educatedindian on January 01, 2008, 05:36:05 pm
On Indianz they turned up these sites about Gulati.

http://gulati.com/
http://kpigov.com/
http://armydevices.com/about.html
http://gulati.com/cgi-bin/newposting.pl?loginid=&sk=&function=myresponses&posterid=489

This is disturbing.

-----
For future internet related projects, Tribal America Inc owns the following domain names: tribalamerica.com tribalamerica.net tribalamerica.org tribalancestry.com tribalangels.com tribalbulletin.com tribalchildren.com tribalcooking.com tribalcounselor.com tribalcountry.com tribaldirectory.com tribaldoctor.com tribalfunding.com tribalgateway.com tribalgreetings.com tribalheadstart.com tribalhealer.com tribalhumor.com triballobby.com tribalmusicstore.com tribalnewsnetwork.com tribalpower.com tribalprayers.com tribalsingles.com tribaltradingpost.com tribaluniversity.com tribalvendor.com nativecounselor.com nativecountrystore.com nativelobby.com nativemusicstore.com.

----
And this:

"Members can apply to be recognized as Tribal Elders. A Tribal Elder on this network is not an age designation but someone who is committed to helping native american brothers and sisters with their issues or questions using our tribal angels section of the forums. An approved Tribal Elder can post responses to questions asked, and may also choose to be contacted directly as needed.

To be considered for being accepted as a Tribal Elder on Tribal America, please send an e-mail with your full contact information, your member id #, and your background to Chief Pappy at .

Tribal Elders
162663 489 47103

If you are an approved Tribal Elder Member, you will be able to click the image below to go to the Tribal Angels response center."

There's a suggestion box, but it's heavily censored. Seems like quite a few NDNs spoke out on the forum itself also, but Gulati has gone to a great deal of trouble to hide them. There's also lots of twinkies complaining about negativity.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Ganieda on January 02, 2008, 12:23:43 am
You might not be able to stop these people, but there is something that members can do.  First of all, quit the group, change your id & e-mail if you have to.  Put "block addresses" on any e-mail addies the group has and then go to "Tools", "Internet Options", "Security", Restricted Sites".... and add each and everyone of these domains to that list.  Sometimes, taking the bottom out of an organization will bring the whole thing down.  If not, then at least the people who have quit will no longer be allowing that group to hurt them.  Then go after those high and might mucky-mucks and take them down.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on January 02, 2008, 01:25:06 am
Everything that was posted in forum regarding the abuse that takes place there... how Chief Pappy allows the teens/youths to be abused by drunk white men (since they donate heavily to his site this is turned a blind eye to by him and his 'women')...how he takes money from members....how Admin abuse members and permit their friends to also abuse natives openly...and much more...was all posted in forum...Chief Pappy removed everything...all words of truth were removed as his members were beginning to question his ethics. Now his Forum is closed....he is clearly running scared....no submissions are permitted. This man has also recently gone into hiding...much money was raised for this site...and none of it can be accounted for. There are many things not quite right about Tribalamerica, the more you dig.....the worse it all looks.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: educatedindian on January 02, 2008, 03:44:40 pm
Did anyone at that site save their posts somewhere else, once they realized Gulati was deleting anything he didn't like?

Also if he was raising funds under the guise of this being some kind of cause or nonprofit site, and the funds have disappeared, I think the IRS would be very interested in finding out about it. Falsely claiming to be a charitable group, or failing to pay taxes on unreported income, both of those get the IRS involved very quickly.

And if you mean what I think you do about youths being abused, if they were underage, that's something the local DA and police should be alerted to, quick.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: frederica on January 02, 2008, 07:29:11 pm
The IRS would be interested even if he was collecting money {donations} and not claiming it on his Tax, even he is not considered non-profit it would be considered income. Problem is you have to prove it.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on January 03, 2008, 01:29:27 pm
Yes, I have most of the forum postings saved in my files, also all email files concerning TA, management, monies raised and the abuse issues, they are available if anyone requires them.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: frederica on January 03, 2008, 10:53:43 pm
The only time I have ever heard of this site was recentlly when someone posted that Brooke Medicine Shield was on it making a statement about a situtation on E-Bay. That in itself says a lot. Never looked at it until now. But it looks like a business. If they are collecting money for charities, you need to know which ones and if these charities ever received any donations. If they are NOT a non-profit they do not have to give receipts at the end of the year. You have to narrow your field, you cannot deal with abuse put to another person, they have to do that. That's about all I can tell you.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: RunningQuail on January 25, 2008, 04:06:58 am
O'siyo, I would like to clear up a couple of things that Tsisqua has posted on this forum about TribalAmerica.com.  First let me introduce myself.  I am part Cherokee and have been a member of TribalAmerica for over 5 years.  I also am a Chat Administrator and Administrator of Operations on TribalAmerica.  As I stated...I am part cherokee,not white.  Our other Administrator of chat is part Choctaw,not white.  Tsisqua knows this.  For all purposes in this post TribalAmerica will be called TS.  TS does not require a membership fee as it was decided that we wanted all our Native Brothers and Sisters to be able to members of our site, free of charge.  There are not big amounts of money missing as is claimed by Tsisqua.  We do accept donations and these are used to keep our site running.  The owner Raj Gulati is East Indian and has never claimed not to be.  Anyone can clearly tell from his name he is not Native American.  Our members voted to give Mr. Gulati the "Honorary title only" of Chief.  This was decided for a number of reasons. One of those reasons was because of his committment to keep TS running and providing a place where all our Native Brothers and Sisters, be they full blood or not, could meet and discuss issues important to all Natives.  Mr.Gulati has been using his own funds to run TS and now the donations help. as is right. Another reason that this title was given to him is this..........Here is a man who is not native, but one who realizes how important Native Americans are. He has great respect for Natives and stongly feels we have much to teach the world and our voices must be heard.  He who has provided a site where our Native Brothers and Sisters can promote their crafts, etc free of charge.  He has provided a site where Native owned and ran businesses can advertise their products free of charge.  He gets no monetary gain from TS, but rather gets a personnel reward knowing he is doing something to help our causes. All this , I believe, says alot about the man and why he was given that title only.  As far as Mr. Gulati going into hiding, well that is so aburd it is hard to believe Tsisqua stated it. Our forums are not closed as anyone can see if they visit TS.  Tsisqua was a member of TS and chose to leave.  When she chose to leave we, TS, started getting alot of posts in our forums from her friends about this.  And as people can sometimes be, they were pretty nasty postings.  We, TS , allowed these postings for quite sometime.  We did this because we do believe all voices are important although at times they can be very untrue.  After we felt all had been said and getting complaints about the tone of these messages from our members, we removed them from the forums.  So in this case, after a time they were censored or removed if you like.  In our chat room we do not allow people to be abused and try to make it a very safe place to chat.  We do not as was stated,"Native Bash."  We do not and have not had an Albanian women doing anything with feathers.  LOL White bloods are not permitted to abuse natives.  When we are made aware of a situation as stated above, we take appropriate action to stop it. Our members are not 75% white bloods.  The majority are Native Americans.  We have non natives on our site as friends.  We allow this as to promote learning and better understanding of our traditions and beliefs. Whatever reason Tsisqua has for posting what she has are her own and she owns them.  I have posted this to clear up statements that have been made about TS and Mr. Gulati and because of the great respect I have for him and TribalAmerica.  Know I realize that Tsisqua can post a response to all that has been said and we could go on and on about who is right or wrong, but this is not what I will be doing.  TribalAmerica stands strong in it's beliefs and it's endeavors to help Natives and has weathered storms before and survived and became stronger for it.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: educatedindian on January 25, 2008, 01:32:59 pm
Tsiqua, could you repost at least some of the posts that were deleted at that forum so we can judge for ourselves if they deleted "nastiness" or simply any criticism?

RQ, there are some questions I'd like to ask you. Much of that site does not seem to be New Age (though some of the people are). Instead it seems like there's a lot of very old "wisdom of the Indians" nonsense that seems like it was written in the 1920s or even before.

As I posted before, a couple things disturb me about the site:

Gulati buying up dozens of domain names, such as tribalhealer.com or tribalfunding.com. I don't see any reason for this except looking to make money by reselling them.

People being able to apply to be "tribal elders" at the site. That is not your right. It belongs to people of a tribe to say who elders are.

And yes, calling a non-Native a "chief" is offensive on a couple levels. Again, it's like something out of 1920.

How did anyone decide to call him Pappy also? That invites confusion with the real Chief Pappy, Pappy Hicks of the Texas Cherokee.

There are also literally dozens of good places for NDNs to meet and discuss.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on January 25, 2008, 08:25:11 pm
Most certainly, here are some postings I have in my own files of which you can judge for yourselves, also there are many other members who also left TA, of whom have many more postings that they will be happy to provide if need be.
All postings were removed from TribalAmerica almost as soon as they were put there, and incidently TA Forum have been locked to members posting for sometime now, despite false claims. They have been locked since these postings were removed.
I have read RQ's claims in disgust, but I will allow her to speak her mind as she clearly is the one pulling the strings in TA, and this forum is not about abusing others, but in getting to the bottom of matters that pertain to native people.
Everything I have stated here is true, and I have no doubt all I say will be called otherwise to protect TA. Judging by the false claims made by TA in the past, this is nothing new, infact I expect it. I am not here to make myself look any better than the next person, I'm not working my way around the web trying to gain people's money, donations, or claiming to be something I am not, as you can see for yourself as I have recently opened a web site, of which can be viewed, it is an all native information site, with information gathered from many sources pertaining to natives, with native chat rooms on site, this site is a freeweb site, with no membership fees, no donations asked or needed ever, thus proving a web site CAN be run without focusing on greed, a site that is run by native american people. Of which we have already received the label "Racist Site" by those in TA. It seems it is not permitted to want to have a place for native people to gather without the interference of non natives, and if I am doing something wrong here, please let me know and I will correct it.

http://www.freewebs.com/americanunitymovement/

I'm simply a native woman who is sick and tired of non natives abusing our people, which was, and is still permitted in TA, hence my leaving there. I fail to fathom why native people need to pay a membership fee...or be forced to donate (by having certain things withdrawn from their membership, ie the ability to search profiles etc)...to be abused. Our people have been abused by non natives for centuries for free! It's high time such things were put a stop to, particularly on a site that claims to be a Native American site.

With respect,

Tsisqua



Posted on site in the tribal voting department;

I would like to propose that all our members, tribes etc. bestow upon our founder Raj Gulati, known as Pappy, the honorary title of "Chief Pappy" and to recognize that although Pappy is not of Native American ancestry by blood, but by adoption, he truly is Native American. Pappy has the HEART and SPIRIT of a Native American as is demonstrated by his hard work for all our Sisters and .Brothers and his dedication to us all. Officially, to have this done by our members,would HONOR him and show how much we RESPECT his LOYALTY to Native Americans and thier issues.

Forum postings that were removed (Unfortunately these are in reverse order);

I sit here in disgust as I have looked upon this site and what it has turned into in the past few days. I see people pointing fingers, I see people hiding behind a status, I see children. We are all adults on this site, grown ass people, with our own lives and our own problems. This was a place of leisure, a place of unity where one could come and relax, network, make new friends. Yet this place of opportunity has become a place of grief and resentment. Chief? What does that word mean to your people? To you? Has anyone in this place earned the title of Chief? Anybody who understands what the word Chief means would never give out such a title or accept it for that matter. Yet I have seen this word thrown around like a name. Its like the word love, its not a word to be used lightly. Never have I seen someone take the title of Chief and disgrace it the way I have seen here. What kind of leadership is being demonstrated by this man and has he even proved himself capable? What kind of man, "CHIEF" would let this happen? Anybody can get a boat, but does that make all of us captain's? It takes a certain breed for one to take command....to lead others, and I haven't seen this man do anything of that nature. I have only seen one leader in this group and SHE isn't talking about it....she is doing it. Everyday I see this woman posting new information, creating new ways of opportunity in so that our people can become one united fist. She knows what she has to do and is doing it. She is talking WITH the people and isn't talking AT them. (StickNDN)


7938 Re: TA Pool - I like how the blame is shifted to the only one who actually cared here. But, it surprises me not. And I am happy to see how you, Pappy, find this all highly amusing and entertaining. The door was closed, not left open as you all claim. Tsissy tried all day yesterday to make contact with you pappy while listening to others on your site complain about how they are being treated by your admin, I know, I was in the office with her, yet you act as though she simply 'walked away'. Have you any idea how difficult this was for her? Do you have any clue what her people mean to her? NO! Nor do you care. There is no verdict to be out, as you so say, there are many witnesses to what happened in chat, many people speaking up about admins one sided behavior. You hide behind the skirt of RQ, we all know you like it there. I hear you wished for AIM to give you a blessing? You are a laughing stock! They would not lower themselves. They already know who you are, as do many others. You could not put this right, for one reason. You have no Native American Spirit. You shift the blame like a white man, you finger point and refuse to take responsibility, like a white man, yet you preach Native unity? People would think alot better of you if you set this right. Tsissy did her best for everyone here, they know it, yet you shrugg your shoulders when she is forced to walk away. Would you prefer it if she had stayed, gone against everything she believes in and sat and watched her people be disrespected and abused?? Would that have made you happy?? Blade Yazzie. (2007-12-08 16:47:52.151934)

#7937 Re: TA Pool - Very interesting sequence of postings. I am away from Tribal America for two days and that is enough to rile up a bunch of people. As I mentioned in the other thread, the verdict is still out as to which admin ended up booting people or blocking chatids, so lets be careful how we side on this issue. However, keep the conversation going, as that is what this is here for. For the record, there is no agenda on Tribal America, nor is there any notion of taking sides. Regardless of these types of events, Tribal America has grown strong, and will become even stronger. The notion of a pool as suggested for this thread is a wonderful idea, I welcome it, and will be happy to implement it for everyone. Be sure to read my posting in the other thread. Finally a note regarding Chief Pappys so called agenda. Tell what what it is, for I would love to have a really devious one, but unfortunately my role on TA is quite boring and just as a care taker. If someone wants to stand up to be the next Chief Pappy, do contact me, I would greatly welcome that. Take a deep breath, smile. All is good. Best wishes. Love to all. Sincerely, Chief Pappy. (2007-12-08 16:29:20.872673)

#7936 Re: TA Pool - I repeat, you were not banned and I did not do something that didn't happen. On the homepage there is a place called chat blocks. Anyone can check this at anytime. There are only two people that have been blocked from chat on that list. You Lone are not one of them. And you were not banned from anything else on our site. I realize that this is hard time for those who loved Mark and I understand as I too have lost loved ones. All my actions have been based on my knowing this and I believe I have acted accordingly. I am in the chat room often and I do not always remember who is there so if I was there and you were and I don't recall it, pardon me. There are gliches that happen on our site and our chatters know this. This incidence was one of them. Lone I had nor have any reason to ban you from anything on this site. Why on earth would I do this especially at a time when you are sharing with us all your hurt and feelings about Mark? As far as Pappy ignoring you I would have to take execption to that. Pappy has his own business to run and gets busy with that and that is easily understood if one chooses to. Pappy tries to take care of matters as fast as his schedule permits him to. WE are all very lucky that after all this time Pappy devotes himself to our causes and provides us with this site. As far as me dishonoring anyone, I have not done that. All are cherished, living or passed and I would never act as you stated I have. I know you are upset and grieving and this makes it harder for us to realize things. So I ask you to please understand that I did not ban you from anything and no one else did either. Gliches do happen at TribalAmerica and that is what happened. All this anger, all these hurtful words help no one. They take away our dignity. They fester until it becomes a big ugly open wound. ONe that will not heal unless we treat it. This is what is happening now because one will not listen and trust. This need not happen. TribalAmerica has weathered many storms and we will get over this one also. WE,I, try to be very fair in decisions regarding our members and take what I do very seriously. We have varied opinions on this site from our members about what is disrespectful and what is not. What is acceptable to one maynot be acceptable to another. This is how life is. WE have a big family and sometimes we need to send someone to the corner for a timeout. It is not easy pleasing everyone and you just can't. So I ask everyone to understand this. WE,I,do my best and I take the heat like a big girl and consider the source it comes from when someone does not agree on a decision I have made. I have commented on this because I see this issue has come up also. I truly believe in Unity and what that stands for and it bothers me when there is no discussion amongst us when one is disatisfied. It bothers me that some choose to walk away and not communicate. Espcially when that door has been opened and the other party closes it. WE see the result of that in these postings and from those that have choosen to walk away. As natives we walk our own path, red road,so I would never presume that one is not because that path is not like my own. If someones road leads to leaving this site I will respect that and try to understand. But,it should also be known that I have reached out to try and rectify, communicate with persons that have choosen to walk away. This has failed as they have choosen not to answer (2007-12-08 16:25:45.798389)

#7934 Re: TA Pool - Pappy will not step in 2 rectify this issue, he sees only 2 things, himself and RQ, I have watched real close over the last 3 days while Tsissy has been in here, I have watched as she has tried 2 deal with the issues at hand, I saw no support from Pappy, only excuses, "shrug it off sis", he said, "rise above it", "Tribal America is bigger than this", "let me tell you about my own dreams for Tribal America", he said. But Tsissy would not shrug off people being abused and did not wish 2 hear of dreams etc, and why should she?? Unity begins with members being treated with respect. Pappy should have solved the issue, not sided with those allowing it to happen. Mark my words, every native american group, site, tribal council and so on, will hear of this, I will make sure of it. And now I find my brother Skylar has 2 been banned from entering the site 4 speaking his mind, but apparently people are not banned here? No doubt I will be next along with many others. This site is a joke, run by fools. A bunch of clowns running around playing NDN. They had 1 real NDN here in admin, and look what they do. They no more have any idea of unity for native people than the government does. 1st class idiots. Pappy should have stepped up 4 native people since he himself wants the status of Honorary Chief. HA! What Chief ignores his people being abused by whites in the chat room? Ignores his people being abused by others in this site? Ignores the actions of Admin who are only interested in their own white friends? Preaching about unity?? About wanting whats right 4 native people?? BS! This is a mere scam as far as Im concerned 2 elevate pappy's status and gain money from you members, it sure as hell has nothing 2 do with unity, as has been proven. As I said, I will make it widely known who these people are and what they have shown they stand 4. After all Tsissy did here, Pappy has made no apology, nothing. Chief? I see no Chief. Blade Yazzie. (2007-12-08 16:19:34.450114)

#7931 Re: TA Pool - 162954, I agree (see 'Whats your opinion') However I must take back my original posts. I did find the truth to the matter. I myself was lied to by administration here. This WAS a personal issue, and many innocent people were affected by it. The damage done by one person (RQ), cannot be undone now. Even if Pappy stepped in and did the right thing, which has not happened yet. Yes this is VERY sad. And it has caused dissention, not unity. Allowing this, has permanently hurt this site. I'll probably get booted for this post. It has been great to know you all, and I will miss you, my friends. If I'm booted, it just proves my point. So you may all need to make a decision soon. good luck... see you in chat... ??? (2007-12-08 15:53:35.500012)

#7922 Re: TA Pool - i have only been gone a few short days and i come back to find the new friends i have made either booted or gone for one reason or another.. i have read the responses and it saddens me. to see this kind of thing take place. UNITY will some one plzz define that word for me? it saddens me that we loose people over booting,and jealiousy. and people who have power egos... it senseless.. y promote a site where it has become a war zone...plzz i love tribal i have learn so much from it and made so many new friends but i dont like what its becoming a battle ground... this is just my opinion. for what it worth.. and by the way.. if i am to be booted so be it.. i will be booted with my head held high .. we should hold court proceedings and let a jury decided who gets booted and if the crime fits the booting.. (2007-12-07 22:41:12.272493)

#7921 Re: TA Pool - Well..actually, a friend of mine was 'banned' for 3 months for smart talking back to admin. Defending herself from being told she was 'hostile' to men...when the admin. had no idea who my friend was talking about or what the situation was. So please, do not say, people are not 'banned' except as a last resort. T.Y. (2007-12-07 21:16:25.049161) 

#7918 Re: TA Pool - Bill...I have not jumped to any conclusions...I am leaving here for my own reasons...I have tried to do all I can here...but sometimes without the support from those who run the site...there's little a person can do in the end....unity is about people being treated as equals...not about who is friends with whom....and it sure as heck is not about sitting idly by while natives are abused here and treated badly by non natives....I cannot sit back and watch...yet I am being forced to do so.....I cannot...so I have left. You know who I am Bill....I thought you would understand this....I guess I have been very wrong about many people here. Tsisqua. (2007-12-07 19:24:46.114788)

#7915 Re: TA Pool - Hummm ? She was not booted. All this animosity among friends for nothing! It seems like a technical problem. I tried to post a suggestion that would have prevented all this, but whoever is in control, deemed it not fit to print. Because my suggestion was not allowed to be posted in the forum, is not a reason for me to leave. I will stay, and try to help make this site te best it can be, and maybe you should all do the same. It's the right thing to do. The only way to change things is from the inside, not by running away. Besides, it SEEMS AS you have jumped to conclusions for no reason, since LoneFeather is not banned from chat.... (2007-12-07 19:12:47.932975)

#7914 Re: TA Pool - Native Unity is about people standing together side by side.....not a few standing above all others...as I have said many many times in the past...we are all the same. Everything I have done here, I did for our people...and now I have been disrespected and pushed aside, as have others in the past few weeks...well no longer. This is not unity as I know it. Dispite futile claims...there is no anger here with me....I feel pity. Native Unity can be achieved, but not by those who merely wish to govern others, who wish to allow native peoples to be abused here, disrespected and belittled...that's not what Unity is. To my many brothers and sisters here...I love you...I pray you find all you seek in life, and I too pray Creator walks your path alongside you....I am cancelling my account also....and no doubt there will be much said once I do by those who wish to stick the knife in further....its easy to do when you have no one to answer to...so please...go ahead....I've had plenty of it over the past few weeks here.... Tsisqua (2007-12-07 19:10:53.0816)

#7913 Re: TA Pool - I am so disheartened and appalled at the treatment of so many ppl on this site but impaticular two. I thought I had found a safe place where I could come to learn about my ppl and make friends with not only native ppls but of many others . Then I come to find out the BS and crap that has expired. In paticular calling my sister a liar!!?? I've also sat by and watched as my sister Tsisqua work her butt off to make this site a safe haven for native ppls and tirelessly work to bring Unity to TA... is this not what this is all about?? Well I sure as hell don't see any others in ' power ' here trying to do the same as she. I'm outraged at the treatment of these two ppl,as well as many others. I will be closing my account with Tribal America as I no longer feel welcome here. To my many friends, whom I'll be leaving behind... walk the Red Road in peace and with dignity, as will I. Diana ( Fire Eyes ) (2007-12-07 18:48:33.748386)

#7910 Re: TA Pool - I am cancelling my membership as I refuse to be a member of a site that promotes such little respect to native people. I will also spread the word. The things I have seen here in the last three days has disgusted me. The only one interested in Native Unity was Tsissy, and you have driven her out too. Well done. (2007-12-07 17:22:48.252963)

#7909 Re: TA Pool - LoneFeather, I checked the chat blocks and you have not been banned from there. So I am not sure what is happening,but it hasn't been because you were banned. I would have hoped that I or Pappy would have gotten an email from you about this before you choose to put it in the forums. WE value or members and the very last thing that should ever happen is to ban someone. We try to communicate with a person if there is a problem. So again I will tell you.....YOu have not been banned, there is nothing that shows on the site that you have been banned. NO administrator has banned you or would without speaking to you first. (2007-12-07 14:55:57.683646)

#7908 Re: TA Pool - ummm and by the way Tsissy is not the one banning us all, she is the one who is attempting to solve the problems at hand. (2007-12-07 14:21:30.536834)


What’s Your Opinion? - Material posted by Tsissy, were her own words, and belonged solely to her. How dare you! I have all your emails to Tsissy, you did not support her attempts here, nor did you respond when she tried all yesterday to contact you. Yet now you are being made to look a fool, the fool that you are, you put the blame on her? You prove your worth with every word. Native people will know who you are, count on that. (2007-12-08 16:24:43.083089)

#7930 Re: What’s Your Opinion? - Lets be careful how we voice and take sides on this thread since the verdict is not yet out as to actually was that 'admin' that did a sequence of bootings of members from chat in the last day or so, and attempted to block otherwise good citizens of tribal america. We are also sad to see Tsisqua leave tribal america after repeated attempts to communicate with her. We are also sad to see her deliberately remove unity and native american key postings from the site, given that those postings are important for informing native americans that visit tribal america and that she was one that stood for unity and supporting methods of communication unity to all. Any material posted on Tribal America becomes the property of Tribal America, this is available in our terms and disclaimers across the site. Any malicioiusly deleted material will be restored in due time given the continuous backups that are taken of the key sections of the site. Even member profiles, as they go through changes, have each version backed up. A notice to members: if you are someone that is not able to get into a specific part of Tribal America, do contact me, because to my knowledge at this point, all such blocks have been removed. Any public site such as this can be the target of a few friends that band together to voice dissension or complaint. The site has been run for 10 years through much of the same and remains strong, and will continue to remain strong for the benefit of the majority. And of course, there will be responses to my statement, and I welcome them, the more the better, for you are then serving the very reason why this site does exist and does remain strong. Peace and love to all. One people One Voice. Chief Pappy. (2007-12-08 14:51:57.018165)

#7928 Re: What’s Your Opinion? - Hi,I do not go into chat very often anymore and do not have access to any lists.I have,however noticed that individuals who are well known to be abusive and who's motives for contacting members are self serving have been allowed to remain,while good people have left this site because of the abuse of these individuals.I kind of makes me wonder who is running this and why these people remain.(One of the users I know personally and he is still active in here).. (2007-12-08 14:21:15.484163)

#7927 Re: What’s Your Opinion? - Sparrow if you speak of Tsisqua - she had no means to check a ban list - she only had whatever tools Pappy saw fit to give her in being a part of this site and she told Lonefeather in front of me that she could not have been banned, so please do not make accusations of things you know nothing of - and since you were not around when all this took place how can you comment? It seems the work Tsisqua has done for this site has gone un noticed. She left here not because of who was banned and who was not - she left here as native people are being disrespected - and when she tried to stop this happening - you all went over her head and refused to take the matter seriously. There is no unity without the support of management here - and the only people who had that support was you Sparrow, and RQ. Tsisqua did all the leg work - while you all took the credit. Native Unity? You do not know the meaning of the word here. You get one real  native here working on the site - for the people - a person who works relentlessly for her people, always has and always will - and you cast her aside because she will not sit by and watch her people abused in chat. DISGUSTING. And FYI, you can ban my ass too! But I will publicly broadcast what this site really is and exactly what goes on here. Not ONE of you bothered to contact Tsisqua - you all shrugged your shoulders after all she has done here. Congratulations. Such native spirit you all have. (2007-12-08 12:19:41.699594)

#7924 Re: What’s Your Opinion? - I have seen there is no consistency. I see that certain administrators are imposing their own value system upon others. There appears to be no room for intellectual bannering. There is no room for joking around. The joking around maybe offensive to the administrative but not necessarily to others. I believe people must use their voice. If they are offended, they must verbalize that. If the behavior by the offender continues they should be booted out but it must be verbalized. We are all adults and a certain administrator does not have to play mother hen or create a hostile environment. I believe everyone has good intentions and we can work out our differences to become united. Is that was unity is all about? (2007-12-08 11:54:13.995684)


Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Fire Eyes on January 25, 2008, 10:30:28 pm
I was a member of TA and witnessed all that occured there, I'm writing this in support of all that Tsisqua has written. I was in chat and witnessed  the abuse that was heaped on by non-natives towards our People in there. I also witnessed the so called honorary dedication ceremony that made " Chief Pappy" and honorary Chief. All it turned out to be was viewing him make a complete ass of himself on a webcam, waving feathers around. I found this highly offensive and a joke. I was also there many nights when " Chief Pappy"  came online and would start on his tangents about bringing the Native People together in Unity, I'm sure most of these were sparked by fire water as most of it, if not all of it made no sense whatsoever. I had sat with Tsisqua day after day when she worked her butt off to try to make TA a place any Native American would be proud to come too and learn and make friends, only to have her hopes dashed because " Chief Pappy " would take all the credit for her hard work and not once give the credit to the one person who really wanted Unity. I have seen e-mails she sent him with great ideas on how to make TA a better place only to have them ignored or used but for him to take credit. I have since gone on to the NAU site with Tsisqua and try to help as much as possible... I know 100 % that this place is a safe haven for Native Americans a place we can all be proud to come too.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on January 26, 2008, 02:30:50 pm
I am including emails from my own personal yahoo account...these were from the day before, and the day I left TA, (Dec 6th/7th 2007) they are original emails, and I have no problem forwarded them to anyone who wishes to see them to prove so. They clearly show how nothing was done, nothing was taken seriously etc. I hope they will be of help.

Incidently, the following message now appears on forum there; This content is the property of the tribalamerica.com and is freely posted by members after logging in. Any duplication or distribution without our consent is strictly forbidden per federal and state regulations and is prosecutable under law.

So I will make it clear, these emails are from my own personal account, of which I am free to use as I so wish per federal and state regulations. The forum postings in my last post, pertained to me in person, were stored in my own personal files, thus being such, I am obliged to use them as I see fit.

With respect,

Tsisqua

----- Original Message ----
From: Fry Bread <fry_bread_72@yahoo.com>
To: tribalmail-office@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:09:26 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: hello

I have just been repremanded by RQ for removing two white members from chat today for abusing natives, talking about how all natives are drunks, are dirty and have alcohol problems.....one of these members has been rude and disrespecful to me from day one of being on the site...of which I have always let slide....but when they are causing disrespect to native people here, I cannot sit by and watch. Now if I have done something wrong by kicking out two people for disrespecting native people....on the grounds that they should be permitted to stay 'Just Because' they are RQ's white friends, then that is perfectly fine....I clearly do not understand where the line is...to me disrespect is disrespect...whom ever it comes from.
I have seen enough over the past weeks. I will remove my writings and my name from Tribal America.
Tsisqua

tribalmail-office@yahoo.com wrote:
Sis,
Before you take any such action out of hurt or haste, you and I will chat about it please.
Just not just this minute, I am deep into a deliverable due tonight at midnight.
Talk to you soon, my sister.


----- Original Message ----
From: Fry Bread <fry_bread_72@yahoo.com>
To: tribalmail-office@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:22:00 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: hello

I can't believe you are dismissing this and not wanting to sort this out! When people come to me...as they do all throughout the day....and complain about behaviour on chat, people being offensive, rude, disrespectful, etc etc and expect me to do something about it...which I DO....I am then made to look highly stupid when others dismiss the whys and fail to understand that while Im sitting there all day (18 hours a day)...doing the best I can for native people and Tribal America..while your other admin stroll in once in a while to cause a problem and reinstate those who offend others....making me look as though Im all talk and no responsibility to the saftey and peace of the room and site, it gets pretty damn old. RQ is the FIRST person to complain and boot others when people talk about alcohol etc to her....but not it seems when its her own personal friends calling all natives alcoholics etc?
I do not act out of hurt of haste....I spend alot of time, my own time, which I do freely trying to help on the site as you know...on top of my own work....I dont HAVE to be there....and I sure as heck WONT be there while Im being made to look a fool, and while native people are wantonly disrespected by non natives while being charged a membership fee for the right. Pisses me off.

tribalmail-office@yahoo.com wrote:
rq just came in to chat, i am also on messenger yahoo, but brb cant talk right now


----- Original Message ----
From: Fry Bread <fry_bread_72@yahoo.com>
To: tribalmail-office@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:40:28 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: hello

I have calls to make and work to do here, Im logged off TA....if keeping friends on TA is more important to you than the safety and peace of mind of all there, then RQ can take over where I leave off as she clearly know better than anyone else.....let your members be sarcastically abused by Avondale...constanly belittling native people and their ways....what a wonderful place to bring a native person...do you know how many people leave the room/site due to him alone? Let RQ's other friends rant on about how all natives are alcoholics etc....let them drive members away in disgust that these things are permitted....just because they are someones friends....that is fine by me...but I refuse to be involved in that kind of thing. Keep bringing back drunks who verbally sexually abuse members on site, our teens and our woman 'just because' they donate every month. I will have no part in this.
Native people are my number one priority...not who my friends are or who other peoples friends are...I stand for native rights...not for the right for natives to be sitting in a chat room shaking their head in disgust wondering what the heck they are doing there in the first place with the abuse you are allowing to continue....we are suppose to be bringing in more members...not driving them away.....I posted in womens forum how people like this need to be perminently kept out and how I will ensure they are....I had many emails, p2p's etc expressing thanks for stepping up to the plate as other admin had refused to do so....hard to step up to a plate that is goverened by 'who someones white friends are'....I dont understand this, I dont appreciate it and I dont see how priority is given in this case....If one of my own family came in and disrespected others...I would be the first to remove them...makes no difference who they are.

tribalmail-office@yahoo.com wrote:
ok, i'll stop waiting
talk to you soon, before you make any judgements and decisions, ensure you sync with me live!
love, paps

----- Original Message ----
From: Fry Bread <fry_bread_72@yahoo.com>
To: tribalmail-office@yahoo.com
Cc: rajkgulati@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, December 7, 2007 5:54:29 PM
Subject:

I have tried to contact you today, all day long.....I also sat in chat for hours....perhaps 10...watched and read.
RQ obviously has full reign there for whatever reason.....so Im sure she can continue where I leave off...as I am tired of being patronized and belittled by her, and sick to my stomach of how she treats natives there if they do not belong in her 'friend' catagory or if they 'dare' to complain about admin...and tired of many members complaining about her and the way this place is run by you and the other admins. You said you support me 100%? but that's not exactly true is it?....you support me to my face...and behind my back to RQ its another story, I have seen this from her today. Seems you both find this entertaining...the abuse of native people entertains you? This make me sick to my stomach.
Lonefeather has mailed you, as have I today....but to no avail. It seems there are no answers to our many questions, and we are clearly being ignored, and the problems on site are being openly dismissed.
You are both obviously not concerned with the same issues that concern me, that concern the native people and other organizations that fight for native rights and unity, the concerns of your native members...and with that being said....obviously our people, nor I, have no place there.
RQ seems to think Im just upset over Marks passing.....and is making excuses for my leaving to all who will listen. I will make it clear right now. I have left because of the abuse of natives here, the two faced backstabbing, allowing non natives to run a native site and for admin to sit there and get off on the abuse that takes place, pure ignorance. Some of the things I have been informed of today, have cleared matters up for me, now I see with my eyes open. Im done here.

tribalmail-office@yahoo.com wrote:
Sis,
I have been away from the the internet, just got home, and saw this message of yours. I am sorry to hear of your pain and anger.
At some point, I'll get to reading the chat logs to see what happened. I have been contacted by RQ and Sparrow separately as well. I also just replied to Lonefeather's e-mail.
It sounds like from your multiple e-mails, that your mind is already made up and the "I have left because" suggests you are not returning to TA.
It hurts me to read you say "and behind my back to RQ", I favor no one yet do my best to stand by everyone, to a point.
Love,
Raj

I think you are better communicating with RQ since she is the only one who seems to be respected...as for Sparrow....she knew nothing of what has happened...only what RQ has told her as she was not there...RQ wants things her way...regardless of anyone else there...especially if they do not fall into her 'white friend' catagory.....and Im too old for playground games. Its YOUR site...and you clearly see the ways things are going on there not to be a problem, and as you state...you will get to things at 'some point'....this is not good enough when natives are being abused here....and on that, we obviously dont see eye to eye. I have too much at stake bringing in youths and new members etc to be abused....I wont put more people in the way of what Ive experienced myself and have already seen towards other natives....I've been pushed out, taken for granted, used and belittled as have many others.....thats not my idea of unity. Goodbye.


* That was the last I heard from tribalamerica, until the forum postings.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on March 11, 2008, 03:33:24 pm
Quote
TS does not require a membership fee as it was decided that we wanted all our Native Brothers and Sisters to be able to members of our site, free of charge.

Quote
There are not big amounts of money missing as is claimed by Tsisqua. We do accept donations and these are used to keep our site running.

Now Please view the following:

Quote
Tribal America Community Announcements - Mon Mar 10, 2008 22:19:12 GMT
From Chief Pappy: due to costs, a new pricing plan will be going into effect by june 1st, anyone with an upgraded sort priority in the last 3 months will be provided one full year free, all others will need to upgrade with the new pricing plan.....

This can be found at:

http://gulati.com/cgi-bin/home.pl?loginid=&sk=&function=Mailboxes

Also a members question...

Quote
Topic #2075
New pricing plan? - I a little confused about the posting on the main page about a 'new pricing plan' When I joined this site it was a 'one-time charge' of $10.00. The way the posting reads, it sounds as if I am going to be charged to continue on this site. What happens if I don't upgrade? #163814

This can be found at:

http://gulati.com/cgi-bin/tforums.pl?fn=f&tp=2075&m=&loginid=&sk=


Lets see how this is explained away.

With respect,

Tsisqua
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 11, 2008, 05:56:20 pm
Tsisqua

Last night I took the time to carefully read through all this.

It can be hard to understand the progression of events that cause people become estranged from each other in their on line relationships, and I don't mean to be insensitive to your feelings, but I honestly couldn't see where anything in the long conversations that you posted here looked abusive.

What I did see is that you were very involved in supporting this website, and you felt you had been the victim of a lack of appreciation for your efforts.   

What caused me to take the time to read through this really carefully to make sure I hadn't missed something, was the new member Raven Crow, who seems to know you from other boards and who has brought up some more  allegations of divisive cyber dramas. Again these allegations are too vauge to understand what the problem was, but as i am seeing what looks like a bit of a pattern I read through this again looking for clues in case I missed something.

I guess if you are in the middle of these things it can seem obvious to you that you have been wronged, but without links or a clear point by point progression of events and what exactly happened and was said, I can't make any sense of this.

I can see where it is strange to have a website with people calling themselves Chief and running a Tribal America website when they aren't Native. And all the domain names seems very strange. 

But then you sound like you were involved in supporting this group, so I am not clear what it was that you found strange .

Charging for the service is kind of peculiar too - though many websites that help people get matched up do this.

I really don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but if wrong doing is going on, it really helps if people can be more specific and if this happened on line show some evidence. It's good you posted this to let people know to be careful , but people are obnoxious and rude in on many websites.  Check out Indianz.com if you want to see some real ndn mud wrestling.

http://indianz.com/board/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=5 (http://indianz.com/board/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=5)

I'm not sure this is something that falls into the catagory of fraud or exploitation. Maybe I'm just not understanding what your concerns are, and if that is the case I apologize. I don't mean to be insensitive.

Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on March 11, 2008, 06:23:13 pm
I do not see your posting as insensitive at all infact I appreciate your words....my point with regards to Tribal America was the simple fact that it was advertised as an all Native site, run by Natives...of which proved false...white admin allowed Native people to be constantly abused by non Native people....and turned a blind eye...Native people were banned for asking staff to stop this...and all the while, money was asked for repeatedly even though admin denied this here (Funny how once again they are asking for more money)...at this point TA was not a dating site, but a Native Unity Site....advertised as a free site....regardless of the hours or effort I personally put it...that was never an issue to me...for I did it freely.

With regards to the new member....she does not know me from any other boards dispite her allegations, I am a member here, also on the yahoo group of NAFPS, American Indian Injustice, and a few others....plus of course my own site....she was directed to me yesterday for the first time via my cousin Matty who maintains a page on RNS to keep watch on certain well known fakes there,  he was being rudely questioned by her on our NAU links to Beaderman, her messages were nothing short of abusive....of which I have copies of all correspondence...her attacks are without cause or proof....and this is simply all I had pointed out to her in forum...seems others are NOT entitled to an opinion or answers, BUT this new member...which is not the way here. I know nothing of fake ID cards....or other things she speaks of, nor am I or have I ever been romantically involved with Beaderman...this is all just laughable...but she can say what she may...Im not here claiming to be something I am not...as I have previously stated... I have been nothing less than respectful...as is our way in NAU...and we pride ourselves in our dealings with others.

Perhaps the questions you have put to this new member will not be answered...since I see she refuses to give her accussations any credibility and says 'Tsis knows who he is'...well I will remind people, it was not I who posted here and tried to defame the character of another person without evidence...that is called 'personal spite' and its not something I involve myself in.

With respect,

Tsissy (NAU ~ Native American Unity)

Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 11, 2008, 07:33:06 pm
Thanks for the summery. You are saying this is a poorly moderated site, run by non natives calling itself Native Unity, that charges fees and has a whole bunch of domain names on Native themes. Yeah that does sound like something people should be careful of. 

I'm glad that I didn't sound too dense. Your summery makes sense.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on March 11, 2008, 08:04:08 pm
I appreciate your response...there are many sites out there that claim to be something they are not...that take money from native people, sell ceremony, sell other items, abuse native people...and I feel they need to be exposed for what they are.

I appreciate your time,

With respect,

Tsissy
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on March 25, 2008, 11:23:10 pm
Not to keep harping on about this....but I've just been informed TA are now asking all members to 'Donate' 50 bucks a piece or they will no longer be able to avail of the messaging system (Sending private messages like email)....which has always been a free service.

This is what I've received...now Im only showing this as RQ herself clearly stated:

Quote
TS does not require a membership fee as it was decided that we wanted all our Native Brothers and Sisters to be able to members of our site, free of charge.


There are not big amounts of money missing as is claimed by Tsisqua. We do accept donations and these are used to keep our site running.

Now...with over 7 thousand members....they want 50 bucks a piece?? That's 350,000 bucks right there!! To run a web site??

Quote
Date: Mar 25, 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: Tell me what might have changed....
Body: Hello Tsis,
I found this quite interesting....
I though the so called "Chief Pappy" ran TA.
Check this out.... It has her picture placed right above and before the words....
I immediately thougtht of you, in regards to fraudulant people (fake) .... LOL
Now they are charging, if you want to send your friends an email message, or to leave them a message. How funny is that? Those hungry greety people.... LOL it cracks me up :D


Tribal America Inc is a 100% woman owned and operated organization registered by Ms. Anju Gulati with the State of Virginia, USA. This online service for native american brothers and sisters has been in operation since 1998.

Tribal America runs on donations and volunteer work only. All donations are placed back into the site for server hosting fees, postal mailings of letters and flyers, donations to needy organizations when possible, and other causes as driven by our Native American Unity project. If you feel Tribal America is of value to the community, please help support us in any amount and as regularly you can afford. Donating is not a requirement to keep your account active on Tribal America. Upgrading at least once places you into STAR membership, which is visible to other members on your profile as blinking red stars next to your name on your profile page.

Having an account on this network is free for all members. Donating is not a requirement to remain a member. If you feel this network provides a way to unite native american brothers and sisters together, please support this site by using any of the options below - doing so will update the sort priority of your profile as our thanks back to you. Doing so the very first time will upgrade your account to STAR membership which gives you the ability to send and receive message.

Please view the four options below to upgrade/refresh your profile's sorting priority.



Also the following message...

Quote
Date: Mar 25, 2008 3:46 PM
Subject: Here is part 2 .... NOTHING IS FREE NO MORE!
Body: Option #1 - Free! For Native American Identity Holders
We understand that some members, particular on the reservations, have little means to donate money. So, if you have a native american identity card or a paystub from a business that is based on or for a native american registration, send that to us either by postal mail to the address below or by fax to +1.800.856.2510 along with your member id # and e-mail address for a free update to your profile sorting priority. You can repeat this as many times as you want to. Please note we do not hold on to what you send, so you will have to resend it again to repeat an upgrade to your sorting priority.

Option #2 - Send US/Canadian By Paypal
Instant Sort Priority - Within Seconds!


Tribal America Inc has preferred organization status with Paypal.

Note: you do not need a paypal account to use this option! Look for the "Don't have a PayPal account?" section after cliking the Donate button.

Select an amount you can help us with then click the Donate button:

You only need to establish your upgrade once, but can donate again as many times as you feel that Tribal America is a good site for all native americans:

ONE TIME ONLY!

For first timers, the minimum is a one-time donation of $50 to become a STAR member for life, which also sets your sort priority to the current date.


For STAR members, a wider selection of donation options allows you to refresh/update your sort priority at any time of your choosing so that your profile moves back to the top of searches. Please send in the maximum you can, since Tribal America does not mandate monthly subscriptions and therefore appreciates appreciates your support in helping run this site.

Please maximize what you can help us with, then click the donate button below:

$50 $60 $75 $85 $90 $100 $125 $150 $175 $200

Upon completing your donation to our paypal account, you will receive confirmation emails from both Paypal and Tribal America. In addition, your sort priority on your profile will be automatically updated to the latest timestamp.


Option #3 - Send US/Canada/Euro By Postal Mail
We only accept cash bills of US, Canadian, or Euros. Money orders should be in US dollars. When sending by postal mail, any where from $5 and up is acceptable. Postal Money Orders or Check donations must be in US Dollars otherwise it costs us anywhere from $35 to $50 in conversion fees.

When using postal mail, remember to include both your member id # and your e-mail address  with your donation. Send your donation for any amount you can afford, to:


Tribal America Inc
12257 Sherborne Street
Bristow
Virginia 20136
USA

Phone: 7034090531
E-mail: tribalmail-office@yahoo.com

Option #4 - Native American Unity Program
For members that can provide a specific activity as members of this network that will help to support the growth of the network and the goal of native american unity can be provided a complementary upgrade to their sort priority. To join other such members, you must either have a specific proposal sent to Chief Pappy or be recommended by members already actively supporting that need your assistance. In specific, any members that can provide marketing goods such as t-shirts, mugs, pens, or other souveniers that are marked with "tribalamerica. com" and a flying-eagle-in-sky logo, please send them to our mailing address, and we will find members that can help distribute them to the next powwow, event, or other organization.


Now, let us keep in mind Chief Pappy aka Raj Gulati is NOT a Chief...nor is he Native American but from INDIA...his wife  Anju Gulati is also NOT Native American but from INDIA...and they apparently dont ask members for money??  :-X
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on April 02, 2008, 08:16:40 pm
Quote
#8188 Re: New pricing plan? - Okay, I appreciate the clarity that has been placed on the main page about the new pricing plan. I can assure you I will not be one to continue with this site, even as much as I enjoy it. I will pay no more than what was orginally asked of me when I joined.I don't appreicate being lied too and mislead when I originally joined. A lifetime membership is just that...for life. The charge was $10 to do so. It is wrong to go back and charge those members who joined in the past. If the site wants to change its pricing plan that is it choice, however, it should be done with the new members coming in, not with those who were already here and were told that they would only have to pay $10 to do so.If anyone knows of any other native sites out there that would be good to connect with please let me know. I prefer the ones that are honest and hold to their words!I am very disappointed in this and the wrongful actions that are being taken by the owners of this site. You cannot achieve your goal of 'one people one voice' when you are not honest and show deceit in the process, no trust can be established with such things. (2008-03-20 19:30:05.979678) #163814

Quote
And for everyones information Chief Pappy is not in this for the money, if he was this site would have closed long ago. This site barely makes enough money to keep it running and many times Chief Pappy has put in his own money to keep it going.

(NOTE: if this is not about money...why is Pappy charging 50 bucks a piece???)

Quote
It's all in the name of business.....I'm not buying it. Such a sterotype ...'Chief'? Let rethink the motives here. (2007-11-20 16:52:10.181611)

Quote
I agree its a business, hes making money of this, which hey its the american way, but to say cheif to a non native is so disrespectful to the great leaders of our past, who ever even came up with this idea should be ashamed. I f you mean hes a leader i dont think so, so custer was too,  do you want him as our leader too???????? (2007-11-23 02:20:13.967124)

And lets not forget:

Quote
TS does not require a membership fee as it was decided that we wanted all our Native Brothers and Sisters to be able to members of our site, free of charge.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: wredgranny on April 12, 2008, 12:49:57 am

This the "message" that was sent out from TS/TA,strange they do not "charge",so what they want the 50.oo for?
granny

Dear (Member # 163330),
>
> If you have not already done so, please help keep Tribal America
online by upgrading to Star Membership using any of our four
options. The regular first time upgrade is \$50 but we have enabled
your account for a \$20 upgrade for a limited time only.
>
> We hope to see you online again soon!
>
> "One People - One Voice"!
>
> Thank you and best wishes, Chief Pappy.
>
>
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 03, 2008, 01:03:18 pm
Just an update if anyone's interested.

Tribal America is now up for sale...we have this info from Lady Cedar who was also admin there, who has currently left Tribal due to being abused.

Tribal America and all the domains at the beginning of this post that Al posted.....are being sold....but please keep in mind....only a few short weeks ago...Pappy asked all members for new membership fees....some members were asked for 50 bucks...some have reported being asked for 90 bucks...all to be 'once again' a lifetime member of a site they were already lifetime members of.

So...Im kinda wondering....why ask for this money from members who have already paid for lifetime memberships.....knowing fully the org was being sold?? I find this highly deceptive.....looks like Pappy is set to make a packet once more.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: educatedindian on June 03, 2008, 01:22:16 pm
Several members of NAFPS received invitations to a yahoo group calling itself Tribal America. I don't know if it's the same bunch running it, or if the name is just a coincidence.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 03, 2008, 01:55:07 pm
Is this the group?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tribal_America/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=10

Seems they've been attaining peoples email adresses and spamming them with invites. Although I see alot of names I recognize there. Its not anything to do with tribal so some of their long time members have just told me...so I guess its just a coincidence.

Incidently...all links to Tribal previously posted here are now unaccessable.

From their forum regarding the price plan...

Quote
#8226 Re: New pricing plan? - I got my information from this site where it had stated that after June the cost for membership would be 99.00 so hurry up and upgrade for 50.00 You can make all the changes to the screens you want and make it look as you wish but I know what I read back when I first started this tread and shortly afterwards. But there was a disclaimer encouraging everyone to hurry up and upgrade now at 50.00 before the cost went up to 99.00 starting June. (2008-05-08 08:46:10.393773) #163814

Quote
#8222 Re: New pricing plan? - Asking people to send in personal information is wrong and unacceptable and this site has changed somewhat since December last year in a negative way...Why??? I will not be paying for a membership here because the owners keep changing the rules around payment. Any business knows that when changing things money wise it should not affect the current customer and the rules that surround him/her unless the structure was made to be able to change things in the future affecting everyone. If someone pays for a lifetimes use then that is their legal right to do so. (2008-05-04 10:35:07.601842) Anon

It also seems like the tactics are changing...

Quote
#8221 Re: New pricing plan? - I am struggling to understand here because it says that a NA can upgrade for free but no mention of other ethnicities. Are you hoping to allow NA's have a free site because we others are paying for it??? I'm not native but it sounds Racist besides other things...This site is supposed to be for NA's only but that's also Racist and the one off life time membership fee that people paid but are now being told they have to pay again is illegal and I will surely be investigating this further until it is resolved. This shouldn't be allowed, this site seems to create quite a bit of Racism as it is without the owners encouraging it. Or is that yr aim?????? Are the owners NA???? (2008-05-04 10:28:49.384967) Anon

Quote
#8217 Re: New pricing plan? - I rarely come here now but have to voice my objections to the new pricing plan. When I joined via Scotland Singles way back in 2003 I paid for lifetime membership. That is exactly what I expect to be provided. If Raj wants to change the rules now I expect a refund of my membership payment. (2008-04-23 10:35:37.327965) #103350

Quote
#8196 Re: New pricing plan? - I am sorry chief and others my tribal information my husband and I do not feel comfortable mailing information in to a site we are afraid of identity theft.We hate our cards the way it is....I feel strapped for my hubby and i belong here and we LOVE the people here this IS the best site. I am sorry we will not be able to pay. I would of liked to have a donation or someone have something each month up on the board to sell to donate to the site etc. to run on proceeds then to have all members giving one hundred dollars.I like to see things helped with members helping, but then...who am I.I hope you will decide to keep Tatanka and myself Iktomesapa. I know others are extremly upset by the money issue, maybe others can help find ways we can help run this site yet maintain our relationships? Any ideas ppl?Hugglers to you AllIktomesapa (2008-03-29 23:20:40.21756) #166717

Quote
#8198 Re: New pricing plan? - You bring up a very good and wise point and one that does need to be taken very seriously. Not many people are going to be comfortable with releasing such personal information to those they do not know. Idenity theft is a very big issue in this country and I would not recommend to anyone to forward their personal ID information to anyone on this site or any other site. Also paystubs have listed on them your social security number also. I don't think the owners of this site gave thought to this with their request, but it was very thoughtful of you to post your concerns on the matter. (2008-03-30 12:52:26.40839) #163814

Quote
#8188 Re: New pricing plan? - Okay, I appreciate the clarity that has been placed on the main page about the new pricing plan. I can assure you I will not be one to continue with this site, even as much as I enjoy it. I will pay no more than what was orginally asked of me when I joined.I don't appreicate being lied too and mislead when I originally joined. A lifetime membership is just that...for life. The charge was $10 to do so. It is wrong to go back and charge those members who joined in the past. If the site wants to change its pricing plan that is it choice, however, it should be done with the new members coming in, not with those who were already here and were told that they would only have to pay $10 to do so.If anyone knows of any other native sites out there that would be good to connect with please let me know. I prefer the ones that are honest and hold to their words!I am very disappointed in this and the wrongful actions that are being taken by the owners of this site. You cannot achieve your goal of 'one people one voice' when you are not honest and show deceit in the process, no trust can be established with such things. (2008-03-20 19:30:05.979678) #163814

All of the above is taken from http://74.55.127.146/cgi-bin/forums.pl?fn=f&tp=2075&m=&loginid=168000&sk=1680005952836386

There's also some talk of racism....which now seems to be due to the fact Pappy is claiming Native people can join for free if they send personal info....but as you can see...many are disgruntled with being asked for another 'lifetime membership fee'.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 09, 2008, 07:08:51 pm
Re: Tribal America
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2008, 06:55:07 am 
Tsisqua
Quote
Incidently...all links to Tribal previously posted here are now unaccessable.

I'm not sure where to post this but I see the links to the Tribal America website that I posted in Tsisqua's introduction no longer work. When I posted those links I was feeling a bit intimidated by the large and threatening copyright notices , so I didn't post the contents of them. I'm not sure this is even relevent- but I don't like to see this information become unavailable. I don't want to edit my post in Tsisqua's introdction to include this now, and i guess as the info comes from the Tribal America webpage, this is the right thread to post it in.

The information was located at the URL below. I saved some of the web pages from the old Tribal America site, and I am quoting from this . I can provide proof of this if anyone requires.

http://www.tribalamerica.com/cgi-bin/fp.pl?fn=f

First there is the intimidating and threatening copyright notice.
I hope they know about the fair use laws -

Quote
This content is the property of the tribalamerica.com and is freely posted by members after logging in. Any duplication or distribution without our consent is strictly forbidden per federal and state regulations and is prosecutable under law.

( there was a number of posts on various topics not included here )

Tsisqua
Quote
How much are you willing to give? - Clearly, Native Unity is needed. Clearly, our people could have a strong, powerful voice thru unity. Clearly, we could bring about huge changes for our people. Our Ancestors fought for the same, and SOME of our people fight for the same now. So what is the problem? It does not matter if you are a full blood, half blood, a quarter blood, green blood, yellow blood, orange blood, whatever blood!....All that matters is you STAND UP AND UNITE!! Everyone has a little time to spare. Everyone has the desire in their heart to see our people united and strong! We are not asking you for money, for your personal possessions, for your first born child (lol)...just a little TIME and EFFORT...and for you to use your strength of spirit to join with us! Please, join with us, attend the next Native Unity Meeting...at least give an idea of when you are able to attend and we can work around you. One people! One voice! Tsisqua.>

Chief Pappy
Quote
NAU Mission Statement (Draft) - I have posted a draft mission statement for Tribal America and the Native American Unity project, and would like feedback as to what statements need to be changed, what needs to be added, what doesn't make sense, etc. We want o work the mission statement and success criteria with the guidance of our online family right here at Tribal America. Please view the link and posted your feedback on this forum thread. The link can be found at tribalamerica.com/nau.html. Sincerely, Chief Pappy (2006 - Replies: 12)


http://www.tribalamerica.com/nau.html

Quote
Tribal America - Native American Unity
Draft Mission Statement
Source: TribalPower.Com Strategy Session - November 26th, 2006
Latest Request For Comment (RFC): November 3rd, 2007

To unite native american efforts under a single initiative that can deliver a unified message that is supported by a majority vote from the native american tribes to provide a better way of life to the native american population in the United States, Canada, and worldwide.

Success Criteria - Mission Statement Components

Key accomplishments that demonstrate improved way of life and opportunities for advancement for the native american.

Brand presence into various aspects of social, political, and commercial enterprise in order to establish a defined brand for the native american movement.

Ability to provide mentorship and guidance in establishment of rules and regulations that benefit the common native american soul instead of the large corporation or for-profit organization.

Tactical provision of a known face in response to immediate scenarios to voice an opinion benefiting the native american family unit.

Become established as the leading provider of online services to the native american population by leverage key offerings that align with native american interests and native american desires for community integration.

Support for educational opportunities that provide for certification of candidates for the unique designation of tribal america warrior designation.

Provision for a central directory of registration for all activities connected with the welfare of the native american community.

Creation of a recognized central library of native information that becomes the defining repository for native american heritage and culture and enables the provision of this information through free channels to all interested parties.

Recognition as the leading arbitrar and enabling service for native american business expansion and execution of merger or acquisition opportunities that benefit native american business entrepreneurs.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To help further evolve this mission statement, please visit the FORUMS.
© Tribal America Inc, All Rights Reserved
 

I don't see how anyone can copyright comments submited by various people posted on a message board - or how anyone can copyright a political plan to unify Native people? How are people supposed to discuss the background and history of such a group without quoting the draft plan and comments made by the people who founded the group ?

I guess that is why there are laws allowing "fair use" of copyrighted material for commentary or educational purposes.

I'm not sure how Tribal America can have a copyright to this idea and Tsisqua can be the owner of a registered trademark of the same idea. 

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=319485276

According to the website below it is only legal to use the symbols ® if it is used to show something is a federally registered trademark, and I see on other places on the internet like myspace Tsisqua has a ® beside the NAU logo.

http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/copyrFAQ.html

And in refference to the comments below...

Re: Tribal America
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2008, 06:55:07 am 

Tsisqua Quoting from the Tribal America website (first quote)
Quote
#8221 Re: New pricing plan? - I am struggling to understand here because it says that a NA can upgrade for free but no mention of other ethnicities. Are you hoping to allow NA's have a free site because we others are paying for it??? I'm not native but it sounds Racist besides other things...

Tsisqua
Quote
There's also some talk of racism....which now seems to be due to the fact Pappy is claiming Native people can join for free if they send personal info
....

The charging of non natives for membership looks like it has been happening for a while . As far as  can see what changed is this just got more expensive.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070830045604/http://tribalamerica.com/ (http://web.archive.org/web/20070830045604/http://tribalamerica.com/)

Quote
Welcome to TribalAmerica.Com - #1 in Native American Websites - Est. 1998!

* Tribal America Chat Is Free! - Live Native American Members Are Waiting To Chat With You Now! *

Dear Native Brothers and Sisters, Tribal America lifetime upgrade is completely free for members with proof of native american ancestry, those working on reservation land (proof required), or anyone working for a native american business (proof required), and only a $10 lifetime upgrade fee (one time only) for all other members.

It also sounds like people involved in the NAU project that was a part of Tribal America were given the services others were charged for - free ...

Tsisqua quoting from Tribal America ( no idea what a "sort priority " is , but that seems to be what TA was charging for...)
March 25, 2008, 04:23:10 pm
Quote
For first timers, the minimum is a one-time donation of $50 to become a STAR member for life, which also sets your sort priority to the current date.

Re: Tribal America
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2008, 04:23:10 pm 
posted by Tsisqua
Quote
Option #4 - Native American Unity Program
For members that can provide a specific activity as members of this network that will help to support the growth of the network and the goal of native american unity can be provided a complementary upgrade to their sort priority.


Maybe this is just a coincidence - but based on the number of members NAU began with, it looks like NAU got it's initial membership directly from Tribal America ...
 
Re: Tribal America
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2008, 04:23:10 pm 
posted by Tsisqua referring to Tribal America;
Quote
Now...with over 7 thousand members....they want 50 bucks a piece?? That's 350,000 bucks right there!! To run a web site??

 Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2008, 07:59:12 am 
Tsisqua
Quote
before I opened NAU...we already had over 7000 members of various other groups which we incorporated into NAU

I don't now much about website ownership, domain names and who owns a membership list , or about copyright and registered trademarks so maybe this is just a dumb question, but, if Tribal America is now being sold, would that sale include Tribal America's Native American Unity project?

It seems quite strange seeing people claiming to be able to own and sell ideas which have to do with Native culture, community , identities and the supposedly unified political voice of Native people. I'm not sure what the implications of that may be , but it does make me wonder...   

I saved more stuff from the Tribal America website , but I'm not sure it is relevent to post it all .....

I apologize in advance if these observatons only seem relevent because of my ignorance of the actual facts...
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 09, 2008, 11:04:31 pm
Firstly...Ive made a copy of this posting as Ive seen in recent weeks how peoples posts have been altered or portions deleted when people have tried to reply to MP's accusations.


Quote from MP....

Quote
First there is the intimidating and threatening copyright notice.
I hope they know about the fair use laws -
This content is the property of the tribalamerica.com and is freely posted by members after logging in. Any duplication or distribution without our consent is strictly forbidden per federal and state regulations and is prosecutable under law.
( there was a number of posts on various topics not included here )


I already posted this some ways back in this link, please see....

Quote
Reply #14 on: January 26, 2008, 07:30:50 am
I am including emails from my own personal yahoo account...these were from the day before, and the day I left TA, (Dec 6th/7th 2007) they are original emails, and I have no problem forwarded them to anyone who wishes to see them to prove so. They clearly show how nothing was done, nothing was taken seriously etc. I hope they will be of help.

Incidently, the following message now appears on forum there; This content is the property of the tribalamerica.com and is freely posted by members after logging in. Any duplication or distribution without our consent is strictly forbidden per federal and state regulations and is prosecutable under law.

I've noticed MP in your post, you are quoting my words from Tribal America from when I was there, words I posted ooooohhh from anywhere from 10 months ago to a year or more ago....as if you are insinuating Im hiding something...even though there are postings still on Tribal America where people have insisted my words were removed...and when I left I removed all my own work...all thats left there...besides forum postings...are words Pappy was responsible to move...which he refused....and no where have I hidden the fact I was admin there...no where have I hidden the fact that I left due to the way its run or the way native people were treated...and still are treated....I brought this here to TRY to get something done about it.But even though Ive made my own personal emails available here, and have provided as much evidence as possible...you still remain confused as to my standing on Tribal America and my apparent present day involvement with them?...lol....oh yes...I love Tribal America...uh huh....its a real swell place...why dont you join MP...you may like it there eh? I brought this here...to warn other people for craps sakes.

Yes I ran the Unity meetings, infact we had a total of TWO....Pappy created a Unity room for this purpose, he failed to show up, as did the other staff members, on both occassions, sending a clear message out to all natives who DID bother to show up, although, he had no trouble showing up to his web cam party two days later, covorting himself on main screen wearing his Eagle Feather headband, whilst the other admins got drunk and stomped to pow wow music for all to see...until of course native members left in disgust.

The NAU Mission Statement, was written by Pappy, not me, infact, I failed to even understand his words. This Draft was written not too long before I left....at a time when Pappy was coming into chat...going off on rants about IF YOU DONT WANT NATIVE UNITY YOU CAN ALL F*&K OFF, THIS IS NOT A DATING SITE etc etc


Quote from MP...

Quote
I don't see how anyone can copyright comments submited by various people posted on a message board - or how anyone can copyright a political plan to unify Native people? How are people supposed to discuss the background and history of such a group without quoting the draft plan and comments made by the people who founded the group ?


I agree 100%...which is why I stated earlier in the thread that I had seen this, but I was still determined to post the info I had...this copyrights thing was never there until I brought Tribal here to NAFPS. It appeared after RQ came here and posted in Pappy's defense.

Quote from MP...

Quote
I'm not sure how Tribal America can have a copyright to this idea and Tsisqua can be the owner of a registered trademark of the same idea.


NAU that Pappy has on Tribal America, is nothing to do with NAU that I myself run. He agreed to no longer use the name, and has not stuck to his words....he agreed to many things....but unfortunately, the man is a coward...who seeks only money...even though he is selling up...voiding all memberships...memberships he is still asking payment for....but hey...lets not focus on that eh? Lets flick some more crap at me. I was wondering how long it would take before you fired up again.


Quote from MP...

Quote
Dear Native Brothers and Sisters, Tribal America lifetime upgrade is completely free for members with proof of native american ancestry, those working on reservation land (proof required), or anyone working for a native american business (proof required), and only a $10 lifetime upgrade fee (one time only) for all other members.
It also sounds like people involved in the NAU project that was a part of Tribal America were given the services others were charged for - free ...

Which NAU Project are you referring to? Please state clearly which one you speak of since there are TWO. All I know from being there myself in the past...and from mails we are passed from members of NAU who are still Tribal Members, or admin who just left due to abuse from other admin and non native members...is that even Native people are asked for money...despite the claim that native people can join for free....native people are asked over and over again for a renewal of membership fees....there is no exceptions as Pappy may claim...but then...you'd need to be a member there to know these things, instead of quoting what you presume to be correct. Ive posted mails from TsoDine...who is Navajo...who was asked for 50 bucks...also Granny posted an email they sent to her requiring membership fees.

Quote from MP...

Quote
( no idea what a "sort priority " is , but that seems to be what TA was charging for...)

The sort Priority is where pappy arranges profiles according to how much that member donates...ie if you donate 50 bucks a month....you get to be on the second page of listings...if you donate 200 bucks a month...you make the front page....isnt that great stuff? And yes....they ask for donations monthly....regular emails are sent out to members.

Quote from MP...

Quote
Option #4 - Native American Unity Program
For members that can provide a specific activity as members of this network that will help to support the growth of the network and the goal of native american unity can be provided a complementary upgrade to their sort priority.


This is new....but its no surprise.

Quote from MP...

Quote
Maybe this is just a coincidence - but based on the number of members NAU began with, it looks like NAU got it's initial membership directly from Tribal America ...


And I clearly stated...many native people left Tribal America due to the abuse of natives by non natives....do you have an issue with this? We created NAU FOR the native members there who were tired of the crap...is this a problem??

Quote from MP...

Quote
Now...with over 7 thousand members....they want 50 bucks a piece?? That's 350,000 bucks right there!! To run a web site??
Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2008, 07:59:12 am
Tsisqua
Quote
before I opened NAU...we already had over 7000 members of various other groups which we incorporated into NAU

lol....too funny...so you think that I took 7000 members from Tribal Americas 7000 members...which would leave them with ermmmmm....no members?? lol  But why would I want his non native members, members who abuse people....drunks who troll chat rooms, who harrass woman...who pick fights with natives?? I dont...Pappy is welcome to them. Now...If you'd like to quote me correctly...I stated "From various other groups" not from Tribal America...my how you like to make assumptions eh? You sure do you best MP to try to discredit me whenever you smell an opportunity...lol....maybe one day you may even find something factual...but I doubt it. Incidently I might add...you clearly have stated in the past that you do not believe we have an extensive memberlist...you posted 23 members was it? from our forum when we first opened up NAU? You insinuated I was being untruthful about our memberlist amount...and now you have decided to change tactics...lol...dont you just enjoy this MP?

Quote from MP...

Quote
I don't now much about website ownership, domain names and who owns a membership list , or about copyright and registered trademarks so maybe this is just a dumb question, but, if Tribal America is now being sold, would that sale include Tribal America's Native American Unity project?
Pappy NAU Project?

lol He uses the name...but what is he ACTUALLY doing? Can you see anything regarding Native Unity on his site? In his chat rooms? Can you? Apart from his crappy little Statement? He is selling all his domains, names, sites, addresses.....and non of them are anything to do with me or NAU.


Quote from MP...

Quote
It seems quite strange seeing people claiming to be able to own and sell ideas which have to do with Native culture, community , identities and the supposedly unified political voice of Native people. I'm not sure what the implications of that may be , but it does make me wonder...


Well excuse my french...but Pappy is an a-hole....charging for memberships is wrong...we've proven with NAU that there is NO MONEY INVOLVED EVER...its not needed...a site can be run on time alone...Al stated at the start of this thread that he found it disturbing how Pappy owned so many domains etc...and could possibly intend to sell them...which now...he is...maybe its time people started listening to what Ive been saying about Tribal America all along...and got off their butts and did something about it...instead of playing armchair activist.

Tsissy (Proud Owner Of NAU)
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 09, 2008, 11:39:44 pm
Quote from MP...

Quote
Quote
How much are you willing to give? - Clearly, Native Unity is needed.
Clearly, our people could have a strong, powerful voice thru unity.
Clearly, we could bring about huge changes for our people. Our
Ancestors fought for the same, and SOME of our people fight for the
same now. So what is the problem? It does not matter if you are a
full blood, half blood, a quarter blood, green blood, yellow blood,
orange blood, whatever blood!....All that matters is you STAND UP AND
UNITE!! Everyone has a little time to spare. Everyone has the desire
in their heart to see our people united and strong! We are not asking
you for money, for your personal possessions, for your first born
child (lol)...just a little TIME and EFFORT...and for you to use your
strength of spirit to join with us! Please, join with us, attend the
next Native Unity Meeting...at least give an idea of when you are
able to attend and we can work around you. One people! One voice!
Tsisqua.

Clearly I state...I was asking only of members TIME and EFFORT...but no doubt you think this is wrong...since you insinuate I havent posted this for no doubt some really terrible reason....lol...I state that clearly native unity is needed....I was receiving anywhere from 20 upwards complaints per day regarding abuse by non natives....but how dare I try to help eh?...lol...you know I should thank you MP...because all you seem to do is indicate just how much hard work and effort I really put into uniting native people...and making a safe place for natives to go to...infact since you started trying to discredit me...all you've served to do is give NAU more publicity and attract more members....so really...Yes...I owe you a big thank you....so thank you :) I appreciate :)
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Lonefeather on June 10, 2008, 12:38:03 am
Firstly, allow me to introduce myself, as I am aware not introducing yourself is frowned upon....I am Lonefeather.When certain other members decide that they are willing to give up their personal information, I will be more then willing to make everyone aware of my marital status, location, real name...and heck, even my social security number.

Secondly, in light of recent posts, I feel inclined to suggest that perhaps the focus of the Tribal America issues are being overlooked and instead, focus is being placed on the one person who has brought these issues to light... in the form of a personal attack.

I have had the both the displeasure of being a member of TA a few months back, and the pleasure of being a current member of NAU.I can assure you that TA was and still is being mismanaged by non natives.I left there for several reasons.I do not agree with the fact that Pappy is a self proclaimed chief or that he appoints certain members and gives them the title of being an "Elder" within the group.Many times, I was asked for donations to keep the site running although it was considered a non-profit organization.And, lets not forget to mention the fact that there was constant verbal abuse of native people, including myself, by non native people.These antics have not changed.

I known Tsisqua and her family for a time now.I knew of her efforts in TA, the many hours she spent working for our people ( and by our people I mean NATIVE people, not wannabes).She continues to do so at NAU, all in the name of Unity, without payment, and many times without so much as a thank you. Tsissy and NAU do not ask for donations of any kind and never will. There are thousands of members. This should tell you something.So instead of trying to discredit her with your reposted quotes and accusations...perhaps you should be focused on the matter at hand.

With Respect,
Lonefeather (NAU Administration)

Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 10, 2008, 03:35:57 am
Tsisqua, I don't understand why you get so hostile when people ask you what seem to
me to be reasonable questions. It would help if you would stop reading malicious intentions in there i don't have.

I mainly posted what I did because I don't know if the information is relevent, but I want it to be available to people in case it is.

Actually I've refrained from posting some of the accusations I found over on tribal America that named people and claimed Native people were being abused by non natives. It seems very similar to most message board in that lots of people over there were claimimg to feel abused. There is thin bloods complaining of being abused by full bloods and fullbloods claiming to be abused by thin bloods and Whites and Mexicans and Puerto Ricans complaining they don't feel welcome. From what I saw , people of all races were reporting experiencing hostility at TA for at least a year .   

I'm not saying people didn't get abused over there, but nothing you posted showed any actual abuse. All I read, was people complaining they felt abused. Well yes I agree there is lots of people commenting on that over there, but it is the same sort of stuff that happens on many message boards.

If I wanted to discredit you I would have posted some of these accusations which named names ... And your name did come up in several posts where accusations of abuse were made - but - people in cyberspace accuse people of all sorts of stuff and if people don't read the whole interaction I don't think it's fair to make judgments about who did what to who. And I don't know what may have been removed.  For example here you are accusing me of some agenda to discredit you -  Nope. Not at all ... So an accusation or a perception that some attack or abuse happened isn't necessarily true. I just notice when things don't add up and it bothers me. It makes me think either I don't have all the facts or someone is not being truthful. Either way there is a problem , so I ask about it.

For example , it isn't clear how you got from feeling this on November 8 2007

ttp://www.tribalamerica.com/cgi-bin/fp.pl?fn=f&tp=2020&m=

Tsisqua
Quote
Re: Support Chief Pappy - I have read the posting Sparrow and I whole heartedly agree...Pappy without a shadow of a doubt deserves the honorary title of 'Chief Pappy' for all he does for us here, for our people, the constant never ending hard work and sacrifice Pappy makes to unite our people, all the things he does behind the scenes that people here do not realise or know of to keep this site going...I am proud to have him as a brother, proud to stand beside him....no matter Pappy's origin, he truly is Native in Heart and Spirit, and as I say so very often in chat and various other places here....it is not blood quantum, origin etc that determines who you are....but your heart....and we all know Pappy has a heart of pure gold. Very seldom do we come across such people as Chief Pappy...honor him we must...we love you Pappy! ??Tsisqua?? (2007-11-08 12:58:57.88926) 

To feeling he is a self proclaimed Chief and this is a problem, on Dec 22 , 2007
    
Tribal America
« on: December 22, 2007, 04:08:58 pm
Tsisqua
Quote
The issue here, is the owners/overseers of this site. Chief pappy, a self proclaimed Chief, is from India, not in the least Native American although he takes great pleasure in appearing on webcam wearing an eagle feather in a headband, and has no trouble taking money from Native people.

As I think I said before, many dating websites charge a fee. I'm not sure that is abusive though the archived webpage that advertised a 10$ membership to non natives to talk to "Live Indians" who supposedly got a free membership did seem to verge on being exploitive.

I do wonder about any group which claims to represent a united Native voice which says it doesn't care if people have green yellow or orange blood, as it seems this could be largely a group of PODIAs , or even non natives claiming to be PODIAs, but as long as people were careful to support the recognized tribes and not come in with their own agendas and entitlements , maybe this could work in a good way. I'm not sure. 

I don't want to fight with you . A lot of what you are doing seems to be good things. Just some things don't seem to add up. I'm not saying there is any wrong doing going on here , just some things seem peculiar, and i want to make sure the information about this past history is not  lost so people can come to their own conclusions.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 10, 2008, 04:07:43 am
Quote
Quote from MP

Re: Support Chief Pappy - I have read the posting Sparrow and I whole heartedly agree...Pappy without a shadow of a doubt deserves the honorary title of 'Chief Pappy' for all he does for us here, for our people, the constant never ending hard work and sacrifice Pappy makes to unite our people, all the things he does behind the scenes that people here do not realise or know of to keep this site going...I am proud to have him as a brother, proud to stand beside him....no matter Pappy's origin, he truly is Native in Heart and Spirit, and as I say so very often in chat and various other places here....it is not blood quantum, origin etc that determines who you are....but your heart....and we all know Pappy has a heart of pure gold. Very seldom do we come across such people as Chief Pappy...honor him we must...we love you Pappy! ??Tsisqua?? (2007-11-08 12:58:57.88926)


This was posted while I was trying to create unity...I hadnt been in tribal long....infact I was only there a total of two months in all...why is it MP you always copy and paste...find postings from as far back as possible...and post them claiming their relevance to comments made to date? I did not know of the abuse taking place at that time...I did not know of the money being repeatedly asked for at that time...we all make mistakes...myself included...and once I saw what was going on..I got out....as anyone with a brain also did...I was simply trying to do the right thing...something to help our people...and it seems that no matter what I do...its just not good enough for some people...people who are not even native...but you know what? Its all good...because no matter what you...or anyone else has to say...I will continue doing the right thing...I will continue working long hours for free....maybe one day you too will find a purpose...something you were raised to believe in.

Quote
Quote from MP

As I think I said before, many dating websites charge a fee. I'm not sure that is abusive though the archived webpage that advertised a 10$ membership to non natives to talk to "Live Indians" who supposedly got a free membership did seem to verge on being exploitive.

Perhaps not...but you also dont seem to think its exploitive for a man to ask for a lifetime membership...then RECHARGE all lifetime members...and then up the fee once more just for good measure either.

Quote
Quote from MP

I do wonder about any group which claims to represent a united Native voice which says it doesn't care if people have green yellow or orange blood, as it seems this could be largely a group of PODIAs , but as long as people were careful to support the recognized tribes and not come in with their own agendas and entitlements , maybe this could work in a good way. I'm not sure.


All my words there meant...was the fact that I have no issue with blood quantum...that was my point...others got it...but not you.


As for my apparent 'Hostility' (which is not as you claim when 'people' ask me questions...you are the only one who does so...not others here...just you...on every thread I post on...no matter the topic...there you are) perhaps its something to do with the way you attack native people here, the way you answer to no one here, yet all must answer to you, perhaps it has to do with the way postings are changed, deleted, and members are no longer permitted to post in defense of accusations made...you have made many accusations and insinuations regarding myself and NAU....yet we are not a 'tribe' we are not asking for membership fees, we are not asking for donations...and this post was brought here to raise awareness regarding what IS actually taking place on another site who abuse native peoples...if you cannot see that...and feel its just the SSDD just like on other sites...well thats your choice...as you say...people will make up their own minds on this. Other people have spoke up...but you want to focus on me and NAU...yeah...lets just forget the 10 buck fee...the 50 buck fee...the 99 buck fee...the sale of all those domains...the abuse...RQ coming here in blatently lying claiming they never and do not charge a fee...lets forget all that MP...and play your little game. I will no longer answer to you...NAU is doing nothing wrong....and if it were...you would be the first posting it to gloat...but since there is nothing to find and you keep hitting a dead end...you're doing all you can to 'try' to show me in a bad light...and then claiming innocence...lol..well keep looking sweetie...you will find nothing.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: bls926 on June 12, 2008, 03:21:31 pm
Wasn't going to get into this mess, but have had a nagging question for the past couple months that needs to be asked. Tsisqua, if Native American Unity was/is associated with Tribal America, why did you give your new group that name? Didn't you think there would be some fall-out over that? Didn't you think anyone would wonder if y'all were associated with the original Native American Unity/Tribal America? While Native American Unity does have a good sound to it, I think I'd have distanced myself from Chief Pappy and Tribal America. I would not have used a name they'd been using. Just wondering why y'all decided to go with that name.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 12, 2008, 03:26:39 pm
It wasnt a name he was using...it was the group I created within Tribal for Native people while there....its a name he no longer has the right to use...and since the hard work myself and some of our staff of other groups was well known through NAU...and our members left with us....the name stayed with us....we created it...we worked on it...Pappy did nothing....so we used what we had and expanded it into a new site. I blankly refuse to leave the name with this man and create a new one. I hope that answers your question bls.

Added note...things Pappy has posted now regarding Native Unity...are things he's added to his site since we left...the day I left there...I took down all our work...deleted it all from his site...which some of the previously posted comments from other members show...and infact Pappy's own words on the matter...I think he posted something like I had no right to remove my work and words from his site...I havent time to look for it...but its on the begining of this thread pretty much.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: bls926 on June 12, 2008, 04:21:53 pm
Thanks for your reply, Tsisqua. I'd never been to the Tribal America site; wasn't sure who'd come up with the Native American Unity name. However, isn't Tribal America still using it? Isn't it one of the domain names they have for sale now?

From a google search, I see that Tribal America can only be accessed thru cached pages. Seems they still have their Yahoo group going strong. Mass-mailing of e-mails, etc. Many have wondered how Tribal America got their e-mail addresses and why they were invited to join.

Tribal_America · Tribal America   
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tribal_America/messages


Edit to add:

Native American Unity isn't one of the domain names Raj Gulati has for sale now. It's just all the Tribal America.coms he'd bought up earlier.

I re-read this thread and saw where Tsisqua said that Tribal America the yahoo group isn't part of Tribal America the website. That yahoo group still looks a bit off to me. The group was formed on May 30, 2008. Sent out e-mail invitations to dozens, maybe hundreds, of people. When people joined and asked how they got their e-mail address, whose site it was, who the moderators were, etc, there was no response. On June 5th Barbara VanderWel welcomed all newcomers to the site; no mention of it being her site though. On June 6th she implied that she was a moderator, in reply to someone's statement that all members were asked to post a picture, but there were no pictures of moderators. It wasn't until yesterday that VanderWel actually stated it was her site. Almost two weeks to admit that it's your site? And still no answer to where she obtained the e-mail addresses. Seems shady to me. Are we positive this yahoo group is not affiliated with the website?


Edit to add something else:

Tribal America
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tribal_America/

Yahoo 360 - Barbara VanderWel
http://360.yahoo.com/profile-Lg0GFPozerTQu6CRBqlEhcljYTqMSKaVLooJrmv44Q--?cq=1

True, the Yahoo 360 profile hasn't been updated since January 17, 2007; but could someone have changed that much in a year and a half?


Barbara Ellen
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=89065575

Tribal America
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tribal_America/message/75

Both mention her son by name and his birth date.


So, who is Barbara VanderWel? How did she get access to so many e-mail addresses?
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 12, 2008, 07:18:53 pm
Its not the same group apparently....AL asked about that also...so I sent in some of our members to ask the admin in the Tribal Chat room...and they knew nothing of this yahoo group...admin that have been there for over 6+ years....I think perhaps its just a coincidence of name.....although how they obtained peoples emails etc I have no clue...we dont spam for members of our own groups...I find it unethical...people join if they wish...you cant bug people till they do...lol

I dont know what Pappy is still using there...I havent looked around since he changed the layout...freezes my pc to be honest...as for his domains and what he bought/is selling etc...this was only made known to me when Al posted a list at the begining of this thread...I was as surprised as anyone...but the sale of them surprises me not...where there's a quick buck to be made...Pappy will be there.  Pappy may be using the name NAU or NU still...but they dont actually do anything with it if that makes sense...seems to be a name they throw around some...there's no active group of people involved in unity etc there...he was never involved until I first told him I was leaving...a couple weeks before I actually left...which was when he drew up his draft on Unity (a draft I still cant get my head around)....I was sick of doing all the leg work, drawing in new members...while he sat and allowed them to be ill treated once there.

I think...in the right hands Tribal could be a good place...there are some good native people there...the same goes for any internet site/group etc....but we heard today its being sold to a white man from GA....I doubt the name NAU will be used there much longer....I guess we'll see eh?

I just saw your edit before posting this...I dont know the name Barbara VanderWel/Ellen....but I can ask around....Its not a name im familiar with from Tribal anyways...but someone else may know of her so I'll look into it. My guess is she or her admin are something to do with many other sites....perhaps admin who have access to an email/membership list? I dont think Al was ever a member of Tribal...but they found his email address and sent him an invite too as far as I know (Although I could be wrong)....so Im not too sure.

The picture on the group at Tribal America of the women on the main page....surely isnt the same woman from the profile you just posted? They're different colors for a start.....is Barbara the woman who owns the group?

I also noticed many members of the yahoo group have left...or have complained/asked how their emails have been obtained...and why they've been invited etc...Theres alot of questions...I think I may join myself and just ask them.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 12, 2008, 07:23:54 pm
Well...I joined...and tried to post a message asking if they are connected to TribalAmerica.com....also asking how they managed to obtain so many email addresses etc...but all messages need to be approved my admin first...I guess I'll wait and see if they post it.

Added: I just found this which is kinda odd.

Quote
Re: [tribal_America] Re: New Comers


Let us all calm down and find out what's goin on...this is not supposed to happen...i find myself a moderator of a group i never joined...i've not been on the computer for about three weeks due to illness...and i come on to find this happening...strange...lol..but i gotta laugh...laughter is healing...and this is definately a shock...love and blessings...your sister in Spirit Wren..

--- On Fri, 6/6/08, susan Lake <wrenlk_ssn@...> wrote:

From: susan Lake <wrenlk_ssn@...>
Subject: [tribal_America] Re: New Comers
To: Tribal_America@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 8:24 PM


---I agree! this is ludracris... and so very wierd..if i didn't
think there were folks here of good heart i would have unsubbed
immediately. ..what's a happinin folks?...how' de this happen!...this
is wierd....how can someone sub me into a group and make me
moderator with out my knowledge... i'm reporting this...but.. .how are
you other folks handling this? ...love and blessings from a shocked
tribal elder...Wren ^v^ In Tribal_America@ yahoogroups. com, "Ingrid
Helene" <helene072001@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> My name is Ingrid and I have been added to this group without
> permission by someone named black_injun if I remember right
because
> this person is not even in the members list anymore, she/he
somehow
> unsubscribed but was there the day I got invited, I got to see
her/his
> profile but it didn't say much. It seems that someone just grabbed
our
> email addresses from other groups that they are subscribed to. I
am
> sure there is a way of downloading everyones address and sending
them
> an invite email to a new group. Like myself, I belong to a group
> called Lakhota which I subscribed to a couple of years ago but I
am
> not actively involved at this time. Perhaps the person grabbed all
> email addresses from this group and other groups. One of the
> moderators in this group seems to be Barbara Ellen Vanderwel. She
> seems to have been welcoming everyone aboard. Maybe she can let us
> know how she became the moderator of this group and who she has
been
> in contact with. You can go into Members and click Moderators and
it
> will give you a list of all the subscribed moderators.
>
> I myself am not native american. I am German/Belgian and I am
first
> generation here in the US. All my relatives are overseas. I have
> always had an interest and a passion for Native American culture
and I
> am always eager to learn.
>
> Hope everyone has a wonderful day and please don't let anyone's
> comment ruin your mood. Let the words flow over you like water on
a
> duck's back or feathers. Ingrid
>
>
> --- In Tribal_America@ yahoogroups. com, "Barbara Ellen VanderWel"
> <barbara_ellen_ vanderwel@ > wrote:
> >
> > I would like to wc all newcomers to the group
> >
>

 

So people are being made members there...and being appointed as admin without their knowledge? Odd. I know from our own Yahoo group...that if a member sends out an invite...that person has to click accept...you dont just automatically make people members because theres no way to do that...as for making them admin...well most would ask the person first.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: bls926 on June 12, 2008, 09:12:15 pm
I've never heard of Barbara Ellen VanderWel either. There's enough on all three sites to say it's the same person. The picture she's using for Tribal America is definitely not the one in her Yahoo 360 profile or on her myspace.  Wonder why?
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 12, 2008, 10:36:41 pm
No clue...I actually thought the pic was of a woman in Tribal with the ID of "Oh Girl"....she had some past pics on her profile not too different to the one on the main page there...kinda glam shots of a larger native lady very similar looking as far as I can remember....but Im not saying its the same person.....just reminded me of her is all.....the pic on the main screen of the group....does Barbara claim its her? Because you're right...its not the same woman at all...no way it could be from what I saw. She still hasnt posted my questions yet either.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: frederica on June 13, 2008, 02:14:15 am
I received an invited from this list over a week ago, it was from dark_Indian who was named as a moderator. You had to accept the invitation or not. I didn't.  Lost of new groups get your name off other member lists.  As unless the list is closed you can just look at the members and send as many as you want. I would have no idea how people could be assigned to a group without your knowledge. Now that sounds weird. They would have to have access to your email, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: bls926 on June 13, 2008, 05:10:16 am
No clue...I actually thought the pic was of a woman in Tribal with the ID of "Oh Girl"....she had some past pics on her profile not too different to the one on the main page there...kinda glam shots of a larger native lady very similar looking as far as I can remember....but Im not saying its the same person.....just reminded me of her is all.....the pic on the main screen of the group....does Barbara claim its her? Because you're right...its not the same woman at all...no way it could be from what I saw. She still hasnt posted my questions yet either.


VanderWel never said that the picture on the main page of Tribal America was her's. However, she did state that it is her site. Whose picture would you expect to be on the main page? No one else has claimed ownership of that yahoo group, so I think it's safe to assume that she's the sole owner.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: bls926 on June 13, 2008, 05:17:19 am
I received an invited from this list over a week ago, it was from dark_Indian who was named as a moderator. You had to accept the invitation or not. I didn't.  Lost of new groups get your name off other member lists.  As unless the list is closed you can just look at the members and send as many as you want. I would have no idea how people could be assigned to a group without your knowledge. Now that sounds weird. They would have to have access to your email, as far as I know.


Funny thing about this "dark_Indian" or "black_injun" . . . He invited all these people to join this yahoo group where he was a moderator, and then he booked. Several people on the site stated that's who invited them, but when they joined and looked for his name, he was nowhere to be found. This whole thing sounds really suspicious to me.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: educatedindian on June 13, 2008, 01:29:07 pm
This seems to be be her myspace page. Also found comments she left on a PBS show about Trudell, high school reunion pages, couple petitions about NDN rights. Says she is Chiricahua. No sign of anything to do with Pappy and his bunch I can see.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=89065575
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 13, 2008, 01:54:36 pm
From what I can see of her friends list...I dont recognize anyone from Tribal there....so I think its just name related.

But I still find it odd how so many were invited...made members without their say so...without clicking accept...and made admin without their knowledge....like I said before...you receive an invitation...one you either accept or decline...there's a choice.

The main pic...Im sure I saw another group on Yahoo with the same pic...I was thinking about it last night while trying to sleep...yes my life is that sad...lol...Im sure theres another group that has something to do with Native Singles and has the same pic...I'll look around and see if I can locate it...I could be wrong...its just Ive seen that picture somewhere before....either it is Oh Girl from Tribal...which im dubious about....or its from another group.

They havent posted my question still...infact no comments have been posted at all...its still set to 65 new messages...as it was yesterday...although I doubt I'll get an answer...as no one else seems to have thus far.

I read peoples comments on the Dark_Indian....kinda odd...I guess he's just obtained bulk emails from other groups and invited members that way....as for clearing out once members showed up...I dont know what to think about that....its just all odd.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 15, 2008, 12:29:07 pm
I just received this regarding TribalAmerican.com

Quote
At 10:08am on June 15th, 2008, HeyokaBoy said…
Hi Tssisy
i'm sorry i missed you all last night and friday, had some gigs and that. i hope to get on tonight.
chi pisa chula,

chuquai
p.s.
i got a message from "tribal america":

Dear Friend,

Please help spread the word about Tribal America, a completely free native american community portal, by forwarding this message to all your friends and family. Anyone receiving this message is requested to do the same, again forward it on to yet more people.

Tribal America is 100% minority woman owned and 100% free for all members.

Visit This Url: http://tribalamerica.org

Ms. Anju
support@tribalamerica.com

Cheeky buggars! chuquai

So....I guess we are to presume after Pappy asking for the large membership fees....and sent out many repetitive emails requesting from 50 - 99 bucks per member...they've now decided to become a free site?? Am I missing something here?
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: RunningQuail on June 15, 2008, 05:52:25 pm
There is a saying of........beware of those who do protest too much.   And protesting you have certainly done Tsisqua.  It is very easy to convieniontly leave out posts as to give the people reading them a one sided view.  It is also very easy to lie, this you have also done.

I quote them............members of NAU who are still Tribal Members, or admin who just left due to" ABUSE FROM OTHER ADMINS" and non native members.

I know the admin you are referring to in the above sentence and I know that she never recieved any abuse from another admin.  In fact, she will back that up herself if need be.

Another quote...........at a time when Pappy was coming into chat...going off on rants about IF YOU DONT WANT NATIVE UNITY YOU CAN ALL F*&K OFF, THIS IS NOT A DATING SITE etc etc

Pappy has never used that kind of language in our chat room and that can also be backed up.  Give me the date Tsisqua and I will get the chat logs.

Another quote..........covorting himself on main screen wearing his Eagle Feather headband, whilst the other admins got drunk and stomped to pow wow music for all to see...until of course native members left in disgust.

No admins got drunk and stomped to pow wow music and no members left in disqust.  I know the people that where their.  None of this happened.   


Another quote............The NAU Mission Statement, was written by Pappy, not me, infact, I failed to even understand his words. This Draft was written not too long before I left

This clearly shows when the NAU Misson statement was being written.  This was taken off the pages on this site that Tsisqua posted herself............... NAU Mission Statement (Draft) - I have posted a draft mission statement for Tribal America and the Native American Unity project, and would like feedback as to what statements need to be changed, what needs to be added, what doesn't make sense, etc. We want o work the mission statement and success criteria with the guidance of our online family right here at Tribal America. Please view the link and posted your feedback on this forum thread. The link can be found at tribalamerica.com/nau.html. Sincerely, Chief Pappy (2006 - Replies: 12)  It clearly shows this was being written in 2006 and Tsisqua left around the end of 2007.

 You speak of MB copying and pasting past posts, but it doesn't seem to matter when you do the same thing.  Making it look like something that happened recently when you do that and it could have happened months before, many months. I do not have to defend Tribal America.org as I know what we are about and what we are trying to do to help all our Natives Sisters an Brothers.  As do our many members that are with us today. 

I must speak up though when you, Tsisqua, tell your half truths and total lies. You are a liar,your not  to be trusted and this will come around to you Tsisqua.  People will believe what the choose to believe so maybe this post will fall on deaf ears and that is ok.  It is ok because I know my words are true and a liar has been exposed.  Now it is up to individuals to look for the truth and not to follow blindly the liar.

AHO
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 15, 2008, 06:31:14 pm
Oh how NICE to see you again RQ....the last time you came here you told barefaced lies...which have been proven by your words claiming you do not charge for membership EVER...and then we have all the RECENT  mails (which are dated) asking for money repeatedly for membership...from Native members and non native alike...not much has changed has it deary?...CLAP CLAP CLAP...Pappy still hiding behind your skirt is he? You've ran around Tribal and deleted information...changed information to suit yourselves...banned members for speaking up and questioning you and Pappy about it...and you continue to do so...BIG SHOCK! YAWWWNNNNNNN! Boring!

Added: I see you neglect to mention others who have also posted here and varified Pappy's behavior on main screen and the abuse from admin....Lonefeather and Diana...but then...you never did like them did you? When they too spoke up....you banned them both...how curious...not to mention MANY others.....hmmmmm!

Perhaps you'd like to answer the questions Educated Indian asked of you the last time you popped in to run to Pappy's defense?? Questions you neglected to answer?

Quote from EducatedIndian

Quote
RQ, there are some questions I'd like to ask you. Much of that site does not seem to be New Age (though some of the people are). Instead it seems like there's a lot of very old "wisdom of the Indians" nonsense that seems like it was written in the 1920s or even before.

As I posted before, a couple things disturb me about the site:

Gulati buying up dozens of domain names, such as tribalhealer.com or tribalfunding.com. I don't see any reason for this except looking to make money by reselling them.

People being able to apply to be "tribal elders" at the site. That is not your right. It belongs to people of a tribe to say who elders are.

And yes, calling a non-Native a "chief" is offensive on a couple levels. Again, it's like something out of 1920.

How did anyone decide to call him Pappy also? That invites confusion with the real Chief Pappy, Pappy Hicks of the Texas Cherokee.

There are also literally dozens of good places for NDNs to meet and discuss.

Let me just re-quote one of the above comments: Gulati buying up dozens of domain names, such as tribalhealer.com or tribalfunding.com. I don't see any reason for this except looking to make money by reselling them.

Oh wait a minute....that's right...he's already doing it!

And....heck....lets also look at the membership fees that you DONT charge according to your own words....that have gone up and up....while the whole time Pappy has been SELLING tribal America....yes...that's correct...asking for huge membership fees...knowing full well he's selling up and these memberships will be VOID.

But no...there's nothing going on is there honey.....yup...I just made it ALL up...lol...your members words...your emails...heck...I'll bet I even posted your own lies on your own post eh?....Grow a spine RQ
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: RunningQuail on June 15, 2008, 08:32:37 pm
Anyone can visit Tribal America.org and view information about our site and will find that the posting below is there.

Dear Member,

 Tribal America is a 100% minority woman owned native american community website that provides a unique completely free online meeting space for persons of native american ancestry and persons interested in meeting other native americans.

First established in 1998 and kept running with minimum funds, Tribal America is a family safe website and welcomes participation from members of all backgrounds, ages, and preferences.

Please note that we do not send notifications regarding your inbox or profile views, so you will need to login again to see if someone has viewed you or sent you a message.

All member inquiries are handled by e-mail. Please send your inquiry, comment, or feedback to support@tribalamerica.com. Please be sure to include your member #.

Please help support Tribal America by using the Tell Friend link and by sending in a donation. None of these are required to be a member, but please remember we do need your help to stay online.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Ms. Anju

Tribal America.org is not associated with a yahoo group named, TRIBALAMERICA


Tsisqua I am not going to add to your hate that you are spreading here. Like I stated earliar, I have no need to defend Tribal America.org.  People will believe what they choose to.  For me, no I didn't lie when I stated that the membership was free.  At the time that was posted the site was free Tsisqua and you know darn well it was.  This is just another example of you twisting posts around to get away with your lies.  You will not be able to continue twisting things to suit your needs. It has already been pointed out to you by members here that they have noticed what you are doing with the posts.  Why is that necessary Tsisqua if what you are posting is the truth as you say it is?  To tell one lie you have to tell another and then another and it will catch up with you. That is what I like about being honest,you never have to worry about what you have said.  Like I said, It will come around to you.

OH, and last time I checked my spine is intact. LOLOLOL  And yes Deary, this is getting boringggggggggggggggg. YAWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN  LOL
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 15, 2008, 08:45:00 pm
Quote
Anyone can visit Tribal America.org and view information about our site and will find that the posting below is there.

Dear Member,

 Tribal America is a 100% minority woman owned native american community website that provides a unique completely free online meeting space for persons of native american ancestry and persons interested in meeting other native americans.

First established in 1998 and kept running with minimum funds, Tribal America is a family safe website and welcomes participation from members of all backgrounds, ages, and preferences.

Please note that we do not send notifications regarding your inbox or profile views, so you will need to login again to see if someone has viewed you or sent you a message.

All member inquiries are handled by e-mail. Please send your inquiry, comment, or feedback to support@tribalamerica.com. Please be sure to include your member #.

Please help support Tribal America by using the Tell Friend link and by sending in a donation. None of these are required to be a member, but please remember we do need your help to stay online.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Ms. Anju

Tribal America.org is not associated with a yahoo group named, TRIBALAMERICA

So...answer this question....WHO SENT OUT THE MAILS TO ALL YOUR MEMBERS ASKING FOR MEMBERSHIP FEES?? Not to mention asking for a RENEWAL of membership fees even though all members had paid for LIFETIME memberships?? Its all there on your little forum dear...its all posted here too...your members complaining....we have all the emails...so do your members...asking for money respeatedly....explain THAT RQ?

You point to something posted on your website...as if this makes everything ok...but you send our bulk mails to all your members saying something different. Do you NOT see the concern here?


Quote
For me, no I didn't lie when I stated that the membership was free.  At the time that was posted the site was free Tsisqua and you know darn well it was.

I myself was asked for a membership fee RQ....as was my fiance Eli...Diana...Lonefeather...Blade...Nate...Skylar...Matty...Heyoka...TsoDine...and about 50 more people I can mention who can ALL provide proof of this....and your forum also clearly shows that WAY BACK at the begining of the site you charged a membership fee...and these members REFUSED to pay AGAIN....for something said to be LIFELONG.

Sigh....this is tedious....you are doing nothing more but proving my point.


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To tell one lie you have to tell another and then another and it will catch up with you.

Well observed...I am glad you can see this trait in yourself...if anyone wishes to judge...all they have to do is read the WHOLE thread...your own words...words from your own members...your own emails...I rest my case.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 15, 2008, 08:47:58 pm
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But no...there's nothing going on is there honey.....yup...I just made it ALL up...lol...your members words...your emails...heck...I'll bet I even posted your own lies on your own post eh?....Grow a spine RQ
Quote
OH, and last time I checked my spine is intact. LOLOLOL  And yes Deary, this is getting boringggggggggggggggg. YAWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN  LOL

You know... I see some problems with both Tribal America and NAU ...

It would be good if everybody could answer the questions that get asked without side stepping them and diverting attention from themselves by pointing fingers at other people. We all have room for improvement .

Perhaps both groups have the potential to do some good, but personally i am really uncomortable when people discuss this stuff and instead of staying with the issues they are verbally abusive and needlessly inflamatory. We have enough real problems to deal with on this board without people going out of their way to creat hostility by making sarcastic and disrespectful comments.

Personally I participate here in the hopes of achieving more cooperation through education - and the on line equvilant of scratching and hair pulling is only going to create resentment . I find just being careful to tell the truth and  be kind and polite is very effective.

I will probably have some more to say about this but there 's some other stuff I need to do first ...

Hey Tsisqua we do have something in common ....we both like dots.... LOL
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 15, 2008, 09:07:11 pm
Its my trademark unfortunately...lol...I just cant seem to help using them...lol

I would just like to say though....I havent seen anywhere on this whole board where you MP have called me a liar....so I kinda find that insinuation from RQ insulting....and misleading....I may not agree with the way you ask questions...nor may you agree with the way I reply...we are both different people...and sometimes words written can be read in a tone of voice that may not be present at the time....and I am not without fault there...but you have never once stated "Tsisqua you are a liar".

NAU always has room for improvement...I wont deny that one bit...and I have asked on this board already...if anyone can see where we can improve...or where we are going wrong...to let us know and we'll fix it....I only ever received one message....a member had posted words from Brooke Medicine Shields (I think that's her name) and we removed it straight away...as soon as we were alerted.

I am not the only one who has spoken up here....and I wont be the last...I posted today a message from Heyoka...(Chuquai)....to be told Im a liar and my words posted regarding fees/abuse etc are untrue...even though we have proof from their own members and on their own forum etc. etc..which obviously annoyed the heck out of me....I think at the end of the day...as you have yourself stated...people will come to their own conclusions here....and I have no issue with that.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: RunningQuail on June 15, 2008, 09:24:41 pm
 Circumstances do change Tsisqua and this is what happened, so now no membership fee required.  I invite all who read this to come and visit Tribal America.org.  See what we are about and trying to accomplish for our Native Sisters and Brothers.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: frederica on June 15, 2008, 10:16:15 pm
Yep, MP they need to take their arguments off this list. Both can get boring with each other by PM.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 15, 2008, 10:16:53 pm
Well...Id like to inquire if all your new priced membership fees have been returned then? Because I know only around a month or so ago...you upped your price...and took in money from your members...has this money been returned? Are you a registered non profit organization? If not...does IRS know of this money? I know some members who have paid this fee...so I will email them now for varification also...to see if they have been reimbursed, and I know some of your members and ex members who still receive your mails to date....who were also asked for your "New Pricing Plan" rates....infact I have already posted Two of these mails on this thread recently from your members....mails that claimed if they did not pay this new fee...their already paid up in full LIFETIME memberships would be limitted...and I know these people will have no issue providing those emails here for varification purposes. Infact we have many members of NAU who are/were members of Tribal America who have received these mails. Could you answer those questions please?

Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 15, 2008, 11:14:28 pm
Just to show...(If anyone would like to check these forum postings, you will have to be a member to do so unfortunately...I went into this site on someone elses membership...so to post the link...would mean everyone here having access to that persons ID...which Im sure you can understand...)


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Topic #2075
New pricing plan? - I a little confused about the posting on the main page about a 'new pricing plan' When I joined this site it was a 'one-time charge' of $10.00. The way the posting reads, it sounds as if I am going to be charged to continue on this site. What happens if I don't upgrade? #163814
 

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#8188 Re: New pricing plan? - Okay, I appreciate the clarity that has been placed on the main page about the new pricing plan. I can assure you I will not be one to continue with this site, even as much as I enjoy it. I will pay no more than what was orginally asked of me when I joined.I don't appreicate being lied too and mislead when I originally joined. A lifetime membership is just that...for life. The charge was $10 to do so. It is wrong to go back and charge those members who joined in the past. If the site wants to change its pricing plan that is it choice, however, it should be done with the new members coming in, not with those who were already here and were told that they would only have to pay $10 to do so.If anyone knows of any other native sites out there that would be good to connect with please let me know. I prefer the ones that are honest and hold to their words!I am very disappointed in this and the wrongful actions that are being taken by the owners of this site. You cannot achieve your goal of 'one people one voice' when you are not honest and show deceit in the process, no trust can be established with such things. (2008-03-20 19:30:05.979678) #163814

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#8190 Re: New pricing plan? - This is Chief Pappy, if you previously upgraded, your status as a star member will be retained. Effective upon the change, all new members coming in or those that have not already upgraded will need to upgrade at least once to get full site privileges. Hope this clarifies things. Thanks. Chief Pappy. (2008-03-23 20:12:47.869498) #489

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#8192 Re: New pricing plan? - How do you upgrade without having to pay? (2008-03-24 03:55:13.062151) #163814

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#8193 Re: New pricing plan? - Members can upgrade for free by sending in or faxing in a copy of their native american id card, usually issued by their home rez, or a copy of a paystub from a native american owned and operated organization. (2008-03-24 08:17:01.512009) #489

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#8196 Re: New pricing plan? - I am sorry chief and others my tribal information my husband and I do not feel comfortable mailing information in to a site we are afraid of identity theft.We hate our cards the way it is....I feel strapped for my hubby and i belong here and we LOVE the people here this IS the best site. I am sorry we will not be able to pay. I would of liked to have a donation or someone have something each month up on the board to sell to donate to the site etc. to run on proceeds then to have all members giving one hundred dollars.I like to see things helped with members helping, but then...who am I.I hope you will decide to keep Tatanka and myself Iktomesapa. I know others are extremly upset by the money issue, maybe others can help find ways we can help run this site yet maintain our relationships? Any ideas ppl?Hugglers to you AllIktomesapa (2008-03-29 23:20:40.21756) #166717

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#8198 Re: New pricing plan? - You bring up a very good and wise point and one that does need to be taken very seriously. Not many people are going to be comfortable with releasing such personal information to those they do not know. Idenity theft is a very big issue in this country and I would not recommend to anyone to forward their personal ID information to anyone on this site or any other site. Also paystubs have listed on them your social security number also. I don't think the owners of this site gave thought to this with their request, but it was very thoughtful of you to post your concerns on the matter. (2008-03-30 12:52:26.40839) #163814

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#8199 Re: New pricing plan? - Tribal America does not need to see your private information including social security number etc. We simply need proof of tribal affiliation, either by id or by paystub. Instructions for the different ways to get an upgrade are available on the upgrade/donate page. As a last resort, please feel free to contact me directly by e-mail. Sincerely, Chief Pappy. (2008-03-30 15:23:37.419729) #489

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#8202 Re: New pricing plan? - i recently got to know this site was tribal singles before i didnt know that, i have signed in TS years ago and i have signed in TA longer time ago as well i came here cause friends recommended this site to me and i started to like it very much. i also recommended this site to other native friends i got and they are all members now.if i had the money i would pay but simply said i need every cent at moment.i have been sick a long time and in the same situation many natives are as well (im not native)-im unable to pay at moment, my bank wont gimme a cent, im selfemployed and gotto live on what i earn ( on some days i dont earn anything) i also started a second job to minimize or help me with my monthly fixcosts and ill have to get a third job for a while as well till my buisness ( im a veterinary ) recovers. opposite to the vets in the states or canada we are too many in my country and several fight to survive and make a living. if i had the money id move but i even cant that. if i had the money id pay but i seriously cant at moment afford. at this moment i wanted to thank that native friend who offered to pay this site for me but i couldnt take the offer cause i know he has to fight for a living himself.i cant give out my creditcardno on the internet and its of no use either cause my bank controlls where the money goes and takes it back as soon they realize i try to change euros into dollars. i can try to send in an envelope to the addy the admin gave me as soon i can afford( its needs years to recover a vetpractice here i even dont know if i can) but it mite get lost on postal way.i hope that at least the chat stays free cause i made many friends here and really like this site. okay i dont find more words to say to this topic, sorry, bee (2008-04-04 11:40:57.926493) #162982

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#8217 Re: New pricing plan? - I rarely come here now but have to voice my objections to the new pricing plan. When I joined via Scotland Singles way back in 2003 I paid for lifetime membership. That is exactly what I expect to be provided. If Raj wants to change the rules now I expect a refund of my membership payment. (2008-04-23 10:35:37.327965) #103350

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#8221 Re: New pricing plan? - I am struggling to understand here because it says that a NA can upgrade for free but no mention of other ethnicities. Are you hoping to allow NA's have a free site because we others are paying for it??? I'm not native but it sounds Racist besides other things...This site is supposed to be for NA's only but that's also Racist and the one off life time membership fee that people paid but are now being told they have to pay again is illegal and I will surely be investigating this further until it is resolved. This shouldn't be allowed, this site seems to create quite a bit of Racism as it is without the owners encouraging it. Or is that yr aim?????? Are the owners NA???? (2008-05-04 10:28:49.384967) Anon

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#8222 Re: New pricing plan? - Asking people to send in personal information is wrong and unacceptable and this site has changed somewhat since December last year in a negative way...Why??? I will not be paying for a membership here because the owners keep changing the rules around payment. Any business knows that when changing things money wise it should not affect the current customer and the rules that surround him/her unless the structure was made to be able to change things in the future affecting everyone. If someone pays for a lifetimes use then that is their legal right to do so. (2008-05-04 10:35:07.601842) Anon


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#8223 Re: New pricing plan? - ANON, this site is not racist and never has been. If you will look further into our site,we welcome Native Americans and our friends. We do this as to help those that are not Native Americans to learn from us and about us. Native Americans do and can get free membership, why, because we realize that many are not able to pay the fee and welcome them. Any personnal information that is sent showing a persons tribal status, can be blocked out. I can certainly tell you are NOT native by your words. We regreted having to ask members to re-uprade, but it was either get more money to run this site or shut it down. We opted to keep it running as we believe this site is valuable to many of our Native Sisters and Brothers and our friends. The only racism being created here is by you ANON. Investigate all you wish. If you will read about who owns this site, you will plainly see that they are not Native Americans. We have never tried to hide this fact. I believe it says alot about the people who own this site wanting to help Native Americans when they themselves are not. I admire and respect them for that very much. I am sure that I am not the only one here on the site that feels that way. No one is forcing you to visit this site. (2008-05-06 01:07:30.326987) #47103

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#8224 Re: New pricing plan? - I think the point 'Anon' is making is that if you give the service free to Native Americans and charge every other ethiticy, then that is a form of racism and, I do believe, against the 14th amendment. I think the other point 'Anon' is making is that there was no disclaimer, that I recall, stating that the meaning of the word lifetime was at the discreation of the site owner. I would also like to point out that we are not being asked to upgrade we are being made too. It is not a choice of not wanting to visit the site, it is a matter of not being able to because of the new charges. I can understand that there is a cost but lets be real here $99.00 times the number of members well exceeds what the cost would be to keep this site going. That is an excess profit going to the site owners and is hard to justify to established members, esp since they had already paid for a lifetime membership. Also, I had intended to make a donation when my taxes came, however, after being forced to, I decided it wasn't worth it. It becomes a matter of prinicples. (2008-05-07 21:01:21.663442) #163814

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#8225 Re: New pricing plan? - #163814 I don't know where you got the idea that membership was $99.00. Maybe you should check it again. Membership starts at $20,for a a limited time and then you have $50, our regular price. (2008-05-08 01:18:24.896079) #47103

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#8226 Re: New pricing plan? - I got my information from this site where it had stated that after June the cost for membership would be 99.00 so hurry up and upgrade for 50.00 You can make all the changes to the screens you want and make it look as you wish but I know what I read back when I first started this tread and shortly afterwards. But there was a disclaimer encouraging everyone to hurry up and upgrade now at 50.00 before the cost went up to 99.00 starting June. (2008-05-08 08:46:10.393773) #163814

With all due respect...I see no where on your forum that states a fee is no longer charged...and that all members will receive their money back from your new pricing plan payments....or indeed from paying for a lifetime membership. Each forum posting is dated.

Also...you claimed today:

Quote
At the time that was posted the site was free Tsisqua and you know darn well it was.


And now please see:

Quote
#8217 Re: New pricing plan? - I rarely come here now but have to voice my objections to the new pricing plan. When I joined via Scotland Singles way back in 2003 I paid for lifetime membership. That is exactly what I expect to be provided. If Raj wants to change the rules now I expect a refund of my membership payment. (2008-04-23 10:35:37.327965) #103350

Can you explain this? Or explain why I myself was asked for a membership fee? Or all your other members from as far back as you'd like to go? I do still have the emails to prove this...and will post them if necessary.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: frederica on June 15, 2008, 11:22:22 pm
Would you PLEASE take this fight somewhere else. Last time I will ask.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Lonefeather on June 16, 2008, 12:44:05 am
I will admit, tensions are high and many are wording thier posts in a manner that proves to be the case.However,the truth that has been proven within these posts is being over looked it seems to me.Why are we attacking eachother?

This is the frauds thread...and fraud has been exposed...the proof is there for all to read.Tsissy has given us all evidence to back her words.Rq is allowed to out right call her a liar without anwering any one question that was asked.Fredrica...you banned Tsissy from posting, have you also banned RQ?I see Tsissy backing her words with proof, as I also see not one of her questions being truthfully answered as to how all of the "donations" given to TA can be accounted for.TA claims to be a free site and yet the price to become a star member is ever rising.This makes no sense to me.

I thought the purpose of NAFPS was to expose these issues and to investigate them.I understand that both sides must be investigated out of all fairness, but in my opinion, what is going on here is unfair.Is this site run by Natives?Would someone please clear this up...for I am confused!
Lonefeather
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: frederica on June 16, 2008, 01:10:14 am
Really, to my knowledge no one has been banned.  This same argument has been going on for several months.  I asked them to take their fight elsewhere.  That argument serves no purpose. It is never ending. One opinion against another.  I have yet to see the files that claim corruptiion. It is just another Internet Intertribal culture group that seems to be run by people from India. It looks like a business. If you do not like an Internet group you are involved in, you simply get out, quit.  Most die a natural death anyway. Why keep ruminating about i? Never jump to conclusions.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 16, 2008, 08:08:46 am
Quote
Posted by: frederica  Posted on: Yesterday at 06:10:14 pm 
Insert Quote 
Really, to my knowledge no one has been banned.  This same argument has been going on for several months.  I asked them to take their fight elsewhere.  That argument serves no purpose. It is never ending. One opinion against another.  I have yet to see the files that claim corruptiion. It is just another Internet Intertribal culture group that seems to be run by people from India. It looks like a business. If you do not like an Internet group you are involved in, you simply get out, quit.  Most die a natural death anyway. Why keep ruminating about i? Never jump to conclusions.

That's fine...and you are entitled to your opinion as are we...we've taken the matter elsewhere now, to those who are actually concerned about this and who believe in doing the right thing about such frauds...not picking and chosing whats important....frauds are frauds...and fakes are fakes...and I know these people will get the job done...afterall...they've many years of experience of dealing with Native Injustice, successfully I might add...and are well know for their work...they clearly see there is a huge issue with regards to TA and monies being taken in under false pretenses..and have been watching this thread a while now, not to mention others..Oh...and the IRS are looking into this FYI. I wont post about it here again....it will be dealt with away from here....with native people...since its evidently a native concern.

With Respect,

Tsissy
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: wredgranny on June 18, 2008, 03:53:22 am
"Really, to my knowledge no one has been banned.  This same argument has been going on for several months.  I asked them to take their fight elsewhere.  That argument serves no purpose. It is never ending. One opinion against another.  I have yet to see the files that claim corruptiion. It is just another Internet Intertribal culture group that seems to be run by people from India. It looks like a business. If you do not like an Internet group you are involved in, you simply get out, quit.  Most die a natural death anyway. Why keep ruminating about i? Never jump to conclusions."

 The very IMPORTANT point,Fredica is it is a group own by "India" Peoples,NOT any of the Nations of Turtle Island. I went there to ask a simple question in their "chat",and was deeply insulted,spoke to with great disrespect,asked if I would "like" to be made "India" Indian by "injection" by one the males there. Is that a way YOU would LIKE to be spoken to? You find that "cute",funny or appropriate way to speak to an older woman? Charge or no(and they WERE charging) to join,they CLAIMING it is a site for "Native Americans" and then treat them this way? IT IS NOT intertribal of OUR Nations,it is whites,and those from India,making fun of,an exploiting those of our Nations. IS this NAFPS,a place to bring our issues with being mistreated,cheated,and stolen from,or is it one more yonega group,who pick an choose the "battles" they think bring them excitement,and exposure,to make the Admin,look good?, Like you any of you truly CARE about our Peoples and their daily fight to survive,and be respected in our own country!
granny
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: frederica on June 18, 2008, 04:43:38 am
Shelia, I have no idea what the purpose of that site is, it looks more like a chat room.  Little of what I have seen is what I call fluffy and silly.  I do know I went and look when this first started and looked at their application. It listed the Nations, then stated check one. Went on to say if you do not have one, pick one. Well, that sent up red flags for me. I would have never joined to begin with. I could only guess. It's not a question of not believing, it's a question of are they frauds, I have never seen any real proof from files that they are expoiting people for money. They are not a 501c3. It looks like a business run by people fron India. But everyone keeps calling each other liars, and it is he said or she said against she said. I have a very good idea of what it is. Like many of the Internet groups, it starts well, then is taken over. There is a lot of disrespect on the Internet, and I see more and more of it, I not sure why. Now, if someone can give some concrete proof of exploitation, or misuse of Spirituality would be helpful. But people just can sit around and call each other liars without some concrete. Some people are just jerks, not what I call a true fraud. I don't disbelieve anyone, it's just not going anywere. I don't know these people's motives for trying to do a NDN group. It's not illegal to charge fees it they are asking  the group to pay for the server. Are they making a profit? Are they paying taxes?  Is this just another Internet Cultural Heritage group with a lot of non-Ndns? Can you prove they are ripping people off?  Concrete information is needed. Thanks.   
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Lonefeather on June 18, 2008, 05:11:45 am
Perhaps you Fredrica, are able to turn a blind eye to the actual proof of whats happening,but we are not for WE are Native...and we can read.And by you dancing around my questions and ignoring them, you HAVE answered them.I see no aurgument here...I see a fraud, a fake and many lies being exposed. And I see it being allowed to continue in a place where justice for Native peoples is merely claimed, instead of acted upon.Perhaps your solution to it all is to just "get out"and move on to another site.But, I can assure you that this is not our way.As long as non-natives are taking money from our people that is unaccounted for,and disrespecting our culture,traditions and our elders...a blind eye will not be turned.You are right however, it is a business and a shady one at that.It is unfortunate that you can not see any "corruption"...many others have have seen it with their own eyes.So, you will have to forgive those of us who refuse to move on and let it die on its own.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: frederica on June 18, 2008, 05:20:09 am
Then supply the information.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Lonefeather on June 18, 2008, 05:47:13 am
Tsissy has supplied information. The proof is there in between all the sarcasm and personal attacks.But there is no need for you to worry any longer with it...it will be handled now by our own people, as Tsissy has stated.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: frederica on June 18, 2008, 06:25:26 am
That's good news. I'm sure the Cherokees can manage it.  Tsissy is Keetoowah and I have faith in her. I don't know who you are. And I not going to argue. My opinion, to which I am entitled is that there is not enough information. If it was they would be down some time back. It's not just about arguing. But when people come in and start with an argument, I will generally try to stop it. Especially when it's been said before. It serves no purpose. We already believe what we are going to believe. The same argument is not going to change it.  I not going to let people just come in and start jumping on others out of the blue and everyone having to  spend their time defending themselves. It doesn't make sense to me. And that's all I have to say about this.
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: Tsisqua on June 18, 2008, 12:23:18 pm
Quote from Frederica

Quote
I'm sure the Cherokees can manage it.

Im sorry Frederica...I didn't say this was being handled by the "Cherokees"... I said another group is dealing with it...and just to clarify ...they are from all nations....I just wanted to make that clear...I didnt want people to be mislead in thinking the Keetoowah's have stepped in...lol...or the Cherokee Nation...because they haven't. Thanks.

Quote from Tsisqua

Quote
That's fine...and you are entitled to your opinion as are we...we've taken the matter elsewhere now, to those who are actually concerned about this and who believe in doing the right thing about such frauds...not picking and chosing whats important....frauds are frauds...and fakes are fakes...and I know these people will get the job done...afterall...they've many years of experience of dealing with Native Injustice, successfully I might add...and are well know for their work...they clearly see there is a huge issue with regards to TA and monies being taken in under false pretenses..and have been watching this thread a while now, not to mention others..Oh...and the IRS are looking into this FYI. I wont post about it here again....it will be dealt with away from here....with native people...since its evidently a native concern.

With Respect.

Tsissy
Title: Re: Tribal America
Post by: frederica on June 18, 2008, 12:27:48 pm
No problem, I misunderstood. Just didn't want you to have to put up with another fight.